Hi All,

Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
from a journal called:

Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/

http://download.cell.com/images/edim...sm/tem_888.pdf

A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
causing overeating and T2 to kick in.

Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
is fake.

-T

On 7/11/2013 8:24 PM, Todd wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
> from a journal called:
>
> Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
> http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/
>
> http://download.cell.com/images/edim...sm/tem_888.pdf
>
> A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
> body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
> the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
> do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
> properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
> causing overeating and T2 to kick in.
>
> Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
> that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
> to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
> is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
> is fake.
>
> -T

I dislike sugar sweetened beverages. No sweeteners in my coffee or tea.
Hate sugared sodas and punches. Sugar sets my teeth on edge.

I have been drinking diet soda since I was a teenager. That's over half
a century. Went through all the different types of sweeteners that were
on or off the market. I down between 3 and 5 cans of Coke Zero a day and
have been for years. Before Coke Zero it was Diet Coke. Before that it
was Tab.

According to that article, I should be a T2 by now, but my BG is perfect
and and I am not overweight.

My thyroid condition is from radiation side effects. Otherwise my
metabolism is in good working order despite all that diet soda.

--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

On 07/11/2013 07:12 PM, Janet Wilder wrote:
> On 7/11/2013 8:24 PM, Todd wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
>> from a journal called:
>>
>> Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
>> http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/
>>
>> http://download.cell.com/images/edim...sm/tem_888.pdf
>>
>>
>> A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
>> body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
>> the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
>> do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
>> properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
>> causing overeating and T2 to kick in.
>>
>> Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
>> that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
>> to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
>> is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
>> is fake.
>>
>> -T
>
> I dislike sugar sweetened beverages. No sweeteners in my coffee or tea.
> Hate sugared sodas and punches. Sugar sets my teeth on edge.
>
> I have been drinking diet soda since I was a teenager. That's over half
> a century. Went through all the different types of sweeteners that were
> on or off the market. I down between 3 and 5 cans of Coke Zero a day and
> have been for years. Before Coke Zero it was Diet Coke. Before that it
> was Tab.
>
> According to that article, I should be a T2 by now, but my BG is perfect
> and and I am not overweight.
>
> My thyroid condition is from radiation side effects. Otherwise my
> metabolism is in good working order despite all that diet soda.
>

Hi Janet,

That is why it is called an "opinion piece". A very
"learned" opinion piece, but still an opinion piece.

The idea was to let folks know why artificial sweeteners
are "suspect". The guy still has to prove his assertions.

Mainly, I wanted folks to know that the "assertion" was
that the body started to think that real stuff wasn't.

-T

Todd > wrote:
: Hi All,

: Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
: from a journal called:

: Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
: http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/

: http://download.cell.com/images/edim...sm/tem_888.pdf

: A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
: body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
: the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
: do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
: properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
: causing overeating and T2 to kick in.

: Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
: that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
: to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
: is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
: is fake.

: -T

I didn't read it, for various vision reasons, bu does Stevia do or not do
the same thing of tricking the body into thinking it is getting sugar,
etc? It most liekly is the sweetmess pf tehtaste that is the problem, not
its artificiality . the Stevia is also an artificial sugar as it is
someting pretending to be a sugar that is not(no calories, no carbs) so if
the non-nutritive(better word for the general catgory) sweetener fools the
body into thinking it is gettign sugar, thusr eleasing insuin, etc, then
Stevia is just as guilty.

Wendy

On 07/11/2013 07:58 PM, W. Baker wrote:
> Todd > wrote:
> : Hi All,
>
> : Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
> : from a journal called:
>
> : Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
> : http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/
>
> : http://download.cell.com/images/edim...sm/tem_888.pdf
>
> : A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
> : body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
> : the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
> : do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
> : properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
> : causing overeating and T2 to kick in.
>
> : Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
> : that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
> : to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
> : is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
> : is fake.
>
> : -T
>
> I didn't read it, for various vision reasons, bu does Stevia do or not do
> the same thing of tricking the body into thinking it is getting sugar,
> etc? It most liekly is the sweetmess pf tehtaste that is the problem, not
> its artificiality . the Stevia is also an artificial sugar as it is
> someting pretending to be a sugar that is not(no calories, no carbs) so if
> the non-nutritive(better word for the general catgory) sweetener fools the
> body into thinking it is gettign sugar, thusr eleasing insuin, etc, then
> Stevia is just as guilty.
>
> Wendy
>

Hi Wendy,

I have read in several places that Stevia did trigger
inappropriately. But, the sources did not reference
their statements, so ...

"Apparently" (note the weasel word), stevia is seen
as just another food by the body.

Here is an nice article on stevia (which does "not"
answer your question):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevia

-T

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 02:58:13 +0000 (UTC)
"W. Baker" > wrote:

> Todd > wrote:
> : Hi All,
>
> : Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
> : from a journal called:
>
> : Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
> : http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/
>
> :
> http://download.cell.com/images/edim...sm/tem_888.pdf
>
> : A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
> : body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
> : the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
> : do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
> : properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
> : causing overeating and T2 to kick in.
>
> : Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
> : that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
> : to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
> : is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
> : is fake.
>
> : -T
>
> I didn't read it, for various vision reasons, bu does Stevia do or
> not do the same thing of tricking the body into thinking it is
> getting sugar, etc? It most liekly is the sweetmess pf tehtaste that
> is the problem, not its artificiality . the Stevia is also an
> artificial sugar as it is someting pretending to be a sugar that is
> not(no calories, no carbs) so if the non-nutritive(better word for
> the general catgory) sweetener fools the body into thinking it is
> gettign sugar, thusr eleasing insuin, etc, then Stevia is just as
> guilty.
>
> Wendy

I think that is probably right. Think about fructose. It is the
sweetest of the common sugars, but it provides no rush of glucose
into the blood. Instead it must be processed by the liver where
it generally ends up as fat. So we get an insulin response from
fructose, but no matching increase in glucose. Some people develop
hypos from this, and many more have to be careful about the
liver fat.


--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

This our health guru named Dr. Richard Becker. He ranks all artificial sweeteners in the same class as high fructose corn syrup..hydrogenated vegetable oils..sugar and MSG as being highly detrimental to good health. This is one of his spiels on anti oxidants but he also does a great hatchet job on the artificial sweeteners. Try to watch his TV show if you get a chance.
Dr. Becker Lists Antioxidant Sources - Your Health TV - YouTube

On 07/12/2013 11:02 AM, bigwheel wrote:
> This our health guru named Dr. Richard Becker. He ranks all artificial
> sweeteners in the same class as high fructose corn syrup..hydrogenated
> vegetable oils..sugar and MSG as being highly detrimental to good
> health. This is one of his spiels on anti oxidants but he also does a
> great hatchet job on the artificial sweeteners. Try to watch his TV show
> if you get a chance.
> 'Dr. Becker Lists Antioxidant Sources - Your Health TV - YouTube'
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LiifoVzSf0)

Thank you!

I do love my colored vegi's. If you buy your eggplant
before its gets too big, you can eat the skins too.
Lots of vits in the skin.

