Hi everyone,

I use liquid sour (50/50 flour to water) to make my white bread. The sour
itself tastes as sour as hell, the dough is sour but the taste of the baked
bread is very neutral, very similar to ordinary commercial yeasted bread.

I use liquid sour since the stiff one is less sour than the liquid one,
hardly any acid in it.

At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality produce beautiful
sourdough breads with various degrees of sourness - from mild to a very
strong , San Francisco type. Any ideas about what is happening to my bread?
I have tryed a few different starters but to no avail.

Regards Michael

On Fri, 22 May 2009 17:06:04 +1000, "Mike" >
wrote:

>Hi everyone,
>
>I use liquid sour (50/50 flour to water) to make my white bread. The sour
>itself tastes as sour as hell, the dough is sour but the taste of the baked
>bread is very neutral, very similar to ordinary commercial yeasted bread.
>
>I use liquid sour since the stiff one is less sour than the liquid one,
>hardly any acid in it.
>
>At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality produce beautiful
>sourdough breads with various degrees of sourness - from mild to a very
>strong , San Francisco type. Any ideas about what is happening to my bread?
>I have tryed a few different starters but to no avail.
>
>Regards Michael
>

Can you post your recipe and method?

Boron

"Mike" > wrote in message ...
> the taste of the baked bread is very neutral, very similar to ordinary
> commercial yeasted bread.

The usual cause of not-sour is not long enough to rise.

12 hours rising at room temperature is somewhere in the right ballpark.

"Mike" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I use liquid sour (50/50 flour to water) to make my white bread. The sour
> itself tastes as sour as hell, the dough is sour but the taste of the
> baked bread is very neutral, very similar to ordinary commercial yeasted
> bread.
>
> I use liquid sour since the stiff one is less sour than the liquid one,
> hardly any acid in it.
>
> At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality

I've heard of bakeries in cellars but not in wells!

Mike wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I use liquid sour (50/50 flour to water) to make my white bread. The sour
> itself tastes as sour as hell, the dough is sour but the taste of the baked
> bread is very neutral, very similar to ordinary commercial yeasted bread.
>
> I use liquid sour since the stiff one is less sour than the liquid one,
> hardly any acid in it.
>
> At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality produce beautiful
> sourdough breads with various degrees of sourness - from mild to a very
> strong , San Francisco type. Any ideas about what is happening to my bread?
> I have tryed a few different starters but to no avail.
>
> Regards Michael
>
>
I also like the small amount of starter and long rise at room
temperature for making the nice sour loaf. Dick's 12 hours is about right.

If I use more starter per volume, like 2 cups of sponge per 'dose' of
yeast vs a walnut sized chunk for two loaves, I can make them rise
faster but at the expense of the sour.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

On Fri, 22 May 2009 09:15:28 -0600, "graham"
> wrote:
>>
>> At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality
>
>I've heard of bakeries in cellars but not in wells!
>

Hi Graham,

I do suspect that in the current economy, more than one
bakery is under water.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 22 May 2009 09:15:28 -0600, "graham"
> > wrote:
>>>
>>> At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality
>>
>>I've heard of bakeries in cellars but not in wells!
>>
>
> Hi Graham,
>
> I do suspect that in the current economy, more than one
> bakery is under water.
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
It's also possible that people are taking sandwiches to work/school rather
than eating out. The supermarkets up here appear to be doing well. Staples
and Home Depot are not.
Graham

2009/5/22 Mike >:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I use liquid sour (50/50 flour to water) to make my white bread. The sour
> itself tastes as sour as hell, the dough is sour but the taste of the baked
> bread is very neutral, very similar to ordinary commercial yeasted bread.
>
> I use liquid sour since the stiff one is less sour than the liquid one,
> hardly any acid in it.
>
> At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality produce beautiful
> sourdough breads with various degrees of sourness - from mild to a very
> strong , San Francisco type. Any ideas about what is happening to my bread?
> I have tryed a few different starters but to no avail.
>

This depends on several factors - not necessarily narrowed down due to
lack of information of factors involved.

