Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Denise Craig
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

Hi,
I am fairly new to sourdough bread making and especially interested in
Rye bread - the german style stuff. I have found the following recipe:

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/reci..._13754,00.html

and decided to work and practise on this recipe until I'm happy with
the results.
I started making the chef (which is described at the very end of the
recipe) and it seemed a little on the active side, but Samartha
encouraged me to continue and just wait and see. So I did.

I made the starter from the chef and then started to put toghether the
dough. I have to admit that I used Whole Wheat flour instead of the 20
percent bran wheat flour the recipe called for (couldn't find it at
local grocerie store).
After a few other experiments with rye sourdough bread I couldn't help
but notice that the dough turned out great, the proofing went great,
the baking went well. The finished bread had a nice crust as well as a
nice crumb. When I applied pressure to the top of the bread it would
give in about an inch or so and come right back up when I let go. It
was neither too firm nor too soft. Just a really nice bread.
Now I expected to take a bite and be totally amazed with the taste as
well. It tasted great. It was moist, chewy, flavorful - just not sour.
At all.
What could be the reason for that? Too little starter? I only used
about 1/3 of the chef to make the starter (as instructed by the
recipe).
I would appreciate any input!
And one more question: The bread I'm aiming for is a little smoother /
less grainy. Can I substitute fine rye (if I can find it anywhere) for
the medium rye and bread flour for the wheat? In Germany we call the
bread I am trying to make "Grey Bread". The bread that I made was
actually too dark.
Maybe someone has a recipe that comes closer to what I'm looking for?

Denise

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Janet Bostwick
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help


"Denise Craig" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I made the starter from the chef and then started to put toghether the
> dough. I have to admit that I used Whole Wheat flour instead of the 20
> percent bran wheat flour the recipe called for (couldn't find it at
> local grocerie store).
> Denise
>

Hi Denise,
You can't find the flour because Daniel Leader(author of your recipe) says
the following in his book "Bread Alone" p. 47.

"Unfortunately, you won't find this excellent flour labeled as such, as each
mill gives it a proprietary name. I have deciphered the different brands
below. The bad news is that you will probably have to mail order it, as few
natural foods stores carry it. The good news is, you can make it yourself.

To make your own 20 percent bran wheat flour with germ, combine 3 parts
unbleached white flour (preferably with germ) with 1 part stone-ground whole
wheat flour, preferably medium or fine grind. This is easiest to do in
large batches--3 pounds white flour to 1 pound whole wheat--and mixed with
your hands in a transparent glass or clear plastic container so you can see
that your blending is thorough. Store the homemade 20 percent bran flour in
a covered container as you would any whole-grain flour.

FLOUR BRANDS:
Guisto's Old Mill Reduced Bran Flour
Walnut Acres Unbleached Bread Flour"

Leader lost my interest right here. I'm not into recipes where I have to
devote part of my life hunting down ingredients, particularly flour. As a
matter of fact, Guisto's is not a retail or mail order outfit--if your
health food store wholesaler doesn't carry an item in their catalog, you
ain't gonna get it.

His entire book is like that. He names a flour and then says what grind you
must get. Everything is spring water, honey--preferably wildflower, fine
sea salt--give, me, a, break. . .Samartha would love his pumpernickel
recipe--brewed espresso, unsweetened cocoa, unsulphured molasses are all
used in the recipe.

Sorry about the rant, but this author and book set me off.

Janet



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Denise Craig
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

Hi Janet,
thank you for clearing this up for me.

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...

> To make your own 20 percent bran wheat flour with germ, combine 3

parts
> unbleached white flour (preferably with germ) with 1 part

stone-ground whole
> wheat flour, preferably medium or fine grind. This is easiest to do

in
> large batches--3 pounds white flour to 1 pound whole wheat--and

mixed with
> your hands in a transparent glass or clear plastic container so you

can see
> that your blending is thorough. Store the homemade 20 percent bran

flour in
> a covered container as you would any whole-grain flour.
>[...]


Now that would also answer my question about substituting part of the
whole wheat with bread flour.

Do you have any clue if it is possible that the bread is not sour
because it contains too much Whole Wheat Flour?

I totally agree with you about simplicity of ingredients. The most
fascinating part about baking my own bread is what an amazing variety
of breads can be made from just three ingredients: flour, water and
salt.

Denise

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Bob
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:35:20 -0600, "Denise Craig"
> wrote:

>just not sour. At all.


>What could be the reason for that? Too little starter? I only used
>about 1/3 of the chef to make the starter (as instructed by the
>recipe).


I have a recipe for making starter from flour that calls for a much
more aggressive feeding schedule. The schedule came from a book
published by the national Baking Center. As with other feeding
provedures you discard half the starter and add back an equal amount
of flour and water at each feeding. I use King Arthur bread flour and
distilled water.

The feeding schedule is 22, 7, 7, 6, 6, 6 hour intervals. When the
starter has ended its last feeding cycle, I store 1/2 cup of it in the
refrigerator for a week, feed it again by halving and adding back, let
it sit at 80F (on top of the water heater), and then put it back in
the refrigerator. Eventually that half of the starter which I would
otherwise discard is placed in a 3 quart plastic container for making
the sponge.

I have tried two techniques for making the sponge, and both come out
the same. One is to feed the sponge in stages by tripling the amount
of flour and water every 3 hours, then let it sit for 8 more hours.
The other is to add the flour and water all at once and let it sit for
8 hours. Either way the sponge will be active enough when fed the
flour to make the dough. You want to have 50% sponge, 50% dough flour.

Since I like a liquid sponge, I use all the water for the dough in the
sponge and add only flour at the dough stage. I adjust the flour to
get a hydration of about 70%, which is when the dough will not stick
to a drinking glass that is pressed into the dough.

Now you want to "age" this dough by causing it to rise very slowly.
Keep it at 70F - do not proof at 80F or it will not have enough time
to make lactic acid. I like at least 4-6 hours but the longer the
better. Some people proof for 8 hours with punchdowns at 4 hours and 8
hours, and then get it to rise again to the final loaf. I do not want
to take the risk that I have wasted all that rising power on the
punchdown proofs, so I just let it rise slowly to final loaf form.