-T

On 07/12/2013 07:28 AM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 02:58:13 +0000 (UTC)
> "W. Baker" > wrote:
>
>> Todd > wrote:
>> : Hi All,
>>
>> : Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
>> : from a journal called:
>>
>> : Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
>> : http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/
>>
>> :
>> http://download.cell.com/images/edim...sm/tem_888.pdf
>>
>> : A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
>> : body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
>> : the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
>> : do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
>> : properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
>> : causing overeating and T2 to kick in.
>>
>> : Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
>> : that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
>> : to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
>> : is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
>> : is fake.
>>
>> : -T
>>
>> I didn't read it, for various vision reasons, bu does Stevia do or
>> not do the same thing of tricking the body into thinking it is
>> getting sugar, etc? It most liekly is the sweetmess pf tehtaste that
>> is the problem, not its artificiality . the Stevia is also an
>> artificial sugar as it is someting pretending to be a sugar that is
>> not(no calories, no carbs) so if the non-nutritive(better word for
>> the general catgory) sweetener fools the body into thinking it is
>> gettign sugar, thusr eleasing insuin, etc, then Stevia is just as
>> guilty.
>>
>> Wendy
>
> I think that is probably right. Think about fructose. It is the
> sweetest of the common sugars, but it provides no rush of glucose
> into the blood. Instead it must be processed by the liver where
> it generally ends up as fat. So we get an insulin response from
> fructose, but no matching increase in glucose. Some people develop
> hypos from this, and many more have to be careful about the
> liver fat.

Here is a chart that shows glucose and fructose metabolism
and how they interact. (They interact A LOT!)

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...1/89/figure/F1

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 17:17:32 -0700
Todd > wrote:

> On 07/12/2013 07:28 AM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 02:58:13 +0000 (UTC)
> > "W. Baker" > wrote:
> >
> >> Todd > wrote:
> >> : Hi All,
> >>
> >> : Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
> >> : from a journal called:
> >>
> >> : Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
> >> : http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/
> >>
> >> :
> >> http://download.cell.com/images/edim...sm/tem_888.pdf
> >>
> >> : A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
> >> : body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
> >> : the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
> >> : do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
> >> : properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
> >> : causing overeating and T2 to kick in.
> >>
> >> : Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
> >> : that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
> >> : to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
> >> : is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
> >> : is fake.
> >>
> >> : -T
> >>
> >> I didn't read it, for various vision reasons, bu does Stevia do or
> >> not do the same thing of tricking the body into thinking it is
> >> getting sugar, etc? It most liekly is the sweetmess pf tehtaste
> >> that is the problem, not its artificiality . the Stevia is also an
> >> artificial sugar as it is someting pretending to be a sugar that is
> >> not(no calories, no carbs) so if the non-nutritive(better word for
> >> the general catgory) sweetener fools the body into thinking it is
> >> gettign sugar, thusr eleasing insuin, etc, then Stevia is just as
> >> guilty.
> >>
> >> Wendy
> >
> > I think that is probably right. Think about fructose. It is the
> > sweetest of the common sugars, but it provides no rush of glucose
> > into the blood. Instead it must be processed by the liver where
> > it generally ends up as fat. So we get an insulin response from
> > fructose, but no matching increase in glucose. Some people
> > develop hypos from this, and many more have to be careful about the
> > liver fat.
>
> Here is a chart that shows glucose and fructose metabolism
> and how they interact. (They interact A LOT!)
>
> http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...1/89/figure/F1

Yup. That is the sort of thing I am trying to make sense of.
Similar charts in wikipedia under "fructose_metabolism" and
"glucose_metabolism". Notice that fructose and glucose both
connect directly to "extrahepatic metabolism". That means
they are used directly outside the liver. What this doesn't
say is that fructose is used by the testes in making sperm.
Glucose powers everything else. The dotted line from fructose
over toward glycogen is only active when the liver needs to
make more glycogen. So most of the fructose ends up as
lipoprotein (VLDL) before it is sent back into the blood.
These are blobs of fat. Some of the fructose does end up
in the glucose pathway converted into pyruvate and powering
the Krebs cycle, but this is all going on inside the liver.
Most glucose is never absorbed by the liver, but is directly
metabolized elsewhere.



--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 17:17:32 -0700
Todd > wrote:

> Here is a chart that shows glucose and fructose metabolism
> and how they interact. (They interact A LOT!)
>
> http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...1/89/figure/F1

I've already commented once on this chart, but I'd like to
add some context.

The chart shows interactions of glucose and fructose inside
the liver only. Probably there is some text that goes along
with it that would make this clear. The metabolism inside
the muscles, the brain, the reproductive organs, the pancreas
and other organs is different. A complete chart would be
at least ten times as complicated. There really should be
a circle around the central parts showing which reactions
take place in the liver. Galactose is another important
sugar metabolized by the liver that is completely missing
here.

Each of those arrows represents the action of an enzyme
listed in the caption underneath. These enzymes are
specified in our DNA, and their expression can also
be switched on and off by environmental factors. There
are hundreds of these enzymes that vary between individuals.
So each of us metabolizes sugars in a slightly different
way.

--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

In article >,
Trawley Trash > wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 17:17:32 -0700
> Todd > wrote:
>
> > On 07/12/2013 07:28 AM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> > > On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 02:58:13 +0000 (UTC)
> > > "W. Baker" > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Todd > wrote:
> > >> : Hi All,
> > >>
> > >> : Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
> > >> : from a journal called:
> > >>
> > >> : Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
> > >> : http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/
> > >>
> > >> :
> > >> http://download.cell.com/images/edim...ism/tem_888.pd
> > >> f
> > >>
> > >> : A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
> > >> : body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
> > >> : the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
> > >> : do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
> > >> : properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
> > >> : causing overeating and T2 to kick in.
> > >>
> > >> : Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
> > >> : that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
> > >> : to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
> > >> : is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
> > >> : is fake.
> > >>
> > >> : -T
> > >>
> > >> I didn't read it, for various vision reasons, bu does Stevia do or
> > >> not do the same thing of tricking the body into thinking it is
> > >> getting sugar, etc? It most liekly is the sweetmess pf tehtaste
> > >> that is the problem, not its artificiality . the Stevia is also an
> > >> artificial sugar as it is someting pretending to be a sugar that is
> > >> not(no calories, no carbs) so if the non-nutritive(better word for
> > >> the general catgory) sweetener fools the body into thinking it is
> > >> gettign sugar, thusr eleasing insuin, etc, then Stevia is just as
> > >> guilty.
> > >>
> > >> Wendy
> > >
> > > I think that is probably right. Think about fructose. It is the
> > > sweetest of the common sugars, but it provides no rush of glucose
> > > into the blood. Instead it must be processed by the liver where
> > > it generally ends up as fat. So we get an insulin response from
> > > fructose, but no matching increase in glucose. Some people
> > > develop hypos from this, and many more have to be careful about the
> > > liver fat.
> >
> > Here is a chart that shows glucose and fructose metabolism
> > and how they interact. (They interact A LOT!)
> >
> > http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...1/89/figure/F1
>
> Yup. That is the sort of thing I am trying to make sense of.
> Similar charts in wikipedia under "fructose_metabolism" and
> "glucose_metabolism". Notice that fructose and glucose both
> connect directly to "extrahepatic metabolism". That means
> they are used directly outside the liver. What this doesn't
> say is that fructose is used by the testes in making sperm.
> Glucose powers everything else. The dotted line from fructose
> over toward glycogen is only active when the liver needs to
> make more glycogen. So most of the fructose ends up as
> lipoprotein (VLDL) before it is sent back into the blood.
> These are blobs of fat. Some of the fructose does end up
> in the glucose pathway converted into pyruvate and powering
> the Krebs cycle, but this is all going on inside the liver.
> Most glucose is never absorbed by the liver, but is directly
> metabolized elsewhere.

VLDL correlates more closely to CVD than does LDL.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg>

Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>

Guess the Eyetalian part of the family tree is not large enough to develop a taste for eggplant. Never even tasted one till I was fully grown. They always looked sorta weird.

