On 23 Nov 2003 at 19:35, Bob wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:49:22 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> > wrote:

> >> Except the part about starter organisms originating solely from
> >> baker's hands.

> >The origons of yeast are pretty well understood. They are
> >everywhere. In the air. On the grain. On the baker's skin. The
> >concentration is highest in the grain, so the chances or
> >probabilities favor the grain being the source of the yeast.

> Then how come I could not get atmosphere-based starters to activate. I
> tried 4 different flours and not one of them got past the stage of
> outgassing a little.

It's been a while since I read Dr. Wood's book, but as I recall he
sterilized his flour with intense radiation and then started many, many
cultures in Egypt to try to re-create the bakeries and cultures used in
the time of the pyramids. And most of the cultures failed. And he's an
expert.

It's a question of probabilities. Darrell has the relative denisities of
microorganisms in the air, on grain, and in a starter. They lowest
density is in the air by many orders of magnitude. Grain has to be
coddled along to start a starter. And then, of course, you're also in
Houston, a petro-chemical hell. There's no telling what you have in the
air there. But most of it probably isn't alive.

> But when I used the only thing that worked, namely, a freshly-milled,
> organic whole wheat flour that was not exposed to the atmosphere, I
> had vigorous activity in a few hours.

I think the key may well be "not exposed to the (Houston) atmosphere".

<snip>

> >The picture is somewhat less clear with regards to the lactobacillus
> >bacteria. It isn't usually found on grain or in the air. It isn't
> >found in water. It is found on human skin. And in human dental
> >plaque. Some people have started sourdough starters by spitting into
> >the flour and water mixture. (Look at google groups and search the
> >rec.food.sourdough archives. It's there.)

> <BARF>

I suspect most real olde time bakeries were far less sanitary than that.
But that was then and this is now.

> Remind me to avoid that baker's sourdough.

I agree.
> Why not lace the starter with some buttermilk or yogurt?

There are recipes that use yogurt as part of the process, but it's similar
to the situation with regards to using bakers yeast or grapes to start a
starter. You get organisms, but not the right ones. After a while they
die off, and the right ones take over.

Dr. Gaentzle, another German sourdough researcher, says that all the
sourdough cultures he's tested, worldwide, wind up having a strain of
Lactobacillus Sanfranciscus in them. He has *NO* idea where they
come from. This has some impact on the "you can't make San
Francisco sourdough anywhere but San Francisco" theory.

> I bought some SF SD starter from King Arthur Flour that is made in
> France and asked them what the ingredients are. They said yeast,
> bacteria and lactose. So why not put lactose in the new culture to
> promote lactobacillus formation?

A good question. My usual feeling is that if it's not necessary, you
shouldn't do it. Since you wind up with lactobacillus without adding
lactose, you shouldn't bother doing it. It isn't clear to me why KA's
vendor put the lactose in the product, so I feel no compulsion to
duplicate their efforts.

> >Sourdough, like aspirin, is an old technology, and as a result not
> >much is spent to investigate it in a scientific way. Frank Sugihara,
> >Dr. Brummer, and a few others do research... but since it works
> >without having to understand it, and since research is unlikely to
> >make much money, not as much research has been, or is being, done as
> >we might like.

> Pity.

The picture may be worse than I painted it. There are, of course,
people with vested interested in making sure that more is not
understood about sourdough. If anyone could demonstrably make SF
sourdough anywhere, that would really impact the revenue stream for
Boudin and the other SF bakeries. Of course, Boudin has bakeries in
New Orleans and Chicago, and they claim the results there are the
same as in SF. Perhaps it's because they ship cultures and flour to
the other bakeries.... in any case, not many existing sorudough
bakeries would be interested in funding research.

Mike
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