So for the last few months I've been making sourdough with Carl's
starter. It is, as far as I can tell, an exceedingly well-behaved
starter... the only trouble is, the bread I've been churning out is a
little boring. Frankly, there's barely any taste difference between it
and regular white bread. Tasty white bread, sure, but the sourness is
just not there. I've messed with salt percentage, changed my flour, and
screwed with the different times, all to little avail. Vigorous and
foolproof as the Carl's has been, I think I might need a new starter
culture.

I looked around a couple of stores and found Kazhakistani and Lesothan
starter cultures and suchlike, and am absolutely befuddled by the
variety available. So I'll throw it out to y'all-- what moderately sour
and interesting-tasting cultures would you recommend, and where would
you suggest getting them?

Ben

"Ben Sunshine-Hill" > wrote in message oups.com...

> ... what moderately sour and interesting-tasting cultures would you
> recommend, and where would you suggest getting them?

www.sourdo.com seems to have the largest variety. Why don't you
order a bunch of cultures from them, compare them, and post your
results?

--
Dicky

Hmmm... it does sound tempting. But I fear that it would overtax me
financially, and I fear I don't have the experience or equipment as a
baker to do a sufficiently robust comparison to be useful to others. I
was more wondering which cultures people here have had the most success
with in the past (though I realize, of course, that if you ask ten
bakers you'll get twelve answers.)

Ben

Ben Sunshine-Hill wrote:

> .... So I'll throw it out to y'all-- what moderately sour and
> interesting-tasting cultures would you recommend, and where would you
> suggest getting them?

Maybe your question would be better asked as "Does anyone have
experience with Carl's starter and making it more sour?"

B/

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:42:51 -0800, Brian Mailman wrote:

> Ben Sunshine-Hill wrote:
>
>> .... So I'll throw it out to y'all-- what moderately sour and
>> interesting-tasting cultures would you recommend, and where would you
>> suggest getting them?
>
> Maybe your question would be better asked as "Does anyone have experience
> with Carl's starter and making it more sour?"
>
> B/

Yes, I got Carl's starter and my bread is sour. The starter is bubbly, I
feed it with wholemeal flour or strong white. The bread I produce by
making a sponge, after about 4h I make the dough (flour, sponge, salt, bit
of oil) and leave it overnight in the fridge. Next morning, or evening I
bake it, it is more sour if I wait until the evening.

JB

I got the SF starter from Ed Wood. I also think that my breads aren't
as sour as I'd like. The starter is working well. I've played around
with French, rye, wheat, white.
I did get a few of other starters from him but don't really want to
start them yet...not want to keep worrying about keeping them active,
not to mention filling my fridge with too many jars. I did dry active
SF starter and put it in a jar, just in case.


Ben Sunshine-Hill wrote:
> Hmmm... it does sound tempting. But I fear that it would overtax me
> financially, and I fear I don't have the experience or equipment as a
> baker to do a sufficiently robust comparison to be useful to others. I
> was more wondering which cultures people here have had the most success
> with in the past (though I realize, of course, that if you ask ten
> bakers you'll get twelve answers.)
>
> Ben

I've been lurking in this list for awhile, as well as reading the
archives, so I know the answer to that: "What do you mean, your Carl's
isn't sour!?" Some people seem to have no trouble with sourness at all,
others cannot get it sour even after lengthy Q&A sessions. I've tried
most of the suggestions given on the list... in particular, I've let
the starter and/or dough sit for extremely long periods of time. I am,
of course, eager for any other suggestions.

Ben

Hello Ben & all;

"Ben Sunshine-Hill" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've been lurking in this list for awhile, as well as reading the
> archives, so I know the answer to that: "What do you mean, your
> Carl's
> isn't sour!?" Some people seem to have no trouble with sourness at
> all,
> others cannot get it sour even after lengthy Q&A sessions. I've
> tried
> most of the suggestions given on the list... in particular, I've
> let
> the starter and/or dough sit for extremely long periods of time. I
> am,
> of course, eager for any other suggestions.
Same here, Ben. I make great bread (if I do say-so
myself...(:-o)!)! The loft is everything one could hope for, and
the flavor (except for sour) is great. But there's just no "sour"
in it. I've used most of the starters being bandied about in this
group. And, as with yourself, I've tried most of the methods and
machinations discussed here. Nothing seems to work.

