Really interesting article in the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/he...me&ref=general

".....the industry is working overtly and behind the scenes to fend
off these attacks, using a shifting set of tactics that have defeated
similar efforts for 30 years, records and interviews show. Industry
insiders call the strategy “delay and divert” and say companies have a
powerful incentive to fight back: they crave salt as a low-cost way to
create tastes and textures. Doing without it risks losing customers,
and replacing it with more expensive ingredients risks losing profits.
"


and that's the bottom line isn't it?.......to heck with public health
and welfare, profits uber alles!!

ImStillMags wrote:
>
> Really interesting article in the NY Times
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/he...me&ref=general
>
> ".....the industry is working overtly and behind the scenes to fend
> off these attacks, using a shifting set of tactics that have defeated
> similar efforts for 30 years, records and interviews show. Industry

Which has been spectacularly unsuccessful.
"low sodium" is about as common a mantra
as "all natural" or "no trans fats".
It's gotten to the point where many frozen
and canned prepared foods are distinctly
undersalted.

> insiders call the strategy “delay and divert” and say companies have a
> powerful incentive to fight back: they crave salt as a low-cost way to
> create tastes and textures. Doing without it risks losing customers,
> and replacing it with more expensive ingredients risks losing profits.
> "
>
> and that's the bottom line isn't it?.......to heck with public health
> and welfare, profits uber alles!!

The New York Times sure brainwashed you,
didn't they?

Mark Thorson > wrote:

>Which has been spectacularly unsuccessful.
>"low sodium" is about as common a mantra
>as "all natural" or "no trans fats".
>It's gotten to the point where many frozen
>and canned prepared foods are distinctly
>undersalted.

How do you define undersalted?

If you're eating lots of salt, all sorts of food tastes
undersalted. It depends entirely on the eater's habits
and recent sodium intake.

If you eat low salt, low salt food tastes fine and highly
salted food tastes repugnant and also makes you retain
water and swell up.

My dining partner and I ate a few months ago at a recently opened
restaurant that was good except for massive amounts of salt.
The following morning, she had gained 3.5 lbs since the previous
day. Nearly all of that is water swelling due to salt.

The problem is people who eat too much salt deciding how
much salt should go in food. This is why it should be regulated
to an exact numerical value, rather than leaving it up
to someone's taste.

Have these chefs ever thought about measuring their ingredients?

Steve

On May 30, 1:09*pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> ImStillMags wrote:
>

>
> The New York Times sure brainwashed you,
> didn't they?


Um, no. The amount of salt in processed foods is deadly. You are
completely free to use all the salt you want in your foods that you
cook yourself, but the food processing industry should be more
conscientious, IMHO

Mark Thorson wrote:

> ImStillMags wrote:
> >
> > Really interesting article in the NY Times
> >
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/he...rc=me&ref=gene
> > ral
> >
> > ".....the industry is working overtly and behind the scenes to fend
> > off these attacks, using a shifting set of tactics that have
> > defeated similar efforts for 30 years, records and interviews show.
> > Industry
>
> Which has been spectacularly unsuccessful.
> "low sodium" is about as common a mantra
> as "all natural" or "no trans fats".
> It's gotten to the point where many frozen
> and canned prepared foods are distinctly
> undersalted.

Low sodium canned foods are still much less common than high sodium
ones.

--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com)

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Mark Thorson > wrote:
>
> >Which has been spectacularly unsuccessful.
> >"low sodium" is about as common a mantra
> >as "all natural" or "no trans fats".
> >It's gotten to the point where many frozen
> >and canned prepared foods are distinctly
> >undersalted.
>
> How do you define undersalted?
>
> If you're eating lots of salt, all sorts of food tastes
> undersalted. It depends entirely on the eater's habits
> and recent sodium intake.
>
> If you eat low salt, low salt food tastes fine and highly
> salted food tastes repugnant and also makes you retain
> water and swell up.

I do eat a low salt diet, and yet there are
products (mostly at Trader Joe's) that are distinctly
undersalted. Their chicken broth concentrate and
the recently introduced Puff Pastry Margherita Pizza,
to name two. I am adapted to a low salt diet, and
yet I can tell these products cry out for more salt.

