I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but I don't
see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see advertised are chuck
eye roast and minute roast. I've never made either one, can anybody tell me
what these two cuts are like? Also, how would one prepare them?

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
> I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but I
> don't see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see advertised
> are chuck eye roast and minute roast. I've never made either one, can
> anybody tell me what these two cuts are like? Also, how would one
> prepare them?

With the chuck eye I'd be doing a slow cooker roast with some vegetables
of choice and little beef stock. The minute roast should be good in the
oven or the slow cooker.

"Ozgirl" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>> I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but I
>> don't see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see advertised are
>> chuck eye roast and minute roast. I've never made either one, can
>> anybody tell me what these two cuts are like? Also, how would one
>> prepare them?
>
> With the chuck eye I'd be doing a slow cooker roast with some vegetables
> of choice and little beef stock. The minute roast should be good in the
> oven or the slow cooker.

Hmmm. Based on that I think I might go for the minute roast. Thanks.

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
>I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but I don't
>see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see advertised are chuck
>eye roast and minute roast. I've never made either one, can anybody tell
>me what these two cuts are like? Also, how would one prepare them?

I've never even heard of a minute roast!

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>>I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but I
>>don't see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see advertised are
>>chuck eye roast and minute roast. I've never made either one, can anybody
>>tell me what these two cuts are like? Also, how would one prepare them?
>
> I've never even heard of a minute roast!
>

I had minute steak recently at a social event, didn't look like anything but
was actually delicious. I hope minute roast is what the minute steaks were
before being sliced. <g but serious>

On 9/5/2010 2:53 AM, Ellen K. wrote:
> I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but I
> don't see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see advertised are
> chuck eye roast and minute roast. I've never made either one, can
> anybody tell me what these two cuts are like? Also, how would one
> prepare them?

The chuck eye is a pot roast cut. You can make it like you would do a
brisket as it also needs slow braising.

L'shanna tova!

--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

Ellen K. wrote:
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but
>>> I don't see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see
>>> advertised are chuck eye roast and minute roast. I've never made
>>> either one, can anybody tell me what these two cuts are like? Also, how
>>> would one prepare them?
>>
>> I've never even heard of a minute roast!
>>
>
> I had minute steak recently at a social event, didn't look like
> anything but was actually delicious. I hope minute roast is what the
> minute steaks were before being sliced. <g but serious>

If so, it's going to be REALLY tough....minute steaks being pounded hard
before cooking. (I've never heard of a minute roast, either.)

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> Ellen K. wrote:
>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but
>>>> I don't see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see
>>>> advertised are chuck eye roast and minute roast. I've never made
>>>> either one, can anybody tell me what these two cuts are like? Also, how
>>>> would one prepare them?
>>>
>>> I've never even heard of a minute roast!
>>>
>>
>> I had minute steak recently at a social event, didn't look like
>> anything but was actually delicious. I hope minute roast is what the
>> minute steaks were before being sliced. <g but serious>
>
> If so, it's going to be REALLY tough....minute steaks being pounded hard
> before cooking. (I've never heard of a minute roast, either.)

I hadn't either until I Googled it.

http://www.mykoshermarket.com/Product_66_Company.html

Thanks very much for the new year greeting and same to you.

How I used to make brisket was:

Put a large piece of heavy duty tinfoil in the pan.
Slice some onions very thin and put some of them on the tinfoil.
Salt the meat on both sides, and put it fat side up on top of the onions.
Put the rest of the onions on top.
Cover and refrigerate at least an hour.
Uncover and put about a cup of water in the pan.
Brown about 20 minutes at 450-500 depending on the oven.
Turn the meat over (using the tinfoil) and brown another 20 minutes.
Turn the oven down to 325, turn the meat over again, make sure there are
lots of onions on top, add more water, cover, and cook 2 to 2 1/2 hours.

Does this help with the answer?

"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
...
> On 9/5/2010 2:53 AM, Ellen K. wrote:
>> I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but I
>> don't see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see advertised are
>> chuck eye roast and minute roast. I've never made either one, can
>> anybody tell me what these two cuts are like? Also, how would one
>> prepare them?
>
> The chuck eye is a pot roast cut. You can make it like you would do a
> brisket as it also needs slow braising.
>
> L'shanna tova!
>
> --
> Janet Wilder
> Way-the-heck-south Texas
> Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

On 9/5/2010 4:45 PM, Ellen K. wrote:
> Thanks very much for the new year greeting and same to you.
>
> How I used to make brisket was:
>
> Put a large piece of heavy duty tinfoil in the pan.
> Slice some onions very thin and put some of them on the tinfoil.
> Salt the meat on both sides, and put it fat side up on top of the onions.
> Put the rest of the onions on top.
> Cover and refrigerate at least an hour.
> Uncover and put about a cup of water in the pan.
> Brown about 20 minutes at 450-500 depending on the oven.
> Turn the meat over (using the tinfoil) and brown another 20 minutes.
> Turn the oven down to 325, turn the meat over again, make sure there are
> lots of onions on top, add more water, cover, and cook 2 to 2 1/2 hours.
>
> Does this help with the answer?

I usually don't salt my meat, but lots of onions is a good thing. I also
like to put a little beef broth in the foil and a little bit of dry red
wine. I think it helps to tenderize the meat. I like to season it with
garlic, bay leaf, thyme and margerom and some pepper. Some people won't
do a brisket without a little Heinz ketchup in the braising liquid.

