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Old 28-08-2006, 07:08 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
Message-ID:

faq: collateral included deaths in organic rice production
posting frequency: monthly to a.a.e.v., t.p.a., r.f.v. and other
newsgroups as requested. corrections or additions are solicited
.

a.a.e.v. and t.p.a. are regularly visited by a number of vegetarians who
believe(?) their dietary choice: 'saves animals' or is, somehow, 'less
cruel' than an omnivorous diet.

simply, this assertion does not pass even the most cursory, minimally
applied logic, not to mention any degree of even the simplest research.

the facts are that modern, large-scale cereal grain production comes at
a minimum cost of _several deaths per pound_, whereas grass-fed meat
production, whether from production agriculture or hunting is counted
_several pounds per death_. it is absolutely inescapable that: from
death comes life, and agricultu is, always has been, and always will
be a bloody, bloody business. anybody who believes that by eating a
pound of pasta instead of a pound of venison they are 'saving a life' is
delusional.

evaluating organic production is instructive for several reasons: many
well-meaning, good-at-heart people believe organic = 'better, healthier'
(it is not, necessarily), and the number of included collateral deaths -
while considerably fewer than in 'conventional' production - are much
more visible; more personal; more illustrative for those who favour
responsibility and information.

this analysis of collateral included deaths is a refinement and
extension of an earlier abbreviated case study posted to a.a.e.v. in
october 1998. additional information and analysis based on further
interviews and observations is included in this iteration.

---------

although i no longer straddle a tractor or herd a combine, i have driven
both - literally - thousands of miles. i am still engaged in
agribusiness, and we have organic as well as conventional farms, organic
'truck farms' and ranching operations. in production agriculture, i am
most familiar with: rice, grain sorgham, cotton, sunflowers and
soybeans. the facts, data, assumptions and conclusions, while developed
on two organic rice farms (900 and 160 acres) and one 'conventional'
rice farm of 1340 acres in colorado county, texas, are probably
more-or-less applicable to other cereal grains grown in other localés.

production on the organic farms is about 3500-4000 pounds/acre for the
jasmine farm (900 ac) and the shortgrain farm (160 ac), while on the
'conventional' longrain farm, it is 9000-11000 pounds, annualised. our
organic operations produce seed rice and none of it goes (directly) from
our farm to your table (although it does indirectly and we thank you for
your partonage). because of economics and ability to produce, we will
be adding an additional 1500-2000 acres of organic rice production
within the next three years. although organic is considerably more of a
pain-in-the-ass to grow, the r.o.i. is better than twice that of
conventional rice.

a very conservative annualised estimate of vertebrate deaths in organic
rice farming is ~20 pound (arithmetic follows). this works out a bit
less than two vertebrate deaths per square foot, and, again, is *quite*
conservative. for conventionally grown rice, the gross body-count is
*at least* several times that figure. collateral included deaths from
'conventional' agriculture are more inferential than from 'organic'
production (explained later) and, although the number of deaths is fewer
in organic v. conventional, they are far more visible in organic
production.

the vertebrate deaths come from: frogs (5+ species), toads (common
bufo), anole lizards, shrews (3 species), voles, mice, rats, snakes, a
couple of kinds of turtles, cats, rabbits, skunk, nutria & muskrats,
raccoons, possums, deer (never less than a pair of fawns harvested per
50 acres), pheasants, quail, pigeons, cattle egrets, sparrows,
starlings, waxwings, .... although all of these are not harvested
*every* time, they are the 'regulars.' occasionally a canvasback, teal,
heron, mallard, black duck, coot, spoonbill, crow, hawk, kite, eagle,
buzzard ... is shredded, as is the occasional feral pig or lost calf,
coyote or dog.

for information, an acre has 43,264+ square feet. the vast majority of
the deaths are (as one would imagine): frogs, toads and anole lizards;
rodents and insectivores.

