I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for what
stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
of starter using a cup each of water and flour. This has been working out
well for me.

Krusteaze sells six-packs of assorted bread mixes. This time, I took one of
those packs, cracked wheat, to bake sourdough bread.

Again I used all my starter and prepared a new batch. The instructions
called for 1 cup of water, but I added an extra 2.5 fl oz for the flour
aready in my starter. I added another 2 TBS cracked wheat before kneading in
my bread machine. I stopped the knead before the dough got very sticky. I
put the dough into a ceramic bread pan and stabbed the hell out of it. It
being a nice sunny day, I put the pan in my greenhouse and let it rise for a
few hours checking on it at intervals. When it appeared right, I baked it.

In one word: Delicious.

I really believe that using all of the starter for a loaf rather than a
tablespoon or two has resulted in a better and faster leavening starter.
Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the flour has been
fully eaten.

Bill

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message
...

> Krusteaze sells six-packs of assorted bread mixes.=20
> This time, I took one of those packs, cracked wheat,=20
> to bake sourdough bread.

> Again I used all my starter and prepared a new batch.=20
> The instructions called for 1 cup of water, but I added=20
> an extra 2.5 fl oz for the flour already in my starter.

So you are using your starter to make SD from Krusteaz=20
cracked-wheat BM mix? Did you know that Krusteaz
is selling BM mixes that already make SD?

> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the=20
> flour has been fully eaten.

Who is eating the flour?

With you mentions of Krusteaz mixes, you are making us nostalgic
for "Billy Fish" AKA "Fishy Bill" who posted at r.f.s. about Krusteaz
BM mixes in bygone years. Perhaps you would be interested in=20
searching out some of his posts in the Google archive?=20

--
DickA

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/26/05 11:33 AM:

>
> "Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Krusteaze sells six-packs of assorted bread mixes.
>> This time, I took one of those packs, cracked wheat,
>> to bake sourdough bread.
>
>> Again I used all my starter and prepared a new batch.
>> The instructions called for 1 cup of water, but I added
>> an extra 2.5 fl oz for the flour already in my starter.
>
> So you are using your starter to make SD from Krusteaz
> cracked-wheat BM mix? Did you know that Krusteaz
> is selling BM mixes that already make SD?

I am and I know respectively. Krusteaze's sourdough is faux sourdough using
added acids, and horrors, COMMERCIAL YEAST.
>
>> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the
>> flour has been fully eaten.
>
> Who is eating the flour?

Various yeasties and bacterial beasties.
>
> With you mentions of Krusteaz mixes, you are making us nostalgic
> for "Billy Fish" AKA "Fishy Bill" who posted at r.f.s. about Krusteaz
> BM mixes in bygone years. Perhaps you would be interested in
> searching out some of his posts in the Google archive?

I am exposed! Various changes in ISPs prevented me from using my old name.
And I now thought that you would be pleased with me for avoiding store
bought yeast.

In any event the technique I am using now gives me great bread with sour
taste, good crust, and good leavening in a reasonable time. The only problem
is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded considerably from what it was
during the first few hours.

Bill
>
> --
> DickA
>

>In any event the technique I am using now gives me great bread with
sour
>taste, good crust, and good leavening in a reasonable time. The only
problem
>is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded considerably from what
it was
>during the first few hours.


>Bill

Your bread stales faster? if your bread has lots of crack grains it
will gradually absorb all the moisture from the large amount of
starter you used and hours after your bread has been baked you will
end up with a dry textured bread that has some similarity to stale
bread. It was done properly considering the slow hydration
characteristics of mixed grain breads it will come out still good after
several hours or more.
I think you better moisten the cracked wheat mix and let it hydrate
for some time before adding the rest of the ingredients to it to form
a dough.
If you do not add water to the dough but just rely on the liquid
starter to moisten it you had to add some flour or you have to use a
firmer starer instead to attain the desired dough consistency.
...Then you have an allowance for the moistuer to be added to the
cracked grain mix.
Roy

< I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for
what
stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
of starter using a cup each of water and flour. >

I am somewhat horrified here, only two to three tablespoons of starter per
loaf?
I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
fridge!

How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
of starter?
ye gods and little fishes, no wonder my loaves come out strange!
gw

gw wrote:
> < I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for
> what
> stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
> of starter using a cup each of water and flour. >
>
> I am somewhat horrified here, only two to three tablespoons of starter per
> loaf?

I think you get this wrong.

He uses the old container with remains to grow the starter for the next
batch.

I think he described it before what amounts he uses - probably in the
cup or multiples thereof range.


> I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
> least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
> fridge!
>
> How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
> of starter?

Only with multiple refreshments or an extra long rising time.

No need to freak.

Samartha

gw wrote:
> < I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for
> what
> stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
> of starter using a cup each of water and flour. >
>
> I am somewhat horrified here, only two to three tablespoons of starter per
> loaf?