On May 30, 1:36*pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> Steve Pope wrote:
>
> > Mark Thorson > wrote:
>
> > >Which has been spectacularly unsuccessful.
> > >"low sodium" is about as common a mantra
> > >as "all natural" or "no trans fats".
> > >It's gotten to the point where many frozen
> > >and canned prepared foods are distinctly
> > >undersalted.
>
> > How do you define undersalted?
>
> > If you're eating lots of salt, all sorts of food tastes
> > undersalted. *It depends entirely on the eater's habits
> > and recent sodium intake.
>
> > If you eat low salt, low salt food tastes fine and highly
> > salted food tastes repugnant and also makes you retain
> > water and swell up.
>
> I do eat a low salt diet, and yet there are
> products (mostly at Trader Joe's) that are distinctly
> undersalted. *Their chicken broth concentrate and
> the recently introduced Puff Pastry Margherita Pizza,
> to name two. *I am adapted to a low salt diet, and
> yet I can tell these products cry out for more salt


Personally, I would prefer products that ARE undersalted. That way
you can add to your own taste. You can always add, you cannot take
away.

ImStillMags wrote:
>
> On May 30, 1:09 pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> > ImStillMags wrote:
> >
> > The New York Times sure brainwashed you,
> > didn't they?
>
> Um, no. The amount of salt in processed foods is deadly. You are
> completely free to use all the salt you want in your foods that you
> cook yourself, but the food processing industry should be more
> conscientious, IMHO

You could choose not to buy their products,
but that wouldn't work for you, right?
You just can't resist them because they're
soooo good! The only way to keep you from
eating them is to make them illegal.

ImStillMags wrote:
>
> On May 30, 1:36 pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> >
> > I do eat a low salt diet, and yet there are
> > products (mostly at Trader Joe's) that are distinctly
> > undersalted. Their chicken broth concentrate and
> > the recently introduced Puff Pastry Margherita Pizza,
> > to name two. I am adapted to a low salt diet, and
> > yet I can tell these products cry out for more salt
>
> Personally, I would prefer products that ARE undersalted. That way
> you can add to your own taste. You can always add, you cannot take
> away.

You cannot always add. I did try sprinkling a little
salt on the pizza, but there was no way the salt
was going to permeate the topping and crust.
It didn't help. The pizza was hopelessly undersalted.

On May 30, 1:40*pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> ImStillMags wrote:
>
> > On May 30, 1:09 pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> > > ImStillMags wrote:
>
> > > The New York Times sure brainwashed you,
> > > didn't they?
>
> > Um, no. *The amount of salt in processed foods is deadly. *You are
> > completely free to use all the salt you want in your foods that you
> > cook yourself, but the food processing industry should be more
> > conscientious, IMHO
>
> You could choose not to buy their products,
> but that wouldn't work for you, right?
> You just can't resist them because they're
> soooo good! *The only way to keep you from
> eating them is to make them illegal.

Why are you being snarky? I'm talking about health. Not everyone
understands or even pays attention to
their salt intake and don't make decisions based on anything but
whether or not something tastes good. Take a look
at the general population. The majority are overweight and unhealthy
and the processed food industry has a big role
in it. I know personal responsibility and accountability is up to
the individual, but I also think that these companies should be better
stewards.

Mark Thorson > wrote:

>I do eat a low salt diet, and yet there are
>products (mostly at Trader Joe's) that are distinctly
>undersalted. Their chicken broth concentrate and
>the recently introduced Puff Pastry Margherita Pizza,
>to name two. I am adapted to a low salt diet, and
>yet I can tell these products cry out for more salt.

I'll have to look at the labeling for these next time
I'm at a TJ's.

How salty a broth should be depends on usage, but
for the pizza pastry it's pretty objective... if it's
not under a milligram of sodium per calorie, it
isn't undersalted. If it is, it might be undersalted.

The TJ's Italian pizzas are about 2 mg / calorie.
Definitely not undersalted.

Steve

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> How salty a broth should be depends on usage, but
> for the pizza pastry it's pretty objective... if it's
> not under a milligram of sodium per calorie, it
> isn't undersalted. If it is, it might be undersalted.
>
> The TJ's Italian pizzas are about 2 mg / calorie.
> Definitely not undersalted.

210 milligrams sodium for 190 calories per serving,
the box containing two servings (hah!). This serving
also contains a whopping 7 grams of saturated fat.
I noticed it was too rich on the butter when I ate it.

Definitely undersalted.