If the starter is "very" sour, it could be too old and lacks active
organisms. Why it still rises would be another question in a better
known context.

- Ratio of starter/final dough plays a role.
- Fermentation temperature.
- Fermentation length
- flour type - here probably white wheat flour with low ash content
All this would be very much determined by the starter growing procedure used.

The fermentation times of 12 hours at room temperature mentioned here
- 21 C (70 F)... can well be - sounds long though.

My current fermentation time with 60/40 Rye/wheat mix and 34 % starter
flour, 67 % hydration, 2 % salt is 2 + 2 1/2 hours at 30 C (86 F)
fermentation (bulk and 2. rise) makes mildly sour bread. Fermenting 1
hour longer makes noticeably more sour bread and affects bread shape
(loafs are getting wider).

With white refined flour which you are probably using, it's hard to say.

It's always interesting to see posts asking questions lacking
information to determine the actual cause of the problem and then -
when asked for more relevant information, nothing comes back.

Is it too complex to deal with the issues at hand or are the comments
here getting too silly to encourage a relevant response with more
information?

It's like: My car doesn't run right. I put gas in the tank but it
just doesn't run right. My neighbor's car runs just fine. What could
be wrong?

S.

>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>I use liquid sour (50/50 flour to water) to make my white bread. The sour
>>itself tastes as sour as hell, the dough is sour but the taste of the
>>baked
>>bread is very neutral, very similar to ordinary commercial yeasted bread.
>>
>>I use liquid sour since the stiff one is less sour than the liquid one,
>>hardly any acid in it.
>>
>>At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality produce beautiful
>>sourdough breads with various degrees of sourness - from mild to a very
>>strong , San Francisco type. Any ideas about what is happening to my
>>bread?
>>I have tryed a few different starters but to no avail.
>>
>>Regards Michael



Hi everyone, the bread lovers and the grammar purists,

,


1.. 'If the starter is "very" sour, it could be too old and lacks active
organisms. Why it still rises would be another question in a better
known context."
I think that the yeast bacteria and the lactobacilli are alive and plentiful
since I can always rebuild the sour, bubbly and very acidy using a portion
of old sour as a starter.



2 - Ratio of starter/final dough plays a role.
Fermentation temperature.
Fermentation length
flour type - here probably white wheat flour with low ash content
All this would be very much determined by the starter growing procedure
used.



I have tried various starter/dough ratios, up to 50% starter flour/ flour
with similar and disappointing results.

Bulk fermentation time 5-6 hours at room temperature (22 - 24 C)



3 The recipe:

White flour (13 % gluten content) - 100%

Sour (50/50 flour to water) - 2%

Water - 60 %

Bulk fermentation - 6 h

Proofing - 2.5 h

Baking 230 C for 40 min



I am getting pretty good results with my rye bread using stiff rye sour but
I fail to make wholly white bread using totally white sour. Is it possible
at all in anyone's experience?

Regards

Mike

On Mon, 25 May 2009 10:31:30 +1000, "Mike"
> wrote:

>I am getting pretty good results with my rye bread using stiff rye sour but
>I fail to make wholly white bread using totally white sour. Is it possible
>at all in anyone's experience?

Hi Mike,

I may have missed something, but I don't understand the
problem you are describing above.

When you say that you "fail to make wholly white bread" what
do you mean?

Specifically, what are you trying to achieve that fails?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

2009/5/24 Mike >:
>
>
>
> Hi everyone, the bread lovers and the grammar purists,
>

> I think that the yeast bacteria and the lactobacilli are alive and plentiful
> since I can always rebuild the sour, bubbly and very acidy using a portion
> of old sour as a starter.
>
>ctivity by itself does not reveal the actual actors behind. Maybe your ratio between yeast and LB's is too much on the yeast side?


> I have tried various starter/dough ratios, up to 50% starter flour/ flour
> with similar and disappointing results.
>

If you have varied several factors and the result is still not what
you like - what is the common denominator you have not yet changed?