On 07/14/2013 08:38 PM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 17:17:32 -0700
> Todd > wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2013 07:28 AM, Trawley Trash wrote:
>>> On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 02:58:13 +0000 (UTC)
>>> "W. Baker" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Todd > wrote:
>>>> : Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> : Here is a great opinion piece on artificial sweeteners
>>>> : from a journal called:
>>>>
>>>> : Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism
>>>> : http://www.cell.com/trends/endocrinology-metabolism/
>>>>
>>>> :
>>>> http://download.cell.com/images/edim...sm/tem_888.pdf
>>>>
>>>> : A quick summary: artificial sweeteners initially trick the
>>>> : body into reacting as if something sweet is entering. Then
>>>> : the body gets wise to the trick and stops. Then when you
>>>> : do eat something sweet or carbie, the body doesn't react
>>>> : properly. And the satiation response doesn't kick in,
>>>> : causing overeating and T2 to kick in.
>>>>
>>>> : Basically, the criticism of artificial sweeteners is
>>>> : that body gets wise to them and doesn't react appropriately
>>>> : to the real stuff. Not that the body thinks the fake stuff
>>>> : is real, but that the body starts to think the real stuff
>>>> : is fake.
>>>>
>>>> : -T
>>>>
>>>> I didn't read it, for various vision reasons, bu does Stevia do or
>>>> not do the same thing of tricking the body into thinking it is
>>>> getting sugar, etc? It most liekly is the sweetmess pf tehtaste
>>>> that is the problem, not its artificiality . the Stevia is also an
>>>> artificial sugar as it is someting pretending to be a sugar that is
>>>> not(no calories, no carbs) so if the non-nutritive(better word for
>>>> the general catgory) sweetener fools the body into thinking it is
>>>> gettign sugar, thusr eleasing insuin, etc, then Stevia is just as
>>>> guilty.
>>>>
>>>> Wendy
>>>
>>> I think that is probably right. Think about fructose. It is the
>>> sweetest of the common sugars, but it provides no rush of glucose
>>> into the blood. Instead it must be processed by the liver where
>>> it generally ends up as fat. So we get an insulin response from
>>> fructose, but no matching increase in glucose. Some people
>>> develop hypos from this, and many more have to be careful about the
>>> liver fat.
>>
>> Here is a chart that shows glucose and fructose metabolism
>> and how they interact. (They interact A LOT!)
>>
>> http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...1/89/figure/F1
>
> Yup. That is the sort of thing I am trying to make sense of.
> Similar charts in wikipedia under "fructose_metabolism" and
> "glucose_metabolism". Notice that fructose and glucose both
> connect directly to "extrahepatic metabolism". That means
> they are used directly outside the liver. What this doesn't
> say is that fructose is used by the testes in making sperm.
> Glucose powers everything else. The dotted line from fructose
> over toward glycogen is only active when the liver needs to
> make more glycogen. So most of the fructose ends up as
> lipoprotein (VLDL) before it is sent back into the blood.
> These are blobs of fat. Some of the fructose does end up
> in the glucose pathway converted into pyruvate and powering
> the Krebs cycle, but this is all going on inside the liver.
> Most glucose is never absorbed by the liver, but is directly
> metabolized elsewhere.

It is a cleaver piece of "reverse engineering". What is missing is
what are the sensors, what are they looking for, what is the control
system trying to maintain, what is the high and low margins of how
far the control system can track, why does it choose to go one path
one time and another the next. Basically, our current understanding
is as thought looking through a glass dimly.

And, I would not think that there is enough inulin in a stevia
packet to throw your fructose too far off. If you were using
inulin as a straight sweetener, then, it would be another subject.
remember that the sugar in fruit and vegetables is a dehydrate
of fructose and glucose (frustose + glucose - water). You get
a lot more fructose eating a (ripe) tomato.



and the other another time.

On 07/15/2013 02:21 PM, bigwheel wrote:
> Guess the Eyetalian part of the family tree is not large enough to
> develop a taste for eggplant. Never even tasted one till I was fully
> grown. They always looked sorta weird.

Hi Big,

My "Eyetalian part" would be my mom's side. Yours?

There is a difference between fully grown and too old.
If you get them from a local farm, ask the farmer and
he will show you (as one did me) how to pick them.
Be careful, the buzzards have thorns! (At my
local farm, they go so quick, they never get too old.)

The local farms said they would have some in a week
or two. I will be begging for advice on how to
cook them when that happens. I got the pressure
cooker down, but not the frying.

Oh ya, and egg plant tastes like heck (not the
actual word I was thinking) when it is not grown
properly and sits on a shelf forever. Find a CSA farm.

-T

Maybe next year, I will try growing them.

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:23:05 -0700
Todd > wrote:

> And, I would not think that there is enough inulin in a stevia
> packet to throw your fructose too far off. If you were using
> inulin as a straight sweetener, then, it would be another subject.
> remember that the sugar in fruit and vegetables is a dehydrate
> of fructose and glucose (frustose + glucose - water). You get
> a lot more fructose eating a (ripe) tomato.

You are describing the disaccharide sucrose which digests into
half fructose and half glucose. The sugars in fruits and vegetables
are not all sucrose. Some have more fructose than glucose when
they are ripe. Fruits are being bred for this property because
the extra sweetness sells. Apples, pears, grapes, and pineapples
fall into this category.

I can't eat tomatoes. I would only need half a gram of fructose to
see a problem, and one woman I met online says she has to keep her
daughter down to 9 mg. Then there is the question of whether some
bad effects are due to sweetness itself rather than any particular
sweetener. It is all very complicated.

I merely wanted to point out that inulin can be a problem, but I
am still working by trial and error. The advice I get from the
hfiinfo forum seems to be right on, but much of it defies my
understanding. Wheat is not OK, but shredded wheat is OK. Weird,
but it seems to be true. What can I say?


--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

On 07/17/2013 08:13 PM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> You are describing the disaccharide sucrose which digests into
> half fructose and half glucose. The sugars in fruits and vegetables
> are not all sucrose. Some have more fructose than glucose when
> they are ripe. Fruits are being bred for this property because
> the extra sweetness sells. Apples, pears, grapes, and pineapples
> fall into this category.
>
> I can't eat tomatoes. I would only need half a gram of fructose to
> see a problem, and one woman I met online says she has to keep her
> daughter down to 9 mg. Then there is the question of whether some
> bad effects are due to sweetness itself rather than any particular
> sweetener. It is all very complicated.

Dear Mr. Trash,

Yes, I think I am funny! :-)

Sounds like there may be something wrong with your liver.
(Probably mine too.) If allowed to heal, the liver has
marvelous healing properties.

Foods (no one get ****ed at me, this is on topic!), also
called "traditional medicine", that have known healing
properties for the liver would be

Milk Thistle
Dandelion Root
Prickly Pear

Traditional medicine and modern medicine act differently.
Traditional medicine has side benefits. (For instance,
Hawthorn Berry helps calm an asthma attack, Milk Thistle
helps heal hepatitis damage, Prickly pear lowers your
blood sugar.)

Modern medicine has side effects. So trying the above would
only cost you a few dollars and would have very little
likely hood of any side effects. So win - draw.
Not win - loose.

-T

> I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

Why would I want too? As for me, I will babble on and
on and on and on ...