--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
...
> On 9/5/2010 4:45 PM, Ellen K. wrote:
>> Thanks very much for the new year greeting and same to you.
>>
>> How I used to make brisket was:
>>
>> Put a large piece of heavy duty tinfoil in the pan.
>> Slice some onions very thin and put some of them on the tinfoil.
>> Salt the meat on both sides, and put it fat side up on top of the onions.
>> Put the rest of the onions on top.
>> Cover and refrigerate at least an hour.
>> Uncover and put about a cup of water in the pan.
>> Brown about 20 minutes at 450-500 depending on the oven.
>> Turn the meat over (using the tinfoil) and brown another 20 minutes.
>> Turn the oven down to 325, turn the meat over again, make sure there are
>> lots of onions on top, add more water, cover, and cook 2 to 2 1/2 hours.
>>
>> Does this help with the answer?
>
> I usually don't salt my meat, but lots of onions is a good thing. I also
> like to put a little beef broth in the foil and a little bit of dry red
> wine. I think it helps to tenderize the meat. I like to season it with
> garlic, bay leaf, thyme and margerom and some pepper. Some people won't do
> a brisket without a little Heinz ketchup in the braising liquid.
>
> --
> Janet Wilder
> Way-the-heck-south Texas
> Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

Well, I personally won't be eating the onions, or not more than a taste
anyway, but hopefully the taste will infuse the meat.

Ellen K. wrote:
> Thanks very much for the new year greeting and same to you.
>
> How I used to make brisket was:

<snip>

I highly recommend the recipe Nach Waxman's Brisket from The New Basics
Silver Palate cookbook. It is fabulous. A bit more laborious than your
version, but not terribly so.

Ellen K. > wrote:

: > : Yes, I am using kosher meat.
: >
: > : On kosher chicken I usually use salt substitute with the other spices,
: > but
: > : for chicken soup I put salt. I haven't made brisket in many years but
: > I'm
: > : pretty sure I used to use just a tiny bit, to help the onions soak in.
: >
: > You must have a pretty high salt taste. I no longer avoid it, but was
: > told to be off salt some 25 years ago and cooked low sodium fo many years
: > unil I found that it didn't spike my weight as I did not retain water when
: > I ate salt. I still cook rather low salt, as that has become my taste. I
: > do et pickles and olives, etc a flavor accent, but do not saalt my kosher
: > meat, including stews. i do salt soups now as they are much better that
: > way. I often use the parev "chicken" soup powdr in place of salt(never
: > in addition to it), as I regard it as a flavored salt.
: >
: > Wendy

: That pareve chicken soup powder IS salt, with some trans fat and a couple of
: parsley flakes added. But I can't deny that it really tastes good in some
: dishes. <g but serious>

: I don't really have such a high salt taste. I rinse all my meat and poultry
: pretty well before starting to prepare it, probably that removes some of the
: salt from the kashering.

When I was on the low sodium diet, I would soak the chicken in cold water
in teh fridge overnight, changing the water a few time. This got much of
the salt out of the chicken. It is deep inside so rinsing doesn't get to
it. I no longer have to do this, just a bit of a rinse while cleaning and
trimming the bird or its parts, add no salt. I thin my taste buds have
permanently changed:-)

Wendy

Here is my recipe for my caramelized brisket. It is an old family recipe
and never fails. You can use eithe a brisket or a top of the rib,
slightly leaner and cheaper, but the same kind of ropey grain. This time
I found it by Googling!

Wendy

Brisket, Caramelized (M, KLP, TNT)
Source: Celia C. Wisan to W. Baker
Serves: 6-12 depending on the size of the brisket
1 first cut brisket or top of the rib-3-7 lbs.
2-4 garlic cloves, peeled
salt and freshly ground pepper to taste
1-3 onions thinly sliced
3-4 fresh tomatoes (summer) or 4-5 canned plum tomatoes drained. Use juice
for another recipe. Do not use more tomatoes
1-3 bay leaves

At least one day before cooking, put slivers of garlic in slits all over
the brisket. Rub it well with freshly ground black pepper and optionally,
salt. Slice onions and arrange all over and under the roast. Marinate
covered in the fridge overnight.

Day of cooking: Preheat oven to 500 F--that's 500 !

Put meat in a roasting pan with a cover and arrange the onion slices from
the night before all around.

Squash either 3 medium fresh tomatoes or use about 4 canned egg tomatoes
and squash them. DO NOT ADD THE JUICE FROM THE CAN. ADD NO OTHER LIQUID
add a bay leaf or two.

Cover the pan and put it into the preheated 500F oven. After 15 minutes
turn
down the oven without opening it to 350 F. Cook for approximately 3 hours.
If you look in after 2 hours or so you will see a gray mass with lots of
liquid. Don't worry. Just keep cooking.

When the water has just about disappeared and the meat and onions etc. are
browned, but not quite burnt, and the meat is soft to a fork, it is done.

Remove the meat from the pan and make gravy by deglazing the pan with lots
of water (more than a quart to start, it can always be reduced) and
cooking it down until it tastes rich and nice to you. It should make
plenty of gravy as the pan drippings are intensely strong.

Slice the meat across the grain and serve with the gravy. Roast potatoes
or kasha go well with this.

This lends itself to preparation ahead of time and freezes well. When
reheating, bring the sliced meat to room temperature and heat the gravy to
boiling. Then pour it over the meat. Heating the meat in the gravy gives
it a boiled rather than roasted taste and is not as good.

Posted by Wendy Baker

Sounds yummy.

How amusing, to find your own recipe by googling!!!