> Bulk fermentation time 5-6 hours at room temperature (22 - 24 C)

ok - maybe that's it?

There is some sweet spot, where both critters grow equally - something
around 28 C ??

Some learned person stated somewhere that the yeasts drop out after a
number of refreshments at higher temperature - maybe 34 C -isch?

Maybe that's a direction to explore since your hydration variation
changed something - just not what you wanted - more sourness.

> 3 The recipe:
>
> White flour (13 % gluten content) - 100%
>
> Sour (50/50 flour to water) - 2%
>
> Water - 60 %
>
> Bulk fermentation - 6 h
>
> Proofing - 2.5 h
>
> Baking 230 C for 40 min
>
With this - are you talking baker's % i. e. every percent number is
relative to total flour?

In any case - your 2 % (whichever % method) and half of it could be
water appears puny to what's (IMO) good - 10 - 20 % starter flour
(baker's %) with white - if you have a 1000 g dough with 60 %
hydration - 100 % is flour, 60 % relative to that water. That would be
625 g flour and 375 g water - from your 625 g flour, you have 1 % (1/2
of your 50/50 starter) - something like 6 g starter flour - 12 g
starter, a TB or something, could that be right? If that's right -
that's another aspect to consider.

If you insist on 2 % - the 6 h fermentation look too short - maybe
double or triple that.

I would not do this kind of stuff when there is a general problem with
something. That's an "out of order" recipe and requires some other
measures - lower hydration (stiffer dough), longer dough fermentation
and a functional starter (getting sour) to get a good result.

Also - with low stater %, you invite contamination i. e. something
else starts to grow.

> I am getting pretty good results with my rye bread using stiff rye sour but
> I fail to make wholly white bread using totally white sour. Is it possible
> at all in anyone's experience?

If you use the same starter % (and it is not a typo) who knows what is
happening with the rye, sure won't work. Must be a totally different
recipe then.

See if that gets you anything,

Sam

Hi,
Awfully sorry for the dreadfull blander in my last posting:
The recipy supposed to be:
White flour (13 % gluten content) - 100%

Sour (50/50 flour to water) - up to 100%

Salt - 2%

Water - 60 %

Bulk fermentation - 6 h

Proofing - 2.5 h

Baking 230 C for 40 min

And those are baker's %%

Regards Mike

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 25 May 2009 10:31:30 +1000, "Mike"
> > wrote:
>
>>I am getting pretty good results with my rye bread using stiff rye sour
>>but
>>I fail to make wholly white bread using totally white sour. Is it possible
>>at all in anyone's experience?
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I may have missed something, but I don't understand the
> problem you are describing above.
>
> When you say that you "fail to make wholly white bread" what
> do you mean?
>
> Specifically, what are you trying to achieve that fails?
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Mike wrote:
> Hi,
> Awfully sorry for the dreadfull blander in my last posting:
> The recipy supposed to be:
> White flour (13 % gluten content) - 100%
>
> Sour (50/50 flour to water) - up to 100%
>
> Salt - 2%
>
> Water - 60 %
>
> Bulk fermentation - 6 h
>
> Proofing - 2.5 h
>
> Baking 230 C for 40 min
>
> And those are baker's %%
>
> Regards Mike
>
Clear like mud....

You folks and your 'bakers' 'percents'....

Sorry, but they still don't make sense... 262% total eh...

If I want a fast rise time for 'white' flour bread, I use 2 cups of
foamy 'active' starter (pancake batter consistency, stirs down to one
cup) for one 'dose' of yeast to a total recipe of 5-6 cups of flour and
one tbsp salt with enough water (2 cups approx) to make a sticky dough
for two loaves. This makes a mild tasting sourdough bread.

One 'dose' of yeast is one packet or one scant tablespoon or 2 1/4
teaspoons or one block. I got this 'conversion' rate from The Joy Of
Cooking cookbook and it works for most things that call for yeast.

This will rise in the afternoon for an evening bake or take 4-6 hours.
Makes a 'very' good pizza crust also.

