Preserving (rec.food.preserving) Devoted to the discussion of recipes, equipment, and techniques of food preservation. Techniques that should be discussed in this forum include canning, freezing, dehydration, pickling, smoking, salting, and distilling.

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Old 26-04-2006, 01:03 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?

Hi everyone


I'm new to bottling, but it might solve one of lifes problems, so I'm
interested to try it. I really dont want to go out and buy a load of
the proper jars until I've tried it once to see if it is the solution.
Yes I've read the FAQ. Hence my probably predictable question: if I use
jam jars, sauce jars, etc for just the first run, what sort of failure
rate could I expect? A fair rate of failures to seal could be accepted
for the one test run.

Failure to seal is easy to spot on these jars, and I wouldnt let anyone
else have access to the jars, so I dont expect a safety problem.

Or is this a bad bad move?

thank you,


NT


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Old 26-04-2006, 01:49 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?


wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi everyone


I'm new to bottling, but it might solve one of lifes problems, so I'm
interested to try it. I really dont want to go out and buy a load of
the proper jars until I've tried it once to see if it is the solution.
Yes I've read the FAQ. Hence my probably predictable question: if I use
jam jars, sauce jars, etc for just the first run, what sort of failure
rate could I expect? A fair rate of failures to seal could be accepted
for the one test run.

Failure to seal is easy to spot on these jars, and I wouldnt let anyone
else have access to the jars, so I dont expect a safety problem.

Or is this a bad bad move?

thank you,


NT


I guess it would depend on what you mean by 'jam jars, sauce jars, etc'.
Some glass is not meant to be re- used in this way ie it cannot withstand
the pressure or the heat. And then there's the lid issue - how would you
cap the recycled jars?

So if I'm understanding your question - I would say buy new, proper
canning/bottling jars and recycle them as needed. Only the lids need to be
new every time, for a proper seal. It's a small price to pay for safety,

Kathi


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Old 26-04-2006, 04:32 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?

wrote:

Hi everyone
I'm new to bottling, but it might solve one of lifes problems, so I'm
interested to try it. I really dont want to go out and buy a load of
the proper jars until I've tried it once to see if it is the solution.
Yes I've read the FAQ. Hence my probably predictable question: if I use
jam jars, sauce jars, etc for just the first run, what sort of failure
rate could I expect? A fair rate of failures to seal could be accepted
for the one test run.
Failure to seal is easy to spot on these jars, and I wouldnt let anyone

else have access to the jars, so I dont expect a safety problem.
Or is this a bad bad move?
thank you,

NT


Are you planning on using boiling water bath (BWB) processing or pressure
canning? And if you don't like that, these same jars can be used in the
freezer.
What are you planning on canning/jarring? Jams, pickles & hi acid foods? or
peas, beans and roast beef stew, low acid stuff? If the jars don't seal in
an hour or two after processing, just plunk that one in the fridge. High
acid foods could probably be clean off old lid, put on new lid & reboil.
In several years of BWB processing, I've had only about 4 jars not seal
due to not cleaning the rims, lid/jar nick/malfunction or overfilling. When
y'all follow directions, lid failure is pretty rare. Very old lids might be
a fault. Like garage sales or Grandma's basement.
Here in the US, if you keep your eyes open you can find old unchipped
jars at estate sales, yard sales and thrift shops for about 25c each. New
ones are about twice that and up depending on size. And you can generally
get rid of them the same way if you don't like doing it. I expect it's the
same just about everywhere.
Let us know how you go on. Do you grow your own?
Edrena, faithful follower of St. Vinegrette



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Old 26-04-2006, 01:13 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?

wrote:
Hi everyone


I'm new to bottling, but it might solve one of lifes problems, so I'm
interested to try it. I really dont want to go out and buy a load of
the proper jars until I've tried it once to see if it is the solution.


Very wise!

Yes I've read the FAQ. Hence my probably predictable question: if I use
jam jars, sauce jars, etc for just the first run, what sort of failure
rate could I expect? A fair rate of failures to seal could be accepted
for the one test run.


Here in the UK we might have different meaning for the words and
different items on sale, so my answer to you is as follows:

1. Bottling here means preserving in jars bottles, and canning means
preserving in metal cans, so just to make sure
there's no mistake when I talk of bottling I mean preserving in jars
and bottles.