Mark Thorson > wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

[ TJ pizza pastry ]

>210 milligrams sodium for 190 calories per serving,
>the box containing two servings (hah!). This serving
>also contains a whopping 7 grams of saturated fat.
>I noticed it was too rich on the butter when I ate it.

>Definitely undersalted.

Well, possibly. If one wishes to consume 2 grams of
sodium and 2000 calories per day, then on average that
is not undersalted. OTOH, if one can make some of one's
daily calories (fruit, yogurt, breakfast cereal) completely
unsalted, then one can make the savory dinner items
a little more salty and not exceed the target.

You say this is a new item... possibly they are thinking
ahead to when there is more regulation, and pro-actively
putting in less sodium.

Steve

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> You say this is a new item... possibly they are thinking
> ahead to when there is more regulation, and pro-actively
> putting in less sodium.

That being my point. There is no conspiracy
to promote salt, or if there is, it has been
spectacularly unsuccessful. They've been losing
ground every year for the last 30 years.

Now, just the fear of the anti-sodium crowd
is enough to get manufacturers to mutilate
their products.

On 5/30/2010 5:37 PM, Stu wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 2010 12:52:26 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
> > wrote:
>
>> Really interesting article in the NY Times
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/he...me&ref=general
>>
>> ".....the industry is working overtly and behind the scenes to fend
>> off these attacks, using a shifting set of tactics that have defeated
>> similar efforts for 30 years, records and interviews show. Industry
>> insiders call the strategy “delay and divert” and say companies have a
>> powerful incentive to fight back: they crave salt as a low-cost way to
>> create tastes and textures. Doing without it risks losing customers,
>> and replacing it with more expensive ingredients risks losing profits.
>> "
>>
>>
>> and that's the bottom line isn't it?.......to heck with public health
>> and welfare, profits uber alles!!
>
> "Cargill and its star chef, Mr. Brown, said they recognized the health
> concerns and recommended “smarter salting.”
>
> As we all know, it's about profits for both Cargill and Mr. Brown.
>
>
> “Salt is a pretty amazing compound,” Alton Brown, a Food Network star,
> gushes in a Cargill video called Salt 101. “So make sure you have
> plenty of salt in your kitchen at all times."
>
> Alton Brown should be ashamed about flogging salt, and the Food
> Network should look into his association with Cargill.
> How can you seem to cook healthy, and shill for the salt manufacturer
> in the same breath?

Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
_tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
to tell others how to live their lives.

ImStillMags wrote:
> Really interesting article in the NY Times
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/he...me&ref=general
>
> ".....the industry is working overtly and behind the scenes to fend
> off these attacks, using a shifting set of tactics that have defeated
> similar efforts for 30 years, records and interviews show. Industry
> insiders call the strategy “delay and divert” and say companies have a
> powerful incentive to fight back: they crave salt as a low-cost way to
> create tastes and textures. Doing without it risks losing customers,
> and replacing it with more expensive ingredients risks losing profits.
> "
>
>
> and that's the bottom line isn't it?.......to heck with public health
> and welfare, profits uber alles!!

It's far too easy to make simplistic arguments when, in fact, it's a
fairly complex issue. IMHO, it comes down to what packaged food is -
poor quality ingredients that are consumed a long time after they're
prepared. We all know, from cooking at home, that both the quality of
the ingredients we use and their freshness matter, so it only follows
that if one uses ingredients with little flavor and then lets them sit
around , we end up with very bland food, which no one wants to eat.
Salt is a way to turn poor quality ingredients, poorly handled in terms
of time between preparation and consumption, into something that tastes
at least tolerable.

The alternative is stop buying prepared food and cook from fresh
ingredients. Fresh food needs far less in terms of salt - that's
perhaps the simplest way to look at it, and fresh food is expensive
compared to the alternatives.

We do not shy away from salt in our cooking, but I'm sure the food we
prepare has _far_ less salt than prepared foods.

In the end, it's our fault for buying so much prepared food in the first
place.