I have read that if you let the sponge age in the refrigerator for 3
or more days, it will develop more of a sour taste. I have a liquid
sponge in there now that I made over the weekend. I will make the
sourdough from it Thursday for the Thanksgiving meal.

When I made commercial yeast poolishes, I found that they would get
more of a sour taste if I aged the sponge in the refrigerator for at
least 3 days. It seems to work for natural starter-based sponge as
well.

HTH,

SOB

(Sweet Ol' Bob)



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Janet Bostwick
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help


"Denise Craig" > wrote in message
...
snip
> Do you have any clue if it is possible that the bread is not sour
> because it contains too much Whole Wheat Flour?
>
> Denise

I am no sourdough expert, Denise. I am only able to manipulate its rising
powers to suit my needs. After that I get into the try it and see area. If
you followed everything as the author stipulated, I would only speculate
that the less refined flour(whole wheat) might take longer for the sourdough
organisms to digest and make sour. Proportionally you have changed the
ingredients quite a bit if I understand you correctly--you've substituted
all whole wheat for the 20 percent bran wheat flour that he lists? Making
up the flour according to his directions will give you a much lighter
colored bread with a much higher percentage of white flour. Essentially you
made a whole wheat and rye bread. The original recipe is really a half
white flour, half whole wheat and rye mix.

Hopefully Samartha or Dick or someone will be able to really help you.

Janet




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Bob
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:00:18 -0600, "Denise Craig"
> wrote:

>Do you have any clue if it is possible that the bread is not sour
>because it contains too much Whole Wheat Flour?


You are rushing your starter, sponge and dough too fast.

Let the starter undergo several weekly feedings before you make a
sponge, and then when you do, age the sponge for several days.
Finally, force the dough to rise as slowly as practical. The longer it
rises, the more sour it will get.

The Food TV site has some good recipes, especially MoltedMario's
Italian cuisine. But that sourdough recipe appears a bit amateurish.

A prep time of only 10 hours is a dead giveaway that something is not
quite right. It takes more like 10 days to make good sourdough from
scratch.


  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:42:58 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>Hopefully Samartha or Dick or someone will be able to really help you.


You mean CrockPot Adams? He'll have her baking that rye in a crock pot
for 3 days. At least it will be sour by then.

  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:35:20 -0600, "Denise Craig"
> wrote:

>Hi,
>I am fairly new to sourdough bread making and especially interested in
>Rye bread - the german style stuff. I have found the following recipe:
>
>http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/reci..._13754,00.html
>
>and decided to work and practise on this recipe until I'm happy with
>the results.
>I started making the chef (which is described at the very end of the
>recipe) and it seemed a little on the active side, but Samartha
>encouraged me to continue and just wait and see. So I did.
>
>I made the starter from the chef and then started to put toghether the
>dough. I have to admit that I used Whole Wheat flour instead of the 20
>percent bran wheat flour the recipe called for (couldn't find it at
>local grocerie store).
>After a few other experiments with rye sourdough bread I couldn't help
>but notice that the dough turned out great, the proofing went great,
>the baking went well. The finished bread had a nice crust as well as a
>nice crumb. When I applied pressure to the top of the bread it would
>give in about an inch or so and come right back up when I let go. It
>was neither too firm nor too soft. Just a really nice bread.
>Now I expected to take a bite and be totally amazed with the taste as
>well. It tasted great. It was moist, chewy, flavorful - just not sour.
>At all.
>What could be the reason for that? Too little starter? I only used
>about 1/3 of the chef to make the starter (as instructed by the
>recipe).
>I would appreciate any input!
>And one more question: The bread I'm aiming for is a little smoother /
>less grainy. Can I substitute fine rye (if I can find it anywhere) for
>the medium rye and bread flour for the wheat? In Germany we call the
>bread I am trying to make "Grey Bread". The bread that I made was
>actually too dark.
>Maybe someone has a recipe that comes closer to what I'm looking for?
>
>Denise


Hi Denise,

The sour taste comes from the lactobacilli rather than from the yeasts
that co-exist in the sourdough culture.

The point of most rapid fermentation of the LB is approximately 93°F.

The point of most rapid fermentation of the yeast is approximately
86°F.

Other things being equal, you will get more sour bread if you can hold
the temperature at (or very close to) 93°F.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Samartha Deva
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

Hi Denise,

< ... >

> After a few other experiments with rye sourdough bread I couldn't help
> but notice that the dough turned out great, the proofing went great,
> the baking went well. The finished bread had a nice crust as well as a
> nice crumb. When I applied pressure to the top of the bread it would
> give in about an inch or so and come right back up when I let go. It
> was neither too firm nor too soft. Just a really nice bread.


So, you scored pretty well on this try.

> Now I expected to take a bite and be totally amazed with the taste as
> well. It tasted great. It was moist, chewy, flavorful - just not sour.
> At all.


Maybe this is a temporary peculiarity of your starter. You said it would
go right off.

My guess is that your starter needs a few more rounds of workout. If you
are using full grain rye to feed your starter, there is no way that it
won't get sour after a while. And - as Kenneth pointed out, LB's which
are mainly responsible for the acid like it a little warmer. However, if
you want to stick with your recipe (thanks Janet for clearing up the
origin of Denise's recipe with the espresso pumpernickel) until it comes
right, how are you going to make adjustments? I'll leave that to your
creativity. I'd forget about the recipe for the moment and focus on
starter growing. With fg rye, you can't do much wrong. This just goes on
forever and gets more tasteful and sour.