- when cutting the rice, there is a - literal - green waterfall of frogs
and anoles moving in front of the combine. sometimes the 'rain' is just
a hard shower (± 10,000 frogs per acre) crossing the header, other times
it is a deluge (+50,000 acre). never is it a drought; never a mist.
sometimes, the number of frogs swimming across the cutter-bar is so
massive, we have to reduce travel speed of the combine - there is just
too much rice lost by being pressed into the rather thickish 'arroz con
gracielà paté' which travels across the screens, rather than falling
into the hopper as good grain should.

these numbers may sound extreme to those who believe there is a wildlife
de-population crisis, but considering one can easily see 10-20-30+ frogs
(and several anoles) within the top few inches of a foot stand of rice,
the numbers making gracielà paté are trivial.

most times, judging from the visible continuious population swimming
across the header, it is somewhere between 10K & 50+K per acre
harvested. a good, reasonable, annualised (but still conservative)
number of amphibian and anole deaths through the combine is 35,000 of
all species harvested per acre, combined average for two cuttings. in
spite of these seemingly large numbers, far, far more frogs & lizards
escape than are combined. i would guess that the 35,000 amphibian
deaths represents less than 20% of the total population, and probably
far less, but that is just a guess - plenty, plenty, plenty are not
killed.

most amphibians are harvested during the first cutting in mid-summer.
during the early fall second cutting, the population is not as great, so
the body count is lower during the second bite at the apple (so to
speak), so the 35,000 (conservative annualised average) is front-loaded,
probably 25,000 + 10,000 deaths.

- rodents and insectivores get hammered pretty much year-round, with all
the dirt work, cultivation and harvesting activities and, for rice
specifically, the near-continuious cycle of flooding and drying the
fields. i have seen responsible estimates of rodent/insectivore
population of 9-35 square meter, and i think the 35/meter is probably
more accurate (in this area, anyhow) judging from the 500 yard-long,
foot-wide windrows of drowned grey and brown on the lee-side levee
whenever the rice is flooded. very conservatively - since nobody sees
plowed-up or planed-in mice (whose deaths have to be substantial in
number) assume 3/4th of one collateral included death per square foot,
or ±33,000 rodents and insectivores killed per acre of production.
again, this is a *very* conservative measure and covers a lot of
activity year-round. the *real* number of rodent/insectivore deaths
probably well exceeds two/square foot.

- a lot of birds get combined-up, and nutria, and more than one or two
deer, but another substantial source of death during all operations is
being crushed & buried. the tires on tractors and combines are 42"
wide, and there are two on each side. there is no way to tell how many
frogs, toads, snakes, turtles, ... get blended into the mud, but it is
not an insignificant number. other than amphibians and
rodents/insectivores, the numbers of other deaths is difficult to assign
a competent number, but the number is not small.

the arithmetic: for 3,500 pounds/acre harvested, there is a toll of
35,000 amphibians and 33,000 rodents and insectivores, or 68,000, plus,
say, (to make the math easy while still being conservative) 2,000 from
mud-mixed frogs and snakes + birds + nutria and muskrats and cats and
coons and possums + ... + ..., or ± 70,000 deaths per acre of harvested,
production-farmed organic rice. this works out to ~20 deaths per pound
of rice - conservatively.

---------

for conventional farming, using every _________icide when needed, the
body count is at least an order of magnitude higher, although the deaths
are far less visible.

one can stand between the larger organic field and the 1340 any time
between april and june and hear the difference. in the organic field,
you cannot discern an individual frog. it is an overgrown, jumbled
layered cacaphony of croaks, cheeps, grunts and miscellaneous ribbets.
on the 1340, one can hear and identify individual frogs and toads. the
difference is that the billions of amphibian eggs that were laid when
the 1340 was flooded at the same time and in the same fashion as the 900
didn't make many tadpoles and fewer frogs due to applications of
pesticides, insecticides, herbicides and fungicides.

closer to harvest, after the application of other _________icides, the
1340 is nearly mute and still.

the rodents and insectivores go the same route. at the end of a row, in
the 1340, rarely does one see any significant number of small fuzzies
scurrying over the levee; in the organic fields, the end of the row
looks like a scene from ~ben~.

one can tell the difference after harvest, also. on the organic field,
as the combine passes, the wall of birdlife: hawks of several varieties,
crows, kites, buzzards, egrets, herons, ... descends to glean both
escapees and paté. on the 1340, there are still quite a number of
birds, but nowhere near the solid covering of the organic side.