-S-

On 5/30/2010 10:59 PM, Stu wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 2010 20:25:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> > wrote:
>
>> On 5/30/2010 5:37 PM, Stu wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 May 2010 12:52:26 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Really interesting article in the NY Times
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/he...me&ref=general
>>>>
>>>> ".....the industry is working overtly and behind the scenes to fend
>>>> off these attacks, using a shifting set of tactics that have defeated
>>>> similar efforts for 30 years, records and interviews show. Industry
>>>> insiders call the strategy “delay and divert” and say companies have a
>>>> powerful incentive to fight back: they crave salt as a low-cost way to
>>>> create tastes and textures. Doing without it risks losing customers,
>>>> and replacing it with more expensive ingredients risks losing profits.
>>>> "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and that's the bottom line isn't it?.......to heck with public health
>>>> and welfare, profits uber alles!!
>>>
>>> "Cargill and its star chef, Mr. Brown, said they recognized the health
>>> concerns and recommended “smarter salting.”
>>>
>>> As we all know, it's about profits for both Cargill and Mr. Brown.
>>>
>>>
>>> “Salt is a pretty amazing compound,” Alton Brown, a Food Network star,
>>> gushes in a Cargill video called Salt 101. “So make sure you have
>>> plenty of salt in your kitchen at all times."
>>>
>>> Alton Brown should be ashamed about flogging salt, and the Food
>>> Network should look into his association with Cargill.
>>> How can you seem to cook healthy, and shill for the salt manufacturer
>>> in the same breath?
>>
>> Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
>> _tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
>> to tell others how to live their lives.
>
> Perhaps you need to heed your own advice

I haven't told you how to live your life, only to leave the rest of us
the Hell alone.

J. Clarke > wrote:

>Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
>_tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
>to tell others how to live their lives.

This would be valid if Americans were more careful with their
health, got their blood pressure checked regularly and any
hypertension treated. In Europe everybody does that but not
here. A fraction of the untreated hypertensives in the U.S.
are sodium-sensitive. Therefore, it will save taxpayer money to
have an industry-wide salt reduction.

So while I generally believe in peace, love, freedom and
libertarianism, since it will save me money to regulate salt,
I'm for it.

Steve

On Sun, 30 May 2010 23:50:14 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> wrote:

>On 5/30/2010 10:59 PM, Stu wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 May 2010 20:25:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/30/2010 5:37 PM, Stu wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 30 May 2010 12:52:26 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Really interesting article in the NY Times
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/he...me&ref=general
>>>>>
>>>>> ".....the industry is working overtly and behind the scenes to fend
>>>>> off these attacks, using a shifting set of tactics that have defeated
>>>>> similar efforts for 30 years, records and interviews show. Industry
>>>>> insiders call the strategy “delay and divert” and say companies have a
>>>>> powerful incentive to fight back: they crave salt as a low-cost way to
>>>>> create tastes and textures. Doing without it risks losing customers,
>>>>> and replacing it with more expensive ingredients risks losing profits.
>>>>> "
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and that's the bottom line isn't it?.......to heck with public health
>>>>> and welfare, profits uber alles!!
>>>>
>>>> "Cargill and its star chef, Mr. Brown, said they recognized the health
>>>> concerns and recommended “smarter salting.”
>>>>
>>>> As we all know, it's about profits for both Cargill and Mr. Brown.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> “Salt is a pretty amazing compound,” Alton Brown, a Food Network star,
>>>> gushes in a Cargill video called Salt 101. “So make sure you have
>>>> plenty of salt in your kitchen at all times."
>>>>
>>>> Alton Brown should be ashamed about flogging salt, and the Food
>>>> Network should look into his association with Cargill.
>>>> How can you seem to cook healthy, and shill for the salt manufacturer
>>>> in the same breath?
>>>
>>> Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
>>> _tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
>>> to tell others how to live their lives.
>>
>> Perhaps you need to heed your own advice
>
>I haven't told you how to live your life, only to leave the rest of us
>the Hell alone.

There you go doing it again. Most don't give a shit what you like, get
over yourself.