By any chance is "Trawley Trash" a reference us "riff raff"
would miss in some classic novel everyone wants to have read,
by no one wants to have actually read? :-)

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 07/17/2013 08:13 PM, Trawley Trash wrote:
>> You are describing the disaccharide sucrose which digests into
>> half fructose and half glucose. The sugars in fruits and vegetables
>> are not all sucrose. Some have more fructose than glucose when
>> they are ripe. Fruits are being bred for this property because
>> the extra sweetness sells. Apples, pears, grapes, and pineapples
>> fall into this category.
>>
>> I can't eat tomatoes. I would only need half a gram of fructose to
>> see a problem, and one woman I met online says she has to keep her
>> daughter down to 9 mg. Then there is the question of whether some
>> bad effects are due to sweetness itself rather than any particular
>> sweetener. It is all very complicated.
>
> Dear Mr. Trash,
>
> Yes, I think I am funny! :-)
>
> Sounds like there may be something wrong with your liver.
> (Probably mine too.) If allowed to heal, the liver has
> marvelous healing properties.
>
> Foods (no one get ****ed at me, this is on topic!), also
> called "traditional medicine", that have known healing
> properties for the liver would be
>
> Milk Thistle
> Dandelion Root
> Prickly Pear
>
> Traditional medicine and modern medicine act differently.
> Traditional medicine has side benefits. (For instance,
> Hawthorn Berry helps calm an asthma attack, Milk Thistle
> helps heal hepatitis damage, Prickly pear lowers your
> blood sugar.)
>
> Modern medicine has side effects. So trying the above would
> only cost you a few dollars and would have very little
> likely hood of any side effects. So win - draw.
> Not win - loose.
>
> -T
>
>> I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.
>
> Why would I want too? As for me, I will babble on and
> on and on and on ...
>
> By any chance is "Trawley Trash" a reference us "riff raff"
> would miss in some classic novel everyone wants to have read,
> by no one wants to have actually read? :-)

Uh... Herbs and stuff have side effects too. In many respects they are
really no better than the prescribed stuff. For instance, red rice yeast
extract is a statin. Saint John's Wort can interfere with birth control and
other meds. These are not things to be taken lightly.

In article >, Todd >
wrote:

> On 07/17/2013 08:13 PM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> > You are describing the disaccharide sucrose which digests into
> > half fructose and half glucose. The sugars in fruits and vegetables
> > are not all sucrose. Some have more fructose than glucose when
> > they are ripe. Fruits are being bred for this property because
> > the extra sweetness sells. Apples, pears, grapes, and pineapples
> > fall into this category.
> >
> > I can't eat tomatoes. I would only need half a gram of fructose to
> > see a problem, and one woman I met online says she has to keep her
> > daughter down to 9 mg. Then there is the question of whether some
> > bad effects are due to sweetness itself rather than any particular
> > sweetener. It is all very complicated.
>
> Dear Mr. Trash,
>
> Yes, I think I am funny! :-)
>
> Sounds like there may be something wrong with your liver.
> (Probably mine too.) If allowed to heal, the liver has
> marvelous healing properties.
>
> Foods (no one get ****ed at me, this is on topic!),

You seem to underestimate the self-importance of some people.

> also
> called "traditional medicine", >

or nutraceuticals

> that have known healing
> properties for the liver would be
>
> Milk Thistle
Milk thistle seeds contain a bioflavonoid complex known as silymarin.
Milk thistle seeds can be ground and eaten or made into a tea. Use 12-15
grams/day. Leaves, and roots are of little use. Its roots are similar to
salsify when boiled. The flowering heads before opening are similar to
artichokes, but a lot smaller, and the leaves, while edible are a pain
to deal with, because of their thorns. Do not grow in high nitrogen soil.

> Dandelion Root
Dandelion is commonly used as a food. The leaves are used in salads and
teas, while the roots are often used as a coffee substitute. Unopened
flower buds can be used in fritters[183] and they can also be preserved
in vinegar and used like capers. The plant is high in vitamins and
minerals. Unfortunately for Todd, the root has a turnip like flavor.

> Prickly Pear
Too wide a net Todd. Only one of about 200 species of Opuntia, also
known as nopales or paddle cactus will suppress a post prandial b.g.
rise, and that is O. streptacantha. It does this by blocking the
breakdown of starches, and disaccharides to glucose. In contrast, O.
megacantha may have toxic effects on the kidney. Other than that, it
seems to be a healthful food with vitamines, minerals, and fiber.

>
> Traditional medicine and modern medicine act differently.
> Traditional medicine has side benefits. (For instance,
> Hawthorn Berry helps calm an asthma attack, Milk Thistle
> helps heal hepatitis damage, Prickly pear lowers your
> blood sugar.)

Todd, you are being wildly inaccurate. There many types of Hawthorne,
and Prickly Pear (Opuntia), they vary in their degree of healthiness as
nutraceuticals. While milk thistle is a decorative plant, and edible,
it's the seeds that are important to your liver. That said, you may be
better off going to an herbal shop, and just buy the standardized
extracts.
>
> Modern medicine has side effects. So trying the above would
> only cost you a few dollars and would have very little
> likely hood of any side effects. So win - draw.
> Not win - loose.
>
> -T
>
> > I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.
>
> Why would I want too? As for me, I will babble on and
> on and on and on ...

Actually, Todd seems to be a founding member of On-N-On-N-On. ;O)
>
> By any chance is "Trawley Trash" a reference us "riff raff"
> would miss in some classic novel everyone wants to have read,
> by no one wants to have actually read? :-)

or related to Trish Trash?
--
Palestinian Child Detained
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg>

Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>

In article
>,
Billy > wrote:

> In article >, Todd >
> wrote:
>
> > On 07/17/2013 08:13 PM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> > > You are describing the disaccharide sucrose which digests into
> > > half fructose and half glucose. The sugars in fruits and vegetables
> > > are not all sucrose. Some have more fructose than glucose when
> > > they are ripe. Fruits are being bred for this property because
> > > the extra sweetness sells. Apples, pears, grapes, and pineapples
> > > fall into this category.
> > >
> > > I can't eat tomatoes. I would only need half a gram of fructose to
> > > see a problem, and one woman I met online says she has to keep her
> > > daughter down to 9 mg. Then there is the question of whether some
> > > bad effects are due to sweetness itself rather than any particular
> > > sweetener. It is all very complicated.
> >
> > Dear Mr. Trash,
> >
> > Yes, I think I am funny! :-)
> >
> > Sounds like there may be something wrong with your liver.
> > (Probably mine too.) If allowed to heal, the liver has
> > marvelous healing properties.
> >
> > Foods (no one get ****ed at me, this is on topic!),
>
> You seem to underestimate the self-importance of some people.
>
> > also
> > called "traditional medicine", >
>
> or nutraceuticals
>
> > that have known healing
> > properties for the liver would be
> >
> > Milk Thistle
> Milk thistle seeds contain a bioflavonoid complex known as silymarin.
> Milk thistle seeds can be ground and eaten or made into a tea. Use 12-15
> grams/day. Leaves, and roots are of little use. Its roots are similar to
> salsify when boiled. The flowering heads before opening are similar to
> artichokes, but a lot smaller, and the leaves, while edible are a pain
> to deal with, because of their thorns. Do not grow in high nitrogen soil.
>
> > Dandelion Root
> Dandelion is commonly used as a food. The leaves are used in salads and
> teas, while the roots are often used as a coffee substitute. Unopened
> flower buds can be used in fritters[183] and they can also be preserved
> in vinegar and used like capers. The plant is high in vitamins and
> minerals. Unfortunately for Todd, the root has a turnip like flavor.
>
> > Prickly Pear
> Too wide a net Todd. Only one of about 200 species of Opuntia, also
> known as nopales or paddle cactus will suppress a post prandial b.g.
> rise, and that is O. streptacantha. It does this by blocking the
> breakdown of starches, and disaccharides to glucose. In contrast, O.
> megacantha may have toxic effects on the kidney. Other than that, it
> seems to be a healthful food with vitamines, minerals, and fiber.
>
> >
> > Traditional medicine and modern medicine act differently.
> > Traditional medicine has side benefits. (For instance,
> > Hawthorn Berry helps calm an asthma attack, Milk Thistle
> > helps heal hepatitis damage, Prickly pear lowers your
> > blood sugar.)
>
> Todd, you are being wildly inaccurate. There many types of Hawthorne,
> and Prickly Pear (Opuntia), they vary in their degree of healthiness as
> nutraceuticals. While milk thistle is a decorative plant, and edible,
> it's the seeds that are important to your liver. That said, you may be
> better off going to an herbal shop, and just buy the standardized
> extracts.
> >
> > Modern medicine has side effects. So trying the above would
> > only cost you a few dollars and would have very little
> > likely hood of any side effects. So win - draw.
> > Not win - loose.
> >
> > -T
> >
> > > I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.
> >
> > Why would I want too? As for me, I will babble on and
> > on and on and on ...
>
> Actually, Todd seems to be a founding member of On-N-On-N-On. ;O)
> >
> > By any chance is "Trawley Trash" a reference us "riff raff"
> > would miss in some classic novel everyone wants to have read,
> > by no one wants to have actually read? :-)
>
> or related to Trish Trash?

