In a message dated 12/05/07 11:43:51, writes:


> Isn't that the point - maintaining a healthy starter?
>
> BTW, this morning at 6 AM I _finally_ saw the entire mixture (both the bread
> flour and whole wheat flour) creating bubbles throughout - meaning there was
> no separation as I had before. This has been almost 5 full days since the
> beginning rush and collapse of these starters.
>
> I don't know what I did differently except feed it when I saw liquid
> starting to form on the top. This turned out to be approximately 12 hours
> from each feeding.
>
> I still have yet to see a real sponge appearance of the starter. If I have
> that, then I know I finally have the yeast for which I have been hoping.
>
> After that it is all about maintainence.
>
You are using a 1/1 BY VOLUME ratio of water/flour. That means you have a
hydration of 188%. At that hydration the water will always separate since the
flour cannot hold that much water. There is nothing wrong with this
hydration, I use it myself.

Now to get a sponge that will rise you need to add enough flour to the equal
volume starter that you have to get an equal weigh starter.

If you have equal volume starter (equal volumes of flour and water) and you
need equal weight starter (equal weights of flour and water), take one cup of
starter (9 oz.) and add 2/3 cup (2.8 oz.) of flour. Mix well and thereafter
add 1 cup (8 oz,) of water and 1 3/4 cup (8 oz.) of flour (or multiples of
same) to refresh the starter.

I will bet that your starter will now double or even triple in volume within
6 hours. Use a container large enough to handle this increase in volume.


Resident Conservative Curmudgeon

Ford



**************************************
Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.

(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-pro...00030000000001)

Hi there,

I happened to stumble across this forum a few days ago - and have been
this thread on starting a sourdough from scratch - which I have been
trying to do myself with little success. After following your story
for a few days I'm encouraged, and may try again...

My first two attempts ended up with a quickly rising, but horribly
nasty smelling bowl of stringy goo. Now, however, I think I may not
have been feeding often enough (every 24 hours) and might need to try
and stick it out past the third day to see if the smell improves at
all.

I am using Gold Medal all purpose white flour in a 1 cup water to 1
cup flour ratio to start, discarding half at each feeding.

I do have a working starter that someone gave me, and have been using
it successfully for about a year. Judging from the way that one acts
- doubling itself in about 12 hours when fed, and having a pleasantly
sour aroma - I have not yet gotten a "wild" starter from scratch.

This also being the middle of winter in a somewhat northerly climate
where I am, I'm wondering if the lack of moisture in the air might
mean fewer "critters" to populate my mix, leaving it more vulnerable
to whatever other bacteria might be floating around. Does anyone know
how much bearing climate/location would have on getting a sourdough
started? Maybe I should try again in the summer?

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Stacey


On Dec 5, 3:13 pm, "joe" > wrote:
> > wrote in messagenews:mailman.11.1196885962.60073.rec.food.s ...
>
> In a message dated 12/05/07 11:43:51, writes:
>
> Isn't that the point - maintaining a healthy starter?
>
> BTW, this morning at 6 AM I _finally_ saw the entire mixture (both the bread
> flour and whole wheat flour) creating bubbles throughout - meaning there was
> no separation as I had before. This has been almost 5 full days since the
> beginning rush and collapse of these starters.
>
> I don't know what I did differently except feed it when I saw liquid
> starting to form on the top. This turned out to be approximately 12 hours
> from each feeding.
>
> I still have yet to see a real sponge appearance of the starter. If I have
> that, then I know I finally have the yeast for which I have been hoping.
>
> After that it is all about maintainence.
>
> You are using a 1/1 BY VOLUME ratio of water/flour. That means you have a hydration of 188%. At that hydration the water will always separate since the flour cannot hold that much water. There is nothing wrong with this hydration, I use it myself.
>
> Now to get a sponge that will rise you need to add enough flour to the equal volume starter that you have to get an equal weigh starter.
>
> If you have equal volume starter (equal volumes of flour and water) and you need equal weight starter (equal weights of flour and water), take one cup of starter (9 oz.) and add 2/3 cup (2.8 oz.) of flour. Mix well and thereafter add 1 cup (8 oz,) of water and 1 3/4 cup (8 oz.) of flour (or multiples of same) to refresh the starter.
>
> I will bet that your starter will now double or even triple in volume within 6 hours. Use a container large enough to handle this increase in volume.
>
> Resident Conservative Curmudgeon
>
> Ford
>
> **************************************
> Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products.
> (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-pro...00030000000001)
>
> As of 7 PM the starter is beginning to look like the starter I posted on ImageShack.us. Since I have a working system, namely by weight: 1:1:1 in 2 oz. quantities, then I am going to stick with it. This thread pointed out that I had no recipe and no regimen. Now I do - every 12 hours I feed my starter 1:1:1 by 2 oz. If and when it looks like the image I posted then I will take a photo of mine and do the same ... proudly joining the ranks of people who now to keep a water and flour mixture happy.
>
> --
> thx!
> -joe
> ___________________________________
> my bread:http://www.joesbread.com/
> my faith:http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/jbc33/