When I did your first response post earlier and goofed on reading the
starter recipe part, I outlined how I would run the three stages, if the
DM-3 is too much effort. That was and still is a valid suggestion. I
made bread like this for a long time. Never a problem to get enough
sourness. Quite the opposite. Sourness which makes your mouth shrink!
The difference is just in extending the last stage. With the DM-3, there
is noticeable increase in sourness between the first baking run and the
last one, maybe 4 hours later. Sourness also increases noticeably when
fermenting the loafs longer (7 instead of 4). I experiment with
shortening the loaf fermentation time because it always takes longer
than planned and then it's too much mouth contraction for my taste (the
folks buying my breads love it, though).

> What could be the reason for that? Too little starter? I only used
> about 1/3 of the chef to make the starter (as instructed by the
> recipe).


With rye, the amount of starter is determined by the ratio of starter
rye to full dough rye, in essence what your bread flour mix ratios are.
More total bread rye needs more starter rye. Have a look at the DM-3
calculator and check out the total rye to starter rye, that's always
56.50 %. There is more to it than what I write here, but this should
give you some orientation.

> I would appreciate any input!
> And one more question: The bread I'm aiming for is a little smoother /
> less grainy. Can I substitute fine rye (if I can find it anywhere) for
> the medium rye and bread flour for the wheat? In Germany we call the
> bread I am trying to make "Grey Bread". The bread that I made was
> actually too dark.


> Maybe someone has a recipe that comes closer to what I'm looking for?


The problem with all this in US is that you don't have the flour types
so readily available and need to get by with what's available and go
from there. So, if you ask if you "can do this" - sure, you will
probably need to experiment with what is available to you and see if you
can approach more what you like.

What I do is use the DM-3 calculator and grow the starter from full
grain rye. The additional rye which goes into the recipe is light rye.
The wheat part going in is split by 3, 2/3 is bread flour and 1/3 is
full grain wheat flour. (I got the wheat split from Mike Avery, he had a
great rye mix bread loaf done with the 2/3 - 1/3 split.)

If I want lighter (more gray), I'd use less rye, maybe 40/60 rye/wheat
mix.

One thing I want to remark is that the "full grain" flours one can buy
either off the shelf or bulk are often much coarser than the one I mill
myself.

So, happy fermenting into more sourness!


Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ray Jenkins
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

My experience suggests that "sour"dough is something of a misnomer. Mine is
rarely sour, and in fact even has a delicate sweetness.

Sourdough bread, in reality, a natural yeast. In a sense making sourdough is
like making wine -- there are good ones and bad ones.

All that said, my experience indicates that if you make a loaf, place it in
the refrigerator for a day or two (not the freezer), then let it rise, it
will be somewhat sour.


"Denise Craig" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
> I am fairly new to sourdough bread making and especially interested in
> Rye bread - the german style stuff. I have found the following recipe:
>
> http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/reci..._13754,00.html
>
> and decided to work and practise on this recipe until I'm happy with
> the results.
> I started making the chef (which is described at the very end of the
> recipe) and it seemed a little on the active side, but Samartha
> encouraged me to continue and just wait and see. So I did.
>
> I made the starter from the chef and then started to put toghether the
> dough. I have to admit that I used Whole Wheat flour instead of the 20
> percent bran wheat flour the recipe called for (couldn't find it at
> local grocerie store).
> After a few other experiments with rye sourdough bread I couldn't help
> but notice that the dough turned out great, the proofing went great,
> the baking went well. The finished bread had a nice crust as well as a
> nice crumb. When I applied pressure to the top of the bread it would
> give in about an inch or so and come right back up when I let go. It
> was neither too firm nor too soft. Just a really nice bread.
> Now I expected to take a bite and be totally amazed with the taste as
> well. It tasted great. It was moist, chewy, flavorful - just not sour.
> At all.
> What could be the reason for that? Too little starter? I only used
> about 1/3 of the chef to make the starter (as instructed by the
> recipe).
> I would appreciate any input!
> And one more question: The bread I'm aiming for is a little smoother /
> less grainy. Can I substitute fine rye (if I can find it anywhere) for
> the medium rye and bread flour for the wheat? In Germany we call the
> bread I am trying to make "Grey Bread". The bread that I made was
> actually too dark.
> Maybe someone has a recipe that comes closer to what I'm looking for?
>
> Denise
>





  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Samartha Deva
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

Ph and Acid contents of sourdough starters and resulting breads are well
documented in the literature which contradicts what you say here.

Sourdough a misnomer? Men, from which lofty cloud are you descending?

Sourdough bread - "in reality, a natural yeast"?

Dream on and play with your dough in the fridge. You have no clue what
you are talking about!

Samartha


Ray Jenkins wrote:
>
> My experience suggests that "sour"dough is something of a misnomer. Mine is
> rarely sour, and in fact even has a delicate sweetness.
>
> Sourdough bread, in reality, a natural yeast. In a sense making sourdough is
> like making wine -- there are good ones and bad ones.
>
> All that said, my experience indicates that if you make a loaf, place it in
> the refrigerator for a day or two (not the freezer), then let it rise, it
> will be somewhat sour.


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
HeatherInSwampscott
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

Denise Craig wrote:
>It was moist, chewy, flavorful - just not sour.


Hi Denise,

I am new to sourdough breads as well, so take my advice with that in mind.

I am finding that to get the sour taste I like, I must make a sponge
with my starter and about half the flour of the recipe and all the
liquid. I then let that sponge sit out on my counter from 12 to 24 hours
(low room temp, 65 - 68 degrees F)

Then I add the rest of the flour, all salt and other ingredients, and
then knead or complete the recipe as called for.

Without the 12 to 24 hour ferment, my bread is not sour. With the 12 to
24 hour ferment, my bread is sour.

Play around, this hobby is fun!

Best,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

"HeatherInSwampscott" >=20
in message ...
said to Denise Craig:

> I am finding that to get the sour taste I like, I must make a sponge=20
> with my starter and about half the flour of the recipe and all the=20
> liquid. I then let that sponge sit out on my counter from 12 to 24 =

hours=20
> (low room temp, 65 - 68 degrees F)


Heather's way (and mine), it seems like a two stage process. The=20
three-stage process for traditional German rye breads is firmly embedded
in baking technology. One may assume there is a rational basis for
all of that apparently absurd complexity.

