I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for what
stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
of starter using a cup each of water and flour. This has been working out
well for me.

Krusteaze sells six-packs of assorted bread mixes. This time, I took one of
those packs, cracked wheat, to bake sourdough bread.

Again I used all my starter and prepared a new batch. The instructions
called for 1 cup of water, but I added an extra 2.5 fl oz for the flour
aready in my starter. I added another 2 TBS cracked wheat before kneading in
my bread machine. I stopped the knead before the dough got very sticky. I
put the dough into a ceramic bread pan and stabbed the hell out of it. It
being a nice sunny day, I put the pan in my greenhouse and let it rise for a
few hours checking on it at intervals. When it appeared right, I baked it.

In one word: Delicious.

I really believe that using all of the starter for a loaf rather than a
tablespoon or two has resulted in a better and faster leavening starter.
Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the flour has been
fully eaten.

Bill

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message
...

> Krusteaze sells six-packs of assorted bread mixes.=20
> This time, I took one of those packs, cracked wheat,=20
> to bake sourdough bread.

> Again I used all my starter and prepared a new batch.=20
> The instructions called for 1 cup of water, but I added=20
> an extra 2.5 fl oz for the flour already in my starter.

So you are using your starter to make SD from Krusteaz=20
cracked-wheat BM mix? Did you know that Krusteaz
is selling BM mixes that already make SD?

> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the=20
> flour has been fully eaten.

Who is eating the flour?

With you mentions of Krusteaz mixes, you are making us nostalgic
for "Billy Fish" AKA "Fishy Bill" who posted at r.f.s. about Krusteaz
BM mixes in bygone years. Perhaps you would be interested in=20
searching out some of his posts in the Google archive?=20

--
DickA

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message
...

> Krusteaze sells six-packs of assorted bread mixes.=20
> This time, I took one of those packs, cracked wheat,=20
> to bake sourdough bread.

> Again I used all my starter and prepared a new batch.=20
> The instructions called for 1 cup of water, but I added=20
> an extra 2.5 fl oz for the flour already in my starter.

So you are using your starter to make SD from Krusteaz=20
cracked-wheat BM mix? Did you know that Krusteaz
is selling BM mixes that already make SD?

> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the=20
> flour has been fully eaten.

Who is eating the flour?

With you mentions of Krusteaz mixes, you are making us nostalgic
for "Billy Fish" AKA "Fishy Bill" who posted at r.f.s. about Krusteaz
BM mixes in bygone years. Perhaps you would be interested in=20
searching out some of his posts in the Google archive?=20

--
DickA

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/26/05 11:33 AM:

>
> "Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Krusteaze sells six-packs of assorted bread mixes.
>> This time, I took one of those packs, cracked wheat,
>> to bake sourdough bread.
>
>> Again I used all my starter and prepared a new batch.
>> The instructions called for 1 cup of water, but I added
>> an extra 2.5 fl oz for the flour already in my starter.
>
> So you are using your starter to make SD from Krusteaz
> cracked-wheat BM mix? Did you know that Krusteaz
> is selling BM mixes that already make SD?

I am and I know respectively. Krusteaze's sourdough is faux sourdough using
added acids, and horrors, COMMERCIAL YEAST.
>
>> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the
>> flour has been fully eaten.
>
> Who is eating the flour?

Various yeasties and bacterial beasties.
>
> With you mentions of Krusteaz mixes, you are making us nostalgic
> for "Billy Fish" AKA "Fishy Bill" who posted at r.f.s. about Krusteaz
> BM mixes in bygone years. Perhaps you would be interested in
> searching out some of his posts in the Google archive?

I am exposed! Various changes in ISPs prevented me from using my old name.
And I now thought that you would be pleased with me for avoiding store
bought yeast.

In any event the technique I am using now gives me great bread with sour
taste, good crust, and good leavening in a reasonable time. The only problem
is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded considerably from what it was
during the first few hours.

Bill
>
> --
> DickA
>

>In any event the technique I am using now gives me great bread with
sour
>taste, good crust, and good leavening in a reasonable time. The only
problem
>is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded considerably from what
it was
>during the first few hours.