I'm more than willing to suggest that it's probably my methods that
are at the root of my failures in that specific area of SD baking.
But I've tried others and nothing seems to alter that outcome. Even
the "Acme" that everybody raves about the sour, didn't do it for me.
I've even grown a dozen or so using Samartha's methods. Nuttin'!

And no, I'm not looking for lemon or vinegar sour... I'm just
looking for the sour that I find in the breads I can get on the
wharf. And that, so far at least, has just eluded me.

I've got four different cultures going at the moment (and 3,
dehydrated and in the freezer). I'm just about to start feeding 'em
something other than the UB AP I've been feedin' 'em for years.
Something! Anything to change the balance...<big sigh!>

The plan at the moment is:
1) Thicken up the starter...less hydration. I'd been around 100% or
so.
2) Raise 'em on WW for a while.
3) Try 'em on rye.
4) Pour 'em all together and beat 'em to death with my
scale...(:-o)!

L8r all,
Dusty
San Jose, Ca.

>
> Ben
>

I have been using Ed Wood's instructions for liquid starter. When I
activate I fill the liquid starter (which is already at a 1/2 a quart
level) with warm water then split them into two 1 qt jars and let them
sit an hour. One goes in the fridge and the other I feed and let proof
for 12 hours. So, I've been effectively washing it every time I use
it. I had some as a sponge starter then changed to liquid. I have never
tried the dough ball method. Anyway, all may be here or there.

I grew up in SF Bay area and have yet to produce anything as pleasantly
sour as I recall Larabaru sourdough french bread. The breads are good
but not really sour.

Being new here I am unfamiliar with your abbreviations...UB...etc.

In the summer I tried making my own starter from rye/water. It seemed
more sour, but then I wasn't really great at being diligent with the
timing. I tried to bake a loaf and all I got was a dense brick that was
impossible to slice. The starter started to smell foul...so I tossed
it. Then got Ed's SF starter. I've been successfully turning out
sourdough for a few months now....albiet with little to no sour flavor.


I have found that I needed more flour than I had thought I needed for
the loaves to hold their shapes and rise well when left free form
without a bread pan.

I have wondered if it would help to add a little vinegar to the
dough...but I doubt they did that with the old sourdoughs in San
Francisco.

"Trix" > wrote in message oups.com...

> [ ... ]

> I have wondered if it would help to add a little vinegar to the
> dough...

That would be an act of desperation.

Frequently people who do not succeed in the straightforward way
start trying all kinds of stuff. Sometimes, after that, they publish
books or post elaborate web sites. Some even start schools.

The simple, largely unknown, fact of sourdough is that it takes a while
for sourdough to sour. The corollary ignorance is of the fact that it is
the dough that must sour, and not the preferment.

After that comes the need for optimally-developed dough -- it must
hold together for the requisite long rise, and survive any necessary abuses
(punchdowns, deflations, reformations) required to keep the rise under
control, and handing, including the flip-flops, slashes, shoves, and thermal
shocks that most people seem to feel are required.

Eventually there comes the awareness that following the usual instructions
does not produce the desired result. After that, the available instructions
grow even more vacuous and sophistic. Like putting vinegar in dough.

So, thanks for everything, Carl, but when it comes to sourdough for the
masses, you never got beyond the start.

--
Dicky

At the risk of offending those "know it alls", this neophyte would like
to know how to obtain wholemeal or strong white flour. I have seen and
used cornmeal but have yet to see wholemeal at my grocery store. Is
there another name for this or haven't I looked hard enough? To date I
have been using King Author's unbleached All Purpose. I would indeed
like to make more sour bread from Carl's starter - not to mention
pancakes as well, heh heh. dave

"dave" > wrote in message ups.com...

> At the risk of offending those "know it alls", this neophyte would like
> to know how to obtain wholemeal or strong white flour. I have seen and
> used cornmeal but have yet to see wholemeal at my grocery store.

It is offensive that your ignorance seems to implicate Carl. Did Carl ever
mention using cornmeal for bread? "Strong white flour" is not a usual
decryption in the land of Carl's origin (and demise) -- the usual term is
"bread flour"

> To date I have been using King Author's unbleached All Purpose.
> I would indeed like to make more sour bread from Carl's starter -
> not to mention pancakes as well, heh heh. dave

Stick with pancakes, dave -- heh heh! Leave out the soda for sour.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:> So, thanks for everything, Carl, but when it comes
to sourdough for the
> masses, you never got beyond the start.
>
> --
> Dicky

HI Dicky,

I had a quick look at Carl's site the other day your name is mentioned
there. What happened?