On 5/31/2010 12:39 AM, WTF wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 2010 23:50:14 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> > wrote:
>
>> On 5/30/2010 10:59 PM, Stu wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 May 2010 20:25:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/30/2010 5:37 PM, Stu wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 30 May 2010 12:52:26 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Really interesting article in the NY Times
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/he...me&ref=general
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ".....the industry is working overtly and behind the scenes to fend
>>>>>> off these attacks, using a shifting set of tactics that have defeated
>>>>>> similar efforts for 30 years, records and interviews show. Industry
>>>>>> insiders call the strategy “delay and divert” and say companies have a
>>>>>> powerful incentive to fight back: they crave salt as a low-cost way to
>>>>>> create tastes and textures. Doing without it risks losing customers,
>>>>>> and replacing it with more expensive ingredients risks losing profits.
>>>>>> "
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and that's the bottom line isn't it?.......to heck with public health
>>>>>> and welfare, profits uber alles!!
>>>>>
>>>>> "Cargill and its star chef, Mr. Brown, said they recognized the health
>>>>> concerns and recommended “smarter salting.”
>>>>>
>>>>> As we all know, it's about profits for both Cargill and Mr. Brown.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> “Salt is a pretty amazing compound,” Alton Brown, a Food Network star,
>>>>> gushes in a Cargill video called Salt 101. “So make sure you have
>>>>> plenty of salt in your kitchen at all times."
>>>>>
>>>>> Alton Brown should be ashamed about flogging salt, and the Food
>>>>> Network should look into his association with Cargill.
>>>>> How can you seem to cook healthy, and shill for the salt manufacturer
>>>>> in the same breath?
>>>>
>>>> Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
>>>> _tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
>>>> to tell others how to live their lives.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you need to heed your own advice
>>
>> I haven't told you how to live your life, only to leave the rest of us
>> the Hell alone.
>
> There you go doing it again. Most don't give a shit what you like, get
> over yourself.

I haven't stated that I like anything, so how is that relevant?

In article >,
"Steve Freides" > wrote:

> and fresh food is expensive
> compared to the alternatives.

Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true...
Pre-prepped food drives the grocery bill up considerably.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
(Steve Pope) wrote:

> J. Clarke > wrote:
>
> >Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
> >_tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
> >to tell others how to live their lives.
>
> This would be valid if Americans were more careful with their
> health, got their blood pressure checked regularly and any
> hypertension treated. In Europe everybody does that but not
> here. A fraction of the untreated hypertensives in the U.S.
> are sodium-sensitive. Therefore, it will save taxpayer money to
> have an industry-wide salt reduction.
>
> So while I generally believe in peace, love, freedom and
> libertarianism, since it will save me money to regulate salt,
> I'm for it.
>
> Steve

And sugar reduction (especially those who are addicted to soft drinks)
might reduce the national diabetes epidemic...
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

On Mon, 31 May 2010 07:40:18 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> "Steve Freides" > wrote:
>
>> and fresh food is expensive
>> compared to the alternatives.
>
>Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true...
>Pre-prepped food drives the grocery bill up considerably.

Yup, those Bacos are a budget buster! hehe

Preserved foods always cost more... cured ham can cost 3-4 times fresh
ham.

On Mon, 31 May 2010 07:41:52 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> (Steve Pope) wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke > wrote:
>>
>> >Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
>> >_tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
>> >to tell others how to live their lives.
>>
>> This would be valid if Americans were more careful with their
>> health, got their blood pressure checked regularly and any
>> hypertension treated. In Europe everybody does that but not
>> here. A fraction of the untreated hypertensives in the U.S.
>> are sodium-sensitive. Therefore, it will save taxpayer money to
>> have an industry-wide salt reduction.
>>
>> So while I generally believe in peace, love, freedom and
>> libertarianism, since it will save me money to regulate salt,
>> I'm for it.
>>
>> Steve
>
>And sugar reduction (especially those who are addicted to soft drinks)
>might reduce the national diabetes epidemic...

The biggest cost to society is over population... let's mandate
neutering at birth, everyone with the hypertension and obeastie
gene... 'specially uglis and dummies.

Omelet wrote:
> In article >,
> "Steve Freides" > wrote:
>
>> and fresh food is expensive
>> compared to the alternatives.
>
> Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true...
> Pre-prepped food drives the grocery bill up considerably.

I guess it depends on a lot of things, among them what sort of prepared
foods you're talking about. There are certainly some cheap things out
there. But in my part of the world, the difference between buying
frozen, breaded fish and going to the seafood store and/or Whole Foods
and buying fresh is considerable - just one example.

-S-

On 31/05/2010 10:40 PM, Omelet wrote:
> In >,
> "Steve > wrote:
>
>> and fresh food is expensive
>> compared to the alternatives.
>
> Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true...
> Pre-prepped food drives the grocery bill up considerably.

In reality, the greatest users of pre-prepped foods are the people who
are time poor rather than cash poor. These could be people from families
where both husband and wife work leaving little time to prepare meals
from fresh ingredients. These could also be DINKs, couples with "dual
income, no kids" who spend all their time either working or partying.
My wife and I, up until we began to wind our working careers back a
decade ago, were very much like that. Now we rarely used pre-prepped
food at all.