If I want a sour loaf, I use Dicks recipe modified slightly for hand mixing:
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/billowy.html

My loaves come out as nice looking as Dicks. The starter must be active
and growing good so several pre-feeds are needed from the fridge storage
stage to the useful stage.

Dicks 'Billowy' recipe is a nice consistent working one also.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

On Mon, 25 May 2009 17:44:46 +1000, "Mike"
> wrote:
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 25 May 2009 10:31:30 +1000, "Mike"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>I am getting pretty good results with my rye bread using stiff rye sour
>>>but
>>>I fail to make wholly white bread using totally white sour. Is it possible
>>>at all in anyone's experience?
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I may have missed something, but I don't understand the
>> problem you are describing above.
>>
>> When you say that you "fail to make wholly white bread" what
>> do you mean?
>>
>> Specifically, what are you trying to achieve that fails?
>>
>> All the best,
>> --
>> Kenneth
>>
>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>

>Hi,
>Awfully sorry for the dreadfull blander in my last posting:
>The recipy supposed to be:
>White flour (13 % gluten content) - 100%
>
>Sour (50/50 flour to water) - up to 100%
>
>Salt - 2%
>
>Water - 60 %
>
>Bulk fermentation - 6 h
>
>Proofing - 2.5 h
>
>Baking 230 C for 40 min
>
> And those are baker's %%
>
>Regards Mike
>

Hi again Mike,

I'll try again -

When you do what you have described:

Specifically, what are you trying to achieve that fails?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

2009/5/25 Mike >:
> Hi,
> Awfully sorry for the dreadfull blander in my last posting:
> The recipy supposed to be:
> White flour (13 % gluten content) - 100%
>
> Sour (50/50 flour to water) - up to 100%
>
> Salt - 2%
>
> Water - 60 %
>
> Bulk fermentation - 6 h
>
> Proofing - 2.5 h
>
> Baking 230 C for 40 min
>
> And those are baker's %%
>
> Regards Mike
>

Eh Mike - let's drop the %.
(can't do the cup measuring game though)

Looks you are doing a regular routine and your starter is alive but
doesn't get sour when you do your starter growing and rising at room
temperature.

Suggest to find a warmer place (32 C) and grow your starter and do
your dough rising.

What may be interesting is how much starter you use for your recipes
(rye and non-rye) - the 100 % sure don't make sense.

Sam

(and I sure not use yeast to cheat myself out of any starter deficiencies)

On May 22, 2:06*am, "Mike" > wrote:

> At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality *produce beautiful
> sourdough breads with various degrees of sourness - from mild to a very
> strong , San Francisco type. Any ideas about what is happening to my bread?
> I have tryed a few different starters but to no avail.


They get that sour because they are managing the shj*t out the final
ferment. You can too. Build a simple proof box with a plastic
container + heat pad. Run the final proof at 85 to 88 F.

"Will" > wrote in message ...
> On May 22, 2:06 am, "Mike" > wrote:

> > At the same time some artesian bakery in my locality produce beautiful
> > sourdough breads with various degrees of sourness - from mild to a very
> > strong , San Francisco type. Any ideas about what is happening to my bread?
> > I have tryed a few different starters but to no avail.

> They get that sour because they are managing the shj*t out the final
> ferment. You can too. Build a simple proof box with a plastic
> container + heat pad. Run the final proof at 85 to 88 F.

Actually, room temperature will do quite nicely. Or cooler if your are
willing to wait.

A warming incubator is nice if you are in a hurry.

The main thing is that the dough should rise long enough to sour, if sour
is what one wants. Poor dough will crap out before that happens. Fails to
hold gas. Calling dough, which fails the rise, "overproofed" is not operationally
helpful. Making good dough is a thing that good sourdough bakeries
know how to do. I do it with bromated bread flour. So what? I never
claimed to be a good person.

Since when is sh*t spelled with a j?

--
Dicky

On May 25, 2:09*pm, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

> A warming incubator is nice if you are in a hurry.

No hurry. Just nice to have the final proof on the warm side.

> Since when is sh*t spelled with a j?

Since May 25, 2:09 pm Google time <g>