2. If you are pickling, that is preserving items in vinegar (such as
pickled onions, pickled eggs, etc), then you need a
vinegar which is 5% and up of acetic acid in the UK this is sold as
"pickling vinegar". If you have the correct vinegar you
will be well on your way to reduce failure. If using vinegar at all,
the lids of your bottles should be coated so that the
acid can't get at metal, or be made of glass or plastic. In this sort
of bottling, you should make sure that all your
intensils are rinsed in boiling water, and warmed jars rinsed out with
boiling water. Another way is to use campden
tablets dissolved in a mixture of water and lemon juice, which when
swirled round the jar or bottle and then rinsed
out with cold water, will further reduce failure.

3. If you are making chutney (which by definition includes vinegar) then
your jars will need to be heated in a low oven for
10 minutes or so before filling with hot chutney or they will break.

4. You can use jars which are used commercially for other things
(Slendasweet jars over here make the best pickling
jars), but bear in mind the PRINCIPLES when using them. Jars which have
been used for jam or fruit preserves (jam,
marmalade, etc.) often are used for filling with preserves (as many a
W.I. show will bear witness).

5. However, when using the jars for jams, marmalades, etc, I do not
trust the original lids and use waxed paper discs
over the fruit and cover the jar with cellophane. You can buy very
easily these 1lb and 2lb jam pot cover sets over
here. To see what I mean have a look at
http://www.thecookskitchen.com

6. Beg, borrow, buy a good book. I could suggest some UK ones, but your
local library can probably help you.

The answer is that failure rates are not very high at all AS LONG AS YOU
KEEP TO SCRUPULOUS CLEANLINESS WHEN MAKING PRESERVES and also that YOU
FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF PRESERVING. Once understood, you can
experiment a bit.

If you mean by failure that the taste of the preserve is not as you
would wish it....well, change something next time. Fruits and
vegetables do differ from batch to batch, and can even be affected by
the time to get to you or pesticides sprayed on them. The best way is
to get them off a local organic provider, or from your back garden!

HTH
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Old 26-04-2006, 06:02 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?

In the US, there is a company marketing spaghetti sauce in jars labeled
"Mason". I have used them without a problem for boiling-water bath (BWB)
processing, using standard canning lids. They are a little short of a pint
or quart, but work OK if you just use those processing times. (They are a
great size for apple butter.)

Good luck!
Dave

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi everyone


I'm new to bottling, but it might solve one of lifes problems, so I'm
interested to try it. I really dont want to go out and buy a load of
the proper jars until I've tried it once to see if it is the solution.
Yes I've read the FAQ. Hence my probably predictable question: if I use
jam jars, sauce jars, etc for just the first run, what sort of failure
rate could I expect? A fair rate of failures to seal could be accepted
for the one test run.

Failure to seal is easy to spot on these jars, and I wouldnt let anyone
else have access to the jars, so I dont expect a safety problem.

Or is this a bad bad move?

thank you,


NT





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Old 07-05-2006, 01:15 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 611
Default What failure rate?


wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:

Hi everyone


I'm new to bottling, but it might solve one of lifes problems, so I'm
interested to try it. I really dont want to go out and buy a load of
the proper jars until I've tried it once to see if it is the solution.
Yes I've read the FAQ. Hence my probably predictable question: if I use
jam jars, sauce jars, etc for just the first run, what sort of failure
rate could I expect? A fair rate of failures to seal could be accepted
for the one test run.

Failure to seal is easy to spot on these jars, and I wouldnt let anyone
else have access to the jars, so I dont expect a safety problem.

Or is this a bad bad move?

thank you,


NT


Maybe no-one here has tried this? I mean reusing the lids that came
with them, using them a 2nd time, and BWB processing.


NT


since I can't re-create the commercial canning/jarring/packaging environment
that was used the FIRST time a commercial product was jarred in a commercial
jar, in my own kitchen, (did that make sense?) I wouldn't reuse that jar
for my own product. Or the lid. Buy an approved home canning jar and use
the approved home canning lid that goes with it.

My time and the stuff I put in the jars is worth too much to put it in to
reused jars and take the chance that the seal would fail or the jar would
explode - or someone would get sick.....;-( It's just one worth the risk -
to me.

Kathi





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Old 07-05-2006, 01:27 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 3,906
Default What failure rate?

wrote:
wrote:


Hi everyone


I'm new to bottling, but it might solve one of lifes problems, so I'm
interested to try it. I really dont want to go out and buy a load of
the proper jars until I've tried it once to see if it is the solution.
Yes I've read the FAQ. Hence my probably predictable question: if I use
jam jars, sauce jars, etc for just the first run, what sort of failure
rate could I expect? A fair rate of failures to seal could be accepted
for the one test run.

