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| Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal! |
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No need for farm animals.
Jonathan Ball wrote: > Rat & Swan wrote: <snip> > That collateral deaths are >> "wasteful" is certainly also a bad thing, but from the farmers' >> perspective, they are not wasteful; they are means of increasing yields >> and profit. > That's what they are in business to do: make a profit. Yes, jonnie, that's what I said. As long as the farmers see no compelling reason to change, the deaths are not wasteful in their opinion. <snip> Rat |
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No need for farm animals.
Jonathan Ball wrote: <snip> > I'd be very curious to see how...Tom...would address > the issue that not all strictly vegetarian diets cause the same amount > of animal harm. Probably the same way I address it: by suggesting we choose among the vegetarian methods. <snip> >> The issue is whether a vegan diet >> is more just. > How can it be, if some meat-including diet kills fewer animals? Do the > SOL animals that are wantonly killed by your "vegan" diet have rights, > or don't they? Let's apply this to one of your own arguments. You stated that even if government aid prevented the deaths of more poor and homeless humans than not providing government aid, the MORE ETHICAL thing to do would be to let those people die. You support the basic principle behind my argument against meat-production: that on an issue of major ethical significance, utilitarian considerations cannot be the ultimate criteria. Obviously, (I certainly hope, although I cannot be sure in your case) you think it would be preferable to provide aid through (as you see it) ethical means than NOT to provide aid and allow people to die. I feel the same on the issue of veganism: it would be better to reduce or eliminate collateral deaths through ethical means than to allow or encourage collateral deaths. But, in the end, justice must be the first priority. <snip> Rat |
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No need for farm animals.
usual suspect wrote:
(snip) > The information about Professor Davis' study would disabuse you of > your error if you'd read it. Why should anyone consider an unpublished, non-peer reviewed "study" without any data beyond a "50% reduction of vole populations in alfafa fields" and "millions and millions" of field animals killed? Is "millions and millions" scientific quantification? |
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No need for farm animals.
Saerah wrote:
> (snip) > actually, i eat animal products. i have no ethical problem with that, > inherently (factory farming, i do have a problem with). to be honest , > the issue of collateral deaths worries me *more*; that many animals > are killed, in a wasteful matter, The dead bodies of field animals are not wasted. If they aren't consumed by scavengers, they decompose and fertilize the soil. Are you so anthrocentric that you believe everything not utilized by humans is wasted? |
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Schism is what the self absorbed infantile Karen Winter is causing
Rat & Swan wrote:
[shite] Whether you admit it or not, your moral and theological relativism is causing schism in your church. |
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No need for farm animals.
Rat & Swan wrote:
> > > Jonathan Ball wrote: > >> Rat & Swan wrote: > > > <snip> > > That collateral deaths are > >>> "wasteful" is certainly also a bad thing, but from the farmers' >>> perspective, they are not wasteful; they are means of increasing yields >>> and profit. > > >> That's what they are in business to do: make a profit. > > > Yes, jonnie, that's what I said. As long as the farmers see > no compelling reason to change, the deaths are not wasteful > in their opinion. They don't pose any moral dilemma to the farmers. They pose a moral dilemma for you, and you are impaled on the horns. You're bleeding to death. |
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No need for farm animals.