TG

> It is offensive that your ignorance seems to implicate Carl. Did Carl
> ever mention using cornmeal for bread? "Strong white flour" is not a
> usual decryption in the land of Carl's origin (and demise) -- the usual
> term is "bread flour"

In Britain bread flour is very often called 'strong flour', indicating a
higher than usual protein content (usually 12% or more).

JB

> wrote in message ps.com...
>
> > Dick Adams wrote: So, thanks for everything, Carl, but when it comes
> > to sourdough for the masses, you never got beyond the start.

> I had a quick look at Carl's site the other day your name is mentioned
> there. What happened?

What happened was this: Carl figured out a way to prepare a start that
always revived vigorously. Then he died, but some kind folks continued
sending out starts prepared in his way. No matter, some idiots take offense
that they cannot make bread with Carl's starts to suit their taste, and stupidly
complain about that in posts to this newsgroup.

> wrote in message ups.com...

> Someone was kind enough to send me a good selection of starter from
> SDI. I've had some for about a year all kept together in the same part
> of the fridge. They are all still quite different from each other and I
> haven't noticed any drift either.

I doubt if you're the kind of guy who notices much. What do you notice?
That they all sit there and look like wads of damp decrepit dough?

> wrote in message oups.com...

> > (I suspect there is more talk...

> You seem to do a lot of that Dicky : -)

I mince no words. You're an asshole! Why don't you go to rec.bodyparts.asshole
with the name ?

--
Dicky

Is Carl's starter the one that uses commercial yeast. I don't like
that idea. I would prefer starting from flour and water (possibly rain
water) and collect wild yeast from the air.

Anyway, Dicky, you seem to be coming off a bit harsh.

The last bread I made I let it proof 3 times after activating the
liquid starter.

OK, I will hold off trying vinegar...

As a newbie, how do you go about longer proofs and rises. I thought
you'd need to keep adding some water and flour each time. I didn't
think you could just punch down and re-rise the finished dough.

So, what is the procedure if we want to produce a more sour bread?

Please try to be a bit more patient with some of us newbies.

"Trix" > wrote in message ups.com...

> Is Carl's starter the one that uses commercial yeast.

That is well known to be a dark secret.

> OK, I will hold off trying vinegar...

Seems you are bending over to be conciliatory.

> I didn't think you could just punch down and re-rise the finished dough.

Punching is pretty violent. Maybe reform, reknead, stretch & fold, stuff
like that. Maybe one long rise. Depends.

> So, what is the procedure if we want to produce a more sour bread?

Extend rising over a longer period.

> Please try to be a bit more patient with some of us newbies.

I tried, but I can't. I did post a recipe. You could try searching billowy
sourdough. Actually, you could try to find the FAQs while you are at it.

--
Dicky

Trix wrote:

> Is Carl's starter the one that uses commercial yeast. I don't like
> that idea. I would prefer starting from flour and water (possibly rain
> water) and collect wild yeast from the air.
>
> Anyway, Dicky, you seem to be coming off a bit harsh.

I'm thinking Dicky's knowledge is way overshadowed by his arrogance.
Fortunately, my news reader has a jerk filter.

then how is it you are able to post?

dan w
"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> Trix wrote:
>
> > Is Carl's starter the one that uses commercial yeast. I don't like
> > that idea. I would prefer starting from flour and water (possibly rain
> > water) and collect wild yeast from the air.
> >
> > Anyway, Dicky, you seem to be coming off a bit harsh.
>
> I'm thinking Dicky's knowledge is way overshadowed by his arrogance.
> Fortunately, my news reader has a jerk filter.