I have looked over the Daniel Leader recipe, mentioned by Denise,
where old Dan stumbles around in what seems to be 3-stage. It is=20
a hopeless jumble of minute instruction and folksy advice, with the
critical parameters (to the extent they are included) buried in muddy
exposition. Overall rational is entirely excluded (as is frequently the =

case in cook-books and recipes).

Is the 3-stage process a rational procedure or a conglomeration
of Old Wives Tales? I am not prepared to say. I continue to have
a mild suspicion that there may be something to it, after all.

As well as recommending to forget the Leader recipe, I think that
we should advise Denise to look over Christiane's posts, particularly

That is not to say that Christiane illuminates the rationale, but her=20
presentation is greatly more straightforward than Leader's, and modest,
which is endearing. The right mind can profit considerably from the
stuff at http://samartha.net particularly as there are some paths into
the German sourdough literature. Even the Samartha posts at r.f.s.
can be understood by some, I am told.

One day I may try to write a "recipe" where I pull in the 3-stage=20
rationale, but it is a distant possibility, and I am pretty sure that I=20
would be hacked to pieces if I tried it.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com



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Janet Bostwick
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help


"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
snip
I have looked over the Daniel Leader recipe, mentioned by Denise,
where old Dan stumbles around in what seems to be 3-stage. It is
a hopeless jumble of minute instruction and folksy advice, with the
critical parameters (to the extent they are included) buried in muddy
exposition. Overall rational is entirely excluded (as is frequently the
case in cook-books and recipes).
snip--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

I am a bread book junkie(besides it makes gift giving easy for friends and
relatives). I have read and worked from most all of the bread books. Dick,
in the above paragraph you have concisely summarized the entire book. In my
opinion, this book is the most useless of the bunch.
Janet




  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Pearce
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help


"Janet Bostwick" wrote in message ...
>
> "Dick Adams" wrote


> I have looked over the Daniel Leader recipe, mentioned by Denise,
> where old Dan stumbles around...
> snip--
> Dick Adams
> <firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com
>
> I am a bread book junkie(besides it makes gift giving easy for friends and
> relatives). I have read and worked from most all of the bread books.

Dick,
> in the above paragraph you have concisely summarized the entire book. In

my
> opinion, this book is the most useless of the bunch.
> Janet


Bread Alone was the book I started with. In fact, the basic formula I use is
one that has evolved from one in his book. Now, however, I rarely go back to
it for any reason. Some of the stories are nice, but I've found that I don't
really get much out of it anymore.

Also, Leader got me to try to make a starter from scratch. In his book, I
believe, he says to use a tiny bit of yeast to get a starter going, but then
he talks about how much yeast must be flying around his bakery because he
can just mix flour and water to get a starter, or rather a chef. He likes
French terms. I thought, what the hell, let me try just flour and water.
Believe it or not, it worked.

What I'd like to see, and Janet you may know of such a book, is a sourdough
book that expressed all the formulas as baker's percentages and gives
concise instructions to go along with it. I don't really mind nice prose in
the book, but keep it out of the recipes. One nice thing about Reinhart's
BBA is that it does give baker's percentages for all the bread, even if he
does use commercial yeast in most every recipe. At this point I get most of
my ideas for new things off the internet.

-Mike






  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:01:55 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>I am a bread book junkie(besides it makes gift giving easy for friends and
>relatives). I have read and worked from most all of the bread books. Dick,
>in the above paragraph you have concisely summarized the entire book. In my
>opinion, this book is the most useless of the bunch.


What's wrong with Ed Wood's book, "Classic Sourdoughs"? It even has a
recipe for bread machine sourdough. And he uses cup measure.

NB: I am not promoting his book - I don't even have a copy, since I
long ago turned in the one I got from the library.

Of all the writers I have read - mostly just the classics - his
appears to be the most reasonable. If I had to buy only one bread
book, I would buy his. The others are filled with too much trivia and
arcane details that only a cult fetishist would enjoy.


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Dick Adams
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help


"Kenneth" > wrote in message =
news
[ ... ] (Who needs all the requoted data?)

> The point of most rapid fermentation of the LB is approximately =

93=B0F.

> The point of most rapid fermentation of the yeast is approximately
> 86=B0F.


From whence those data?

Is it from G=E4nzle et al. ?

My recollection is that those studies had to do with proliferation =
kinetics,
not fermentation velocity. So it could be said that, in many =
generations,
the yeasts drop out at temperatures exceeding some value in the 90's.

> Other things being equal, you will get more sour bread if you can hold

the temperature at (or very close to) 93=B0F.

Well there was a poster some years ago who said that the way to make
very sour bread was to maintain your storage culture at high =
temperature.

Maybe that is what Kenneth is talking about.

Bread rises fine at 90=B0F. and 95=B0F. as well. Given a long enough =
time
in the incubator, it gets sour finally. In my experience, that is less =
time
than is required at room temperature and at 85=B0F.

Maintaining the culture at 95=B0, in my experience, leads to a sickly, =
stinking
mess that may possibly good for making sour bricks.

Some people are still saying that the way to get your bread sour is to =
let
it rise in the refrigerator.

Who can we believe?

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:28:43 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>Some people are still saying that the way to get your bread sour is to =
>let it rise in the refrigerator.


Let the sponge rest in the refrigerator for several days (3 minimum)
after it reaches its peak of fermentation.

>Who can we believe?


Anyone you want.

But I am here to tell you that if I let liquid sponge (so named
because I use all the water for the dough recipe in the sponge, which
makes it somewhat liquid) rest in the refrigerator for at least 3
days, my final product is noticably more sour than if I used the
sponge a few hours after it activated.

I believe the reason for the sponge going to the refrigerator shortly
after fermentation has peaked is to prevent the yeast from exhausting
themselves. I suspect that if you let the sponge rest at room temp for
several days without feeding it, it would not produce as much rise in
the final dough. Just my guess at what could be going on.