Rat & Swan wrote:
> > And we see how jonnie immediately turns the discussion into a personal > attack, since he can't address the real issues. No, we see nothing of the kind. What we see, rather, is your unethical snipping to avoid admitting that you mischaracterized the debate. |
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Schism
Jonathan Ball wrote: > Whether you admit it or not, your moral and theological relativism is > causing schism in your church. One cannot have a schism of one side -- if the conservatives weren't promoting schism on their part, there would be no problem. The inflexible on both sides make the situation worse. It's the conservatives who are suggesting leaving, not the liberals in the ECUSA. Rat |
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Schism
Rat & Swan wrote:
> > > Jonathan Ball wrote: > >> Whether you admit it or not, your moral and theological relativism is >> causing schism in your church. > > > One cannot have a schism of one side Your "side" is causing a schism. It is because you are self-indulgent moral relativists who will pitch your holy works into the fire in order to indulge yourselves in earthly pleasures. |
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No need for farm animals.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 01:21:47 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:
>Rat & Swan wrote: >> >> And we see how jonnie immediately turns the discussion into a personal >> attack, since he can't address the real issues. > >No, we see nothing of the kind. What we see, rather, >is your unethical snipping " Pot, kettle... Snipping without notation is dishonest even when the victim is Jethro Harrison. YOU have no ethical grounds for accusing someone else of dishonesty, you ****ing lying troll." Kevin Brandon 17 Jan 2004 Kevin would've told you this himself if he was sincere about his claim, but it's obvious he'd rather let you alone and not take you to task over it for some cowardly reason. That's Kevin for you: a coward. |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:12:00 GMT, usual brain dead suspect who is
actually Jon (no)Balls wrote: >Jahnu wrote: >> Ok, so is that an issue compared to the fact that the meat industry >> causes several billions of animals to be mass murdered in death >> factories each year? > >Yes. You only care about *some* animals -- the ones you don't actually >eat. You could care less about the ones that die in the production of >what you do eat. You are a hypocrite. I care for all animals. That's one of the reasons I have chosen a diet which causes the least harm to animals. I can't stop eating, and I can't stop factory farming. What I can do is to choose the diet that causes the least violence towards nature and her inhabitants. Meat-eaters, on the other hand, don't give a shit as long as they get to drink their blood. >You're the one refusing to admit and address the shortcomings of your >own false philosophy. Your moral/ethical claims are hollow sanctimony. >Your diet is no more ethical than any other, including one which >involves eating the meat of animals. If nothing else, those who eat meat >are less wasteful than you are. Does your brand of Hinduism encourage >wastefulness? It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:44:47 GMT, Jonathan NOBalls fell out of his
wheelchair and dribbled: >Jahnu wrote: >> Ok, so is that an issue compared to the fact that the meat industry >> causes several billions of animals to be mass murdered in death >> factories each year? > >Yes, it is, cocksucker. You are LYING and saying you >follow a "least harm" diet, and you have no ****ING >idea, because you have never bothered to analyze and >count the animals killed in the course of producing the >vegetables you eat. It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Tell me that right now, scumbag, you evil pig, you. As you can see from the facts below you are totally wrong: HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:51:31 GMT, Jonathan NoBalls dribbled:
>No, faggot. I'm posing the questions and demanding >answers, and you're producing. Got it? > >Why do you eat a diet that causes animals to die, you >skinny saffron-robed cocksucker? It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Tell me that right now, scumbag, you evil pig, you, or I'll snap your arms right off your body and stuff them down your throat. HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:52:39 GMT, Jonathan Ball
> wrote: >Bad whiff-off, faggot. You kill animals, and you're >too gutless to face the facts. It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Besides tell me this: Why do meat eaters stink like rotten carcasses out of their mouths? Why have you chosen a diet that causes you to eat mints, and chew gum and use chemical mouth-wash to mask the vile, putrid stench that emanate from every orifice in your body? HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:54:34 GMT, Jonathan No Balls dribbled:
>But you are, FaggotFreddie. You're afraid of me on >multiple levels. Most of all, you're afraid to address >the issue that shows you're a lying, ignorant >hypocrite. You claim to be following a "least harm" >diet, and you aren't. I'm the one pointing it out, and >that's why you're afraid of me. > >****ing limp-wristed queer: you are trembling. Yeah, right. You are so dangerous, turkey-neck. The only danger from you is the stench that emanate from your mouth. It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Besides tell me this: Why do meat eaters stink like rotten carcasses out of their mouths? Why have you chosen a diet that causes you to eat mints, and chew gum and use chemical mouth-wash to mask the vile, putrid stench that emanate from every orifice in your body? Think about it. If you are wondering why you can't get laid there's the answer. HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:33:51 GMT, the usual brain dead suspect who is
really Jon Ball dribbled: >Jahnu wrote: >> We are discussing >> the fact that a meat based diet is ruining mother nature and her >> inhabitants at a rate that other food productions don't even come >> close to. >I'm vegetarian. hahaha. Can you prove it, scumbag? If you are a vegetarian I am the pope. No vegetarian is so vile and intellectually retarded as you are. It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Besides tell me this: Why do meat eaters stink like rotten carcasses out of their mouths? Why have you chosen a diet that causes you to eat mints, and chew gum and use chemical mouth-wash to mask the vile, putrid stench that emanate from every orifice in your body? HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:56:10 GMT, Jonathan No Balls dribbled:
>Jahnu wrote: >> That's not the issue we are discussing > >That's EXACTLY the issue we're discussing, faggot. Do you have a hearing problem, scumbag? Didn't you just hear me telling you that this is not the issue we are discussing? <snip> It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Besides tell me this: Why do meat eaters stink like rotten carcasses out of their mouths? Why have you chosen a diet that causes you to eat mints, and chew gum and use chemical mouth-wash to mask the vile, putrid stench that emanate from every orifice in your body? HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:57:16 GMT, Jonathan sleazeBall took his hands
off his little sister long enough to dribble: >Jahnu wrote: >>A vegetarian diet is more moral >You whiffed off, faggot. That wasn't a proof of >anything except your craven cowardice. > >You gutless pansy queer. It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Besides tell me this: Why do meat eaters stink like rotten carcasses out of their mouths? Why have you chosen a diet that causes you to eat mints, and chew gum and use chemical mouth-wash to mask the vile, putrid stench that emanate from every orifice in your body? HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 01:21:47 GMT, Jonathan sleaze Ball wrote:
>Rat & Swan wrote: >> >> And we see how jonnie immediately turns the discussion into a personal >> attack, since he can't address the real issues. > >No, we see nothing of the kind. What we see, rather, >is your unethical snipping to avoid admitting that you >mischaracterized the debate. The only things we snip, scumbag, is your imbecile obfuscations. They are not worth repeating. It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Besides tell me this: Why do meat eaters stink like rotten carcasses out of their mouths? Why have you chosen a diet that causes you to eat mints, and chew gum and use chemical mouth-wash to mask the vile, putrid stench that emanate from every orifice in your body? HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:02:42 GMT, Jonathan seaze Ball wrote:
>Non sequitur, faggot. That has nothing to do with your >claim. Do you have a hearing problem, mince head? Is your brain getting all spongy from the disease infested carcasses you eat? Didn't you hear what I just said? I said this: It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Besides tell me this: Why do meat eaters stink like rotten carcasses out of their mouths? Why have you chosen a diet that causes you to eat mints, and chew gum and use chemical mouth-wash to mask the vile, putrid stench that emanate from every orifice in your body? HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:38:17 GMT, Jonathan Ball wrote:
>Jahnu wrote: >> Since you can't survive unless you kill other living creatures either >> in the form of plants or animals it is only sane and thoughtful to >> choose a diet that causes the least harm to other living entities and >> to the environment. > >You don't. You don't make any effort to choose such a >diet, beyond the FALSE belief that a diet that excludes >meat is necessarily such a diet. You are wrong: it >isn't. I can easily construct a meat-including diet >that kills fewer animals, including the meat animals, >than the diet you follow. > >How much rice do you eat? Why do you eat any? It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Besides tell me this: Why do meat eaters stink like rotten carcasses out of their mouths? Why have you chosen a diet that causes you to eat mints, and chew gum and use chemical mouth-wash to mask the vile, putrid stench that emanate from every orifice in your body? HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:01:33 GMT, Jonathan Ball
> wrote: >I'm posing the questions, you're answering them, or >looking like the saffron-robed queer ****drip you are >anyway for failing to answer them. Why do you cause >animals to die for your diet, faggot? Do you have a hearing problem, mince head? Is your brain getting all spongy from the disease infested carcasses you eat? Didn't you hear what I just said? I said this: It doesn't matter how much you meat heads whine and whimper and try to divert the attention from your evil ways by lame, brain dead comparisons, ad hominems, and down right lies, the facts remain that the meat industry is one of the great bastions of evil on this planet. Check the facts below, mince head, and then answer this question: Why have you chosen a diet that causes countless of billions of animals to be mass murdered every year in death factories, and which wreck havoc on the environment? Besides tell me this: Why do meat eaters stink like rotten carcasses out of their mouths? Why have you chosen a diet that causes you to eat mints, and chew gum and use chemical mouth-wash to mask the vile, putrid stench that emanate from every orifice in your body? If you wonder wy you can't get laid there's the answer. HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989 The Hunger Argument Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million. Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20 Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99 How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an ac 20.OOO Pounds of beef produced on an ac 165 Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16 The Environmental Argument Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. housecat. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year The Cancer Argument Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion. Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer. Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25 Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500 Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8 Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33 The Cholesterol Argument Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc. Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc. Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc. The Antibiotic Argument Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support The Pesticide Argument Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23 Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55 Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004 The Ethical Argument Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:slaughterhouse worker Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive The Survival Argument Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C. Famous pop stars - vegetarians: ------------------------------- Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting 'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3 www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org www.krishna.dk |
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No need for farm animals.
Some saffron-robed fudge-packer whose name isn't really
"Jahnu" wrote: > On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:52:39 GMT, Jonathan Ball > > wrote: > > >>Bad whiff-off, faggot. You kill animals, and you're >>too gutless to face the facts. > > > It doesn't matter It does matter, faggot. You claim to be following a "least-harm" diet, and you aren't. You are a liar and a hypocrite. |
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No need for farm animals.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:39:41 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:
>Jahnu wrote: >> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:56:10 GMT, Jonathan No Balls dribbled: >>>Jahnu wrote: >> >>>>That's not the issue we are discussing >>> >>>That's EXACTLY the issue we're discussing, faggot. >> >> Do you have a hearing problem? Didn't you just hear me >> telling you that this is not the issue we are discussing? > >It is the issue, faggot. We frame the issue; you >respond to it, or look like a schmuck for whiffing off. > Rubbish. Jahnu, going about his own business is suddenly told he's killing animals, so the onus is on you to prove it, meatBall. >The issue is, why are you lying about following a >"least-harm" diet, when you cause the wanton slaughter >of millions of animals? Prove that, meatBall. |
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No need for farm animals.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:42:38 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:
>Jahnu wrote: >> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:01:33 GMT, Jonathan Ball >> > wrote: >> >>>I'm posing the questions, you're answering them, or >>>looking like the saffron-robed queer ****drip you are >>>anyway for failing to answer them. Why do you cause >>>animals to die for your diet, faggot? >> >> >> Do you have a hearing problem > >No. You seem to have one, ****drip. Why do you cause >animals to die for your diet, faggot? Support your claim with evidence, meatBall. Prove that Jahnu is causing animals to die, else your claim will be legitimately ignored. |
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No need for farm animals.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:40:52 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:
>Jahnu wrote: >> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 01:21:47 GMT, Jonathan Ball wrote: >>>Rat & Swan wrote: >>> >>>>And we see how jonnie immediately turns the discussion into a personal >>>>attack, since he can't address the real issues. >>> >>>No, we see nothing of the kind. What we see, rather, >>>is your unethical snipping to avoid admitting that you >>>mischaracterized the debate. >> >> The only things we snip > >...are the difficult issues you can't handle, mainly >the one about why you continue to kill animals by the >millions, despite lying and saying you don't kill any. You need to support your claim with evidence before claiming those who don't listen to your unsupported assertions is lying, meatBall. You won't because you can't. |
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No need for farm animals.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:42:00 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:
>Jahnu wrote: >> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:38:17 GMT, Jonathan Ball wrote: >>>Jahnu wrote: >> >>>>Since you can't survive unless you kill other living creatures either >>>>in the form of plants or animals it is only sane and thoughtful to >>>>choose a diet that causes the least harm to other living entities and >>>>to the environment. >>> >>>You don't. You don't make any effort to choose such a >>>diet, beyond the FALSE belief that a diet that excludes >>>meat is necessarily such a diet. You are wrong: it >>>isn't. I can easily construct a meat-including diet >>>that kills fewer animals, including the meat animals, >>>than the diet you follow. >>> >>>How much rice do you eat? Why do you eat any? >> >> It doesn't matter > >It does matter, you little ghee-smeared queer. The >production of rice is exceptionally lethal to animals. Ipse dixit. Prove some of these outrageous claims or they will be legitimately ignored. |
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No need for farm animals.