Krypsis

"Steve Freides" > wrote
>
> I guess it depends on a lot of things, among them what sort of prepared
> foods you're talking about. There are certainly some cheap things out
> there. But in my part of the world, the difference between buying frozen,
> breaded fish and going to the seafood store and/or Whole Foods and buying
> fresh is considerable - just one example.
>
> -S-

So you pay $5 a pound for breadcrumbs that you can make yourself for
pennies. Yes, some prepared stuff does sell cheap because of the economy of
mass production, but it is often lower quality. Reading the ingredient
list is often like reading the inventory of a chemical plant. Canned fruit
is OK when that is all that is available, but a fresh peach is far superior
in flavor.

Most people could cut their food bill by 25% or more if they took the time
to prepare fresh foods and do a little extra work. Like buying a whole pork
loin for $1.99 instead of thin sliced pork in the meat case for $4.99.
Grating their own cheese.

On 2010-05-30 17:25:53 -0700, J. Clarke said:

> Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
> _tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your
> place to tell others how to live their lives.

Platitudes are always easier, but the article is about *processed*
foods. Not about Brown, Food Network or even restaurant food all of
which may be higher-than-is-good-for-you in the long run, but not
equivalent to eating a day's worth of salt in a single bowl of cereal
or frozen mean.

Processed foods.
--
-- Beware the delicate, tiny, very talented celebrity starlets.

On 2010-05-30 20:42:44 -0700, Ranée at Arabian Knits said:

> Really? I think they are too salty, but I haven't heard of these
> mass deaths. Perhaps it is like those carcinogens that are only known
> in California.

Easy platitudes. The same logic the tobacco industry used in the 60's.
Well heck, my uncle smoked all his life and didn't get cancer. See?
Cigarettes don't cause cancer.

The nyt article said deep cuts in salt consumption could save 150,000
lives a year. Of course it didn't say that salt actually *killed*
150,000 lives a year. But it certainly helped.

I'm guessing your analysis would include global warming is actually a
hoax too, right? In fact everything that implies irresponsibility by
any corporation in the pursuit of cash is likely a liberal fantasy.
--
-- Beware the delicate, tiny, very talented celebrity starlets.

Omelet > wrote:

> (Steve Pope) wrote:

>> J. Clarke > wrote:

>> >Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
>> >_tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
>> >to tell others how to live their lives.

>> This would be valid if Americans were more careful with their
>> health, got their blood pressure checked regularly and any
>> hypertension treated. In Europe everybody does that but not
>> here. A fraction of the untreated hypertensives in the U.S.
>> are sodium-sensitive. Therefore, it will save taxpayer money to
>> have an industry-wide salt reduction.

>> So while I generally believe in peace, love, freedom and
>> libertarianism, since it will save me money to regulate salt,
>> I'm for it.

>And sugar reduction (especially those who are addicted to soft drinks)
>might reduce the national diabetes epidemic...

Yes, particularly HFCS.

Although we don't know the total causes of that epidemic, and
it may overtake us before we find out....


S.

On Sun, 30 May 2010 13:47:48 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags wrote:

> On May 30, 1:40*pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
>> ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>>> On May 30, 1:09 pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
>>> > ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>>> > The New York Times sure brainwashed you,
>>> > didn't they?
>>
>>> Um, no. *The amount of salt in processed foods is deadly. *You are
>>> completely free to use all the salt you want in your foods that you
>>> cook yourself, but the food processing industry should be more
>>> conscientious, IMHO
>>
>> You could choose not to buy their products,
>> but that wouldn't work for you, right?
>> You just can't resist them because they're
>> soooo good! *The only way to keep you from
>> eating them is to make them illegal.
>
> Why are you being snarky? I'm talking about health. Not everyone
> understands or even pays attention to
> their salt intake and don't make decisions based on anything but
> whether or not something tastes good. Take a look
> at the general population. The majority are overweight and unhealthy
> and the processed food industry has a big role
> in it. I know personal responsibility and accountability is up to
> the individual, but I also think that these companies should be better
> stewards.

i'm not sure how i feel about this. 150,000 excess deaths is nothing to
sneeze at, and it's hard to sympathize with a company saying 'if we can't
use all that salt, we'd have to spend some real money to make this crap
taste good.' on the other hand, if they did, prices would go up.

and there has been a lot of voluntary effort by food companies to reduce
salt.