Hi Stacey,

Stacey wrote:
> My first two attempts ended up with a quickly rising, but horribly
> nasty smelling bowl of stringy goo. Now, however, I think I may not
> have been feeding often enough (every 24 hours) and might need to try
> and stick it out past the third day to see if the smell improves at
> all.
>

When you mix flour and water, you are encouraging a wild mix of yeast
and bacteria to start growing. And they all will. It's kind of like
starting a yard in a new subdivision. All sorts of weeds will pop up.
If you want a good natural yard, the answer is simple. Water often and
mow very regularly. Most weeds don't like being cut down. Most of the
grasses we want like to be watered regularly. That yard will become
presentable over time. It IS faster to just sod or seed. Like it's
faster to use yeast or get a working starter from a someone.

The equivalents in the starter are to feed regularly and enough. I like
to feed my starter twice a day, enough to double its size, and a mix of
1 part flour to 1 part water by weight, or 2 parts water to 3 parts of
flour by volume. Or, for 1/2 cup of starter, I add about 1/4 cup of
water and 3/8 cup of flour.

As the sourdough bacteria becomes more dominant, it will increase the
acidity of the starter and produce 50 different compounds we have
identified that which will make the starter inhospitable for most other
bacteria and yeast. Discard and feed. And repeat. During this
process, all sorts of strange yeasts and bacteria will try to take over
the culture. Keep feeding the starter and the undesired ones will be
killed off.

It is easier to start the starter with a whole grain wheat or rye
flour. I usually feed a new starter with whole wheat or rye two or
three times and then switch over to the flours I will want to use.
White flours have had almost all of the bran removed, and the bran is
where the wild yeasts and bacteria are found.
> This also being the middle of winter in a somewhat northerly climate
> where I am, I'm wondering if the lack of moisture in the air might
> mean fewer "critters" to populate my mix, leaving it more vulnerable
> to whatever other bacteria might be floating around. Does anyone know
> how much bearing climate/location would have on getting a sourdough
> started? Maybe I should try again in the summer?
>

I hope you are covering your starters with saran wrap. All if the
studies I've read suggest that while it is possible to "catch a starter
from the air," the critters you want are already present in much higher
concentration on the grain. Dr. Ed Wood in his "World Sourdoughs From
Antiquity" recounted his attempt to capture a native starter in Egypt.
He had a quantity of flour irradiated so it was sterile. He put out
many containers to catch cultures in Egypt. And had more than a 90%
failure rate. Some folks who used to hang around here tried a poor
man's approach to sterilizing the flour - they poured boiling water on
it. And these folks who thought nothing of starting a starter and who
counted on a viable starter in a few days found that they too had more
than a 90% failure rate. When you use whole grains, you get a 95+%
success rate. When you use white flour, the success rate drops - a few
people here say they've never been able to start a good starter from
white flour. And when you sterilize the flour, the success rate drops
to less than10%. All of which holds up the idea that the critters are
on the flour.

If you cover the starter container with saran wrap, the container will
contain the humidity and the starter won't dry out and it will do just fine.

Temperature is another issue. I'd suggest something in the mid 70's to
low 80's Fahrenheit. I usually find I can turn on my oven light and
that will hold the temperature about right during the winter months.

Hope this helps,
Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Angels
Who guard you
When you drive
Usually
Retire at 65
Burma-Shave

Wow, didn't expect anyone to be up at this time of night- thanks for
the reply.

The analogy of the yard is a good one, that makes a lot of sense.

> The equivalents in the starter are to feed regularly and enough. I like
> to feed my starter twice a day, enough to double its size, and a mix of
> 1 part flour to 1 part water by weight, or 2 parts water to 3 parts of
> flour by volume. Or, for 1/2 cup of starter, I add about 1/4 cup of
> water and 3/8 cup of flour.