---------

none of these figures include displacement or deaths due to
transportation or infrastructure, nor any pest control measure during
storage or transporation.

nor are insect deaths counted, and insects are animals, too, but most
involved-in-body-count vegetarians prefer to ignore or minimise deaths
of other than cute or furry critters.

are there ways to reduce collateral included deaths in modern production
agriculture? not really. reductions can be made with more hand-work in
smaller fields using 'appropriate technology', but when tractors and
combines get involved, deaths go up. the overall animal population and
mix in the area farmed has a lot to do with what kind of deaths are
seen, too. this case study references a semi-tropical mixed-use area
with short-grass prarie, woods, row-crop farming and rice cultivation.
there are more large vertebrates of different species in this ecosystem
than there will be in an area that is horizon-to-horizon monoculture.
where we will regularly harvest deer, nutria and wild pigs, etc., all of
these would not normally be expected in northern california, for
example.

from death comes life. agricultu is now, always has been and always
will be a bloody business.

buon apetité.

cordially,
diderot


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Old 28-08-2006, 07:22 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"


wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
Message-ID:

faq: collateral included deaths in organic rice production
posting frequency: monthly to a.a.e.v., t.p.a., r.f.v. and other
newsgroups as requested. corrections or additions are solicited
.

a.a.e.v. and t.p.a. are regularly visited by a number of vegetarians who
believe(?) their dietary choice: 'saves animals' or is, somehow, 'less
cruel' than an omnivorous diet.

simply, this assertion does not pass even the most cursory, minimally
applied logic, not to mention any degree of even the simplest research.




LOL!!!

Where's the photographic evidence?

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Old 28-08-2006, 08:12 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

Whining, Crying, Bawl wrote:
wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
Message-ID:

faq: collateral included deaths in organic rice production
posting frequency: monthly to a.a.e.v., t.p.a., r.f.v. and other
newsgroups as requested. corrections or additions are solicited
.

a.a.e.v. and t.p.a. are regularly visited by a number of vegetarians who
believe(?) their dietary choice: 'saves animals' or is, somehow, 'less
cruel' than an omnivorous diet.

simply, this assertion does not pass even the most cursory, minimally
applied logic, not to mention any degree of even the simplest research.




LOL!!!

Where's the photographic evidence?


And why is my rice never covered in blood and fur?

The cd counting war goes on.....

Scented Nectar
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/

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Old 28-08-2006, 08:29 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On 28 Aug 2006 11:22:17 -0700, "Whining, Crying, Bawl" wrote:


wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot

.. . .

a.a.e.v. and t.p.a. are regularly visited by a number of vegetarians who
believe(?) their dietary choice: 'saves animals' or is, somehow, 'less
cruel' than an omnivorous diet.

simply, this assertion does not pass even the most cursory, minimally
applied logic, not to mention any degree of even the simplest research.




LOL!!!

Where's the photographic evidence?


To me there's nothing really funny about it, but we see that
the environment goes through this:

http://tinyurl.com/hpq43
http://tinyurl.com/j8v5c
http://tinyurl.com/gplhs
http://tinyurl.com/jom73
http://tinyurl.com/zkw32
http://tinyurl.com/j7lsx

and through this:

http://tinyurl.com/gt56j
http://tinyurl.com/fyh73

and later through this:

http://tinyurl.com/klkfv
http://tinyurl.com/czo32
http://tinyurl.com/fbfcm

and eventually to this:

http://tinyurl.com/epdad
http://tinyurl.com/zupzg
http://tinyurl.com/j5ckj

Even though we don't see photos dedicated to animals
being killed, anyone who knows anything at all about
animals can easily understand how the machinery,
spraying and complete changes of environment kill them.
If any person can't, that necessarily means they have no
understanding at all about how the processes influence
animals, probably because they're afraid to think about
it for some personal reason(s). It undoubtedly shows that
they have no understanding or interest in how humans
influence animals during rice production.
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Old 29-08-2006, 12:20 AM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother wrote:

wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
Message-ID:


This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay


It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.


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Old 29-08-2006, 11:02 AM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

[email protected] wrote in message ...
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother wrote:

wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
Message-ID:


This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay


It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.


"There is an "article" circulating on the Internet that describes how
thousands of frogs and other animals are killed in the mechanized
harvesting of grain crops. This "collateral animal deaths" story is an
elaborate hoax. The author, a "Texas organic rice farmer" is a gifted
writer, but he should use his talents elsewhere.

The author's numbers describe a plague of frogs of biblical
proportions. However, it is questionable if he has even been on a rice
farm. The major point that our author has missed is that rice fields
are harvested dry. The irrigation water is drained, and the ground is
left to dry before the harvesters go out in the field (otherwise, they'd
sink in the mud). There just aren't that many amphibians in the field.

Regrettably, there probably are some small animal deaths. However,
the number of deaths in a mile of rice harvesting pales in comparison to
the road kill on a mile of highway. Harvesters move slowly, and they
are not the high speed machines described in this article.