  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Samartha Deva
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> "Kenneth" > wrote in message news >
> [ ... ] (Who needs all the requoted data?)
>
> > The point of most rapid fermentation of the LB is approximately 93°F.

>
> > The point of most rapid fermentation of the yeast is approximately
> > 86°F.

>
> From whence those data?
>
> Is it from Gänzle et al. ?
>
> My recollection is that those studies had to do with proliferation kinetics,
> not fermentation velocity. So it could be said that, in many generations,
> the yeasts drop out at temperatures exceeding some value in the 90's.
>
> > Other things being equal, you will get more sour bread if you can hold

> the temperature at (or very close to) 93°F.
>
> Well there was a poster some years ago who said that the way to make
> very sour bread was to maintain your storage culture at high temperature.
>
> Maybe that is what Kenneth is talking about.
>
> Bread rises fine at 90°F. and 95°F. as well. Given a long enough time
> in the incubator, it gets sour finally. In my experience, that is less time
> than is required at room temperature and at 85°F.
>
> Maintaining the culture at 95°, in my experience, leads to a sickly, stinking
> mess that may possibly good for making sour bricks.
>
> Some people are still saying that the way to get your bread sour is to let
> it rise in the refrigerator.
>
> Who can we believe?
>
> --
> Dick Adams


> Some people are still saying that the way to get your bread sour is to let
> it rise in the refrigerator.


Sure it works great. The analogy which comes to mind is driving your car
with the emergency brake 50 % engaged. The wheels are still turning, car
moves - hey, pulling the emergency brake improves getting around! Anyone
claiming differently has marbles missing. Car moves, that's the proof!

> Who can we believe?


Everyone who talks the way you want to think. That's really easy.

S.

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/
  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help



Samartha Deva wrote:

>
> Sure it works great. The analogy which comes to mind is driving your car
> with the emergency brake 50 % engaged. The wheels are still turning, car
> moves - hey, pulling the emergency brake improves getting around! Anyone
> claiming differently has marbles missing. Car moves, that's the proof!


Well, if your point is that putting the dough in the refrigerator
will slow down the fermentation, you are certainly correct.
However, that may not be a bad thing even if it is not a sure way
to get "sour" in the bread. I can think of several things that
are better when prolonged a bit. Faster is not always better.

You would not think it a reasonable complaint that you were
running your oven at 50% when you bake your Pumpernickle for a
long time in a very slow oven, however strange that might seem to
a sourdough pizza maker who runs his oven full blast.

My assertion, backed by personal observation, is that you can
often improve the flavor of white bread by extending the time
that the flour is wet. This is true whether or not you have
introduced the sourdough culture. I prefer cool room temperature
for this effect, but there is some gain realised by retarding the
dough. I don't equate flavor with "sour". In fact I don't
understand at all the obsessive quest for "sour" that seems to be
a quest for some.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:35:43 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>My assertion, backed by personal observation, is that you can
>often improve the flavor of white bread by extending the time
>that the flour is wet.


Could you give an indication of how long one should extend the time
before diminishing returns set in. Are we talking hours, days, weeks?

>This is true whether or not you have
>introduced the sourdough culture. I prefer cool room temperature
>for this effect, but there is some gain realised by retarding the
>dough.


The problem with sourdough is that the rising of the dough depends
critically on the organisms introduced by the starter. Once they are
spent, the dough won't rise anymore. So if one leaves the dough a long
time, it will rise and then if you punch it down to shape the loaf, it
might not rise much if any.

>I don't equate flavor with "sour". In fact I don't
>understand at all the obsessive quest for "sour" that seems to be
>a quest for some.


It's mostly cult behavior. But it's cheap so people wile away the time
doing it.

I find it challenging and I find the taste to be flavorful. But I also
find commercial yeast bread to be challenging and flavorful, albeit in
a different way.

Perhaps you have never had a really good sourdough. If you happen to
come across some, put Blue Plate mayonnaise (from New Orleans) on two
slices and put sliced dill pickles on one slice. Then put a filet of
deep fried lemon-herb marinated catfish in between. You will never
experience the taste sensation of a sourdough catfish Po' Boy. It's
unforgettable.


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help



Dick Adams wrote:
>


> Some people are still saying that the way to get your bread sour is to let
> it rise in the refrigerator.
>
> Who can we believe?


Let's see, we have scientific evidence that warmer temperatures
favor Lactobacilli over yeasts so warmer must produce more "sour"
taste.

We also have scientific evidence that warmer temperatures favor
homo fermentation over hetero fermentation so the cooler
temperatures must produce more "sour" 'cause the acetic acid is
"stronger" don'tcha know. Charts and graphs are available for
both assertions.
As much as I admire science, to date, scientific explanations
have about the same beliveability as the fanciful lies in books
about sourdough.

Who can you believe? I say trust what you observe to work in
your own kitchen and try to avoid dreaming up reasons to fit the
observations.

Of course, if you really need advice, I am fairly reliable. I
don't lie much. I have faithfuly tried to reinterpret my
grandmothers wisdom regarding Bread Faeries and other Wee Folk-
she baked great bread. Additionaly, I have tried to accurately
translate my cats expert opinions, but she seldom comments on
bread, sourdough culture being her field. And, when I do
speculate, I always do it with regret and fair warning so I am
certainly a better source than most books.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:57:39 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **


Not in Texas.

In Texas a balanced diet is a 16 oz can of Lone Star beer in one hand
and plate of Texas BBQ brisket in the other. It is best implemented
watching the Houston Texans beat the crap out of the Dallas Cowboys.

Now that's balanced living.

  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help



Bob wrote:
>
> Some comments


Something happens when a dough is made from wheat flour and
water, even without adding commercial yeast or sourdough culture,
to improve the flavor of the eventual bread. I have tried this
with good results with 12 to 24 hour lead time before adding the
yeast or culture. I am speculating that there is some kind of
enzymme driven reaction(s) going on. Anyone can try this at home
and see if it works in their kitchen. It is easier with
commercial yeast, but works with sourdough also. You just add
additional flour after the addition of sourdough culture.