Failure to seal is easy to spot on these jars, and I wouldnt let anyone
else have access to the jars, so I dont expect a safety problem.

Or is this a bad bad move?

thank you,


NT



Maybe no-one here has tried this? I mean reusing the lids that came
with them, using them a 2nd time, and BWB processing.


NT

I haven't answered the OP on this one but I will now. Once upon a time
we were living in a country that had no tradition of home preservation
of food. Consequently I reused jam and jelly jars and the original lids.
They will reseal but IIRC the failure rate was more than 50%, that's a
lot of jams and jellies to keep in the refrigerator and try to eat up
before they go moldy. Like everyone else who has answered I would
discourage the reuse of commercial canning jars and lids with the
exception of some of the brand name spaghetti sauce jars that actually
are canning jars and standard lids and rings fit.

My two cents.

George

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Old 07-05-2006, 03:00 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?

George Shirley wrote:
wrote:
wrote:


Hi everyone


I'm new to bottling, but it might solve one of lifes problems, so I'm
interested to try it. I really dont want to go out and buy a load of
the proper jars until I've tried it once to see if it is the solution.
Yes I've read the FAQ. Hence my probably predictable question: if I use
jam jars, sauce jars, etc for just the first run, what sort of failure
rate could I expect? A fair rate of failures to seal could be accepted
for the one test run.

Failure to seal is easy to spot on these jars, and I wouldnt let anyone
else have access to the jars, so I dont expect a safety problem.

Or is this a bad bad move?

thank you,


NT



Maybe no-one here has tried this? I mean reusing the lids that came
with them, using them a 2nd time, and BWB processing.


NT

I haven't answered the OP on this one but I will now. Once upon a time
we were living in a country that had no tradition of home preservation
of food. Consequently I reused jam and jelly jars and the original lids.
They will reseal but IIRC the failure rate was more than 50%, that's a
lot of jams and jellies to keep in the refrigerator and try to eat up
before they go moldy. Like everyone else who has answered I would
discourage the reuse of commercial canning jars and lids with the
exception of some of the brand name spaghetti sauce jars that actually
are canning jars and standard lids and rings fit.

My two cents.

George


Thank you George. 50% is workable in this case, the failed seals can go
in the freezer and the sound ones in the cupboard. If I want to do any
more I'll get the proper kit.


Thanks, NT

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Old 07-05-2006, 03:07 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?

Kathi Jones wrote:

My time and the stuff I put in the jars is worth too much to put it in to
reused jars and take the chance that the seal would fail


its not a chance, we know a percentage of them will


or the jar would
explode


how is bottling in a bwb going to do that? There is no pressure
diffrerential, so explosion is out of the question afaics. Cracking due
to heat shock is the risk., so quick temp changes will be minimised.
I've used food jars for other purposes enough to know theyre fine as
long as one is sensible.


- or someone would get sick.....;-( It's just one worth the risk -
to me.


how is this going to occur? Ones that dont seal get frozen, and ones
that do seal either fail later or dont. Either way its easy to tell the
difference, and any with seals that fail later are rejected as unfit.
What scenario are you proposing that would cause a risk to health?


NT



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Old 07-05-2006, 05:59 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?


wrote in message
ups.com...
Kathi Jones wrote:

My time and the stuff I put in the jars is worth too much to put it in

to
reused jars and take the chance that the seal would fail


its not a chance, we know a percentage of them will


or the jar would
explode


how is bottling in a bwb going to do that? There is no pressure
diffrerential, so explosion is out of the question afaics. Cracking due
to heat shock is the risk., so quick temp changes will be minimised.
I've used food jars for other purposes enough to know theyre fine as
long as one is sensible.


duh, what was I thinking...oh ya, about that time when I was doing a bwb of
some jam in proper canning jars, following proper procedure and methods.
OK, so the jar in question didn't explode, but it did crack, the bottom fell
out and there was jam all inside the canner. So if even a proper canning
jar can do that, what could a reused mayo jar do? I'm not going to find out



- or someone would get sick.....;-( It's just one worth the risk -
to me.


how is this going to occur? Ones that dont seal get frozen, and ones
that do seal either fail later or dont. Either way its easy to tell the
difference, and any with seals that fail later are rejected as unfit.
What scenario are you proposing that would cause a risk to health?


I thought the whole point of bwb canning is to safely preserve and get a
proper seal 100 % every time. That's my goal and I usually achieve it. If
by slim chance I have a failed seal, I know that all I have to do is wipe
the rim again, recap with a clean new lid, and bwb again. It's that easy
and it always works. None of my canned stuff has EVER gone in to the
freezer. If you're just going to put it in to the freezer, why bother with
the canning process?

Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind about this - you've got
it all figured out. Why'd you bother asking the question?




NT



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Old 07-05-2006, 11:29 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?

Kathi Jones wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Kathi Jones wrote:


My time and the stuff I put in the jars is worth too much to put it in

to
reused jars and take the chance that the seal would fail


its not a chance, we know a percentage of them will


or the jar would
explode


how is bottling in a bwb going to do that? There is no pressure
diffrerential, so explosion is out of the question afaics. Cracking due
to heat shock is the risk., so quick temp changes will be minimised.
I've used food jars for other purposes enough to know theyre fine as
long as one is sensible.


duh, what was I thinking...oh ya, about that time when I was doing a bwb of
some jam in proper canning jars, following proper procedure and methods.
OK, so the jar in question didn't explode, but it did crack, the bottom fell
out and there was jam all inside the canner. So if even a proper canning
jar can do that, what could a reused mayo jar do? I'm not going to find out


exactly the same.


- or someone would get sick.....;-( It's just one worth the risk -
to me.


how is this going to occur? Ones that dont seal get frozen, and ones
that do seal either fail later or dont. Either way its easy to tell the
difference, and any with seals that fail later are rejected as unfit.
What scenario are you proposing that would cause a risk to health?


I thought the whole point of bwb canning is to safely preserve and get a
proper seal 100 % every time. That's my goal and I usually achieve it. If
by slim chance I have a failed seal, I know that all I have to do is wipe
the rim again, recap with a clean new lid, and bwb again. It's that easy
and it always works. None of my canned stuff has EVER gone in to the
freezer. If you're just going to put it in to the freezer, why bother with
the canning process?


you dont seem to have followed much of this one.


Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind about this - you've got
it all figured out. Why'd you bother asking the question?


I'll leave it as a mystery to you. I see you have no risk scenario I
need to do some work on.


NT

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Old 07-05-2006, 11:56 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?


wrote in message
ups.com...
Kathi Jones wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Kathi Jones wrote:


My time and the stuff I put in the jars is worth too much to put it

in
to
reused jars and take the chance that the seal would fail

its not a chance, we know a percentage of them will


or the jar would
explode

how is bottling in a bwb going to do that? There is no pressure
diffrerential, so explosion is out of the question afaics. Cracking

due
to heat shock is the risk., so quick temp changes will be minimised.
I've used food jars for other purposes enough to know theyre fine as
long as one is sensible.


duh, what was I thinking...oh ya, about that time when I was doing a bwb

of
some jam in proper canning jars, following proper procedure and methods.
OK, so the jar in question didn't explode, but it did crack, the bottom

fell
out and there was jam all inside the canner. So if even a proper

canning
jar can do that, what could a reused mayo jar do? I'm not going to find

out

exactly the same.


- or someone would get sick.....;-( It's just one worth the risk -
to me.

how is this going to occur? Ones that dont seal get frozen, and ones
that do seal either fail later or dont. Either way its easy to tell

the
difference, and any with seals that fail later are rejected as unfit.
What scenario are you proposing that would cause a risk to health?


I thought the whole point of bwb canning is to safely preserve and get a
proper seal 100 % every time. That's my goal and I usually achieve it.

If
by slim chance I have a failed seal, I know that all I have to do is

wipe
the rim again, recap with a clean new lid, and bwb again. It's that

easy
and it always works. None of my canned stuff has EVER gone in to the
freezer. If you're just going to put it in to the freezer, why bother

with
the canning process?


you dont seem to have followed much of this one.


Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind about this - you've

got
it all figured out. Why'd you bother asking the question?


I'll leave it as a mystery to you. I see you have no risk scenario I
need to do some work on.


NT


yep, you win - just don't send me any of your salsa in an old mayo jar


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Old 08-05-2006, 09:48 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Default What failure rate?

Kathi Jones wrote:

yep, you win - just don't send me any of your salsa in an old mayo jar



.:\:/:.
+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@[email protected]@[email protected] | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | jgs (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:16 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 611
Default What failure rate?

I know, Brian (too late, I'm afraid) , I try not to fall for this crap, but
every once in a while, I get sucked in....my bad, as my 12 year old daughter
says.... ;-(

argh!!!

Kathi

"Brian Mailman" wrote in message
...
Kathi Jones wrote:

yep, you win - just don't send me any of your salsa in an old mayo jar



.:\:/:.
+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@[email protected]@[email protected] | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | jgs (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\





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