I also use a 2:3 ratio when feeding my established starter, and either
use it or feed again every 12 hours when I have it out, but thought
that a new starter needed more time and water in the beginning. After
reading Joe's posts and the responses to them, I realized that is
probably wasn't true.

> During this
> process, all sorts of strange yeasts and bacteria will try to take over
> the culture. Keep feeding the starter and the undesired ones will be
> killed off.

It sounds like I may have been nearly there before - I will give it
longer this time to give the yeast a chance to fight its way to the
top of the heap.

> It is easier to start the starter with a whole grain wheat or rye
> flour.

I do happen to have some hand-milled wheat flour, though it has been
sitting a while I could give it a try...

> I hope you are covering your starters with saran wrap.

I did with the first one, used a towel with the second one, will go
back to the plastic.

> If you cover the starter container with saran wrap, the container will
> contain the humidity and the starter won't dry out and it will do just fine.
>
> Temperature is another issue. I'd suggest something in the mid 70's to
> low 80's Fahrenheit. I usually find I can turn on my oven light and
> that will hold the temperature about right during the winter months.

That one might be a little tricky, as my oven doesn't have a light,
and our house temp varies somewhere between 62 and 76 deg. F depending
on whether we are at home. Hopefully increasing feeding schedule and
changing flour types will help enough to get things going.

> Hope this helps,

That helps a ton! I will mix up a new batch tonight and see how it
goes.

Thanks much,
Stacey

Hi again,

> Wow, didn't expect anyone to be up at this time of night- thanks for
> the reply.
>

I shouldn't be.....
> The analogy of the yard is a good one, that makes a lot of sense.
>
>
>> The equivalents in the starter are to feed regularly and enough. I like
>> to feed my starter twice a day, enough to double its size, and a mix of
>> 1 part flour to 1 part water by weight, or 2 parts water to 3 parts of
>> flour by volume. Or, for 1/2 cup of starter, I add about 1/4 cup of
>> water and 3/8 cup of flour.
>>
>
> I also use a 2:3 ratio when feeding my established starter, and either
> use it or feed again every 12 hours when I have it out, but thought
> that a new starter needed more time and water in the beginning. After
> reading Joe's posts and the responses to them, I realized that is
> probably wasn't true.
>

Some people don't feed their starters until they show signs of life.
I've realized that may not be the best way to go. If you look at
Professor Calvel's approach to starting a starter
(http://www.sourdoughhome.com/profess...lsstarter.html) he does go a
bit longer than twice a day for the first feeding, but he starts feeding
early and often. (That is also a stiffer starter, so it is a bit slower
and a bit more powerful.) Not feeding your starter until it shows signs
of life is a lot like not feeding your kids until they make the honor
roll.... except no one will come into your house to take your starter
away from you.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Speed
Was high
Weather was not
Tires were thin
X marks the spot
Burma-Shave

joe wrote:
> hi Stacey,
>
> Welcome to the thread... it almost faded into non-activity but a few
> ppl picked up the ball and it's still rolling.
>
> First let me fill you in what I found out about posting in newsgroups
> (ng):

You apparently forgot the part about trimming a reply appropriately, and
not quoting the entire thread of messages.

B/

"joe" > wrote in message ...

> [ ... ]

> Welcome to the thread... it almost faded into non-activity but a few ppl
> picked up the ball and it's still rolling.

Mired down in guk, I'd say.

Passion to muck starter surpasses all bounds.

You could get some Carl's and follow the instructions at the web
site. But that is hard to find, and takes some work (prepare and
send a SASE) and time (wait weeks). Here is a fast way, and
pretty cheap: http://tinyurl.com/6vm9g

Well, I guess if nobody strangled in their starter, there'd not be
need for constant commiseration, and the r.f.s. traffic would vanish
entirely.

--
Dicky

P.S. White flour, particularly bleached-, is essentially devoid of
organisms which might start a sourdough culture, and so is the
atmosphere most places. God only knows what is in whole-grain
flours, particularly "organic", particularly rye.

Hi Joe,


> First let me fill you in what I found out about posting in newsgroups (ng):
> 1) read the faq. It is titled: rec.food.sourdough FAQ Questions and Answers,

Found it- ought to keep me busy for a while....

Thanks for the tips on format. As I'm sure you can tell, I'm cutting
my teeth on posting in this type of environment, and it's nice to know
what the local etiquette is.


> 3) I would like to recommend that you switch to a weight recipe. Weights are
> more objective than volumes.