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:37:52 GMT, Jonathan Ball > wrote:
>"Jahnu" wrote: >> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:52:39 GMT, Jonathan Ball >> > wrote: >> >>>Bad whiff-off, faggot. You kill animals, and you're >>>too gutless to face the facts. >> >> It doesn't matter > >It does matter, faggot. You claim to be following a >"least-harm" diet, and you aren't. You need to prove that, meatBall. It is your claim, after all. >You are a liar and a hypocrite. That seems to be you, meatBall, because you haven't supported a single claim yet. You won't because you can't. |
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No need for farm animals.
degene-Rat wrote:
>>> Who says it is? > >> You, Tom Regan, Peta, et al. > > That is false. No, it's true. The general vegan activist message isn't to avoid or minimize CDs, just meat and leather and products made with either. >>> Certainly no ethical vegan. > >> Oxymoron. > > *sigh* Checkmate. >>> This is a strawman >>> which Antis create and which, from there, takes their "argument" >>> blundering off into endless night.... > > <snip> That's pretty low. Why can't you refute what I said? Not strawman, it's a matter of ignorance or deceit for those like you who make unfounded claims about dietary morality. In your case, it's deceit because you know better >>>> Davis's research focuses on the work of Tom Regan, a philosophy >>>> professor from North Carolina State University and founder of the >>>> contemporary animal rights movement. Regan argues that the least >>>> harm would be done to animals if people were to adopt a vegan diet - >>>> that is, a diet based only on plants, with no meat, eggs, or milk >>>> products. > >>> But, again, this is not the central basis of Regan's argument. > >> Does Regan argue that a vegan diet causes less harm or not? That's the >> issue. > > Regan argues, mainly, that a vegan lifestyle is more just. He is not a > utilitarian. Answer my question, Karen. Is Regan responsible for the notion of the "Least Harm Principle" (LHP)? Does he argue that a vegan diet causes less harm (under LHP) or not? >>> It >>> applies only within a category already created on deontological >>> grounds for other reasons. This attempts to make Regan a utilitarian, >>> which he is not, and which he clearly states he is not. > >> Irrelevant. The issue is whether or not a vegan diet causes fewer >> animal deaths and less suffering. > > Not primarily for Regan, or for me. Yes, it is. Your moral posturing indicates as much. > The issue is whether a vegan diet > is more just. According to what standard -- a. that animals still die in the course of producing it? b. that you don't eat the flesh of the animals killed in the production of it? c. that you engage in a counting game and rely upon moral relativity? d. that a vegan diet allows you to assume a high moral posture without requiring you to do a body count? Animals die to make meat for diets. Animals die in the course of crop farming. The two types of diet (vegan and meat-including) are *indistinguishable* if deaths and suffering are the criteria for what's moral, ethical, or just. > I am not a utilitarian either, although I certainly > support causing less death and suffering, insofar as the means of doing > so are in accord with justice. Then why does your diet still include CDs? > <snip> Why did you not reply to that? I think the shortcomings of Regan's thesis deserve greater discussion, especially by those who defend him and his thesis. His thesis, indeed veganism as a whole, fails because it's based on Ivory Tower utopianism rather than in-the-fields reality. >> Why not? Those deaths and maimings are not wholly inadvertent. Many of >> them are intentional: pesticides and traps are deliberate. > > And I agree, such intentional deaths are _also_ wrong and should be > eliminated, as far as possible. "As far as possible" is a very pragmatic qualifier coming from a utopian. Elimination of death and suffering, too, sounds good, but how practical is it in the real world? Answer: not very. Your food will always have death and suffering attributed to it. Those are inescapable measures that veganism doesn't address, just brush over and snip. >>> Regan's argument is based on >>> intentional acts which violate the rights of subject-of-a-life beings. > >> Weak sophistry. Even organic farmers intentionally violate those same >> "rights" by applying pesticides, among other practices. So, too, do >> granaries and warehouses when they follow the law and engage in >> pro-active pest management. > > Yes, I agree those methods should _also_ be eliminated as far as > possible. Agree with whom? I don't want rats or weevils living in my food. Kill them! > But one does not follow justice by incorporating two > evils rather than one into one's life. You're still engaging in passivist sophistry. I don't think pest control is an evil: it saves human lives by reducing the risk posed by vermin. But I do understand your misanthropic objections to pest management. >>> Those acts must be ended to follow Regan's ethics. > >> You cannot see the forest for the trees. The vegan-AR agenda is >> predicated