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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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The Biology of . . . Sourdough -- San Fran's Mighty Microbes
"Sourdough is teeming with bugs‹some 50 million yeasts and 5 billion lactobacilli bacteria in every teaspoon of starter dough. About 34 years ago, Frank Sugihara recalls, he and Leo Kline, a fellow microbiologist, set out to "solve the mystery of San Francisco sourdough." The two scientists were working with baker's yeast in a Bay Area lab run by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, so perhaps it was inevitable they'd wind up studying San Francisco's signature bread. This crusty loaf, with its chewy bite and sharp acidulated tang, was a long way from Wonder Bread, and few tourists left the airport without a loaf. Local lore attributed the bread to Basque migrants from the Pyrenees who arrived in San Francisco during the gold rush. Local bakers swore that no one could reproduce it outside a 50-mile radius of the city. When they gave dough to bakeries elsewhere, it inexplicably lost its "sour." But was it‹is it‹truly unique? Sugihara laughs. "It's hard to say."... http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-0...featscienceof/ Cheers, Darrell -- To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet2 (at) telus.net |
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The Biology of . . . Sourdough -- San Fran's Mighty Microbes
"Darrell Greenwood" > wrote in message lid... > > "Sourdough is teeming with bugs > lactobacilli bacteria in every teaspoon of starter dough. snip > http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-0...featscienceof/ > > Cheers, > > Darrell Excellent article. Thanks for sharing. Janet |
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The Biology of . . . Sourdough -- San Fran's Mighty Microbes
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 22:17:54 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote: >> http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-0...featscienceof/ >Excellent article. Thanks for sharing. But does it resolve the issue of how "natural" starters become activated initially? There appears to be some contorversy over whether the initial organisms are found solely in the flour, solely in the atmosphere, or both. I can attest to the fact that I was unable to activate several attempts with atmospheric organisms. My kitchen must be free of them - or at least it was before I began using active starters. I was, however, able to activate two starters with only flour. I tried to maintain strict sanitation protocols, like chemists use in the lab, so I believe the activation had to be the result of organisms in the flour, especially since it appeared that there were none in the atmosphere back then. Does that mean when people expose a flour-water mixture to the atmosphere, they are being deceived as to the source of activation? |
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The Biology of . . . Sourdough -- San Fran's Mighty Microbes
Thanks for the link. Very good article.
Tamar |
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The Biology of . . . Sourdough -- San Fran's Mighty Microbes
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The Biology of . . . Sourdough -- San Fran's Mighty Microbes
On 23 Nov 2003 at 15:25, Bob wrote:
> On 23 Nov 2003 15:00:30 GMT, ospam (MarDarTK) wrote: > >Thanks for the link. Very good article. > Except the part about starter organisms originating solely from > baker's hands. The origons of yeast are pretty well understood. They are everywhere. In the air. On the grain. On the baker's skin. The concentration is highest in the grain, so the chances or probabilities favor the grain being the source of the yeast. The picture is somewhat less clear with regards to the lactobacillus bacteria. It isn't usually found on grain or in the air. It isn't found in water. It is found on human skin. And in human dental plaque. Some people have started sourdough starters by spitting into the flour and water mixture. (Look at google groups and search the rec.food.sourdough archives. It's there.) Sourdough, like aspirin, is an old technology, and as a result not much is spent to investigate it in a scientific way. Frank Sugihara, Dr. Brummer, and a few others do research... but since it works without having to understand it, and since research is unlikely to make much money, not as much research has been, or is being, done as we might like. Mike -- Mike Avery ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230 Phone: 970-642-0280 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * Once seen on road signs all over the United States: Give hand signals To those behind They don't know What's in Your mind Burma-Shave |
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The Biology of . . . Sourdough -- San Fran's Mighty Microbes
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:49:22 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> wrote: >> Except the part about starter organisms originating solely from >> baker's hands. >The origons of yeast are pretty well understood. They are everywhere. >In the air. On the grain. On the baker's skin. The concentration is >highest in the grain, so the chances or probabilities favor the grain >being the source of the yeast. Then how come I could not get atmosphere-based starters to activate. I tried 4 different flours and not one of them got past the stage of outgassing a little. But when I used the only thing that worked, namely, a freshly-milled, organic whole wheat flour that was not exposed to the atmosphere, I had vigorous activity in a few hours. I made sourdough bread from that particular starter and it is pretty good considering that I am an amateur at this business of sourdough baking. The final rise was substantial and it made nice holes in the crumb, plus