it seems to me government efforts to ensure safe food could be better spent
elsewhere, but i guess it's easier to set limits on manufacturers of these
kinds of product than, say, to actually inspect more meat producers. but
on the other hand, bad meat probably doesn't result in 150,000 deaths a
year, either. (a quick google suggests less than a thousand.) so, i'm
torn.

your pal,
blake

On Mon, 31 May 2010 09:46:13 -0400, brooklyn1 wrote:

> On Mon, 31 May 2010 07:41:52 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> (Steve Pope) wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke > wrote:
>>>
>>> >Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
>>> >_tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
>>> >to tell others how to live their lives.
>>>
>>> This would be valid if Americans were more careful with their
>>> health, got their blood pressure checked regularly and any
>>> hypertension treated. In Europe everybody does that but not
>>> here. A fraction of the untreated hypertensives in the U.S.
>>> are sodium-sensitive. Therefore, it will save taxpayer money to
>>> have an industry-wide salt reduction.
>>>
>>> So while I generally believe in peace, love, freedom and
>>> libertarianism, since it will save me money to regulate salt,
>>> I'm for it.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>>And sugar reduction (especially those who are addicted to soft drinks)
>>might reduce the national diabetes epidemic...
>
> The biggest cost to society is over population... let's mandate
> neutering at birth, everyone with the hypertension and obeastie
> gene... 'specially uglis and dummies.

you're a good little nazi, sheldon. your parents would be so proud they'd
*plotz*.

blake

On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:08:17 -0400, Steve Freides wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
>> In article >,
>> "Steve Freides" > wrote:
>>
>>> and fresh food is expensive
>>> compared to the alternatives.
>>
>> Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true...
>> Pre-prepped food drives the grocery bill up considerably.
>
> I guess it depends on a lot of things, among them what sort of prepared
> foods you're talking about. There are certainly some cheap things out
> there. But in my part of the world, the difference between buying
> frozen, breaded fish and going to the seafood store and/or Whole Foods
> and buying fresh is considerable - just one example.
>
> -S-

right. boxed macaroni and cheese, ramen noodles, stuff like that is damned
cheap.

your pal,
blake

On Mon, 31 May 2010 11:28:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> "Steve Freides" > wrote
>>
>> I guess it depends on a lot of things, among them what sort of prepared
>> foods you're talking about. There are certainly some cheap things out
>> there. But in my part of the world, the difference between buying frozen,
>> breaded fish and going to the seafood store and/or Whole Foods and buying
>> fresh is considerable - just one example.
>>
>> -S-
>
> So you pay $5 a pound for breadcrumbs that you can make yourself for
> pennies. Yes, some prepared stuff does sell cheap because of the economy of
> mass production, but it is often lower quality. Reading the ingredient
> list is often like reading the inventory of a chemical plant. Canned fruit
> is OK when that is all that is available, but a fresh peach is far superior
> in flavor.
>
> Most people could cut their food bill by 25% or more if they took the time
> to prepare fresh foods and do a little extra work. Like buying a whole pork
> loin for $1.99 instead of thin sliced pork in the meat case for $4.99.
> Grating their own cheese.

but part of that is having food money to invest for the long term. i'm not
saying it can't be done even by poor people, but it's not always as easy as
you make it sound.

your pal,
blake

blake wrote on Mon, 31 May 2010 13:54:26 -0400:

>> Omelet wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> "Steve Freides" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> and fresh food is expensive
>>>> compared to the alternatives.
>>>
>>> Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true...
>>> Pre-prepped food drives the grocery bill up considerably.
>>
>> I guess it depends on a lot of things, among them what sort
>> of prepared foods you're talking about. There are certainly
>> some cheap things out there. But in my part of the world,
>> the difference between buying frozen, breaded fish and going
>> to the seafood store and/or Whole Foods and buying fresh is
>> considerable - just one example.
>>
>> -S-

> right. boxed macaroni and cheese, ramen noodles, stuff like
> that is damned cheap.

I can't really make Panko crumbs and a relatively cheap box lasts a long
time. I usually keep the crumbs in the freezer in an old coffee bean
container. They stay free flowing and don't need defrosting.
--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

In article >,
brooklyn1 > wrote:

> On Mon, 31 May 2010 07:40:18 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > "Steve Freides" > wrote:
> >
> >> and fresh food is expensive
> >> compared to the alternatives.
> >
> >Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true...
> >Pre-prepped food drives the grocery bill up considerably.
>
> Yup, those Bacos are a budget buster! hehe
>
> Preserved foods always cost more... cured ham can cost 3-4 times fresh
> ham.