"W. Baker" > wrote in message
...
> Here is my recipe for my caramelized brisket. It is an old family recipe
> and never fails. You can use eithe a brisket or a top of the rib,
> slightly leaner and cheaper, but the same kind of ropey grain. This time
> I found it by Googling!
>
> Wendy
>
> Brisket, Caramelized (M, KLP, TNT)
> Source: Celia C. Wisan to W. Baker
> Serves: 6-12 depending on the size of the brisket
> 1 first cut brisket or top of the rib-3-7 lbs.
> 2-4 garlic cloves, peeled
> salt and freshly ground pepper to taste
> 1-3 onions thinly sliced
> 3-4 fresh tomatoes (summer) or 4-5 canned plum tomatoes drained. Use juice
> for another recipe. Do not use more tomatoes
> 1-3 bay leaves
>
> At least one day before cooking, put slivers of garlic in slits all over
> the brisket. Rub it well with freshly ground black pepper and optionally,
> salt. Slice onions and arrange all over and under the roast. Marinate
> covered in the fridge overnight.
>
> Day of cooking: Preheat oven to 500 F--that's 500 !
>
> Put meat in a roasting pan with a cover and arrange the onion slices from
> the night before all around.
>
> Squash either 3 medium fresh tomatoes or use about 4 canned egg tomatoes
> and squash them. DO NOT ADD THE JUICE FROM THE CAN. ADD NO OTHER LIQUID
> add a bay leaf or two.
>
> Cover the pan and put it into the preheated 500F oven. After 15 minutes
> turn
> down the oven without opening it to 350 F. Cook for approximately 3 hours.
> If you look in after 2 hours or so you will see a gray mass with lots of
> liquid. Don't worry. Just keep cooking.
>
> When the water has just about disappeared and the meat and onions etc. are
> browned, but not quite burnt, and the meat is soft to a fork, it is done.
>
> Remove the meat from the pan and make gravy by deglazing the pan with lots
> of water (more than a quart to start, it can always be reduced) and
> cooking it down until it tastes rich and nice to you. It should make
> plenty of gravy as the pan drippings are intensely strong.
>
> Slice the meat across the grain and serve with the gravy. Roast potatoes
> or kasha go well with this.
>
> This lends itself to preparation ahead of time and freezes well. When
> reheating, bring the sliced meat to room temperature and heat the gravy to
> boiling. Then pour it over the meat. Heating the meat in the gravy gives
> it a boiled rather than roasted taste and is not as good.
>
> Posted by Wendy Baker
>

Thanks!

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> Ellen K. wrote:
>> Thanks very much for the new year greeting and same to you.
>>
>> How I used to make brisket was:
>
> <snip>
>
> I highly recommend the recipe Nach Waxman's Brisket from The New Basics
> Silver Palate cookbook. It is fabulous. A bit more laborious than your
> version, but not terribly so.
>
>

Ellen K. > wrote:
: Sounds yummy.

: How amusing, to find your own recipe by googling!!!

My younger son saaid he had found it in several places on google, so I
waned to try it:-) My Imber recipe, for Pesach is also supposed to be
running around. this i can testify to as I occasionaly get a question
from a stranger about the recipe. I wold not send it to thie group as it
consists of honey, matza farfel, groound nuts and ginger. The nuts
andginger might be ok, but the ret would be problematic, to say the
least:-)

Wendy


: "W. Baker" > wrote in message
: ...
: > Here is my recipe for my caramelized brisket. It is an old family recipe
: > and never fails. You can use eithe a brisket or a top of the rib,
: > slightly leaner and cheaper, but the same kind of ropey grain. This time
: > I found it by Googling!
: >
: > Wendy
: >
: > Brisket, Caramelized (M, KLP, TNT)
: > Source: Celia C. Wisan to W. Baker
: > Serves: 6-12 depending on the size of the brisket
: > 1 first cut brisket or top of the rib-3-7 lbs.
: > 2-4 garlic cloves, peeled
: > salt and freshly ground pepper to taste
: > 1-3 onions thinly sliced
: > 3-4 fresh tomatoes (summer) or 4-5 canned plum tomatoes drained. Use juice
: > for another recipe. Do not use more tomatoes
: > 1-3 bay leaves
: >
: > At least one day before cooking, put slivers of garlic in slits all over
: > the brisket. Rub it well with freshly ground black pepper and optionally,
: > salt. Slice onions and arrange all over and under the roast. Marinate
: > covered in the fridge overnight.
: >
: > Day of cooking: Preheat oven to 500 F--that's 500 !
: >
: > Put meat in a roasting pan with a cover and arrange the onion slices from
: > the night before all around.
: >
: > Squash either 3 medium fresh tomatoes or use about 4 canned egg tomatoes
: > and squash them. DO NOT ADD THE JUICE FROM THE CAN. ADD NO OTHER LIQUID
: > add a bay leaf or two.
: >
: > Cover the pan and put it into the preheated 500F oven. After 15 minutes
: > turn
: > down the oven without opening it to 350 F. Cook for approximately 3 hours.
: > If you look in after 2 hours or so you will see a gray mass with lots of
: > liquid. Don't worry. Just keep cooking.
: >
: > When the water has just about disappeared and the meat and onions etc. are
: > browned, but not quite burnt, and the meat is soft to a fork, it is done.
: >
: > Remove the meat from the pan and make gravy by deglazing the pan with lots
: > of water (more than a quart to start, it can always be reduced) and
: > cooking it down until it tastes rich and nice to you. It should make
: > plenty of gravy as the pan drippings are intensely strong.
: >
: > Slice the meat across the grain and serve with the gravy. Roast potatoes
: > or kasha go well with this.
: >
: > This lends itself to preparation ahead of time and freezes well. When
: > reheating, bring the sliced meat to room temperature and heat the gravy to
: > boiling. Then pour it over the meat. Heating the meat in the gravy gives
: > it a boiled rather than roasted taste and is not as good.
: >
: > Posted by Wendy Baker
: >

When I picked up my cousin yesterday to go vegetable shopping, she was in
the middle of making a farina kugel which she puts in her soup on Rosh
Hashana. (She got the recipe from her late sister-in-law, I never heard of
this anywhere else... she says it's just farina and eggs.) I was mentally
chuckling, something else I'll never eat. (She is ka"h 94 years old, I
haven't told her about my diagnosis, what does she need another thing to
worry about...)

