"Sourdough is teeming with bugs‹some 50 million yeasts and 5 billion
lactobacilli bacteria in every teaspoon of starter dough.

About 34 years ago, Frank Sugihara recalls, he and Leo Kline, a fellow
microbiologist, set out to "solve the mystery of San Francisco
sourdough." The two scientists were working with baker's yeast in a Bay
Area lab run by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, so perhaps it was
inevitable they'd wind up studying San Francisco's signature bread.
This crusty loaf, with its chewy bite and sharp acidulated tang, was a
long way from Wonder Bread, and few tourists left the airport without a
loaf. Local lore attributed the bread to Basque migrants from the
Pyrenees who arrived in San Francisco during the gold rush. Local
bakers swore that no one could reproduce it outside a 50-mile radius of
the city. When they gave dough to bakeries elsewhere, it inexplicably
lost its "sour." But was it‹is it‹truly unique?

Sugihara laughs. "It's hard to say."...

http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-0...featscienceof/

Cheers,

Darrell

--
To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet2 (at)
telus.net

"Darrell Greenwood" > wrote in message
lid...
>
> "Sourdough is teeming with bugs > lactobacilli bacteria in every teaspoon
of starter dough.
snip
> http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-0...featscienceof/
>
> Cheers,
>
> Darrell
Excellent article. Thanks for sharing.
Janet

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 22:17:54 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>> http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-0...featscienceof/

>Excellent article. Thanks for sharing.

But does it resolve the issue of how "natural" starters become
activated initially? There appears to be some contorversy over whether
the initial organisms are found solely in the flour, solely in the
atmosphere, or both.

I can attest to the fact that I was unable to activate several
attempts with atmospheric organisms. My kitchen must be free of them -
or at least it was before I began using active starters.

I was, however, able to activate two starters with only flour. I tried
to maintain strict sanitation protocols, like chemists use in the lab,
so I believe the activation had to be the result of organisms in the
flour, especially since it appeared that there were none in the
atmosphere back then.

Does that mean when people expose a flour-water mixture to the
atmosphere, they are being deceived as to the source of activation?

Thanks for the link. Very good article.
Tamar

On 23 Nov 2003 15:00:30 GMT, ospam (MarDarTK) wrote:

>Thanks for the link. Very good article.

Except the part about starter organisms originating solely from
baker's hands.

On 23 Nov 2003 at 15:25, Bob wrote:

> On 23 Nov 2003 15:00:30 GMT, ospam (MarDarTK) wrote:

> >Thanks for the link. Very good article.

> Except the part about starter organisms originating solely from
> baker's hands.

The origons of yeast are pretty well understood. They are everywhere.
In the air. On the grain. On the baker's skin. The concentration is
highest in the grain, so the chances or probabilities favor the grain
being the source of the yeast.

The picture is somewhat less clear with regards to the lactobacillus
bacteria. It isn't usually found on grain or in the air. It isn't found in
water. It is found on human skin. And in human dental plaque. Some
people have started sourdough starters by spitting into the flour and
water mixture. (Look at google groups and search the
rec.food.sourdough archives. It's there.)

Sourdough, like aspirin, is an old technology, and as a result not much
is spent to investigate it in a scientific way. Frank Sugihara, Dr.
Brummer, and a few others do research... but since it works without
having to understand it, and since research is unlikely to make much
money, not as much research has been, or is being, done as we might
like.

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
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What's in
Your mind
Burma-Shave

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:49:22 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> wrote:

>> Except the part about starter organisms originating solely from
>> baker's hands.

>The origons of yeast are pretty well understood. They are everywhere.
>In the air. On the grain. On the baker's skin. The concentration is
>highest in the grain, so the chances or probabilities favor the grain
>being the source of the yeast.

Then how come I could not get atmosphere-based starters to activate. I
tried 4 different flours and not one of them got past the stage of
outgassing a little.

But when I used the only thing that worked, namely, a freshly-milled,
organic whole wheat flour that was not exposed to the atmosphere, I
had vigorous activity in a few hours.

I made sourdough bread from that particular starter and it is pretty
good considering that I am an amateur at this business of sourdough
baking. The final rise was substantial and it made nice holes in the
crumb, plus it had a chewy texture and a moderately strong sour taste.
I am letting it do whatever it does when it rests under refrigeration.
I am feeding it once a week by retaining 1/2 cup and adding 1/2 cup
flour and 1/2 cup distilled water, like people advise to do.

>The picture is somewhat less clear with regards to the lactobacillus
>bacteria. It isn't usually found on grain or in the air. It isn't found in
>water. It is found on human skin. And in human dental plaque. Some
>people have started sourdough starters by spitting into the flour and
>water mixture. (Look at google groups and search the
>rec.food.sourdough archives. It's there.)

<BARF>

Remind me to avoid that baker's sourdough.

Why not lace the starter with some buttermilk or yogurt?

I bought some SF SD starter from King Arthur Flour that is made in
France and asked them what the ingredients are. They said yeast,
bacteria and lactose. So why not put lactose in the new culture to
promote lactobacillus formation?