I forgot to mention that you may want to try "bitter melon" as well. I
presume that you have the heat for it, if you live in Nevada. It grows
on a trellis.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg>

Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 21:52:09 -0700
Todd > wrote:

> On 07/17/2013 08:13 PM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> Sounds like there may be something wrong with your liver.
> (Probably mine too.) If allowed to heal, the liver has
> marvelous healing properties.
>
> Foods (no one get ****ed at me, this is on topic!), also
> called "traditional medicine", that have known healing
> properties for the liver would be
>
> Milk Thistle
> Dandelion Root
> Prickly Pear

Yes, I am beginning to think the problem may actually
be in the liver. I have been studying HFI (hereditary
fructose intolerance), and that is caused by low levels
of a liver enzyme called aldolase-B. My ELISA blood
allergy test showed reactions to every sweet thing
I eat. When I switched from apples (strong reaction)
to pears (no reaction but rarely eaten), I developed an
allergy to pears. Somehow fructose is causing new
IgG allergies to develop. Along with that I do
not seem to be able to metabolize fructose; it makes
me very sleepy.

With HFI the symptom used for diagnosis is low blood
sugar (hypos) that can occur a day or so after eating
fructose. So I began to wonder what would happen if
a person with type II was also HFI. The BG may
read normal or even high during a "hyoo". Type II *masks*
HFI so that it will never be diagnosed. Genetic studies show
that the frequency of the genetic markers is much
higher than the rate of diagnosis. In fact HFI
seems to be about 99 percent underdiagnosed. So I
suspect a deficiency in some liver enzymes
may be part of the problem.

I started on milk thistle a month ago. It has been a
traditional remedy for so long that I do not worry about
it. Since I changed several things at once, I
can't be sure it is this supplement, but I am gaining
strength while holding my weight down. FBG is up a bit
into the 90s, but I think that is the result of
my experiments trying to eat bread.

Now I am going back to potatoes only for my
starches. I eat around 300 grams of them per
day, so the diet that works for me is not low
carb but low fructose. Wheat and other grasses
contain starch-like polymers called fructans.
Inulin is one of them. Generally they are counted
as fiber on food labels, but gut bacteria can
break them down and release fructose.

> Traditional medicine and modern medicine act differently.
> Traditional medicine has side benefits. (For instance,
> Hawthorn Berry helps calm an asthma attack, Milk Thistle
> helps heal hepatitis damage, Prickly pear lowers your
> blood sugar.)
>
> Modern medicine has side effects. So trying the above would
> only cost you a few dollars and would have very little
> likely hood of any side effects. So win - draw.
> Not win - loose.

I have already begun taking milk thistle. Mainstream
medicine failed me, so now I take
what is useful wherever I find it.

> > I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.
>
> Why would I want too? As for me, I will babble on and
> on and on and on ...
>
> By any chance is "Trawley Trash" a reference us "riff raff"
> would miss in some classic novel everyone wants to have read,
> by no one wants to have actually read? :-)

There is no literary reference that I am aware of. I was
living in a trailer at the time I made it up. I like to
use nicks that no one will mistake for a real name. However
I soon received an email from someone in the Philippines
who claimed to know me.

--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

On 07/21/2013 12:50 PM, Billy wrote:
>> also
>> >called "traditional medicine", >
> or nutraceuticals
>

My understanding of "nutraceuticals" is that they are
refined natural products and not the unrefined stuff
that herbalists usually use. Herbalists use both.

This is why I like the phrase "Traditional Medicine".
It does not limit, vitamins, herbs, nutraceuticals,
etc..

Some nutraceuticals get a little too close to
pharmaceuticals, which can give anaphylactic shock.

I could be wrong now. (I am sure I will be told so,
if I am. Which is okay, as long as you are nice about
it)

-T

On 07/21/2013 04:35 PM, Billy wrote:
> Todd would have made a stronger argument that allopathic medicine rarely
> appeals to our Epicurean senses the way nutraceuticals can.

I stand corrected!

>
> For example:
> Bitter Melon Delight
>
> Ingredients:
> 1 Bitter Melon (seeded and sliced)


I can not find the carb count on this on USDA or
Self. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Can you send me a link?



> 2 Eggs
> 3-4 pieces of Bacon

Your the man!

> ? tsp. Garlic

A lot. (Proof God loves us.)

> 1 tsp. thin Soy Sauce

Uh oh. I have to stay away from Soy Sauce. What
seasoning would you sub? Paprika has a dark
smoky flavor, maybe? Add more bacon, it is smoky?

> Pepper
> Directions:
> Beat eggs and stir fry with Bitter Melon, bacon, garlic, and soy sauce.
> Add a dash of pepper to taste.
> This is a traditional Thai dish.


>It can also be prepared without bacon

NOOOOOOO!!!

> or
>
> Bitter Melon Gazpacho
>
> Serves: 20
> Submitted by: Andi Sutton
>
> Ingredients:
> 4 large cans v-8 (or 6 - 8 lg. tomatoes)
> 2 sticks celery
> 2 red peppers: diced
> 1 green pepper: diced
> 2 yellow peppers: diced
> 2 cucumbers: diced
> 1 Bitter Melon: cored and diced
> 2 bunches scallions: diced
> 2 bunches cilantro: diced (Substitute parsley)
> Vinegar to taste
> Tabasco sauce to taste (you could just add hot peppers)
> Optional: carrots, garlic, and turmeric to taste
> Directions:
> Wash and prepare all vegetables. Blend ? the diced vegetables in a
> blender with the tomato juice. Stir in remaining vegetables and add salt
> and tobasco to taste. Chill overnight. Ladle in to Bitter Melon cups,
> sprinkle with extra cilantro and serve.
>
> w/
>
> Rhubarb pie,
>
> or
>
> prunella and mint tea.
>
> Allopathic medicine, eat your heart out.

Hear! Hear!

-T

On 07/21/2013 12:50 PM, Billy wrote:
>>> > >I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.
>> >
>> >Why would I want too? As for me, I will babble on and
>> >on and on and on ...
> Actually, Todd seems to be a founding member of On-N-On-N-On. ;O)


"On-N-On-N-On"!!! Why I, I ,I, You take my breath away!
Take it back. For the love of all that is good and decent,
take it back!!! "On-N-On-N-On" Never, I tell you, Never!

Okay, stop tapping your fingers and giving me incredulous
looks. I can see them all the way through the Internet!
Even I am not an endless source of this flowery bull s---.
(Perhaps. Maybe. Don't count on it.) You are still
tapping! Don't think I don't see you!

Why would anyone, *especially Billy*, say such a thing!
KIDS THESE DAYS!!!


Okay, you got me dead to rights. Membership applications
are now accepted "On-N-On-N-On Foundation":

-- no memberships dues

-- you have to be nice, especially when you disagree,

-- your have to admit to burning food at least once
in your life,

-- you have admit to having used a bit too much
garlic time once your life as well,

-- AND, no cracking jokes about the other person's
cooking screw ups/debacles, unless, of course,
the jokes are funny

-T

T2's these days!