>Bill

Your bread stales faster? if your bread has lots of crack grains it
will gradually absorb all the moisture from the large amount of
starter you used and hours after your bread has been baked you will
end up with a dry textured bread that has some similarity to stale
bread. It was done properly considering the slow hydration
characteristics of mixed grain breads it will come out still good after
several hours or more.
I think you better moisten the cracked wheat mix and let it hydrate
for some time before adding the rest of the ingredients to it to form
a dough.
If you do not add water to the dough but just rely on the liquid
starter to moisten it you had to add some flour or you have to use a
firmer starer instead to attain the desired dough consistency.
...Then you have an allowance for the moistuer to be added to the
cracked grain mix.
Roy

< I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for
what
stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
of starter using a cup each of water and flour. >

I am somewhat horrified here, only two to three tablespoons of starter per
loaf?
I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
fridge!

How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
of starter?
ye gods and little fishes, no wonder my loaves come out strange!
gw

< I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for
what
stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
of starter using a cup each of water and flour. >

I am somewhat horrified here, only two to three tablespoons of starter per
loaf?
I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
fridge!

How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
of starter?
ye gods and little fishes, no wonder my loaves come out strange!
gw

gw wrote:
> < I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for
> what
> stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
> of starter using a cup each of water and flour. >
>
> I am somewhat horrified here, only two to three tablespoons of starter per
> loaf?

I think you get this wrong.

He uses the old container with remains to grow the starter for the next
batch.

I think he described it before what amounts he uses - probably in the
cup or multiples thereof range.


> I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
> least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
> fridge!
>
> How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
> of starter?

Only with multiple refreshments or an extra long rising time.

No need to freak.

Samartha

gw wrote:
> < I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for
> what
> stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
> of starter using a cup each of water and flour. >
>
> I am somewhat horrified here, only two to three tablespoons of starter per
> loaf?

I think you get this wrong.

He uses the old container with remains to grow the starter for the next
batch.

I think he described it before what amounts he uses - probably in the
cup or multiples thereof range.


> I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
> least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
> fridge!
>
> How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
> of starter?

Only with multiple refreshments or an extra long rising time.

No need to freak.

Samartha

in article
,
Samartha Deva at wrote on 3/26/05 7:36
PM:

> I think you get this wrong.
>
> He uses the old container with remains to grow the starter for the next
> batch.
>
> I think he described it before what amounts he uses - probably in the
> cup or multiples thereof range.
>
>
>> I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
>> least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
>> fridge!
>>
>> How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
>> of starter?

That indeed is what I do. The starter clinging to the container is all I use
to get the next batch of starter going. By having a lot of starter still
fermenting, the leavening time is greatly reduced compared to using only a
few tablespoons of startre that has been out of the fridge for 24 hours or
more.
> Only with multiple refreshments or an extra long rising time.
>
> No need to freak.
>
> Samartha

in article
,
Samartha Deva at wrote on 3/26/05 7:36
PM:

> I think you get this wrong.
>
> He uses the old container with remains to grow the starter for the next
> batch.
>
> I think he described it before what amounts he uses - probably in the
> cup or multiples thereof range.
>
>
>> I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
>> least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
>> fridge!
>>
>> How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
>> of starter?

That indeed is what I do. The starter clinging to the container is all I use
to get the next batch of starter going. By having a lot of starter still
fermenting, the leavening time is greatly reduced compared to using only a
few tablespoons of startre that has been out of the fridge for 24 hours or
more.
> Only with multiple refreshments or an extra long rising time.
>
> No need to freak.
>
> Samartha

>By having a lot of starter still
>fermenting, the leavening time is greatly reduced compared to using
only a
>few tablespoons of startre that has been out of the fridge for 24
hours or
>more.

You are right there I have seen natural sourdoughs leavened with the
final dough flour to starter ratio of 55/45 and it really ferments
and proof really fast as if yeast was added; when the fact is ii was
just 100% naturally leavened!
The bread was very good , iI they want to add mixed whole gtains
such as the five or seven grain variety they have to presoak the grain
well for several hours to overnight preferably in the cold room.
Then when they had finished mixing the bread dough they incorporate the
soaked grains for a few minutes at low speed.


Roy

>By having a lot of starter still
>fermenting, the leavening time is greatly reduced compared to using
only a
>few tablespoons of startre that has been out of the fridge for 24
hours or
>more.

You are right there I have seen natural sourdoughs leavened with the
final dough flour to starter ratio of 55/45 and it really ferments
and proof really fast as if yeast was added; when the fact is ii was
just 100% naturally leavened!
The bread was very good , iI they want to add mixed whole gtains
such as the five or seven grain variety they have to presoak the grain
well for several hours to overnight preferably in the cold room.
Then when they had finished mixing the bread dough they incorporate the
soaked grains for a few minutes at low speed.


Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message =
oups.com...