>Sourdough, like aspirin, is an old technology, and as a result not much
>is spent to investigate it in a scientific way. Frank Sugihara, Dr.
>Brummer, and a few others do research... but since it works without
>having to understand it, and since research is unlikely to make much
>money, not as much research has been, or is being, done as we might
>like.

Pity.

On 23 Nov 2003 at 19:35, Bob wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:49:22 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> > wrote:

> >> Except the part about starter organisms originating solely from
> >> baker's hands.

> >The origons of yeast are pretty well understood. They are
> >everywhere. In the air. On the grain. On the baker's skin. The
> >concentration is highest in the grain, so the chances or
> >probabilities favor the grain being the source of the yeast.

> Then how come I could not get atmosphere-based starters to activate. I
> tried 4 different flours and not one of them got past the stage of
> outgassing a little.

It's been a while since I read Dr. Wood's book, but as I recall he
sterilized his flour with intense radiation and then started many, many
cultures in Egypt to try to re-create the bakeries and cultures used in
the time of the pyramids. And most of the cultures failed. And he's an
expert.

It's a question of probabilities. Darrell has the relative denisities of
microorganisms in the air, on grain, and in a starter. They lowest
density is in the air by many orders of magnitude. Grain has to be
coddled along to start a starter. And then, of course, you're also in
Houston, a petro-chemical hell. There's no telling what you have in the
air there. But most of it probably isn't alive.

> But when I used the only thing that worked, namely, a freshly-milled,
> organic whole wheat flour that was not exposed to the atmosphere, I
> had vigorous activity in a few hours.

I think the key may well be "not exposed to the (Houston) atmosphere".

<snip>

> >The picture is somewhat less clear with regards to the lactobacillus
> >bacteria. It isn't usually found on grain or in the air. It isn't
> >found in water. It is found on human skin. And in human dental
> >plaque. Some people have started sourdough starters by spitting into
> >the flour and water mixture. (Look at google groups and search the
> >rec.food.sourdough archives. It's there.)

> <BARF>

I suspect most real olde time bakeries were far less sanitary than that.
But that was then and this is now.

> Remind me to avoid that baker's sourdough.

I agree.
> Why not lace the starter with some buttermilk or yogurt?

There are recipes that use yogurt as part of the process, but it's similar
to the situation with regards to using bakers yeast or grapes to start a
starter. You get organisms, but not the right ones. After a while they
die off, and the right ones take over.

Dr. Gaentzle, another German sourdough researcher, says that all the
sourdough cultures he's tested, worldwide, wind up having a strain of
Lactobacillus Sanfranciscus in them. He has *NO* idea where they
come from. This has some impact on the "you can't make San
Francisco sourdough anywhere but San Francisco" theory.

> I bought some SF SD starter from King Arthur Flour that is made in
> France and asked them what the ingredients are. They said yeast,
> bacteria and lactose. So why not put lactose in the new culture to
> promote lactobacillus formation?

A good question. My usual feeling is that if it's not necessary, you
shouldn't do it. Since you wind up with lactobacillus without adding
lactose, you shouldn't bother doing it. It isn't clear to me why KA's
vendor put the lactose in the product, so I feel no compulsion to
duplicate their efforts.

> >Sourdough, like aspirin, is an old technology, and as a result not
> >much is spent to investigate it in a scientific way. Frank Sugihara,
> >Dr. Brummer, and a few others do research... but since it works
> >without having to understand it, and since research is unlikely to
> >make much money, not as much research has been, or is being, done as
> >we might like.

> Pity.

The picture may be worse than I painted it. There are, of course,
people with vested interested in making sure that more is not
understood about sourdough. If anyone could demonstrably make SF
sourdough anywhere, that would really impact the revenue stream for
Boudin and the other SF bakeries. Of course, Boudin has bakeries in
New Orleans and Chicago, and they claim the results there are the
same as in SF. Perhaps it's because they ship cultures and flour to
the other bakeries.... in any case, not many existing sorudough
bakeries would be interested in funding research.

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
I think ... therefore I am overqualified.

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.0.1069622557.204.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> [ ... ]

> Since you wind up with lactobacillus without adding=20
> lactose, you shouldn't bother doing it. It isn't clear to me why KA's =

> vendor put the lactose in the product, so I feel no compulsion to=20
> duplicate their efforts.

Not clear to me, either. Sometimes lactose is added to preparations
of microorganisms to be lyophilized, as a preservative. Lactobacteria
are so named not because of requiring lactose as a nutrient, but because =

lactic acid is among their metabolic products.

---
DickA

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1069622557.204.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> Of course, Boudin has bakeries in
> New Orleans and Chicago, and they claim the results there are the
> same as in SF.

I think you may be mistaken about the New Orleans location. I live in New
Orleans and wasn't familiar with it. I double checked the Boudin bakery web
site and I only saw locations in California and Chicago. The best bakery
I've tried here is La Boulangerie. One of the two locations is about a block
away from me which is not a bad thing.