it had a chewy texture and a moderately strong sour taste. I am letting it do whatever it does when it rests under refrigeration. I am feeding it once a week by retaining 1/2 cup and adding 1/2 cup flour and 1/2 cup distilled water, like people advise to do. >The picture is somewhat less clear with regards to the lactobacillus >bacteria. It isn't usually found on grain or in the air. It isn't found in >water. It is found on human skin. And in human dental plaque. Some >people have started sourdough starters by spitting into the flour and >water mixture. (Look at google groups and search the >rec.food.sourdough archives. It's there.) <BARF> Remind me to avoid that baker's sourdough. Why not lace the starter with some buttermilk or yogurt? I bought some SF SD starter from King Arthur Flour that is made in France and asked them what the ingredients are. They said yeast, bacteria and lactose. So why not put lactose in the new culture to promote lactobacillus formation? >Sourdough, like aspirin, is an old technology, and as a result not much >is spent to investigate it in a scientific way. Frank Sugihara, Dr. >Brummer, and a few others do research... but since it works without >having to understand it, and since research is unlikely to make much >money, not as much research has been, or is being, done as we might >like. Pity. |
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The Biology of . . . Sourdough -- San Fran's Mighty Microbes
On 23 Nov 2003 at 19:35, Bob wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:49:22 -0700, "Mike Avery" > > wrote: > >> Except the part about starter organisms originating solely from > >> baker's hands. > >The origons of yeast are pretty well understood. They are > >everywhere. In the air. On the grain. On the baker's skin. The > >concentration is highest in the grain, so the chances or > >probabilities favor the grain being the source of the yeast. > Then how come I could not get atmosphere-based starters to activate. I > tried 4 different flours and not one of them got past the stage of > outgassing a little. It's been a while since I read Dr. Wood's book, but as I recall he sterilized his flour with intense radiation and then started many, many cultures in Egypt to try to re-create the bakeries and cultures used in the time of the pyramids. And most of the cultures failed. And he's an expert. It's a question of probabilities. Darrell has the relative denisities of microorganisms in the air, on grain, and in a starter. They lowest density is in the air by many orders of magnitude. Grain has to be coddled along to start a starter. And then, of course, you're also in Houston, a petro-chemical hell. There's no telling what you have in the air there. But most of it probably isn't alive. > But when I used the only thing that worked, namely, a freshly-milled, > organic whole wheat flour that was not exposed to the atmosphere, I > had vigorous activity in a few hours. I think the key may well be "not exposed to the (Houston) atmosphere". <snip> > >The picture is somewhat less clear with regards to the lactobacillus > >bacteria. It isn't usually found on grain or in the air. It isn't > >found in water. It is found on human skin. And in human dental > >plaque. Some people have started sourdough starters by spitting into > >the flour and water mixture. (Look at google groups and search the > >rec.food.sourdough archives. It's there.) > <BARF> I suspect most real olde time bakeries were far less sanitary than that. But that was then and this is now. > Remind me to avoid that baker's sourdough. I agree. > Why not lace the starter with some buttermilk or yogurt? There are recipes that use yogurt as part of the process, but it's similar to the situation with regards to using bakers yeast or grapes to start a starter. You get organisms, but not the right ones. After a while they die off, and the right ones take over. Dr. Gaentzle, another German sourdough researcher, says that all the sourdough cultures he's tested, worldwide, wind up having a strain of Lactobacillus Sanfranciscus in them. He has *NO* idea where they come from. This has some impact on the "you can't make San Francisco sourdough anywhere but San Francisco" theory. > I bought some SF SD starter from King Arthur Flour that is made in > France and asked them what the ingredients are. They said yeast, > bacteria and lactose. So why not put lactose in the new culture to > promote lactobacillus formation? A good question. My usual feeling is that if it's not necessary, you shouldn't do it. Since you wind up with lactobacillus without adding lactose, you shouldn't bother doing it. It isn't clear to me why KA's vendor put the lactose in the product, so I feel no compulsion to duplicate their efforts. > >Sourdough, like aspirin, is an old technology, and as a result not > >much is spent to investigate it in a scientific way. Frank Sugihara, > >Dr. Brummer, and a few others do research... but since it works > >without having to understand it, and since research is unlikely to > >make much money, not as much research has been, or is being, done as > >we might like. > Pity. The picture may be worse than I painted it. There are, of course, people with vested interested in making sure that more is not understood about sourdough. If anyone could demonstrably make SF sourdough anywhere, that would really impact the revenue stream for Boudin and the other SF bakeries. Of course, Boudin has bakeries in New Orleans and Chicago, and they claim the results there are the same as in SF. Perhaps it's because they ship cultures and flour to the other bakeries.... in any case, not many existing sorudough bakeries would be interested in funding research. Mike -- Mike Avery ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230 Phone: 970-642-0280 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: I think ... therefore I am overqualified. |
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