On 07/21/2013 04:01 PM, Billy wrote:
>> Traditional medicine and modern medicine act differently.
>> > >Traditional medicine has side benefits. (For instance,
>> > >Hawthorn Berry helps calm an asthma attack, Milk Thistle
>> > >helps heal hepatitis damage, Prickly pear lowers your
>> > >blood sugar.)
>>
>>Todd, you are being wildly inaccurate. There many types of Hawthorne,
>>and Prickly Pear (Opuntia), they vary in their degree of healthiness as
>>nutraceuticals. While milk thistle is a decorative plant, and edible,
>>it's the seeds that are important to your liver. That said, you may be
>>better off going to an herbal shop, and just buy the standardized
>>extracts.
>> > >

Yes, of course. And, seek profession advice first.

Use the Hawthorne that the herbalists use (Crataegus spp).

https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swan...50-mg-120-caps

https://www.swansonvitamins.com/natu...1-fl-oz-liquid

This is the famous American Herbalist, Dr. Christopher's formula,
but it contains honey:
http://www.vitacost.com/christophers...rup-16-fl-oz-1


I use "Opuntia ficus-indica - leaf" (Nopal, Pinkly Pear):
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swan...50-mg-180-caps

Opuntia streptacantha Lemaire works too.
Here is a good double blind on Opuntia streptacantha Lemai
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3276479

Thank you for the heads up. I will make sure I say
exactly which herb I am speaking of next time.

-T

On 07/21/2013 04:35 PM, Billy wrote:
> Todd would have made a stronger argument that allopathic medicine rarely
> appeals to our Epicurean senses the way nutraceuticals can.
>
> For example:
> Bitter Melon Delight

And using the scientific method (double blind):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21211558

J Ethnopharmacol. 2011 Mar 24;134(2):422-8. doi:
10.1016/j.jep.2010.12.045. Epub 2011 Jan 4.
Hypoglycemic effect of bitter melon compared with metformin in newly
diagnosed type 2 diabetes patients.
Fuangchan A, Sonthisombat P, Seubnukarn T, Chanouan R, Chotchaisuwat P,
Sirigulsatien V, Ingkaninan K, Plianbangchang P, Haines ST.
Source

Department of Pharmacy Practice, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences,
Naresuan University, Muang, Phitsanulok 65000, Thailand.
Abstract
ETHNOPHARMACOLOGICAL RELEVANCE:

Bitter melon (Momordica charantia L.) has been widely used as an
traditional medicine treatment for diabetic patients in Asia. In vitro
and animal studies suggested its hypoglycemic activity, but limited
human studies are available to support its use.
AIM OF STUDY:

This study was conducted to assess the efficacy and safety of three
doses of bitter melon compared with metformin.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:

This is a 4-week, multicenter, randomized, double-blind, active-control
trial. Patients were randomized into 4 groups to receive bitter melon
500 mg/day, 1,000 mg/day, and 2,000 mg/day or metformin 1,000 mg/day.
All patients were followed for 4 weeks.
RESULTS:

There was a significant decline in fructosamine at week 4 of the
metformin group (-16.8; 95% CI, -31.2, -2.4 μmol/L) and the bitter melon
2,000 mg/day group (-10.2; 95% CI, -19.1, -1.3 μmol/L). Bitter melon 500
and 1,000 mg/day did not significantly decrease fructosamine levels
(-3.5; 95% CI -11.7, 4.6 and -10.3; 95% CI -22.7, 2.2 μmol/L, respectively).
CONCLUSIONS:

Bitter melon had a modest hypoglycemic effect and significantly reduced
fructosamine levels from baseline among patients with type 2 diabetes
who received 2,000 mg/day. However, the hypoglycemic effect of bitter
melon was less than metformin 1,000 mg/day.

"Todd" > wrote in message
...
> On 07/21/2013 12:50 PM, Billy wrote:
>>> also
>>> >called "traditional medicine", >
>> or nutraceuticals
>>
>
> My understanding of "nutraceuticals" is that they are
> refined natural products and not the unrefined stuff
> that herbalists usually use. Herbalists use both.
>
> This is why I like the phrase "Traditional Medicine".
> It does not limit, vitamins, herbs, nutraceuticals,
> etc..
>
> Some nutraceuticals get a little too close to
> pharmaceuticals, which can give anaphylactic shock.
>
> I could be wrong now. (I am sure I will be told so,
> if I am. Which is okay, as long as you are nice about
> it)

Nutraceuticals is a rather meaningless term. Where is Ted Rosenberg when
you need him? He'd be all over this!

Julie Bove > wrote:

Julie,

I woudl assume that when todd talks of "ratpoison" he is referrig to
warfarin, w tricky blood thinner taken by people who have suffered
congestive heart failue, are in danger of blod clots or have atrial
fibrilation, which also canled tothrowing off blood clots that can ladge
in the ehet, lungs or even the brain leading to strokes. My husband wsa
on this for about 3 years. It is also used as a rat poison as it can make
the blood so thin that it leads to internat bleeding adn death. That is
why peole on this drug get teted every week or two to make sure their
dosage ic correct adn the blood not too thick or thin.

It can be a life saver, but , as I said , is tricky. they now have
developed about 2 or 3 new drugs that can be used without the need for the
frequent blood test, but they are quite new , havingbeen introduced only
this past school year.

Wendy

W. Baker wrote:
> Julie Bove > wrote:
>
> Julie,
>
> I woudl assume that when todd talks of "ratpoison" he is referrig to
> warfarin, w tricky blood thinner taken by people who have suffered
> congestive heart failue, are in danger of blod clots or have atrial
> fibrilation, which also canled tothrowing off blood clots that can
> ladge in the ehet, lungs or even the brain leading to strokes. My
> husband wsa on this for about 3 years. It is also used as a rat
> poison as it can make the blood so thin that it leads to internat
> bleeding adn death. That is why peole on this drug get teted every
> week or two to make sure their dosage ic correct adn the blood not
> too thick or thin.
>
Oh. My friend has atrial fib but is not on a blood thinner yet.

> It can be a life saver, but , as I said , is tricky. they now have
> developed about 2 or 3 new drugs that can be used without the need
> for the frequent blood test, but they are quite new , havingbeen
> introduced only this past school year.

Yes. I have seen the commercials.

On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 19:44:55 -0700
Todd > wrote:

> Bitter melon had a modest hypoglycemic effect and significantly
> reduced fructosamine levels from baseline among patients with type 2
> diabetes who received 2,000 mg/day. However, the hypoglycemic effect
> of bitter melon was less than metformin 1,000 mg/day.

Generally I take 100000 to 200000 milligrams of bitter melon.
Chicken soup with bitter melon and potato/mung bean noodles is to
die for. No bacon needed.


--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

In article >, Todd >
wrote:

> On 07/21/2013 12:50 PM, Billy wrote:
> >> also
> >> >called "traditional medicine", >
> > or nutraceuticals
> >
>
> My understanding of "nutraceuticals" is that they are
> refined natural products and not the unrefined stuff
> that herbalists usually use. Herbalists use both.
>
> This is why I like the phrase "Traditional Medicine".
> It does not limit, vitamins, herbs, nutraceuticals,
> etc..
>
> Some nutraceuticals get a little too close to
> pharmaceuticals, which can give anaphylactic shock.
>
> I could be wrong now. (I am sure I will be told so,
> if I am. Which is okay, as long as you are nice about
> it)
>
> -T

Dictionary
nutraceutical
noun
a food containing health-giving additives and having medicinal benefit.
----

Wikipeda
Nutraceutical, a portmanteau of the words ³nutrition² and
³pharmaceutical² and was coined by Dr. Stephen L. DeFelice, founder and
chairman of the Foundation of Innovation Medicine (FIM), Crawford, New
Jersey.[1] The term is applied to products that range from isolated
nutrients, dietary supplements and herbal products, specific diets,
genetically modified food, and processed foods such as cereals, soups,
and beverages.