Now, there is boudin in southern Louisiana, but it's a pork and rice
sausage. Good boudin is great stuff, but not bread.

-Mike

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:22:19 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> wrote:

>It's been a while since I read Dr. Wood's book, but as I recall he
>sterilized his flour with intense radiation and then started many, many
>cultures in Egypt to try to re-create the bakeries and cultures used in
>the time of the pyramids. And most of the cultures failed. And he's an
>expert.

I believe he published 2 books. The one you refer to was the first and
the one I refer to was the second. In the latter book he ducks the
issue of flour-based organisms. But he does give a valuable clue that
I have never seen anywhere else, namely the requirement for
freshly-milled organic whole grain wheat flour.

I tried several packaged flours with no success, but got almost
instant activation from bulk flour I bought at Whole Food Market. An
employ said they turn that particular flour every week so it is about
as freshly-milled as I could find.

>It's a question of probabilities. Darrell has the relative denisities of
>microorganisms in the air, on grain, and in a starter. The lowest
>density is in the air by many orders of magnitude.

That is very interesting.

>Grain has to be coddled along to start a starter.

Not that freshly-milled starter. It activated as though I had
innoculated it with commercial yeast. There was no hesitation or
ambiguity that that starter was a powerhouse as soon as water hit the
flour.

>And then, of course, you're also in
>Houston, a petro-chemical hell.

Somebody has to make the gasoline for your SUV. We make like about 80%
of the nation's unleaded fuel and the additives that go into it.

I, fortunately, live on the diagonal opposite corner of the City, well
away from the refineries and chemical plants. However, I have always
imagined that if an airborne starter was activated, I would end up
with some kind of petroleum derivative.

>There's no telling what you have in the
>air there. But most of it probably isn't alive.

You don't know our air. There is a poem about one of the cities near
the refinery complex named Pasadena, Texas:

"Beautiful downtown Pasadena, where the air is greener."

>I think the key may well be "not exposed to the (Houston) atmosphere".

I am a good 50 miles from the chemical complex and my backyard faces
an expanse of woods (I live on the county line in the NW sector of
Metropolitan Houston. You would think those woods would produce all
the yeasts I could ever want.

>> Why not lace the starter with some buttermilk or yogurt?

>There are recipes that use yogurt as part of the process, but it's similar
>to the situation with regards to using bakers yeast or grapes to start a
>starter. You get organisms, but not the right ones. After a while they
>die off, and the right ones take over.

>Dr. Gaentzle, another German sourdough researcher, says that all the
>sourdough cultures he's tested, worldwide, wind up having a strain of
>Lactobacillus Sanfranciscus in them. He has *NO* idea where they
>come from. This has some impact on the "you can't make San
>Francisco sourdough anywhere but San Francisco" theory.

If the wheat itself is the major source of organisms, by orders of
magnitude, then SF starter is not indigenous to SF. It is the product
of the kind of wheat that people use in SF.

>> Pity.

>The picture may be worse than I painted it. There are, of course,
>people with vested interested in making sure that more is not
>understood about sourdough. If anyone could demonstrably make SF
>sourdough anywhere, that would really impact the revenue stream for
>Boudin and the other SF bakeries.

I wish I knew a microbiologist so I could send him a sample of my
"natural" starter - the one I got going with that freshly-milled
flour. If he discovered that the LB is SF, then that would prove the
point you raised.

Of course, Boudin has bakeries in
>New Orleans and Chicago, and they claim the results there are the
>same as in SF. Perhaps it's because they ship cultures and flour to
>the other bakeries.... in any case, not many existing sorudough
>bakeries would be interested in funding research.

Even more carefully guarded are the yeasts used in brewing. Wouldn't
it be ironical if all these organism were essentially the same.

If the truth be known, I get all the sour taste I want from a
poolish-based bread made using commercial yeast. But I want to be a
member of the sourdough cult so I can brag about running the gauntlet,
and therefore I labor over jars of starter, feeding the damn things
like they were my last meal.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:19:13 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
> wrote:

>I think you may be mistaken about the New Orleans location. I live in New
>Orleans

I lived there in the mid 1970s, when Reising was the only bread worth
eating. I have tried to get copycat recipes but I have never found one
that mimics that great flakey pastry-like crust and delicate crumb.

On 23 Nov 2003 at 17:19, Mike Pearce wrote:

> "Mike Avery" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.0.1069622557.204.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> > Of course, Boudin has bakeries in
> > New Orleans and Chicago, and they claim the results there are the
> > same as in SF.

> I think you may be mistaken about the New Orleans location. I live in
> New Orleans and wasn't familiar with it. I double checked the Boudin
> bakery web site and I only saw locations in California and Chicago.

Oops... sorry. Brain fart....

> Now, there is boudin in southern Louisiana, but it's a pork and rice
> sausage. Good boudin is great stuff, but not bread.

*wistful sigh* there ARE times I miss living in Beaumont... lots of Cajun
influences there...

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
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