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Old 31-08-2006, 06:29 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,misc.rural,,talk.politics.animals
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

Rupert wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
On 30 Aug 2006 01:12:03 -0700, "Rupert" wrote:

[email protected] wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:35:02 +0100, brother wrote:

[email protected] wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother wrote:

__________________________________________________ __________
From: diderot
Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,

This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
It's the intellectual equivalent of using the evidence from somebody you
met at a bar.

He says he's driven a tractor, thousands of miles. - I can believe that!

Then he says "We have organic as well as conventional farms". Ask
yourself; 'Who is he referring to when he says "we"?'For all I know he
could be referring to the population of Texas.
"the facts, data, assumptions and conclusions, while developed
on two organic rice farms (900 and 160 acres) and one 'conventional'
rice farm of 1340 acres in colorado county, texas" - diderot

If you think the "population of Texas" only has two organic rice
farms and one conventional rice farm in the whole state, you're
incredibly "naive" to say the very least, but for your sake (though
none of the readers' sake) let's hope you're being deliberately
dishonest about that stupid suggestion.

Do you REALLY think that there are more than 5 amphibians in every
square FOOT of rice?
Paste the quote. I believe he was referring to eggs, tadpoles,
and adults. There may be thousands of eggs in one square foot,
and a hundred tadpoles in another...averaging out to 5 or more in
the big picture.

It's a pretty big assumption that ethical vegetarians have an ethical
problem with destroying an egg.

LOL! As we can see by the replys, supposedly "ethical" vegetarians
not only don't have an ethical problem with destroying eggs, tadpoles,
frogs, snakes, lizards, and whatever else gets killed in rice production,
but they are OPPOSED to anyone even pointing out that they are!

This is an evasion of the point.

Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
in the course of rice production. Some people here think that Diderot's
account of the matter distorts the truth to some extent and are
responding accordingly.

I was simply pointing out that eggs are not and never have been
sentient. If it significantly affects the calculation to take eggs into
account, he should make explicit that he's doing so, which he didn't.
If you think that the "5 amphibians per square foot" figure can only be
justified by counting eggs, then you're basically admitting that the
figures are being inflated in a misleading way.


The "5 amphibians per square foot" figure came from Bob Sikes, based on
his earlier posting of his FAQ: 0ba2a3

He stated:

"most times, judging from the visible continuious population swimming
across the header, it is somewhere between 30K & 50+K per acre
harvested. a good, reasonable, annualised (but still incredibly
conservative) number of amphibian and anole (and slow, small furry
things) deaths through the combine is 35,000 of all species harvested
per acre, combined average for *two* cuttings. in spite of these
seemingly large numbers, far, far more frogs & lizards escape than are
combined. i would guess that the 35,000 amphibian deaths represents
less than *10-15% of the total population*, and probably considerably
less, but that is just a guess - plenty, plenty, plenty are not killed
.... until that night and the next day, when they disappear almost
totally into the gullets of predators. "

He also states that "an acre has 43,264+ square feet"

So total population = 100%/15% x 35 000 = 233 333

Amphibians per square foot = 233 333 / 43 264 = 5.4. (Over a quarter of
a million frogs on a American football pitch!)

However, I noticed that he's changed his lie to 20% in this latest
revision of his "****ing Awful Quotations (FAQ)", this would give a
total AMPHIBIAN population of 4 per *every* square foot. This is over 4
times higher than the maximum you may expect at a *breeding* site!

It's a lie, and the real telling thing, is that the anti brigade cling
to it, as if it were their life line.