"W. Baker" > wrote in message
...
> Ellen K. > wrote:
> : Sounds yummy.
>
> : How amusing, to find your own recipe by googling!!!
>
> My younger son saaid he had found it in several places on google, so I
> waned to try it:-) My Imber recipe, for Pesach is also supposed to be
> running around. this i can testify to as I occasionaly get a question
> from a stranger about the recipe. I wold not send it to thie group as it
> consists of honey, matza farfel, groound nuts and ginger. The nuts
> andginger might be ok, but the ret would be problematic, to say the
> least:-)
>
> Wendy
>
>
> : "W. Baker" > wrote in message
> : ...
> : > Here is my recipe for my caramelized brisket. It is an old family
> recipe
> : > and never fails. You can use eithe a brisket or a top of the rib,
> : > slightly leaner and cheaper, but the same kind of ropey grain. This
> time
> : > I found it by Googling!
> : >
> : > Wendy
> : >
> : > Brisket, Caramelized (M, KLP, TNT)
> : > Source: Celia C. Wisan to W. Baker
> : > Serves: 6-12 depending on the size of the brisket
> : > 1 first cut brisket or top of the rib-3-7 lbs.
> : > 2-4 garlic cloves, peeled
> : > salt and freshly ground pepper to taste
> : > 1-3 onions thinly sliced
> : > 3-4 fresh tomatoes (summer) or 4-5 canned plum tomatoes drained. Use
> juice
> : > for another recipe. Do not use more tomatoes
> : > 1-3 bay leaves
> : >
> : > At least one day before cooking, put slivers of garlic in slits all
> over
> : > the brisket. Rub it well with freshly ground black pepper and
> optionally,
> : > salt. Slice onions and arrange all over and under the roast. Marinate
> : > covered in the fridge overnight.
> : >
> : > Day of cooking: Preheat oven to 500 F--that's 500 !
> : >
> : > Put meat in a roasting pan with a cover and arrange the onion slices
> from
> : > the night before all around.
> : >
> : > Squash either 3 medium fresh tomatoes or use about 4 canned egg
> tomatoes
> : > and squash them. DO NOT ADD THE JUICE FROM THE CAN. ADD NO OTHER
> LIQUID
> : > add a bay leaf or two.
> : >
> : > Cover the pan and put it into the preheated 500F oven. After 15
> minutes
> : > turn
> : > down the oven without opening it to 350 F. Cook for approximately 3
> hours.
> : > If you look in after 2 hours or so you will see a gray mass with lots
> of
> : > liquid. Don't worry. Just keep cooking.
> : >
> : > When the water has just about disappeared and the meat and onions etc.
> are
> : > browned, but not quite burnt, and the meat is soft to a fork, it is
> done.
> : >
> : > Remove the meat from the pan and make gravy by deglazing the pan with
> lots
> : > of water (more than a quart to start, it can always be reduced) and
> : > cooking it down until it tastes rich and nice to you. It should make
> : > plenty of gravy as the pan drippings are intensely strong.
> : >
> : > Slice the meat across the grain and serve with the gravy. Roast
> potatoes
> : > or kasha go well with this.
> : >
> : > This lends itself to preparation ahead of time and freezes well. When
> : > reheating, bring the sliced meat to room temperature and heat the
> gravy to
> : > boiling. Then pour it over the meat. Heating the meat in the gravy
> gives
> : > it a boiled rather than roasted taste and is not as good.
> : >
> : > Posted by Wendy Baker
> : >
>

Welcome to my world, when I got to the butcher that had the grassfed beef
the only cut they had was a shoulder roast. (Which I'd also never made
before.) So I bought that.

I made it as planned but my cousin the legendary cook said I *had* to add
garlic, white pepper and paprika, so I did, but although it was done to
perfection it didn't taste like much, I think I undersalted and
underseasoned it.

I cut off a bit of what remained of my half (I always take half of
everything I make for each holiday to a mentally disturbed woman who lives
in the city and otherwise would not get holiday food, she doesn't want to be
my guest but is happy to get the goodies) to make my first attempt at a
"diabetic version" cholent for Shabbos day, which came out not bad although
more a soup than a cholent per se. I used about 3 oz of the meat, 1/4 cup
(dry measure) garbanzo beans since I previously established that I can
tolerate those quite well, 1 tbsp (dry measure) lentils (ditto re
tolerating), and 1 1/2 tsp barley (which I was afraid of but away from home
I usually take about a tablespoon full (cooked volume) without a problem), 7
whole garlic cloves, additional salt and white pepper, cayenne pepper, some
of the original gravy and onions, and additional water. [For anybody who
doesn't know how cholent is made, my method is that once all the ingredients
are in the pot one turns on the fire on high (I do this with the pot
uncovered), then when it boils one covers the pot, turns the heat down very
low, covers the fire (most people use a sheet of tin for this purpose, I use
a "heat diffuser"), and leaves it alone until lunchtime the next day. Since
the fire is covered by shortly before sunset on Friday, this means the
simmer time is about 18 hours.]

BG did go up to 150 about 45 minutes after this possibly too-generous meal
(which also included the now famous half-matzo and a small first course) but
I started the day with FBG of 134 and was still 115 on returning from
services, so I'm thinking on a normal Shabbos when I'm maybe 95 after
services this would really be fine. I didn't test again at two hours but
was back to 104 after my afternoon nap.

I think maybe I will cut up the rest of the meat and divide up the remaining
gravy and onions and freeze it in a bunch of small tupperwares to use for
future cholents. (I don't really like red meat enough to eat it up during
the week, and the butcher that carries the grassfed beef is in the city, so
like this I can avoid making another trip there for quite a while.)

Thanks again to all who provided advice about the cuts I originally asked
about, and for the interesting recipes.


"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
>I was thinking to try to get grass-fed brisket for Rosh Hashana but I don't
>see any advertised. The only grass-fed roasts I see advertised are chuck
>eye roast and minute roast. I've never made either one, can anybody tell
>me what these two cuts are like? Also, how would one prepare them?

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
> Welcome to my world, when I got to the butcher that had the grassfed beef
> the only cut they had was a shoulder roast. (Which I'd also never made
> before.) So I bought that.
>
> I made it as planned but my cousin the legendary cook said I *had* to add
> garlic, white pepper and paprika, so I did, but although it was done to
> perfection it didn't taste like much, I think I undersalted and
> underseasoned it.
>
> I cut off a bit of what remained of my half (I always take half of
> everything I make for each holiday to a mentally disturbed woman who lives
> in the city and otherwise would not get holiday food, she doesn't want to
> be my guest but is happy to get the goodies) to make my first attempt at a
> "diabetic version" cholent for Shabbos day, which came out not bad
> although more a soup than a cholent per se. I used about 3 oz of the
> meat, 1/4 cup (dry measure) garbanzo beans since I previously established
> that I can tolerate those quite well, 1 tbsp (dry measure) lentils (ditto
> re tolerating), and 1 1/2 tsp barley (which I was afraid of but away from
> home I usually take about a tablespoon full (cooked volume) without a
> problem), 7 whole garlic cloves, additional salt and white pepper,
> cayenne pepper, some of the original gravy and onions, and additional
> water. [For anybody who doesn't know how cholent is made, my method is
> that once all the ingredients are in the pot one turns on the fire on high
> (I do this with the pot uncovered), then when it boils one covers the pot,
> turns the heat down very low, covers the fire (most people use a sheet of
> tin for this purpose, I use a "heat diffuser"), and leaves it alone until
> lunchtime the next day. Since the fire is covered by shortly before
> sunset on Friday, this means the simmer time is about 18 hours.]
>
> BG did go up to 150 about 45 minutes after this possibly too-generous meal
> (which also included the now famous half-matzo and a small first course)
> but I started the day with FBG of 134 and was still 115 on returning from
> services, so I'm thinking on a normal Shabbos when I'm maybe 95 after
> services this would really be fine. I didn't test again at two hours but
> was back to 104 after my afternoon nap.
>
> I think maybe I will cut up the rest of the meat and divide up the
> remaining gravy and onions and freeze it in a bunch of small tupperwares
> to use for future cholents. (I don't really like red meat enough to eat
> it up during the week, and the butcher that carries the grassfed beef is
> in the city, so like this I can avoid making another trip there for quite
> a while.)
>
> Thanks again to all who provided advice about the cuts I originally asked
> about, and for the interesting recipes.

Did you find that the grass-fed cooked differently than regular beef? I
haven't personally noticed this except that perhaps it is a more lean meat.
But I was watching a cooking show and one chef who had never cooked it
before claimed that it cooked a lot faster. That was her excuse for
overcooking it. Heh!

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Welcome to my world, when I got to the butcher that had the grassfed beef
>> the only cut they had was a shoulder roast. (Which I'd also never made
>> before.) So I bought that.
>>
>> I made it as planned but my cousin the legendary cook said I *had* to add
>> garlic, white pepper and paprika, so I did, but although it was done to
>> perfection it didn't taste like much, I think I undersalted and
>> underseasoned it.
>>
>> I cut off a bit of what remained of my half (I always take half of
>> everything I make for each holiday to a mentally disturbed woman who
>> lives in the city and otherwise would not get holiday food, she doesn't
>> want to be my guest but is happy to get the goodies) to make my first
>> attempt at a "diabetic version" cholent for Shabbos day, which came out
>> not bad although more a soup than a cholent per se. I used about 3 oz of
>> the meat, 1/4 cup (dry measure) garbanzo beans since I previously
>> established that I can tolerate those quite well, 1 tbsp (dry measure)
>> lentils (ditto re tolerating), and 1 1/2 tsp barley (which I was afraid
>> of but away from home I usually take about a tablespoon full (cooked
>> volume) without a problem), 7 whole garlic cloves, additional salt and
>> white pepper, cayenne pepper, some of the original gravy and onions, and
>> additional water. [For anybody who doesn't know how cholent is made, my
>> method is that once all the ingredients are in the pot one turns on the
>> fire on high (I do this with the pot uncovered), then when it boils one
>> covers the pot, turns the heat down very low, covers the fire (most
>> people use a sheet of tin for this purpose, I use a "heat diffuser"), and
>> leaves it alone until lunchtime the next day. Since the fire is covered
>> by shortly before sunset on Friday, this means the simmer time is about
>> 18 hours.]
>>
>> BG did go up to 150 about 45 minutes after this possibly too-generous
>> meal (which also included the now famous half-matzo and a small first
>> course) but I started the day with FBG of 134 and was still 115 on
>> returning from services, so I'm thinking on a normal Shabbos when I'm
>> maybe 95 after services this would really be fine. I didn't test again
>> at two hours but was back to 104 after my afternoon nap.
>>
>> I think maybe I will cut up the rest of the meat and divide up the
>> remaining gravy and onions and freeze it in a bunch of small tupperwares
>> to use for future cholents. (I don't really like red meat enough to eat
>> it up during the week, and the butcher that carries the grassfed beef is
>> in the city, so like this I can avoid making another trip there for quite
>> a while.)
>>
>> Thanks again to all who provided advice about the cuts I originally asked
>> about, and for the interesting recipes.
>
> Did you find that the grass-fed cooked differently than regular beef? I
> haven't personally noticed this except that perhaps it is a more lean
> meat. But I was watching a cooking show and one chef who had never cooked
> it before claimed that it cooked a lot faster. That was her excuse for
> overcooking it. Heh!

I made it such that total cooking time was 20 min per pound, the "doneness"
was exactly right, about "medium rare".

Ellen K. > wrote:
>[For anybody who doesn't know how cholent is made, my method is that once all
the ingredients are in the pot one turns on the fire on high (I do this with
the pot uncovered), then when it boils one covers the pot, turns the heat down
very low, covers the fire (most people use a sheet of tin for this purpose, I
use a "heat diffuser"), and leaves it alone until lunchtime the next day.
Since the fire is covered by shortly before sunset on Friday, this means the
>simmer time is about 18 hours.]

If a baby needs warm milk on the sabbath, will orthodox Jews heat it?

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>[For anybody who doesn't know how cholent is made, my method is that once
>>all
> the ingredients are in the pot one turns on the fire on high (I do this
> with
> the pot uncovered), then when it boils one covers the pot, turns the heat
> down
> very low, covers the fire (most people use a sheet of tin for this
> purpose, I
> use a "heat diffuser"), and leaves it alone until lunchtime the next day.
> Since the fire is covered by shortly before sunset on Friday, this means
> the
>>simmer time is about 18 hours.]
>
> If a baby needs warm milk on the sabbath, will orthodox Jews heat it?
>
> Orlando

The short answer is yes.

The process is as follows:

In order to be able to have hot coffee and/or tea over the sabbath, hot
water is kept available by using usually an electric urn of the type you
will find at buffets, although some still use a regular teakettle that sits
from Friday afternoon on the metal sheet that covers the other fires on the
stove. The urn or teakettle is filled and heated prior to the sabbath, no
new water is added on the sabbath.

When it's time for the baby to eat, the baby bottle is stood in an empty pot
and hot water from the urn is poured over it into the pot. The bottle then
continues to warm up in the hot water. This process can be repeated if the
milk does not become warm enough after one pouring. The only restrictions
are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F (which would
anyway be too hot for a baby to drink), and that the hot water poured over
the bottle is not allowed to completely submerge it (which most people would
anyway not do).

It's also possible to use an electric bottle warmer that was on since before
the sabbath, provided it either has a thermostat that can be set not to
exceed 113 F, or is designed so as never to reach that temperature in the
first place. If it is the type with a thermostat, it must be actively
heating at the time the bottle is placed in it.

The reason for the temperature limitiation is that it is permitted to WARM
the milk, but not to COOK it.

"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
...
> On 9/14/2010 10:30 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>> Ellen > wrote:
>>> [For anybody who doesn't know how cholent is made, my method is that
>>> once all
>> the ingredients are in the pot one turns on the fire on high (I do this
>> with
>> the pot uncovered), then when it boils one covers the pot, turns the heat
>> down
>> very low, covers the fire (most people use a sheet of tin for this
>> purpose, I
>> use a "heat diffuser"), and leaves it alone until lunchtime the next day.
>> Since the fire is covered by shortly before sunset on Friday, this means
>> the
>>> simmer time is about 18 hours.]
>>
>> If a baby needs warm milk on the sabbath, will orthodox Jews heat it?
>>
>
> The milk comes warm from the breast.
>
> Please leave it. This last "question" is reflecting badly on you.

I thought the same.

Janet Wilder > wrote:
>The milk comes warm from the breast.

Even when mothers are unable to continue breast feeding or when babies need
fortified milk?

>Please leave it. This last "question" is reflecting badly on you.

Not at all. Jews don't like it when their absurd legalism is pointed out.

Orlando

Ellen K. > wrote:
>In order to be able to have hot coffee and/or tea over the sabbath, hot
>water is kept available by using usually an electric urn of the type you
>will find at buffets, although some still use a regular teakettle that sits
>from Friday afternoon on the metal sheet that covers the other fires on the
>stove. The urn or teakettle is filled and heated prior to the sabbath, no
>new water is added on the sabbath.

That sort of makes sense.

>When it's time for the baby to eat, the baby bottle is stood in an empty pot
>and hot water from the urn is poured over it into the pot. The bottle then
>continues to warm up in the hot water. This process can be repeated if the
>milk does not become warm enough after one pouring. The only restrictions
>are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F (which would
>anyway be too hot for a baby to drink), and that the hot water poured over
>the bottle is not allowed to completely submerge it (which most people would
>anyway not do).

Interesting.

>It's also possible to use an electric bottle warmer that was on since before
>the sabbath, provided it either has a thermostat that can be set not to
>exceed 113 F, or is designed so as never to reach that temperature in the
>first place. If it is the type with a thermostat, it must be actively
>heating at the time the bottle is placed in it.

Why?

>The reason for the temperature limitation is that it is permitted to WARM
>the milk, but not to COOK it.


But if the milk had been kept at a simmer from before the sabbath, it would of
course be allowed to boil. Go figure!

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Janet Wilder > wrote:
>>The milk comes warm from the breast.
>
> Even when mothers are unable to continue breast feeding or when babies
> need
> fortified milk?
>
>>Please leave it. This last "question" is reflecting badly on you.
>
> Not at all. Jews don't like it when their absurd legalism is pointed out.