I think you get this wrong.

He uses the old container with remains to grow the starter for the next
batch.

I think he described it before what amounts he uses - probably in the
cup or multiples thereof range.


> I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
> least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
> fridge!
>
> How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
> of starter?

Only with multiple refreshments or an extra long rising time.

No need to freak.

Samartha

< I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for
what
stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
of starter using a cup each of water and flour. >

I am somewhat horrified here, only two to three tablespoons of starter per
loaf?
I have to make refreshers of two cups or more, and then put half of that (at
least a cup plus refresher of another cup of flour and water) away in the
fridge!

How does one make a loaf of bread without extra yeast with only a tablespoon
of starter?
ye gods and little fishes, no wonder my loaves come out strange!
gw

"Roy" > wrote in news:1111874578.947093.213790
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>>In any event the technique I am using now gives me great bread with
> sour
>>taste, good crust, and good leavening in a reasonable time. The only
> problem
>>is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded considerably from what
> it was
>>during the first few hours.
>
>
>>Bill
>
> Your bread stales faster? if your bread has lots of crack grains it
> will gradually absorb all the moisture from the large amount of
> starter you used and hours after your bread has been baked you will
> end up with a dry textured bread that has some similarity to stale
> bread. It was done properly considering the slow hydration
> characteristics of mixed grain breads it will come out still good after
> several hours or more.
> I think you better moisten the cracked wheat mix and let it hydrate
> for some time before adding the rest of the ingredients to it to form
> a dough.
> If you do not add water to the dough but just rely on the liquid
> starter to moisten it you had to add some flour or you have to use a
> firmer starer instead to attain the desired dough consistency.
> ..Then you have an allowance for the moistuer to be added to the
> cracked grain mix.
> Roy
>

Hey, Roy, how long would you recommend soaking the cracked wheat before
kneading it in? How do you account for the moisture of the hydrated
cracked wheat in the water requirement of the recipe?

Bill, Samartha has commented that bread starts going stale as soon as you
remove it from the oven. Well, maybe it starts as soon as it cools.

I've found it wise to seal any extra loaves in heavy plastic as soon as
they're cool and pop them in the freezer. I've done the same with half a
loaf when I know I won't polish off the full loaf in a day or two.

Freezing the bread is an excellent strategy for people who like to bake a
week or two's bread, or who travel. When you're away from home and
yearning for a bite of sourdough bread, you can have the wife Fed-Ex you
a loaf. It's a tad expensive, but when money is no object...

Gonorio

>Hey, Roy, how long would you recommend soaking the cracked wheat
before
>kneading it in?

Ola Gonorio ( el mucho)Dineri<g>?
I have already stated it in my previous posts; please try to review it.

> How do you account for the moisture of the hydrated
>cracked wheat in the water requirement of the recipe?

A baker need not worry being precise in quantifying the amount of
water in the soaked grain in the same way an accountant does in
balancing his books to be accurate to a cent.<g>
Here ....Its just based on pure commonsense......And also unsoaked
grains present in the bread is hard for the teeth to chew and can
help abrade the tooth enamel.
You do not soak the grain and just add it to the dough then you, then
you will end up with a dough that dries faster due to moisture
migration (from the dough to the seeds); but if you pre soak the
grains then the so called moisture transfer will be minimized (if
not prevented).

>Bill, Samartha has commented that bread starts going stale as soon as
you
>remove it from the oven.

That is what every freshly baked bread does following the
thermodynamic law or entropy<g>.There are no exceptions.
Therefore the only possible way the baker does, is to slow the staling
process by producing a moist and good textured bread..

A properly baked multi grain bread made from a dough with presoaked
grains stays moist longer than a similar bread dough that uses the
grains without being prehydrated.
Going back to the original issue....
The problem here is that the original poster question is how comes his
bread (appear to ) feel and taste stale after a few hours when others
don't.
Therefore its not actually stale but drier in texture which can be
comparable to a stale bread.
Therefore I suggest a means to improve its texture.
Ciao

Roy

in article , Gonorio Dineri at
wrote on 4/1/05 9:22 AM:

> Hey, Roy, how long would you recommend soaking the cracked wheat before
> kneading it in? How do you account for the moisture of the hydrated
> cracked wheat in the water requirement of the recipe?
>
> Bill, Samartha has commented that bread starts going stale as soon as you
> remove it from the oven. Well, maybe it starts as soon as it cools.
>
> I've found it wise to seal any extra loaves in heavy plastic as soon as
> they're cool and pop them in the freezer. I've done the same with half a
> loaf when I know I won't polish off the full loaf in a day or two.
>
> Freezing the bread is an excellent strategy for people who like to bake a
> week or two's bread, or who travel. When you're away from home and
> yearning for a bite of sourdough bread, you can have the wife Fed-Ex you
> a loaf. It's a tad expensive, but when money is no object...

I just baked another sourdough bread using the same technique. It rose most
of the way overnight. I gave the dough more time in a warmed over oven. All
in all, I estimate an increase of the volume to be a factor of four.

Part of what I like about my bread is the crunchyness of the seeds and
cracked grain that I add. Would soaking these additions cause the crunchies
to dissappear? Even if the bread does go downhill somewhat, a little bit of
toasting makes it almost new again. And by the time toasting does not help,
the bread is mostly gone.

Bill

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... I now thought that you would be pleased with me for avoiding =
store
> bought yeast. ...

Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM =
and=20
the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

> The only problem is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded=20
> considerably from what it was during the first few hours.

Consider this: If it could be made to degrade sufficiently =
exothermically
and instantaneously, it could offered to Al Qaeda to promote their=20
causes.

--
DickA

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/27/05 6:27 AM:

> Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
> brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM and
> the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

Why would I want to do that?

Bill

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/27/05 6:27 AM:

> Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
> brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM and
> the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

Why would I want to do that?

Bill

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 3/27/05 6:27 AM:

> Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
> brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM and
> the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

Why would I want to do that?

Bill

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... I now thought that you would be pleased with me for avoiding =
store
> bought yeast. ...

Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM =
and=20
the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

> The only problem is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded=20
> considerably from what it was during the first few hours.

Consider this: If it could be made to degrade sufficiently =
exothermically
and instantaneously, it could offered to Al Qaeda to promote their=20
causes.

--
DickA

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... I now thought that you would be pleased with me for avoiding =
store
> bought yeast. ...

Of course! We are very pleased. And now it can be hoped that another
brief interval in geologic time will bring the realization that the ABM =
and=20
the Krusteaz mix can also be avoided.

> The only problem is that after 24 hours the bread has degraded=20
> considerably from what it was during the first few hours.

Consider this: If it could be made to degrade sufficiently =
exothermically
and instantaneously, it could offered to Al Qaeda to promote their=20
causes.

--
DickA

"Repeating Rifle" > wrote in message
...

> Krusteaze sells six-packs of assorted bread mixes.=20
> This time, I took one of those packs, cracked wheat,=20
> to bake sourdough bread.

> Again I used all my starter and prepared a new batch.=20
> The instructions called for 1 cup of water, but I added=20
> an extra 2.5 fl oz for the flour already in my starter.

So you are using your starter to make SD from Krusteaz=20
cracked-wheat BM mix? Did you know that Krusteaz
is selling BM mixes that already make SD?

> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the=20
> flour has been fully eaten.

Who is eating the flour?

With you mentions of Krusteaz mixes, you are making us nostalgic
for "Billy Fish" AKA "Fishy Bill" who posted at r.f.s. about Krusteaz
BM mixes in bygone years. Perhaps you would be interested in=20
searching out some of his posts in the Google archive?=20

--
DickA

Repeating Rifle wrote:

> I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for what
> stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
> of starter using a cup each of water and flour. This has been working out
> well for me.
>
>...
>
> I really believe that using all of the starter for a loaf rather than a
> tablespoon or two has resulted in a better and faster leavening starter.
> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the flour has been
> fully eaten.
>
> Bill

Sounds like you've worked out a system like mine:
http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

>>>>>>>> change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me <<<<<<<<<<<<

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

"carlDOTwest" > wrote in message =
...

> Sounds like you've worked out a system like mine:
> http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html

Hey, that is neat!

Now why can't we persuade Roy and the rest of the long-winded
SD philosophers and poets to render their comments and proposals
in such concise and inflatable form.

--
DickA

"carlDOTwest" > wrote in message =
...

> Sounds like you've worked out a system like mine:
> http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html

Hey, that is neat!

Now why can't we persuade Roy and the rest of the long-winded
SD philosophers and poets to render their comments and proposals
in such concise and inflatable form.

--
DickA

"carlDOTwest" > wrote in message =
...

> Sounds like you've worked out a system like mine:
> http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html

Hey, that is neat!

Now why can't we persuade Roy and the rest of the long-winded
SD philosophers and poets to render their comments and proposals
in such concise and inflatable form.

--
DickA

Repeating Rifle wrote:

> I had posted previously on how I was using all of my starter except for what
> stuck to the container and how I was using those remains for my next batch
> of starter using a cup each of water and flour. This has been working out
> well for me.
>
>...
>
> I really believe that using all of the starter for a loaf rather than a
> tablespoon or two has resulted in a better and faster leavening starter.
> Moreover, I put the starter in my refrigerator before the flour has been
> fully eaten.
>
> Bill

Sounds like you've worked out a system like mine:
http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

>>>>>>>> change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me <<<<<<<<<<<<

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.