Yeast experiment. Make a small batch of simple dough (flour and
water) and let sit at cool room temperature or refrigerate if
cool room temperature is not available. After 12 to 24 hours
make another small batch of dough this time with yeast and salt.
Knead into the first batch the yeast and then the salt. Procede
normally and see which batch makes the better tasting bread. I
observe a difference in texture as well as taste.


I have tasted the bread that won the SF sourdough bread contest
two years running and some of the old established SF SD bread
brands. The winner was not as sour as some of the other brands,
but had great nutty wheat taste. I don't believe that you can
put "truth" to a vote, but I can conclude that others , with
enough qualifications to judge a bread contest, must agree that
the most sour is not of necessity the best bread. One of the
famous SF brands lists acetic acid as an ingredient, as a
preservative it stated on the wrapper. It tasted like bread with
vinegar in it to me.

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:33:28 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>Something happens when a dough is made from wheat flour and
>water, even without adding commercial yeast or sourdough culture,
>to improve the flavor of the eventual bread.


Yes, it becomes an active culture. You are making starter without
realizing it.

>I am speculating that there is some kind of
>enzymme driven reaction(s) going on.


What's going on is the beginning activation of a flour-based starter.

>I have tasted the bread that won the SF sourdough bread contest
>two years running and some of the old established SF SD bread
>brands. The winner was not as sour as some of the other brands,
>but had great nutty wheat taste. I don't believe that you can
>put "truth" to a vote, but I can conclude that others , with
>enough qualifications to judge a bread contest, must agree that
>the most sour is not of necessity the best bread.


The best sour taste IMO is the delicate sour aftertaste. It does not
take especially sour bread to achieve that aftertaste.

>One of the
>famous SF brands lists acetic acid as an ingredient, as a
>preservative it stated on the wrapper. It tasted like bread with
>vinegar in it to me.


They cheated.




  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ellen Wickberg
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

in article , Bob at
wrote on 26/11/03 9:10 am:

> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:35:43 GMT, Charles Perry >
> wrote:
>
>> My assertion, backed by personal observation, is that you can
>> often improve the flavor of white bread by extending the time
>> that the flour is wet.

>
> Could you give an indication of how long one should extend the time
> before diminishing returns set in. Are we talking hours, days, weeks?
>
>> This is true whether or not you have
>> introduced the sourdough culture. I prefer cool room temperature
>> for this effect, but there is some gain realised by retarding the
>> dough.

>
> The problem with sourdough is that the rising of the dough depends
> critically on the organisms introduced by the starter. Once they are
> spent, the dough won't rise anymore. So if one leaves the dough a long
> time, it will rise and then if you punch it down to shape the loaf, it
> might not rise much if any.
>
>> I don't equate flavor with "sour". In fact I don't
>> understand at all the obsessive quest for "sour" that seems to be
>> a quest for some.

>
> It's mostly cult behavior. But it's cheap so people wile away the time
> doing it.
>
> I find it challenging and I find the taste to be flavorful. But I also
> find commercial yeast bread to be challenging and flavorful, albeit in
> a different way.
>
> Perhaps you have never had a really good sourdough. If you happen to
> come across some, put Blue Plate mayonnaise (from New Orleans) on two
> slices and put sliced dill pickles on one slice. Then put a filet of
> deep fried lemon-herb marinated catfish in between. You will never
> experience the taste sensation of a sourdough catfish Po' Boy. It's
> unforgettable.
>
>

Some people rise the formed loaf. I do. I don't "punch down" dough when
that dough is sourdough leavened. Ellen

  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Feuer
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help



Charles Perry wrote:

> Let's see, we have scientific evidence that warmer temperatures
> favor Lactobacilli over yeasts so warmer must produce more "sour"
> taste.


But also that cool temperatures favor Lb over yeast. There's a
limited range in which yeast dominates. Above _or below_ LB
dominates.

David
  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Avery
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On 26 Nov 2003 at 18:33, Charles Perry wrote:

> Something happens when a dough is made from wheat flour and
> water, even without adding commercial yeast or sourdough culture, to
> improve the flavor of the eventual bread. I have tried this with good
> results with 12 to 24 hour lead time before adding the yeast or
> culture.


This is pretty well documented. It's called a pre-ferment or autolyse.
For brewers here, it's not the same thing as when your yeast goes into
autolysis.

The autolyse term was coined by Calvel, if memory serves. He, and
others, found that letting the flour get wet starts a reaction. The
reaction is based on enzymes in the flour.

The result is a richer tasting bread, and one that mixes up/kneads
more quickly. Some commercial bakeries use an autolyse just to
speed their processes. The prep crew makes a largish quantity of
autolyse which is then used the next day to make bread from.

Many of the advantages of an autolyse are inherent in a sourdough
process. I've found I get more mileage out of an autolyse if I am using
commercial baker's yeast rather than using sourdough.

Sourness is, in the end, one facet of the taste of sourdough. One that
is overemphasized. I think this is because much of the "sourdough"
bread on the market is not at all sourdough. It's bread with lactic,
acetic, and/or fumaric acids added. It's easy to create a sour taste with
a few chemicals that natural organisms will have trouble competing
with. Sadly, the artificial sour taste is the standard to which many
people hold sourdough bread.

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
At school zones
Heed instructions!
Protect
our little
Tax deductions
Burma-Shave



  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help



Mike Avery wrote:
>
> This is pretty well documented. It's called a pre-ferment or autolyse.
>

Drat. Another million dollar idea that is already well know to
everybody but me. Well if it isn't novel, it was independent.
All of the books I own refer to autolyse as a rest before adding
salt or beginning the kneading. A span of time from 15 to 60
min.

>
> The result is a richer tasting bread, and one that mixes up/kneads
> more quickly.


Yup, thats the thing. Plus I find a better texture.