> ... I have seen natural sourdoughs leavened with the
> final dough flour to starter ratio of 55/45 and it really ferments
> and proof really fast as if yeast was added; when the fact is ii was
> just 100% naturally leavened! ...

Aha!

Could that be taken to mean that the "sponge" method can be applied
to sourdough baking?

"Roy" > wrote in message =
oups.com...

> ... I have seen natural sourdoughs leavened with the
> final dough flour to starter ratio of 55/45 and it really ferments
> and proof really fast as if yeast was added; when the fact is ii was
> just 100% naturally leavened! ...

Aha!

Could that be taken to mean that the "sponge" method can be applied
to sourdough baking?

"Roy" > wrote in message =
oups.com...

> ... I have seen natural sourdoughs leavened with the
> final dough flour to starter ratio of 55/45 and it really ferments
> and proof really fast as if yeast was added; when the fact is ii was
> just 100% naturally leavened! ...

Aha!

Could that be taken to mean that the "sponge" method can be applied
to sourdough baking?

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... I now thought that you would be pleased with me for avoiding =
store
> bought yeast. ...

Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM =
and=20
the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

> The only problem is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded=20
> considerably from what it was during the first few hours.

Consider this: If it could be made to degrade sufficiently =
exothermically
and instantaneously, it could offered to Al Qaeda to promote their=20
causes.

--
DickA

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... I now thought that you would be pleased with me for avoiding =
store
> bought yeast. ...

Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM =
and=20
the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

> The only problem is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded=20
> considerably from what it was during the first few hours.

Consider this: If it could be made to degrade sufficiently =
exothermically
and instantaneously, it could offered to Al Qaeda to promote their=20
causes.

--
DickA

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... I now thought that you would be pleased with me for avoiding =
store
> bought yeast. ...

Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM =
and=20
the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

> The only problem is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded=20
> considerably from what it was during the first few hours.

Consider this: If it could be made to degrade sufficiently =
exothermically
and instantaneously, it could offered to Al Qaeda to promote their=20
causes.

--
DickA

I also don't clean the coffee mug I use to renew my starter; but mine
is thoroughly dried along the edges before it's renewed. Is your's
dried or still moist?

I also don't clean the coffee mug I use to renew my starter; but mine
is thoroughly dried along the edges before it's renewed. Is your's
dried or still moist?

I also don't clean the coffee mug I use to renew my starter; but mine
is thoroughly dried along the edges before it's renewed. Is your's
dried or still moist?

Hmnn....something similar Dick.....but in the normal sponge and dough
breadmaking with bakers yeast s the leavening material.... the ratio is
between the sponge and the dough flour. While in acclerated natural
sourdough baking the baker is modifying the calculation; but it is
between the ratio of the starter weight and the weight of the dough
flour.
Roy

Hmnn....something similar Dick.....but in the normal sponge and dough
breadmaking with bakers yeast s the leavening material.... the ratio is
between the sponge and the dough flour. While in acclerated natural
sourdough baking the baker is modifying the calculation; but it is
between the ratio of the starter weight and the weight of the dough
flour.
Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message =
oups.com...
> Hmnn....something similar Dick.....but in the normal sponge and dough
> breadmaking with bakers yeast s the leavening material.... the ratio =
is
> between the sponge and the dough flour. While in acclerated natural
> sourdough baking the baker is modifying the calculation; but it is
> between the ratio of the starter weight and the weight of the dough
> flour.

Oops, that's more complicated than I ever could have guessed. Looks=20
like it's back to bread at the store for me (since I have no formal =
education
as a baker).

"Roy" > wrote in message =
oups.com...
> Hmnn....something similar Dick.....but in the normal sponge and dough
> breadmaking with bakers yeast s the leavening material.... the ratio =
is
> between the sponge and the dough flour. While in acclerated natural
> sourdough baking the baker is modifying the calculation; but it is
> between the ratio of the starter weight and the weight of the dough
> flour.

Oops, that's more complicated than I ever could have guessed. Looks=20
like it's back to bread at the store for me (since I have no formal =
education
as a baker).

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/27/05 6:27 AM:

> Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
> brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM and
> the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

Why would I want to do that?

Bill

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/27/05 6:27 AM:

> Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
> brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM and
> the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

Why would I want to do that?

Bill

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/27/05 6:27 AM:

> Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
> brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM and
> the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

Why would I want to do that?

Bill

in article , Jonathan
Kandell at wrote on 3/27/05 8:16 AM:

> I also don't clean the coffee mug I use to renew my starter; but mine
> is thoroughly dried along the edges before it's renewed. Is your's
> dried or still moist?