Dick Adams wrote:
> > wrote in message ps.com...
> >
> > > Dick Adams wrote: So, thanks for everything, Carl, but when it comes
> > > to sourdough for the masses, you never got beyond the start.
>
> > I had a quick look at Carl's site the other day your name is mentioned
> > there. What happened?
>
> What happened was this: Carl figured out a way to prepare a start that
> always revived vigorously. Then he died, but some kind folks continued
> sending out starts prepared in his way. No matter, some idiots take offense
> that they cannot make bread with Carl's starts to suit their taste, and stupidly
> complain about that in posts to this newsgroup.
>
> > wrote in message ups.com...
>
> > Someone was kind enough to send me a good selection of starter from
> > SDI. I've had some for about a year all kept together in the same part
> > of the fridge. They are all still quite different from each other and I
> > haven't noticed any drift either.
>
> I doubt if you're the kind of guy who notices much. What do you notice?
> That they all sit there and look like wads of damp decrepit dough?
>
> > wrote in message oups.com...
>
> > > (I suspect there is more talk...
>
> > You seem to do a lot of that Dicky : -)
>
> I mince no words. You're an asshole! Why don't you go to rec.bodyparts.asshole
> with the name ?
>
> --
> Dicky

LOL, Oh Dicky you certainly don't mince words.

TG

dave wrote:
> At the risk of offending those "know it alls", this neophyte would like
> to know how to obtain wholemeal or strong white flour. I have seen and
> used cornmeal but have yet to see wholemeal at my grocery store. Is
> there another name for this or haven't I looked hard enough? To date I
> have been using King Author's unbleached All Purpose. I would indeed
> like to make more sour bread from Carl's starter - not to mention
> pancakes as well, heh heh. dave

Hi Dave,

Further to what Danube said.

In the UK Whole-wheat flour is called Wholemeal
AP flour is Plain flour
Bread flour is around 11% protein
Strong Bread Flour is towards 14%

TG

I have no clue why, but this recipe comes out sour for me ...
Sourdough Tile Bread
2 loaves

4 c. sourdough starter (removed from refrigerator the night before and
flour and water added)

3 1/2 c. flour

2 t. salt

1 T. buttermilk pd (opt)

2 t. sugar

2/5 c. water

2-3 T. olive oil



Mix and let rise. Punch out bubbles and form loaf, let rise. Preheat oven
to 350 degrees. Bake 30-40 minutes. I lined a small Corning dish with a
dish towel and let the bread rise in it. I took it out by lifting it out by
the towel, transferred it to one hand and quickly put it on the stone right
side up. I've also baked it in pans.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Delete the obvious to reply to me personally.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Lobo" > wrote in message
...
> I have no clue why, but this recipe comes out sour for me ...
> Sourdough Tile Bread
> 2 loaves
>
> 4 c. sourdough starter (removed from refrigerator the night before
and
> flour and water added)
>
> 3 1/2 c. flour
>
> 2 t. salt
>
> 1 T. buttermilk pd (opt)
>
> 2 t. sugar
>
> 2/5 c. water
>
> 2-3 T. olive oil
>
>
>
> Mix and let rise. Punch out bubbles and form loaf, let rise. Preheat
oven
> to 350 degrees. Bake 30-40 minutes. I lined a small Corning dish with a
> dish towel and let the bread rise in it. I took it out by lifting it out
by
> the towel, transferred it to one hand and quickly put it on the stone
right
> side up. I've also baked it in pans.

this looks like john's glop bread. do you follow his instructions, which
are much more complicated, or do you do just as you describe here? since
the hydration level is so high (100%+). how do you work with the dough?

dan w

"dan w" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lobo" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I have no clue why, but this recipe comes out sour for me ...
>> Sourdough Tile Bread
>> 2 loaves
>> 4 c. sourdough starter (removed from refrigerator the night before
> and
>> flour and water added)
>> 3 1/2 c. flour
>> 2 t. salt
>> 1 T. buttermilk pd (opt)
>> 2 t. sugar
>> 2/5 c. water
>> 2-3 T. olive oil
>> Mix and let rise. Punch out bubbles and form loaf, let rise. Preheat
> oven
>> to 350 degrees. Bake 30-40 minutes. I lined a small Corning dish with a
>> dish towel and let the bread rise in it. I took it out by lifting it out
> by
>> the towel, transferred it to one hand and quickly put it on the stone
> right
>> side up. I've also baked it in pans.
>
> this looks like john's glop bread. do you follow his instructions, which
> are much more complicated, or do you do just as you describe here? since
> the hydration level is so high (100%+). how do you work with the dough?
>
> dan w

Could be ... I got the recipe on the internet, but don't recall where. I
followed the instructions as described here once or twice. Now I put it in a
bread pan after kneading it in the KitchenAid just til it pulls away from
the bowl. When I form the loaves, I use a rolling pin with a sleeve on it
and use only enough flour to keep it from getting all sticky.
Lobo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Delete the obvious to reply to me personally.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~