At Lundberg Family Farms, we care deeply for the animals that we share
our fields with. For example, every spring before field work begins, we
search the fields for nests, rescuing eggs for a local incubation
centers (mature pairs re-nest when the nests are disturbed like this).
After hatching, the fledglings are raised and released back into the
wild. Last year, we rescued over 3,000 duck eggs. After harvest, we
flood our fields to provide habitat for winter migratory birds and
waterfowl. They eat the rice that is left in the fields and contribute
fertilizer for next spring. There are autumn days when the sky is
blackened by canadian geese (and the sound is beautiful)! We see ducks,
geese, cranes, rails, pheasants, egrets, herons, swans, and even bald
eagles resting in our fields.

We are committed to sustainable and organic farming techniques. We
see our farming operation as a "partnership with nature," and would
not continue if rice harvesting resulted in the "death toll" that this hoax
suggests.

-- Kent Lundberg.

Kent Lundberg
Lundberg Family Farms
http://www.lundberg.com



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Old 29-08-2006, 02:11 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

Hey, Kent Lundberg, how are you? We buy your rice. Organic is
good. Interesting that there are no collateral included deaths in
commercial rice production.
I hope you're making some digicam photos or videos of the birds
you're growing along with all the rice.
..
At Lundberg Family Farms, we care deeply for the animals that we share
our fields with. For example, every spring before field work begins, we
search the fields for nests, rescuing eggs for a local incubation
centers (mature pairs re-nest when the nests are disturbed like this).
After hatching, the fledglings are raised and released back into the
wild. Last year, we rescued over 3,000 duck eggs. After harvest, we
flood our fields to provide habitat for winter migratory birds and
waterfowl. They eat the rice that is left in the fields and contribute
fertilizer for next spring. There are autumn days when the sky is
blackened by canadian geese (and the sound is beautiful)! We see ducks,
geese, cranes, rails, pheasants, egrets, herons, swans, and even bald
eagles resting in our fields.

We are committed to sustainable and organic farming techniques. We
see our farming operation as a "partnership with nature," and would
not continue if rice harvesting resulted in the "death toll" that this hoax
suggests.

-- Kent Lundberg.

Kent Lundberg
Lundberg Family Farms
http://www.lundberg.com


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Old 29-08-2006, 03:59 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

Hello Florida. The message posted was a forward of an email I
received from Kent Lundberg in response to a query collateral
deaths in rice production. You'll find an email address at their site.

"Florida" wrote in message ps.com...
Hey, Kent Lundberg, how are you? We buy your rice. Organic is
good. Interesting that there are no collateral included deaths in
commercial rice production.
I hope you're making some digicam photos or videos of the birds
you're growing along with all the rice.
.
At Lundberg Family Farms, we care deeply for the animals that we share
our fields with. For example, every spring before field work begins, we
search the fields for nests, rescuing eggs for a local incubation
centers (mature pairs re-nest when the nests are disturbed like this).
After hatching, the fledglings are raised and released back into the
wild. Last year, we rescued over 3,000 duck eggs. After harvest, we
flood our fields to provide habitat for winter migratory birds and
waterfowl. They eat the rice that is left in the fields and contribute
fertilizer for next spring. There are autumn days when the sky is
blackened by canadian geese (and the sound is beautiful)! We see ducks,
geese, cranes, rails, pheasants, egrets, herons, swans, and even bald
eagles resting in our fields.

We are committed to sustainable and organic farming techniques. We
see our farming operation as a "partnership with nature," and would
not continue if rice harvesting resulted in the "death toll" that this hoax
suggests.

-- Kent Lundberg.

Kent Lundberg
Lundberg Family Farms
http://www.lundberg.com






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Old 29-08-2006, 05:59 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On 29 Aug 2006 06:11:43 -0700, "Florida" wrote:

Hey, Kent Lundberg, how are you? We buy your rice. Organic is
good. Interesting that there are no collateral included deaths in
commercial rice production.


It's a lie. Obviously pearl wants to promote the lie, but it's a lie
none the less. There are plenty of cds associated with rice
production, and it's contemptible though common "ar" behavior
to try to present the false impression that there are not. But they
attempt to do it because they only care about promoting veganism
and not about human influence on animals...disgusting but true.
That's why pearl didn't correct you and acknowledge that there
are lots of cds involved in rice production...again disgusting but
unarguably true.