Might end up doing this, but will need to find a decent scale first,
so will have to stick to doing things by volume for now.

> Have you found Samartha Deva's site? I recommend it for all things
> sourdough.

Ran out of steam and went to bed shortly after my second post last
night, sorry. I will see if I can find that name tonight in my
travels. Do you have her web address by chance?

>
> Once again, welcome to the ng.

Thanks
Stacey

Stacey wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
>
>> First let me fill you in what I found out about posting in newsgroups (ng):
>> 1) read the faq. It is titled: rec.food.sourdough FAQ Questions and Answers,
>
> Found it- ought to keep me busy for a while....
>
> Thanks for the tips on format. As I'm sure you can tell, I'm cutting
> my teeth on posting in this type of environment, and it's nice to know
> what the local etiquette is.
>
>
>> 3) I would like to recommend that you switch to a weight recipe. Weights are
>> more objective than volumes.
>
> Might end up doing this, but will need to find a decent scale first,
> so will have to stick to doing things by volume for now.
>
>> Have you found Samartha Deva's site? I recommend it for all things
>> sourdough.
>
> Ran out of steam and went to bed shortly after my second post last
> night, sorry. I will see if I can find that name tonight in my
> travels. Do you have her web address by chance?
>
>> Once again, welcome to the ng.
>
> Thanks
> Stacey

"His" : http://www.samartha.net

Dave

> Some people don't feed their starters until they show signs of life.
> I've realized that may not be the best way to go. If you look at
> Professor Calvel's approach to starting a starter
> (http://www.sourdoughhome.com/profess...lsstarter.html) he does go a
> bit longer than twice a day for the first feeding, but he starts feeding
> early and often. (That is also a stiffer starter, so it is a bit slower
> and a bit more powerful.) Not feeding your starter until it shows signs
> of life is a lot like not feeding your kids until they make the honor
> roll.... except no one will come into your house to take your starter
> away from you.

Well, there are about as many methods for doing anything as there are
people. I figure you might as well listen at least once to everyone,
and then pick something and give it a try. What you described was
fairly close to what I already do with my established starter, so it
makes sense to me. Time will tell over the course of the next week
whether this particular method will work with my location and setup.
I suspect cool house temperatures may prolong things a bit, but if the
white flour I tried before caught enough critters to start doing
something, I will hold out hope for this one as well.

Current battle plan calls for:

Stoneware bowl, plastic scraper for stirring
Feeding morning and night
3/8 c Hand milled wheat flour to
1/4 c pitcher-filtered water, room temp.
Saran wrap cover
Bowl standing at room temp on the kitchen counter

This water to flour ratio turned out to be a lot stiffer than I
expected, but that may be because I've never tried wheat flour in my
other starter. the surface seems to be evenly moist however, so I
will probably leave things the way they are for the sake of
consistency in the current experiment.

We'll see how it goes....

Thanks,
Stacey

Stacey wrote:
> This water to flour ratio turned out to be a lot stiffer than I
> expected, but that may be because I've never tried wheat flour in my
> other starter. the surface seems to be evenly moist however, so I
> will probably leave things the way they are for the sake of
> consistency in the current experiment.
>
>
Whole grain flours will absorb a lot more water than refined flours.
However, when the starters show signs of life, they will get a bit
thinner. Also, after a few days, you can switch to white flour if you
prefer.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Windows NT: No Thanks; Not Trusted, Not Today, Not Tomorrow.

> "His" :http://www.samartha.net

Ack... sorry for the confusion... but thanks for the link.

> Whole grain flours will absorb a lot more water than refined flours.
> However, when the starters show signs of life, they will get a bit
> thinner. Also, after a few days, you can switch to white flour if you
> prefer.

The only reason I never tried whole grain flour was because I read
somewhere that the bran isn't metabolized by the yeast, and will
eventually rot if not used regularly. Since I am a weekend baker, I
went for the supposedly better storage capability of the white flour.

If I get a starter going on this flour, I may go ahead and maintain it
for a while this way and see what kind of loaf it makes.

Stacey

Well I went to feed this morning, and my fledgling starter is
definitely in the "smells pungent" stage. Thought I detected a little
stronger aroma yesterday, but wasn't sure... So, despite my worries
about the flour being too old, looks like there was something in there
after all.

Thanks again for all of the links yesterday - between Mike's page,
Samartha's site, and the FAQ I'm going to have a bit to read this
week.

Stacey