I do not let it dry but have not tried it that way either.

By getting the new starter going immediately I do not forget to do so. If I
refrigerate the new starter by about the time the bread is ready to bake,
the refreshed starter is actively ready to leaven instead of taking time to
renew itself. But I am only guessing.

Bill

in article , Jonathan
Kandell at wrote on 3/27/05 8:16 AM:

> I also don't clean the coffee mug I use to renew my starter; but mine
> is thoroughly dried along the edges before it's renewed. Is your's
> dried or still moist?

I do not let it dry but have not tried it that way either.

By getting the new starter going immediately I do not forget to do so. If I
refrigerate the new starter by about the time the bread is ready to bake,
the refreshed starter is actively ready to leaven instead of taking time to
renew itself. But I am only guessing.

Bill

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/27/05 11:06 AM:

> Oops, that's more complicated than I ever could have guessed. Looks
> like it's back to bread at the store for me (since I have no formal education
> as a baker).

Neither do I.

Bill

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/27/05 11:06 AM:

> Oops, that's more complicated than I ever could have guessed. Looks
> like it's back to bread at the store for me (since I have no formal education
> as a baker).

Neither do I.

Bill

No need to worry Dick.... that calculation is simple enough ..... it
is just a guide to simplify things.... about how much starter is to
use for a certain quantity of dough flour to be able to obtain optimum
rising time...
Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message =
oups.com...

> ... that calculation is simple enough ..... it is just a guide to=20
> simplify things ...

D'ya suppose you could run that calculation by again?

Well, heck, Roy, if you really want to simplify things for all
of us, why don't you put up a simple web site?

Maybe here and there a little interactive spread-sheet
calculator? Like at http://samartha.net/SD/, for instance.

--
DickA

>Well, heck, Roy, if you really want to simplify things for all
>of us, why don't you put up a simple web site?


>Maybe here and there a little interactive spread-sheet
>calculator? Like at http://samartha.net/SD/, for instance.

Thanks for the suggestion Dick....
But I am not always staying on one place .,most of the time.......
.....Indeed ......I had been mulling of creating my own website ....but
definetely not now.... Maybe in the future. when I stop travelling
..... besides, currently I prepare all my electronic communications
including post to any group in my laptop- ( or a desktop replacement
system if you call it<g>) and just connect to the internet when I want
to ...
Roy

>Well, heck, Roy, if you really want to simplify things for all
>of us, why don't you put up a simple web site?


>Maybe here and there a little interactive spread-sheet
>calculator? Like at http://samartha.net/SD/, for instance.

Thanks for the suggestion Dick....
But I am not always staying on one place .,most of the time.......
.....Indeed ......I had been mulling of creating my own website ....but
definetely not now.... Maybe in the future. when I stop travelling
..... besides, currently I prepare all my electronic communications
including post to any group in my laptop- ( or a desktop replacement
system if you call it<g>) and just connect to the internet when I want
to ...
Roy

>Well, heck, Roy, if you really want to simplify things for all
>of us, why don't you put up a simple web site?


>Maybe here and there a little interactive spread-sheet
>calculator? Like at http://samartha.net/SD/, for instance.

Thanks for the suggestion Dick....
But I am not always staying on one place .,most of the time.......
.....Indeed ......I had been mulling of creating my own website ....but
definetely not now.... Maybe in the future. when I stop travelling
..... besides, currently I prepare all my electronic communications
including post to any group in my laptop- ( or a desktop replacement
system if you call it<g>) and just connect to the internet when I want
to ...
Roy

Repeating Rifle wrote:

> I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for what
> stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
> of starter using a cup each of water and flour. This has been working out
> well for me.
>
>...
>
> I really believe that using all of the starter for a loaf rather than a
> tablespoon or two has resulted in a better and faster leavening starter.
> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the flour has been
> fully eaten.
>
> Bill

Sounds like you've worked out a system like mine:
http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

>>>>>>>> change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me <<<<<<<<<<<<

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

Repeating Rifle wrote:

> I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for what
> stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
> of starter using a cup each of water and flour. This has been working out
> well for me.
>
>...
>
> I really believe that using all of the starter for a loaf rather than a
> tablespoon or two has resulted in a better and faster leavening starter.
> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the flour has been
> fully eaten.
>
> Bill

Sounds like you've worked out a system like mine:
http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

>>>>>>>> change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me <<<<<<<<<<<<

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.