My grocery bill goes down the more fresh produce I eat...
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
brooklyn1 > wrote:

> On Mon, 31 May 2010 07:41:52 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >
> >> J. Clarke > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Do Alton Brown and The Food Network claim to cook _healthy_ or cook
> >> >_tasty_? If you don't like salt don't use it. But it is not your place
> >> >to tell others how to live their lives.
> >>
> >> This would be valid if Americans were more careful with their
> >> health, got their blood pressure checked regularly and any
> >> hypertension treated. In Europe everybody does that but not
> >> here. A fraction of the untreated hypertensives in the U.S.
> >> are sodium-sensitive. Therefore, it will save taxpayer money to
> >> have an industry-wide salt reduction.
> >>
> >> So while I generally believe in peace, love, freedom and
> >> libertarianism, since it will save me money to regulate salt,
> >> I'm for it.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >
> >And sugar reduction (especially those who are addicted to soft drinks)
> >might reduce the national diabetes epidemic...
>
> The biggest cost to society is over population... let's mandate
> neutering at birth, everyone with the hypertension and obeastie
> gene... 'specially uglis and dummies.

Good luck with that one. <g>
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
"Steve Freides" > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> > In article >,
> > "Steve Freides" > wrote:
> >
> >> and fresh food is expensive
> >> compared to the alternatives.
> >
> > Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true...
> > Pre-prepped food drives the grocery bill up considerably.
>
> I guess it depends on a lot of things, among them what sort of prepared
> foods you're talking about. There are certainly some cheap things out
> there. But in my part of the world, the difference between buying
> frozen, breaded fish and going to the seafood store and/or Whole Foods
> and buying fresh is considerable - just one example.
>
> -S-

<laughs> Whole foods is not called "Whole Paycheck" for nothing!
Fresh produce and poultry always bring my grocery bills down. :-)
Rice and beans are even cheaper but that's harder for me as I eat low
carb.

What's wrong with frozen unbreaded fish?
I've been able to find it for as low as $1.99 per lb. Far cheaper than
breaded.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

In article > ,
Krypsis > wrote:

> On 31/05/2010 10:40 PM, Omelet wrote:
> > In >,
> > "Steve > wrote:
> >
> >> and fresh food is expensive
> >> compared to the alternatives.
> >
> > Actually, I've found just the opposite to be true...
> > Pre-prepped food drives the grocery bill up considerably.
>
> In reality, the greatest users of pre-prepped foods are the people who
> are time poor rather than cash poor. These could be people from families
> where both husband and wife work leaving little time to prepare meals
> from fresh ingredients. These could also be DINKs, couples with "dual
> income, no kids" who spend all their time either working or partying.
> My wife and I, up until we began to wind our working careers back a
> decade ago, were very much like that. Now we rarely used pre-prepped
> food at all.
>
> Krypsis

I tend to cook large amounts on weekends, then live on creative
leftovers during the week, but YMMV as always. :-)

Yesterdays BBQ will easily last me all week.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

In article >,
"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:

> "Steve Freides" > wrote
> >
> > I guess it depends on a lot of things, among them what sort of prepared
> > foods you're talking about. There are certainly some cheap things out
> > there. But in my part of the world, the difference between buying frozen,
> > breaded fish and going to the seafood store and/or Whole Foods and buying
> > fresh is considerable - just one example.
> >
> > -S-
>
> So you pay $5 a pound for breadcrumbs that you can make yourself for
> pennies. Yes, some prepared stuff does sell cheap because of the economy of
> mass production, but it is often lower quality. Reading the ingredient
> list is often like reading the inventory of a chemical plant. Canned fruit
> is OK when that is all that is available, but a fresh peach is far superior
> in flavor.
>
> Most people could cut their food bill by 25% or more if they took the time
> to prepare fresh foods and do a little extra work. Like buying a whole pork
> loin for $1.99 instead of thin sliced pork in the meat case for $4.99.
> Grating their own cheese.

Fortunately for me, 2 lb. bags of shredded cheese are the same price as
whole 2 lb. block cheese. But, I do buy the store brand... I freeze it.
If it was not, I'd shred my own with that rotary grater I have. It's
fast!
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine