Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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Old 30-10-2003, 07:31 PM
Nic Smith \(Developers\)
 
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Hi all,

I've been making wine for quite a while and well, its pretty damn good. it
goes down well at work, at the local gym and with family and friends. at
times, i'm finding it hard to keep on top of demands.

People are now offering money for my wine and i have to refuse them saying
that it is illegal as i have not got a license to sell it.

where could i possibly get a license from to sell my home made wine and what
implications would there be in having a license?



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Old 30-10-2003, 08:20 PM
Charles H
 
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Developers\ wrote:

where could i possibly get a license from to sell my home made wine and what
implications would there be in having a license?


I know of no other alternative to commerical licenses... but perhaps
these people would be interested in pooling resources and learning how
to make wine themselves... I have 2 friends that have joined me in
making wine and we all go splits on the equipment and grapes. It's
worked out well, but we are rather good friends, and kind of related as
well, so it's a closer connection.

I've always enteratained the idea of a co-op winery as well... not sure
too much on the legality of such an operation but perhaps when I have
more capital it will be something I will look into :^)

--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields
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Old 30-10-2003, 09:07 PM
Negodki
 
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"Nic Smith (Developers)" wrote:

People are now offering money for my wine and i have to refuse them saying
that it is illegal as i have not got a license to sell it.


Technically, it is probably illegal for you to give away homemade wine,
depending upon how the Treasury and courts have defined "personal or family
use". It is certainly illegal to "trade" it for goods or services (including
"favors"). But you are unlikely to be prosecuted unless you offer it for
sale, in which case you are almost certain to be prosecuted.

where could i possibly get a license from to sell my home made wine and

what
implications would there be in having a license?


In the US, you cannot obtain a license to sell home made wine
(http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/faq/subpages/24_75.htm). You would have to
become a bonded winery, paying all applicable fees, and submitting all
applicable paperwork. You would also have to comply with a myriad of
regulations (federal and state) dictating how your wine is made, what you
put into it, quantity, quality, alcohol level, bottle sizes, and the shape
and color of your lables. You would also be required to put inaccurate
warning labels on your bottles, reflecting the (politically-motivated)
"science" of the day. You would have to collect and pay all the various
federal, state, and local "sin" taxes, and you would be precluded from
brewing on Sunday in several states.




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Old 30-10-2003, 10:17 PM
Dave Stacy
 
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CORRECT -A-MUNDO !!!!!!!!

I'm going through the process now.
You just wouldn't believe the amount of paperwork involved.

One hint though...
After you go through all the paperwork life does get easier.
Believe it or not it seems the only things the Fed and St agencies are
interested in is the tax money. AND (get this) how well your facility
is secured. They actually have a regulation for the inspectors
regarding the size and type of dead bolts. (Can't have any one
stealing that wine before the tax has been paid on it)

Unless you're planning getting serious and producing a few thousand
gallons or more a year my advice is forget it. It doesn't make sense
to go through all the "bs" to be able to sell a few cases a year.

Nic is right about giving it away. That's a "no-no". The law says for
YOUR and your family household members personal consumption. You can't
give it away.
Just a footnote here.........and ATF agent recently told me that
technically you can't even serve it to friends in your home so that
rules out parties.

Good Luck

Dave Stacy

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:07:46 -0700, "Negodki"
wrote:

"Nic Smith (Developers)" wrote:

People are now offering money for my wine and i have to refuse them saying
that it is illegal as i have not got a license to sell it.


Technically, it is probably illegal for you to give away homemade wine,
depending upon how the Treasury and courts have defined "personal or family
use". It is certainly illegal to "trade" it for goods or services (including
"favors"). But you are unlikely to be prosecuted unless you offer it for
sale, in which case you are almost certain to be prosecuted.

where could i possibly get a license from to sell my home made wine and

what
implications would there be in having a license?


In the US, you cannot obtain a license to sell home made wine
(http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/faq/subpages/24_75.htm). You would have to
become a bonded winery, paying all applicable fees, and submitting all
applicable paperwork. You would also have to comply with a myriad of
regulations (federal and state) dictating how your wine is made, what you
put into it, quantity, quality, alcohol level, bottle sizes, and the shape
and color of your lables. You would also be required to put inaccurate
warning labels on your bottles, reflecting the (politically-motivated)
"science" of the day. You would have to collect and pay all the various
federal, state, and local "sin" taxes, and you would be precluded from
brewing on Sunday in several states.




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Old 30-10-2003, 11:32 PM
Negodki
 
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Default Selling Wine

"Dave Stacy" wrote:

Nic is right about giving it away. That's a "no-no". The law says for
YOUR and your family household members personal consumption. You can't
give it away.
Just a footnote here.........and ATF agent recently told me that
technically you can't even serve it to friends in your home so that
rules out parties.


The law's not quite that strict, Dave, although the language is deliberately
ambiguous:

(f) Removal. Wine produced under this section may be removed from the
premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized
affairs, exhibitions or competitions, such as home winemaker's contests,
tastings or judgings, but may not under any circumstances be sold or offered
for sale. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. 85-859, 72 Stat. 1331, as amended (26 U.S.C.
5042))

Since the word "including" is used, there is an implication that there are
other permitted "removals" than those listed. One could argue that a party
is an "organized affair", or even an "exhibition" or (if it is a fraternity
party) a "competition"; or that they are sufficiently similar to be
"included" in permitted uses. A hard-nosed Treasury agent or federal justice
might interpret it differently. One court has ruled that "in-laws" are not
"family" for purposes of this code section. Another has ruled that "family"
includes even casual acquaintances. Both are now deceased, and it's anyone's
guess how the current circuit court will interpret this (or any) law.

Ain't government regulation fun?





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Old 31-10-2003, 03:29 AM
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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"Dave Stacy" wrote in message

They actually have a regulation for the inspectors
regarding the size and type of dead bolts. (Can't have any one
stealing that wine before the tax has been paid on it)


My you have such a poor outlook on our government. The law would not exist
if it was not for your benefit. What would happen if thieves stole some of
your wine before it was properly aged? That could potentially harm your
reputation amongst the thieves and their friends and result in lost sales.

Even the wine ready for sale could be damaged from rough handling in the
get-a-way vehicle. They could steal in on a Friday night and serve it at a
dinner party on Saturday and it would not taste right after all that shaking
around.

The government is looking out for you!
Ed


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Old 31-10-2003, 03:38 AM
Steve
 
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Default Selling Wine

I've been making wine for quite a while and well, its pretty damn good. it
goes down well at work, at the local gym and with family and friends. at
times, i'm finding it hard to keep on top of demands.

People are now offering money for my wine and i have to refuse them saying
that it is illegal as i have not got a license to sell it.

where could i possibly get a license from to sell my home made wine and what
implications would there be in having a license?


I don't know what state you are from, but in Massachusetts it is
virtually impossible for someone to make wine at home for resale. For
all the rules and regulations in MA see
http://www.state.ma.us/abcc/index.htm

I can understand some regulation when it comes to manufacturing and/or
selling alcohol, but some of the fees for these licenses are
outrageous. I would think the state could raise just as much if not
even more money if they just had a $100 annual license fee to sell
wine and a penalty of $5000 for getting caught without a license. I
and thousands of other amateur winemakers in this state would gladly
pay $100 for a license to sell a few batches of homemade wine to the
public and local restaurants. The state would accomplish the goal of
raising money through licensing and sales taxes, and they would also
have control of who is selling and who is buying.

Selling my wine wouldn't necessarily make me rich, but it would be the
most gratifying and "funnest" side job I can think of.
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Old 31-10-2003, 06:30 AM
Tom S
 
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"Nic Smith (Developers)" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I've been making wine for quite a while and well, its pretty damn good. it
goes down well at work, at the local gym and with family and friends. at
times, i'm finding it hard to keep on top of demands.

People are now offering money for my wine and i have to refuse them saying
that it is illegal as i have not got a license to sell it.

where could i possibly get a license from to sell my home made wine and

what
implications would there be in having a license?


You are exactly where I was awhile back. You need to make your wine at a
bonded winery, get yourself licensed to sell wine, and pay a bunch of fees
and taxes along the way. It's a big pain in the ass, but if you
short-circuit the system you put yourself at risk legally.

You'll need a basic permit from the Feds to start with, plus a license from
your local ABC. Also, your state Franchise Tax Board gets involved
somewhere along the way.

Tom S


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Old 31-10-2003, 12:49 PM
Dave Stacy
 
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Default Selling Wine

Steve,

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately you and I don't head up the
agencies that make those rules.

Imagine how much denero would be raised if there was a license that
allowed you to produce and SELL up to 500 gallons a year.
I agree if it was $100 to $500 most home winemakers would fork over
the cash and potholes in the road outside your home might get fixed
with the money.

Oh well, that law doesn't exist so here I wade through the 40 pages of
ATF forms that must be filled out in triplicate.

Dave Stacy

On 30 Oct 2003 19:38:53 -0800, (Steve) wrote:

I've been making wine for quite a while and well, its pretty damn good. it
goes down well at work, at the local gym and with family and friends. at
times, i'm finding it hard to keep on top of demands.

People are now offering money for my wine and i have to refuse them saying
that it is illegal as i have not got a license to sell it.

where could i possibly get a license from to sell my home made wine and what
implications would there be in having a license?