The environment goes through this:

http://tinyurl.com/hpq43
http://tinyurl.com/j8v5c
http://tinyurl.com/gplhs
http://tinyurl.com/jom73
http://tinyurl.com/zkw32
http://tinyurl.com/j7lsx

and through this:

http://tinyurl.com/gt56j
http://tinyurl.com/fyh73

and later through this:

http://tinyurl.com/klkfv
http://tinyurl.com/czo32
http://tinyurl.com/fbfcm

and eventually to this:

http://tinyurl.com/epdad
http://tinyurl.com/zupzg
http://tinyurl.com/j5ckj

Even though we don't see photos dedicated to animals
being killed, anyone who knows anything at all about
animals can easily understand how the machinery,
spraying and complete changes of environment kill them.
If any person can't, that necessarily means they have no
understanding at all about how the processes influence
animals, probably because they're afraid to think about
it for some personal reason(s). It undoubtedly shows that
they have no understanding or interest in how humans
influence animals during rice production.
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Old 29-08-2006, 06:00 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:02:46 +0100, "pearl" wrote:

[email protected] wrote in message ...
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother wrote:

wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
Message-ID:


This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay


It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.


"There is an "article" circulating on the Internet that describes how
thousands of frogs and other animals are killed in the mechanized
harvesting of grain crops. This "collateral animal deaths" story is an
elaborate hoax. The author, a "Texas organic rice farmer" is a gifted
writer, but he should use his talents elsewhere.

The author's numbers describe a plague of frogs of biblical
proportions. However, it is questionable if he has even been on a rice
farm. The major point that our author has missed is that rice fields
are harvested dry. The irrigation water is drained, and the ground is
left to dry before the harvesters go out in the field (otherwise, they'd
sink in the mud). There just aren't that many amphibians in the field.


Those who can't survive the dried environment would already
be dead, yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
along. If diderot exagerated, it was to make people aware of the
deaths caused by rice production. There's no doubt that your
source--and especially YOU yourself--are trying to create the false
impression that thousands of animals are not being killed when
they really are. "ara" dishonesty is undoubtedly the more disgusting
and contemptible, inconsiderate and selfish...diderot encourages
people to consider human influence on animals involved in rice
production, while YOU encourage people NOT TO!
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Old 29-08-2006, 11:56 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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pony factory-farmer ~~pearl~~ pasted Lundberg's form letter:

[email protected] wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother
wrote:

wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production
[faq] NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups:
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.anima ls,rec.food.veg
Message-ID:

This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay


It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.


"There is an "article" circulating


Why don't you go watch a harvest yourself, you gullible little sap? Or
is your horse-MARKETING keeping you too busy these days?
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Old 30-08-2006, 03:04 AM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals
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On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:35:02 +0100, brother wrote:

[email protected] wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother wrote:

wrote:
__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
Message-ID:

This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay


It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.


It's the intellectual equivalent of using the evidence from somebody you
met at a bar.

He says he's driven a tractor, thousands of miles. - I can believe that!

Then he says "We have organic as well as conventional farms". Ask
yourself; 'Who is he referring to when he says "we"?'For all I know he
could be referring to the population of Texas.


"the facts, data, assumptions and conclusions, while developed
on two organic rice farms (900 and 160 acres) and one 'conventional'
rice farm of 1340 acres in colorado county, texas" - diderot

If you think the "population of Texas" only has two organic rice
farms and one conventional rice farm in the whole state, you're
incredibly "naive" to say the very least, but for your sake (though
none of the readers' sake) let's hope you're being deliberately
dishonest about that stupid suggestion.

Do you REALLY think that there are more than 5 amphibians in every
square FOOT of rice?


Paste the quote. I believe he was referring to eggs, tadpoles,
and adults. There may be thousands of eggs in one square foot,
and a hundred tadpoles in another...averaging out to 5 or more in
the big picture.

It's a joke that you and other fools have fallen for.


He sells organic rice to vegans. Why would he present info like
that to vegans, if he wasn't confident that they would be too stupid
to appreciate the reality of it even if he did? Obviously he was well
aware that they are, almost certainly from his own personal experience
with them. And now from our own personal experience with them in
these ngs we can see that too. Duh.

There are animal deaths in rice production, but there is no mystical
"green waterfall".


How many deaths do you think there are, and WHY should anyone
take your estimate over that of a rice farmer???


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