------

I used the word nutraceutical in the dictionary sense, since this a.f.d.
is food group.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg>

Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>

In article >,
Trawley Trash > wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 19:44:55 -0700
> Todd > wrote:
>
> > Bitter melon had a modest hypoglycemic effect and significantly
> > reduced fructosamine levels from baseline among patients with type 2
> > diabetes who received 2,000 mg/day. However, the hypoglycemic effect
> > of bitter melon was less than metformin 1,000 mg/day.
>
> Generally I take 100000 to 200000 milligrams of bitter melon.
> Chicken soup with bitter melon and potato/mung bean noodles is to
> die for. No bacon needed.

How many micro liters of soup is that?

Since this is a culinary group, and not a science lab, you probably
should have said 3 1/2 oz. to 7 oz. of bitter melon just to keep the
appropriate motif.

I couldn't find your recipe, so here's a different one.

Bitter gourd, Carrot, Mushroom Chicken Soup Recipe

Cook Time
Prep time: 15 min
Cook time: 2 hours
Ready in: 2 hours 15 min
Yields: Serves 5 people

Ingredients
50g Dried Mushroom
100g bitter gourd
100g chicken
50g carrot
10g fresh ginger
Seasonings
1 tsp of salt
Pinch of black pepper powder

Methods
1. Soak the dried mushroom in hot water for 15 minutes to soften it.
Rinse it thoroughly again with cold water.
2. Cut the bitter gourd into half and remove the internal seeds. Then,
cut the bitter gourd into square shape. Rub the cut bitter gourd with
plenty of salt and leave it for about half an hour and then rinse the
salt off. This will reduce bitterness of the bitter gourd.
3. Clean the chicken, remove the skin, and cut it into small pieces.
4. Peel the carrot skin and cut it into square pieces.
5. Peel the ginger skin and cut it into slices.
6. Boil about 3 cups of water in a pot.
7. Add in chicken and bitter gourd and boil at medium fire for 5 minutes.
8. Pour the chicken and bitter gourd soup into a slow cooker.
9. Add in mushroom, carrot and ginger.
10. Simmer the soup for 1.5 hour.
11. Add in salt and pepper for taste.
And it is ready for serving.

(I'd probably add a little poultry seasoning to taste)
1 teaspoon dried thyme
1/2 teaspoon dried sage
1/2 teaspoon dried rosemary
--
Palestinian Child Detained
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg>

Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>

On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 22:30:06 -0700
Billy > wrote:

> In article >,
> Trawley Trash > wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 19:44:55 -0700
> > Todd > wrote:
> >
> > > Bitter melon had a modest hypoglycemic effect and significantly
> > > reduced fructosamine levels from baseline among patients with
> > > type 2 diabetes who received 2,000 mg/day. However, the
> > > hypoglycemic effect of bitter melon was less than metformin 1,000
> > > mg/day.
> >
> > Generally I take 100000 to 200000 milligrams of bitter melon.
> > Chicken soup with bitter melon and potato/mung bean noodles is to
> > die for. No bacon needed.
>
> How many micro liters of soup is that?

Depends on how much water I add.

> Since this is a culinary group, and not a science lab, you probably
> should have said 3 1/2 oz. to 7 oz. of bitter melon just to keep the
> appropriate motif.

> I couldn't find your recipe, so here's a different one.

Sorry. I have a kitchen scale and use grams.

I don't use recipes, but I put this together out of a need to consume
leftover chicken stock. This is what I remember doing. I use
an induction hotplate. Onions are not good for fructose
intolerance, but small amounts that are thoroughly cooked seem
to be OK for me. It certainly did not take two hours to make:

500 gm chicken stock (approximate)
1/2 medium onion, sliced
150 gm cubed chicken breast
1 bitter melon (about 150 gm)
25 gm sliced fresh ginger
1 small lime
1 packet noodles (sweet potato, mung bean, or potato).
additional leftover veggies (I think I added shredded cabbage).

Boil some water, pour over noodles, and cover.

Set induction burner to 260 degrees F.

Melt a tablespoon of coconut oil in a skillet.

Add sliced onion and stir so it is coated with oil.

Add chicken and a little water.

Cover and stir-fry 2-3 minutes.

Add bitter melon and ginger. More water as needed.

Cover and continue to stir-fry.

Drain hot water from noodles and replace with cold water.

Add chicken stock and leftover veggies.

Add 1/2 teaspoon (2.5 ml) turmeric.

Add 1 teaspoon gluten-free and sugar-free tamari.

Bring to boil and remove from heat.

Drain and add cold noodles.

Squeeze lime into soup.

Add salt to taste and perhaps a couple of slices from a jalapeno
pepper. Bean sprouts are also good at this point.

This is a full meal for me.

--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

In article >,
Trawley Trash > wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 22:30:06 -0700
> Billy > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Trawley Trash > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 19:44:55 -0700
> > > Todd > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bitter melon had a modest hypoglycemic effect and significantly
> > > > reduced fructosamine levels from baseline among patients with
> > > > type 2 diabetes who received 2,000 mg/day. However, the
> > > > hypoglycemic effect of bitter melon was less than metformin 1,000
> > > > mg/day.
> > >
> > > Generally I take 100000 to 200000 milligrams of bitter melon.
> > > Chicken soup with bitter melon and potato/mung bean noodles is to
> > > die for. No bacon needed.
> >
> > How many micro liters of soup is that?
>
> Depends on how much water I add.
>
> > Since this is a culinary group, and not a science lab, you probably
> > should have said 3 1/2 oz. to 7 oz. of bitter melon just to keep the
> > appropriate motif.
>
> > I couldn't find your recipe, so here's a different one.
>
> Sorry. I have a kitchen scale and use grams.
>
> I don't use recipes, but I put this together out of a need to consume
> leftover chicken stock. This is what I remember doing. I use
> an induction hotplate. Onions are not good for fructose
> intolerance, but small amounts that are thoroughly cooked seem
> to be OK for me. It certainly did not take two hours to make:
>
> 500 gm chicken stock (approximate)
> 1/2 medium onion, sliced
> 150 gm cubed chicken breast
> 1 bitter melon (about 150 gm)
> 25 gm sliced fresh ginger
> 1 small lime
> 1 packet noodles (sweet potato, mung bean, or potato).
> additional leftover veggies (I think I added shredded cabbage).
>
> Boil some water, pour over noodles, and cover.
>
> Set induction burner to 260 degrees F.
>
> Melt a tablespoon of coconut oil in a skillet.
>
> Add sliced onion and stir so it is coated with oil.
>
> Add chicken and a little water.
>
> Cover and stir-fry 2-3 minutes.
>
> Add bitter melon and ginger. More water as needed.
>
> Cover and continue to stir-fry.
>
> Drain hot water from noodles and replace with cold water.
>
> Add chicken stock and leftover veggies.
>
> Add 1/2 teaspoon (2.5 ml) turmeric.
>
> Add 1 teaspoon gluten-free and sugar-free tamari.
>
> Bring to boil and remove from heat.
>
> Drain and add cold noodles.
>
> Squeeze lime into soup.
>
> Add salt to taste and perhaps a couple of slices from a jalapeno
> pepper. Bean sprouts are also good at this point.
>
> This is a full meal for me.

A little bitter melon here, a little blueberry and hawthorn leaf there,
and some stevia to sweeten the pot (non-combustible, of course), and
it's all good.

Thanks for the recipe.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg>

Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>

Never been to an egg plant farm. Think our horticulture folks are concentrating on growing guv'ment subsidized corn so Alfgore and Obie can waste it making ethanol to damage our cars. Wacky tobaccy seems to be other big cash crop in these parts.