And that was even worse!

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>In order to be able to have hot coffee and/or tea over the sabbath, hot
>>water is kept available by using usually an electric urn of the type you
>>will find at buffets, although some still use a regular teakettle that
>>sits
>>from Friday afternoon on the metal sheet that covers the other fires on
>>the
>>stove. The urn or teakettle is filled and heated prior to the sabbath, no
>>new water is added on the sabbath.
>
> That sort of makes sense.
>
>>When it's time for the baby to eat, the baby bottle is stood in an empty
>>pot
>>and hot water from the urn is poured over it into the pot. The bottle
>>then
>>continues to warm up in the hot water. This process can be repeated if
>>the
>>milk does not become warm enough after one pouring. The only restrictions
>>are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F (which would
>>anyway be too hot for a baby to drink), and that the hot water poured over
>>the bottle is not allowed to completely submerge it (which most people
>>would
>>anyway not do).
>
> Interesting.
>
>>It's also possible to use an electric bottle warmer that was on since
>>before
>>the sabbath, provided it either has a thermostat that can be set not to
>>exceed 113 F, or is designed so as never to reach that temperature in the
>>first place. If it is the type with a thermostat, it must be actively
>>heating at the time the bottle is placed in it.
>
> Why?

So that putting the bottle in doesn't cause the heat to start, since that is
a type of kindling a fire.

>
>>The reason for the temperature limitation is that it is permitted to WARM
>>the milk, but not to COOK it.
>
>
> But if the milk had been kept at a simmer from before the sabbath, it
> would of
> course be allowed to boil. Go figure!
>

Something at a simmer isn't boiling. We don't adjust the flame on the stove
on the sabbath, so whatever started out simmering continues simmering but
there's no way for it to boil. In the case of the milk, it is never on the
stove in any case.

The prohibition is against *starting* cooking something on the sabbath.
Similarly, there is a prohibition against kindling a fire on the sabbath,
but no prohibition to benefit from a pre-existing fire. Broadly one could
say there is a theme of not "creating".







> Orlando

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:57:41 -0700, "Ellen K."
> wrote:

>The only restrictions
>are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F

Why that precise figure, Ellen, do you know?

Nicky (intrigued...)

"Nicky" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:57:41 -0700, "Ellen K."
> > wrote:
>
>>The only restrictions
>>are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F
>
> Why that precise figure, Ellen, do you know?
>
> Nicky (intrigued...)

I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself, however it
might be related to the more general rule that in order to put a cooked
solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not further cook) it on
the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a temperature where a normal person
can comfortably rest their hand. So I would guess maybe it has been
determined that somewhere around 45 C is the highest temperature where a
normal person can comfortably rest their hand.

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
news
>
> "Nicky" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:57:41 -0700, "Ellen K."
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>The only restrictions
>>>are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F
>>
>> Why that precise figure, Ellen, do you know?
>>
>> Nicky (intrigued...)
>
> I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself,
> however it might be related to the more general rule that in order to
> put a cooked solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not
> further cook) it on the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a
> temperature where a normal person can comfortably rest their hand. So
> I would guess maybe it has been determined that somewhere around 45 C
> is the highest temperature where a normal person can comfortably rest
> their hand.


I remember our Anglican minister from 20 odd years ago. It was ok for
essential services staff to wok on the Sabbath but no one else. He was
very strict on not buying anything from a store on a Sunday because the
store shouldn't even be open. I am afraid I bought Sunday papers, milk
and bread and fuel if necessary and gasp! I cooked on Sundays ... I
don't heed man made rules personally (not of that nature anyway). To me
my "faith" is the most important thing, not the "rules", the threats of
a hell or a need to jump through xyz hoops to get into "heaven". I
believe it was the late Chuck who said I was a fundamentalist, I have no
idea what that means

"Ozgirl" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> news
>>
>> "Nicky" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:57:41 -0700, "Ellen K."
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>The only restrictions
>>>>are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F
>>>
>>> Why that precise figure, Ellen, do you know?
>>>
>>> Nicky (intrigued...)
>>
>> I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself, however
>> it might be related to the more general rule that in order to put a
>> cooked solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not further
>> cook) it on the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a temperature where a
>> normal person can comfortably rest their hand. So I would guess maybe it
>> has been determined that somewhere around 45 C is the highest temperature
>> where a normal person can comfortably rest their hand.
>
>
> I remember our Anglican minister from 20 odd years ago. It was ok for
> essential services staff to wok on the Sabbath but no one else. He was
> very strict on not buying anything from a store on a Sunday because the
> store shouldn't even be open. I am afraid I bought Sunday papers, milk and
> bread and fuel if necessary and gasp! I cooked on Sundays ... I don't
> heed man made rules personally (not of that nature anyway). To me my
> "faith" is the most important thing, not the "rules", the threats of a
> hell or a need to jump through xyz hoops to get into "heaven". I believe
> it was the late Chuck who said I was a fundamentalist, I have no idea what
> that means

Everybody is entitled to follow their own religion, or no religion at all.
I vaguely remember that Protestantism's big innovation was the "faith alone"
idea, sounds like that's where you are comfortable. Normative Judaism is
about how one lives in *this* world, not about getting into "heaven", but
the "how one lives in this world" includes many concrete aspects of everyday
life in addition to the very important more abstract ones like the way one
treats other people.

