Rupert wrote:
> dh@. wrote:
>> On 30 Aug 2006 01:12:03 -0700, "Rupert" > wrote:
>>
>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:35:02 +0100, brother > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> dh@. wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________ __________
>>>>>>>> From: diderot >
>>>>>>>> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
>>>>>>>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
>>>>>>>> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
>>>>>> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
>>>>> It's the intellectual equivalent of using the evidence from somebody you
>>>>> met at a bar.
>>>>>
>>>>> He says he's driven a tractor, thousands of miles. - I can believe that!
>>>>>
>>>>> Then he says "We have organic as well as conventional farms". Ask
>>>>> yourself; 'Who is he referring to when he says "we"?'For all I know he
>>>>> could be referring to the population of Texas.
>>>> "the facts, data, assumptions and conclusions, while developed
>>>> on two organic rice farms (900 and 160 acres) and one 'conventional'
>>>> rice farm of 1340 acres in colorado county, texas" - diderot
>>>>
>>>> If you think the "population of Texas" only has two organic rice
>>>> farms and one conventional rice farm in the whole state, you're
>>>> incredibly "naive" to say the very least, but for your sake (though
>>>> none of the readers' sake) let's hope you're being deliberately
>>>> dishonest about that stupid suggestion.
>>>>
>>>>> Do you REALLY think that there are more than 5 amphibians in every
>>>>> square FOOT of rice?
>>>> Paste the quote. I believe he was referring to eggs, tadpoles,
>>>> and adults. There may be thousands of eggs in one square foot,
>>>> and a hundred tadpoles in another...averaging out to 5 or more in
>>>> the big picture.
>>>>
>>> It's a pretty big assumption that ethical vegetarians have an ethical
>>> problem with destroying an egg.
>> LOL! As we can see by the replys, supposedly "ethical" vegetarians
>> not only don't have an ethical problem with destroying eggs, tadpoles,
>> frogs, snakes, lizards, and whatever else gets killed in rice production,
>> but they are OPPOSED to anyone even pointing out that they are!
>
> This is an evasion of the point.
>
> Ethical vegetarians usually do think there is some sort of presumption
> against killing sentient animals. You have no reason to think anyone
> here is opposed to people pointing out that sentient animals are killed
> in the course of rice production. Some people here think that Diderot's
> account of the matter distorts the truth to some extent and are
> responding accordingly.
>
> I was simply pointing out that eggs are not and never have been
> sentient. If it significantly affects the calculation to take eggs into
> account, he should make explicit that he's doing so, which he didn't.
> If you think that the "5 amphibians per square foot" figure can only be
> justified by counting eggs, then you're basically admitting that the
> figures are being inflated in a misleading way.
>

Hi,

The "5 amphibians per square foot" figure came from Bob Sikes, based on
his earlier posting of his FAQ:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...cef828 0ba2a3

http://tinyurl.com/gd2by


He stated:


"most times, judging from the visible continuious population swimming
across the header, it is somewhere between 30K & 50+K per acre
harvested. a good, reasonable, annualised (but still incredibly
conservative) number of amphibian and anole (and slow, small furry
things) deaths through the combine is 35,000 of all species harvested
per acre, combined average for *two* cuttings. in spite of these
seemingly large numbers, far, far more frogs & lizards escape than are
combined. i would guess that the 35,000 amphibian deaths represents
less than *10-15% of the total population*, and probably considerably
less, but that is just a guess - plenty, plenty, plenty are not killed
.... until that night and the next day, when they disappear almost
totally into the gullets of predators. "

He also states that "an acre has 43,264+ square feet"

So total population = 100%/15% x 35 000 = 233 333

Amphibians per square foot = 233 333 / 43 264 = 5.4. (Over a quarter of
a million frogs on a American football pitch!)

However, I noticed that he's changed his lie to 20% in this latest
revision of his "****ing Awful Quotations (FAQ)", this would give a
total AMPHIBIAN population of 4 per *every* square foot. This is over 4
times higher than the maximum you may expect at a *breeding* site!

It's a lie, and the real telling thing, is that the anti brigade cling
to it, as if it were their life line.