> sourness is, in the end, one facet of the taste of sourdough. One that
> is overemphasized.


Well, Mike, you are right, but I think we are out numbered.

> I think this is because much of the "sourdough"
> bread on the market is not at all sourdough. It's bread with lactic,
> acetic, and/or fumaric acids added. It's easy to create a sour taste with
> a few chemicals that natural organisms will have trouble competing
> with.


It ought to be against the law.

Happy Thanksgiving to Mike and All.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help


"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.2.1069908219.204.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
On 26 Nov 2003 at 18:33, Charles Perry wrote:

> > Something happens when a dough is made from wheat flour and
> > water, even without adding commercial yeast or sourdough culture, to
> > improve the flavor of the eventual bread. I have tried this with =

good
> > results with 12 to 24 hour lead time before adding the yeast or
> > culture.=20


> This is pretty well documented. It's called a pre-ferment or =

autolyse. =20
> For brewers here, it's not the same thing as when your yeast goes into =


> autolysis.


It is pretty hopeless to try to settle this with a dictionary. Bakers'
terminology is not very standard. I have used the term preferment
to include the sponge, and culture build stages prior to it. I believe
that is the more conventional usage, and that belief is strengthened
by Googling with <preferment> and <dough>.

> The autolyse term was coined by Calvel, if memory serves. He, and=20
> others, found that letting the flour get wet starts a reaction. The=20
> reaction is based on enzymes in the flour.


Autolysis is a respectable word, found in dictionaries, meaning auto-
digestion. That Calvel was/is not a scientist seems to be indicated by
his importing of a smudged version of that word into bakerspeak, being=20
quite indefinite as to whether it is a separate thing, or a misspelling =
of=20
autolysis.

Autolyse does seem conventionally, among bakers, to mean dough=20
without yeast, assuming it is a noun, or an adjective if it is intended =
to
be a modifier as in 'autolyse step'.

It is a fuzzy word, and like most bakerspeak terms, it should be=20
replaced by an operational definition. Autolysis, on the other hand,
is a definite word, but one that probably applies to more than one=20
stage in dough preparation.

My guess is that the most important autolysis in sourdough fermentation
occurs when yeast starve and die, and self-digest in their own, or =
ambient,
enzymes, becoming, in that process, food for lactobacteria. But that is
just my guess, and as far as I know, it has never been suggested by any
legitimate baking technologists or food technology academicians..

Another little known thing is that long dough fermentation is the way to =

get good, even eventually sour, bread. During that, the flour and water =

"get to know each other" incidentally quite as well, I suspect, as if =
they=20
were impressed into a prior yeastless union. That realization is =
consistent
with the above paragraph.

Compared to that, manipulations of storage cultures and preferments are
relatively quite ineffectual, as are yeastless prenuptials. But that is =
just my
opinion, and that opinion is cogent only to white sourdoughs.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com




  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
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Dick Adams wrote:




> Another little known thing is that long dough fermentation is the way to
> get good, even eventually sour, bread. During that, the flour and water
> "get to know each other" incidentally quite as well, I suspect, as if they
> were impressed into a prior yeastless union.
>


Well, one of the main points, for me at least, was getting the
benefits of a long fermentation without getting all the "sour"
that goes with that. Still it would be much more interesting if
someone would actually try what I suggested and report the
results. That way I would have some confirmation that the Bread
Faeries were not just fooling with the bread. I never believe
what is written in bread books any more without trying a
procedure in my own kitchen. No matter how famous the author.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help


"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
> Well, one of the main points, for me at least, was getting the
> benefits of a long fermentation without getting all the "sour"
> that goes with that. Still it would be much more interesting if
> someone would actually try what I suggested and report the
> results. That way I would have some confirmation that the Bread
> Faeries were not just fooling with the bread. I never believe
> what is written in bread books any more without trying a
> procedure in my own kitchen. No matter how famous the author.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles


Charles, I have no scientific data to relate, only the following. I haven't
baked bread for over 18 months. One of our very favored (loved) bread
recipes at our house is the Reinhart Pane Siciliano. He calls for a firm
preferment and I have just changed that to a firm Carl's starter. Reinhart
states that the firm preferment can be used the same day that it is made.
His bread recipe further calls for the made-up-dough to be refrigerated
overnight--although he says you can bake the same day.

I was in a hurry and needed to feed my starter and I also needed bread, so I
made my firm starter and made and baked the bread the same day. I really
didn't think much about it, just baked it, sliced it and ate it. And I
wondered exactly what it was that had made me so crazy about the flavor of
this bread two winters ago. The stuff I was eating was blah, regular
plain-old store bought kind of bread. No aroma and no lingering tastes. My
husband said I didn't have to bother making that bread anymore. A couple of
days later, I still had this big blob of made-up firm starter on hand so I
thought I would just go ahead and make it up into bread and give it away.
Since I wasn't in a hurry I refrigerated the made-up loaves overnight.

The loaves smelled different while in the oven. The crust color was
different. And the crust was shiny. I gave three loaves away and we tried
one. The flavor was outstandingly different. There is a subtle,
back-of-the-tongue sweetness and nuttiness. I was really puzzled as to why
these loaves tasted different than the first one. And then I remembered
that I had made the entire starter and bread in one day for the first batch.
The only difference is that the firm starter was in the refrigerator for 3
days and the made-up loaves were in the refrigerator overnight. The firm
starter would also count as part of the flavor contributor as the starter is
one-third of the flour total. So I'm convinced that flavor does develop
with the slow method.

Janet


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ed Bechtel
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

Janet,

I know you explained a while back how you make a 2 lb stiff preferment and
stick it in the frig for the week's baking, BUT, can you please fill in just a
couple more details?

1. Appoximately what percentage is your preferment to the rest of the dough
make-up? Order of magnitude is good enough 20% or 50%.

2. Then if I remember correctly you go through a single rise with your made up
dough, form the loaf(s) then retard overnight. Is that right?