Ellen K. > wrote:

: > "Ellen K." > wrote in message
: > ...
: >> Welcome to my world, when I got to the butcher that had the grassfed beef
: >> the only cut they had was a shoulder roast. (Which I'd also never made
: >> before.) So I bought that.
: >>
: >> I made it as planned but my cousin the legendary cook said I *had* to add
: >> garlic, white pepper and paprika, so I did, but although it was done to
: >> perfection it didn't taste like much, I think I undersalted and
: >> underseasoned it.
: >>

: I made it such that total cooking time was 20 min per pound, the "doneness"
: was exactly right, about "medium rare".

Shoulder rost is one of my favorites. I make it as a dry roasted roast
beef. I do seaon it well before cooking. the day before I rub it all
over with a garlic clove adn put slivers of garlic into slits in the
roast. I also generosly rub it with fresly ground black pepper adn place
some thinly sliced onions all around adn over and under it and refrigerate
it fo rteh night. when cook it, i do put the onions around it in the
open roasting dish adn I lie to ccok it tat a high temperature, abouat 450
so it gets very nicely browned wile staying rare inside. I use a
thermometer to test for doneness. I like it rare. Once it gets to about
120F inside, I remover from teh oven tand pt it on a platter adn tent it
with foil . I then make a gravy by deglazing the pan with all the
browned onion with either plain water or, if I have some around, dry red
wine, making sure to scrape all the goodness from the pan. i will also
add the juice tht collect in the platter while the meat rests. this makes
a wonderful, lean roast beef that makes great sandwiches etcfor the next
day(if anything is left:-)

Notice that I did not mention salt, as I use kosher meat that has been
soaked and salted by the butcher to remove much of the blood from the
meat. Observant jews do not eat this blood because , in the Torah(the
first 5 books of the Bible) is says not to drink th eblood as the blood is
the life. It is a way of constantly letting you know that a life was
given for you to eat and that life should be remembered adn not a bused.

Wendy

Alan S > wrote:
>That post you just made was a surprise to me. Despite your claims of
>brilliance, your insensitivity on the stess/parenting thread and some
>of the other silly posts you have made on diabetes I had not picked up
>the anti-semitism those four simple words "Jews don't like it" makes
>very clear.

I am appalled by your reading of four simple words. If I said, "My mother
doesn't like it," would that mean I'm against my mother? Fact is, many Jews
don't like when legalism in their religion is pointed out. They equate devotion
and orthodoxy with following the letter of the law. It is not at all
antisemitic to advocate liberation from the law.

Orlando

Ellen K. > wrote:
>Similarly, there is a prohibition against kindling a fire on the sabbath,
>but no prohibition to benefit from a pre-existing fire. Broadly one could
>say there is a theme of not "creating".

Except that the sabbath can only exist because God creates it from week to
week. So someone is doing the creating.

Orlando

Ellen K. > wrote:
>I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself, however it
>might be related to the more general rule that in order to put a cooked
>solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not further cook) it on
>the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a temperature where a normal person
>can comfortably rest their hand. So I would guess maybe it has been
>determined that somewhere around 45 C is the highest temperature where a
>normal person can comfortably rest their hand.

Men have made these absurdly legalistic laws oblivious of bacterial issues and
food needing to be hotter than comfortable hand resting temperature. It's a
shame that you are imprisoned by man made laws masquerading as divine
ordinances.

Orlando

Ellen K. > wrote:
>I vaguely remember that Protestantism's big innovation was the "faith alone"
>idea, sounds like that's where you are comfortable. Normative Judaism is
>about how one lives in *this* world, not about getting into "heaven", but
>the "how one lives in this world" includes many concrete aspects of everyday
>life in addition to the very important more abstract ones like the way one
>treats other people.

Nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in this world is diminished
if you kindle a fire on shabat or give God thanks without first eating bread.
These are man made laws with no practical or spiritual basis other than the
pleasure in dictating to observant Jews how they should live.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Alan S > wrote:
>>That post you just made was a surprise to me. Despite your claims of
>>brilliance, your insensitivity on the stess/parenting thread and some
>>of the other silly posts you have made on diabetes I had not picked up
>>the anti-semitism those four simple words "Jews don't like it" makes
>>very clear.
>
> I am appalled by your reading of four simple words. If I said, "My mother
> doesn't like it," would that mean I'm against my mother? Fact is, many
> Jews
> don't like when legalism in their religion is pointed out. They equate
> devotion
> and orthodoxy with following the letter of the law. It is not at all
> antisemitic to advocate liberation from the law.

When you phrase it like that, it is.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself, however
>>it
>>might be related to the more general rule that in order to put a cooked
>>solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not further cook) it on
>>the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a temperature where a normal person
>>can comfortably rest their hand. So I would guess maybe it has been
>>determined that somewhere around 45 C is the highest temperature where a
>>normal person can comfortably rest their hand.
>
> Men have made these absurdly legalistic laws oblivious of bacterial issues
> and
> food needing to be hotter than comfortable hand resting temperature. It's
> a
> shame that you are imprisoned by man made laws masquerading as divine
> ordinances.

OMG! This just keeps getting worse and worse.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>I vaguely remember that Protestantism's big innovation was the "faith
>>alone"
>>idea, sounds like that's where you are comfortable. Normative Judaism is
>>about how one lives in *this* world, not about getting into "heaven", but
>>the "how one lives in this world" includes many concrete aspects of
>>everyday
>>life in addition to the very important more abstract ones like the way one
>>treats other people.
>
> Nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in this world is
> diminished
> if you kindle a fire on shabat or give God thanks without first eating
> bread.
> These are man made laws with no practical or spiritual basis other than
> the
> pleasure in dictating to observant Jews how they should live.

By the same token, nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in
this world is diminished if you don't take communion. Or eat fish on
Fridays. Or on Christmas Eve. Or don't eat beef. Or... Or... See what I
mean?