I don't know what state you are from, but in Massachusetts it is
virtually impossible for someone to make wine at home for resale. For
all the rules and regulations in MA see
http://www.state.ma.us/abcc/index.htm

I can understand some regulation when it comes to manufacturing and/or
selling alcohol, but some of the fees for these licenses are
outrageous. I would think the state could raise just as much if not
even more money if they just had a $100 annual license fee to sell
wine and a penalty of $5000 for getting caught without a license. I
and thousands of other amateur winemakers in this state would gladly
pay $100 for a license to sell a few batches of homemade wine to the
public and local restaurants. The state would accomplish the goal of
raising money through licensing and sales taxes, and they would also
have control of who is selling and who is buying.

Selling my wine wouldn't necessarily make me rich, but it would be the
most gratifying and "funnest" side job I can think of.


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Old 31-10-2003, 12:53 PM
Dave Stacy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Selling Wine

Oh now that is just too funny!

Ed, you and I have the same dry sense of humor. I laughed my ass of
when I read this.

Thanks for the good chuckle this morning.

Dave Stacy

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 03:29:50 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Dave Stacy" wrote in message

They actually have a regulation for the inspectors
regarding the size and type of dead bolts. (Can't have any one
stealing that wine before the tax has been paid on it)


My you have such a poor outlook on our government. The law would not exist
if it was not for your benefit. What would happen if thieves stole some of
your wine before it was properly aged? That could potentially harm your
reputation amongst the thieves and their friends and result in lost sales.

Even the wine ready for sale could be damaged from rough handling in the
get-a-way vehicle. They could steal in on a Friday night and serve it at a
dinner party on Saturday and it would not taste right after all that shaking
around.

The government is looking out for you!
Ed




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Old 31-10-2003, 01:10 PM
Bill McCarty
 
Posts: n/a
Default Selling Wine


Nic Smith (Developers) wrote in message ...
where could i possibly get a license from to sell my home made wine and
what implications would there be in having a license?


I wonder if you've ever considered leaving the People's Republic
of Massachusetts and moving to sunnier climes in Pennsylvania ? Here,
small boutique wineries are not only licensed and legal but are
encouraged by law. For details, contact the PA. Liquor Control Board
in Harrisburg PA.




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Old 31-10-2003, 03:14 PM
JEP
 
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Default Selling Wine

(Steve) wrote in message om...


I don't know what state you are from, but in Massachusetts it is
virtually impossible for someone to make wine at home for resale. For
all the rules and regulations in MA see
http://www.state.ma.us/abcc/index.htm


You could try to hook up with a local farmer. See MA law CH 138 sec.
19B. or go here.
http://www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/138-19B.htm

Doesn't get you around the Fed. laws, but the MA fee is $22 for less
than 5,000 gallons.


Andy
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Old 31-10-2003, 03:17 PM
Fred Williams
 
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Default Selling Wine

For a whole diffeent view, you might want to roam the back hills and valleys
of say Tennesse, Kentucky, Arkansas, Missouri, and the Carolinas :-) Just
be damn careful about how you make your "first contact."

"Bill McCarty" wrote in message
...

Nic Smith (Developers) wrote in message ...
where could i possibly get a license from to sell my home made wine and
what implications would there be in having a license?


I wonder if you've ever considered leaving the People's Republic
of Massachusetts and moving to sunnier climes in Pennsylvania ? Here,
small boutique wineries are not only licensed and legal but are
encouraged by law. For details, contact the PA. Liquor Control Board
in Harrisburg PA.






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Old 31-10-2003, 04:58 PM
Clyde Gill
 
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It's a big pain in the ass, but if you
short-circuit the system you put yourself at risk legally.


Operating a winery is the third business I've done, and it's not a
whole lot more of a pain than any of the others. The 23 forms the TTB
(use to be ATF) has you fill out can be intimidating at first, but
it's little more than just sitting down and doing it.

Others have pointed out some of the more important aspects of the
legalities involved with opening a winery. I thought I'd add that it
takes much more than just winemaking skills to open/operate a winery.
Best to be versed a bit on business matters before taking the big
leap, especially marketing. I'd place my bet for success on someone
who had business skills over winemaking!

clyde
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Old 31-10-2003, 09:41 PM
Dave Stacy
 
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Sounds like me Clyde
Been a businessman for 25 years and have done pretty well
Been winemaking for 12 and done pretty crappy laugh

HEY! If you're right and I hope you are then I'll do great!

Dave Stacy


On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:58:12 -0600, Clyde Gill wrote:


It's a big pain in the ass, but if you
short-circuit the system you put yourself at risk legally.


Operating a winery is the third business I've done, and it's not a
whole lot more of a pain than any of the others. The 23 forms the TTB
(use to be ATF) has you fill out can be intimidating at first, but
it's little more than just sitting down and doing it.

Others have pointed out some of the more important aspects of the
legalities involved with opening a winery. I thought I'd add that it
takes much more than just winemaking skills to open/operate a winery.
Best to be versed a bit on business matters before taking the big
leap, especially marketing. I'd place my bet for success on someone
who had business skills over winemaking!

clyde




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