3. Do you make your next preferment with the left over preferment or with jar
of Carls sitting in the back of frig?

I really want to give this method a try. Thanks,
Ed Bechtel

Ed
  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
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"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> Janet,

snip
> 1. Appoximately what percentage is your preferment to the rest of the

dough
> make-up? Order of magnitude is good enough 20% or 50%.


For this particular recipe, it is 16 ounces firm preferment, 8 ounces
semolina flour, 8 ounces bread flour.

> 2. Then if I remember correctly you go through a single rise with your

made up
> dough, form the loaf(s) then retard overnight. Is that right?


correct.

> 3. Do you make your next preferment with the left over preferment or with

jar
> of Carls sitting in the back of frig?


I make an approximate 36 ounce firm preferment initially. Use 16 ounces
twice and use the leftover 4 ounces to start another 36 ounce preferment.
(squish the preferment in water, then add/knead in the flour to make more)

The interesting part about this method is that I can use this firm
preferment beyond the 3-day storage recommended for an active dry yeast pate
fermente or biga. The sourdough organisms continue to have rising power
much longer. Because of the holidays I made a double batch of firm
preferment last Sunday morning. The remainder continues to rise in the bowl
and even today it is pushing against the plastic wrap over the bowl. I
have never pushed it beyond this point, but I would think there is a danger
of impacting the gluten strength for overall loaf support. I do use a
fairly high protein flour (13.5%) and that probably has a lot to do with how
long the preferment is usable.

Janet


  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ed Bechtel
 
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Janet wrote:

<< For this particular recipe, it is 16 ounces firm preferment, 8 ounces
semolina flour, 8 ounces bread flour. >>

Thanks for info Janet. Unless you tell me otherwise I'm going to make a
preferment with a small inoculation and when it is double in size then stick it
in the frig for a day or two.

Thanks,
Ed


  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
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"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for info Janet. Unless you tell me otherwise I'm going to make a
> preferment with a small inoculation and when it is double in size then

stick it
> in the frig for a day or two.
>
> Thanks,
> Ed


I just start with a small inoculation too. If you have an active starter, I
don't think it is necessary to allow the preferment to double before
refrigerating. I just let it really begin to grow and then refrigerate.
That's how I've always fed my starter and I just look at this preferment as
a kind of heavy feeding. When I take the preferment out to use, I just cut
off the number of ounces that I need. I've already measured the rest of my
flour at that point, so I toss the sticky preferment into the flour and coat
it. That way I can take the preferment out and cut it into 8-12 pieces
without sticking. The preferment then rests on my counter while I measure
up everything else and get bowls oiled and so forth. That is all the
warming that it gets before it is used. Start your mixer, add all your
liquids to the flour mixture and then toss in the preferment bits. I
usually hold back the salt until I have everything mixed roughly and then
sprinkle the salt as I begin to knead.

Janet


  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
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Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
>
>... The flavor was outstandingly different. There is a subtle,
> back-of-the-tongue sweetness and nuttiness.


Yes. I believe that wheat or nutty taste is , or should be the
goal for white wheat bread. The sour in white sourdough should
not over ride the natural nutty wheat taste.

.... So I'm convinced that flavor does develop
> with the slow method.
>

I think so also.
Nice to hear from an actual practioner of the art of baking.
Research at the library may be fine for the study of history, but
sourdough bakers need to study in the kitchen. For a lot of
reasons, not the least of which is the dreadful state of the
literature on sourdough available in English.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
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Bob
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:59:19 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>the dreadful state of the
>literature on sourdough available in English.


I found Ed Wood's book "Classic Sourdoughs" enlightening.

Can you point out any serious faults.


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Charles Perry
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help



Bob wrote:
>


> I found Ed Wood's book "Classic Sourdoughs" enlightening.
>

I enjoyed the sourdough adventures that Dr. Wood wrote about in
"World Sourdourghs from Antiquity" They are considerably
condensed in "classic sourdoughs" If your library has a copy, it
is worth a read for the stories. The National Geographic article
on the Egyptian expedition is also a good read to hear the story
from another writer. The recipes and methods in "classic
Sourdoughs" have been rewritten from the earlier book and much
improved in my opinion.

I am indebted to Dr. wood for his suggestion to combine Kamut
with rye. I makes great tasting bread. So I am not going to nit
pick his writings here. However that does not change my opinion
about the general state of the literature on sourdough baking.
If you were "into" baking cookies, you could pick up just about
any cookie book and find enough information to be successful.
Not true for sourdough bread. There are plenty of good books
about woodworking, camping, canning, and on and on.

When it comes to Sourdough bread, you have to read a lot of books
to glean a nugget of good information here and there. Generally
speaking the books are riddled with misinformation and old wives
tales. You would think that something that humans had been doing
for thousands of years would be better understood.

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
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Bob
 
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Default Sourdough Rye Bread is NOT sour - help

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 04:05:17 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>So I am not going to nit pick his writings here.


I would not want you to nit pick. I am concerned about substantive
matters that affect the amateur sourdough baker.

I read a library copy but I have been thinking about adding his book
to my library. I certainly do not want to do that if it is no better
than the rest of the crap on the market.

>However that does not change my opinion
>about the general state of the literature on sourdough baking.


I wish you would provide something substantive so I can understand
what it is that I have been misinformed about with regard to his book.
I can find nothing in his book that rubbed me the wrong way. IOW,
everything he wrote appeared to be solid advice.

He was the only one I know about who recommended freshly milled
organic whole grain flour for use in a starter you wanted to activate
from the flour alone. No one else ever bothered to bring out that
crucial point explicitly. After 4 failed experiments, I was about to
give up but when I used what he recommended, I had great success. For
that alone he earned my respect.

If the bone to pick with him is some arcane aspect that only a
professional baker would care about, then I am not concerned. But that
was not what your general comment was about. Your general comment was
about the abysmal content in the literature to the extent that the
layman can't learn proper sourdough techniques. From my non-expert
position, I see it otherwise with Wood's book.

Where am I being deceived?

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