In article >,
bigwheel > wrote:

> Todd;1849654 Wrote:
> > On 07/15/2013 02:21 PM, bigwheel wrote:-
> > Guess the Eyetalian part of the family tree is not large enough to
> > develop a taste for eggplant. Never even tasted one till I was fully
> > grown. They always looked sorta weird.-
> >
> > Hi Big,
> >
> > My "Eyetalian part" would be my mom's side. Yours?
> >
> > There is a difference between fully grown and too old.
> > If you get them from a local farm, ask the farmer and
> > he will show you (as one did me) how to pick them.
> > Be careful, the buzzards have thorns! (At my
> > local farm, they go so quick, they never get too old.)
> >
> > The local farms said they would have some in a week
> > or two. I will be begging for advice on how to
> > cook them when that happens. I got the pressure
> > cooker down, but not the frying.
> >
> > Oh ya, and egg plant tastes like heck (not the
> > actual word I was thinking) when it is not grown
> > properly and sits on a shelf forever. Find a CSA farm.
> >
> > -T
> >
> > Maybe next year, I will try growing them.
>
> Never been to an egg plant farm. Think our horticulture folks are
> concentrating on growing guv'ment subsidized corn so Alfgore and Obie
> can waste it making ethanol to damage our cars. Wacky tobaccy seems to
> be other big cash crop in these parts.

The Emerald Triangle is just above me (Mendocino, and Humbolt Counties).
There isn't any income tax filed by growers, but it has been estimated
that the marijuana harvest is worth more than the California wine
harvest ($3 billion in 2012).

Funny how the government subsidizes crops that Cargill, and Archer
Daniels Midland uses, but not so much for vegetables that could keep
Americans healthy.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg>

Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>

On 07/22/2013 08:24 AM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> potato/mung bean noodles

Potatoes and beans? How do you get away with all the carbs
in this? Are you T2 or T1?

On 07/22/2013 08:38 AM, Billy wrote:
> In article >, Todd >
> wrote:
>
>> On 07/21/2013 12:50 PM, Billy wrote:
>>>> also
>>>>> called "traditional medicine", >
>>> or nutraceuticals
>>>
>>
>> My understanding of "nutraceuticals" is that they are
>> refined natural products and not the unrefined stuff
>> that herbalists usually use. Herbalists use both.
>>
>> This is why I like the phrase "Traditional Medicine".
>> It does not limit, vitamins, herbs, nutraceuticals,
>> etc..
>>
>> Some nutraceuticals get a little too close to
>> pharmaceuticals, which can give anaphylactic shock.
>>
>> I could be wrong now. (I am sure I will be told so,
>> if I am. Which is okay, as long as you are nice about
>> it)
>>
>> -T
>
> Dictionary
> nutraceutical
> noun
> a food containing health-giving additives and having medicinal benefit.
> ----
>
> Wikipeda
> Nutraceutical, a portmanteau of the words ³nutrition² and
> ³pharmaceutical² and was coined by Dr. Stephen L. DeFelice, founder and
> chairman of the Foundation of Innovation Medicine (FIM), Crawford, New
> Jersey.[1] The term is applied to products that range from isolated
> nutrients, dietary supplements and herbal products, specific diets,
> genetically modified food, and processed foods such as cereals, soups,
> and beverages.
>
> ------
>
> I used the word nutraceutical in the dictionary sense, since this a.f.d.
> is food group.
>

Thank you for the update!

On 07/22/2013 08:47 AM, Billy wrote:
>> ask to traditional medicine. For instance, I use Opuntia
>> >for my NIDDM T2. It will not lower my Blood Glucose too
>> >low. It helps my liver (which just may be the cause of
>> >my T2). It provides food value. It is fun to cook and make
>> >snot jokes about.
>> >
>> >And, it doesn't matter how much I eat. NO OVERDOSE! It
>> >is not a poison. (Can you say that for modern medicines?
> ERROR, Will Robinson:
> O. megacantha raised concern about toxic effects on the kidney and
> extracts of O. streptacantha may inhibit alpha-glucosidase activity.
>
> Pompe Disease: a disorder in which alpha-glucosidase is deficient.
>
> While alpha-glucosidase inhibitors, are used as anti-diabetic drugs in
> combination with other anti-diabetic drugs, that is not to say that you
> can't over indulge. It's not fool-proof.
>

Hi Billy,

Thank you for the heads up. You must be careful refining herbs.
I can eat as much unrefined as I want. The danger amount
of the refined stuff is far, far more than I'd ever consume.
1000 mg of Met twice a day sends me down the hall to the
point that I can not go to work. 1000 is a standard dosage
too, not an overdose.

So, you are correct, it is all a matter of proportion.
Chemical drugs are a lot more dangerous than (non-toxic)
herbs. You really, really have to overdue it with
herbs, to the point you'd explode, to hurt yourself.

Where is the world do you buy your bitter melon?

-T

In article >, Todd >
wrote:

> On 07/22/2013 08:47 AM, Billy wrote:
> >> ask to traditional medicine. For instance, I use Opuntia
> >> >for my NIDDM T2. It will not lower my Blood Glucose too
> >> >low. It helps my liver (which just may be the cause of
> >> >my T2). It provides food value. It is fun to cook and make
> >> >snot jokes about.
> >> >
> >> >And, it doesn't matter how much I eat. NO OVERDOSE! It
> >> >is not a poison. (Can you say that for modern medicines?
> > ERROR, Will Robinson:
> > O. megacantha raised concern about toxic effects on the kidney and
> > extracts of O. streptacantha may inhibit alpha-glucosidase activity.
> >
> > Pompe Disease: a disorder in which alpha-glucosidase is deficient.
> >
> > While alpha-glucosidase inhibitors, are used as anti-diabetic drugs in
> > combination with other anti-diabetic drugs, that is not to say that you
> > can't over indulge. It's not fool-proof.
> >
>
> Hi Billy,
>
> Thank you for the heads up. You must be careful refining herbs.
> I can eat as much unrefined as I want. The danger amount
> of the refined stuff is far, far more than I'd ever consume.
> 1000 mg of Met twice a day sends me down the hall to the
> point that I can not go to work. 1000 is a standard dosage
> too, not an overdose.
>
> So, you are correct, it is all a matter of proportion.
> Chemical drugs are a lot more dangerous than (non-toxic)
> herbs. You really, really have to overdue it with
> herbs, to the point you'd explode, to hurt yourself.
>
> Where is the world do you buy your bitter melon?
>
> -T

I don't. I'm growing it, but I see that our local Asian Market sells it
in season. If you are in Reno you might check for an Asian market in
Sacramento, or if you are in Vegas, try L.A. They may be able to ship to
you.

Moderate Interaction
Be cautious with this combination
€ Medications for diabetes (Antidiabetes drugs) interacts with BITTER
MELON
Bitter melon can decrease blood sugar levels. Diabetes medications are
also used to lower blood sugar. Taking bitter melon along with diabetes
medications might cause your blood sugar to be too low. Monitor your
blood sugar closely. The dose of your diabetes medication might need to
be changed.

Some medications used for diabetes include glimepiride (Amaryl),
glyburide (DiaBeta, Glynase PresTab, Micronase), insulin, pioglitazone
(Actos), rosiglitazone (Avandia), chlorpropamide (Diabinese), glipizide
(Glucotrol), tolbutamide (Orinase), and others.


BITTER MELON Dosing
The appropriate dose of bitter melon depends on several factors such as
the user's age, health, and several other conditions. At this time there
is not enough scientific information to determine an appropriate range
of doses for bitter melon. Keep in mind that natural products are not
always necessarily safe and dosages can be important. Be sure to follow
relevant directions on product labels and consult your pharmacist or
physician or other healthcare professional before using.
--
Palestinian Child Detained
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSzH38jYcg>

Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>