on delusions, chief among them is the belief that >> abstention from meat causes no/reduced animal casualties. > > I certainly do not believe that -- I know some unjust and unnecessary > deaths are inherent in all production of products: unjust toward > humans, unjust toward animals, unjust toward our obligations as stewards > of God's creation. But that does not make meat-production just. It doesn't make it unjust, either. Dropping God's name only invites a recitation of passages dealing with how animals are to be treated, not to mention how they can be eaten. The great irony in your religious views is: what God allows, you condemn; what God condemns, you promote. >> All that really means, though, is that one doesn't actually eat the >> animals killed in the course of their own food production. Animals >> still suffer and die, both intentionally and unintentionally, for >> their grains, veggies, fruits, and beans. That leads you to the >> counting game, which only shows the complete moral failure of veganism >> as a solution to a problem it's supposed to address. > > I don't engage in the counting game -- which seems to be your chief > complaint against me ( and Regan) here. I say injustice is injustice -- > I am not a utilitarian. Yet you continue committing and supporting what you perceive to be injustice. My chief complaint is that you're a sanctimonious hypocrite. > <snip> > >> The fact remains that the "solution" promoted by you, Regan, and the >> folks at Peta consists of grains, legumes, veggies, and fruits. Those >> foods are grown without regard for animals, > > Not by vegans You admit CDs occur; you purchase foods. You call it injustice, yet you support the cycle. You're no more ethical than anyone else. You're a hypocrite. >> and animals still die for vegan diets despite everything said by >> activists. I think you're morally obligated to tell the truth: animals >> still die in a vegan diet, and in many cases more animals die than if >> one eats grazed ruminants and home-grown vegetables. > > I've no problem with home-grown vegetables. I don't know any vegan > activist who suggest people buy agribusiness-produced veggies RATHER > than home-grown. This is another strawman. No, it isn't a strawman. Where do you draw the line at "agribusiness"? The local co-op gets their organic vegetables from the same suppliers as most of the grocery chains (exception noted below). Much of that produce comes from the same farms, and some of the organic produce is from large distributors like Earthbound Farms. Do you consider the mass-market fare from Earthbound agribusiness? Or only stuff from Dole and other companies? One of the larger grocery chains here (HEB) skips middle-men and has deals with Texas farmers. While the co-op is selling produce from California and even overseas, the chain is selling organic and conventional produce from local farmers. Why do vegans then continue to shop at the co-op, much less buy from large outfits like Earthbound Farms? http://heb.com/yourHEBStore/SD-produce.jsp |
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Schism is not desirable
degeneRat wrote:
>> Face it: your choice of Episcopalianism is COMPLETELY dictated by >> your politics and your faggotry. > > Or, possibly, (at least in part) by the fact that I was raised in the > ECUSA and confirmed as an Episcopalian as a virginal 13-year-old -- or, > as my Dad put it "mashed on the head by the bishop."  I admit it:> I'm a traditionalist in a lot of things...I love my church, for many > reasons. I bet you'd be in the MCC or some other denomination if your church had stood on God's word -- as other Anglican bodies are in dealing with your abominable policies -- rather than defining itself by the deviancy it now upholds. |
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No need for farm animals.
tnatrwlr wrote:
>>The information about Professor Davis' study would disabuse you of >>your error if you'd read it. > > Why should anyone consider an unpublished, non-peer reviewed "study" > without any data beyond a "50% reduction of vole populations in alfafa > fields" and "millions and millions" of field animals killed? Why should anyone accept the doctrinaire vegan tenet that veganism is a more ethical diet? Professor Davis has carried out a body count. Have you? > Is "millions and millions" scientific quantification? It's entirely reasonable given the impact of farming on animals worldwide. |
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Schism
degene-Rat wrote:
>> Whether you admit it or not, your moral and theological relativism is >> causing schism in your church. > > One cannot have a schism of one side -- if the conservatives weren't > promoting schism on their part, there would be no problem. Wait a second, the "conservatives" are not promoting schism. The schism came with changes supported by you and your fellow travelers. This is clear when one takes a look at the wider view in Anglicanism: you have offended the church in other nations, and they have broken fellowship with you. YOU have sown the seeds of division. You are not called by God to uproot order and change the doctrines of the church, but to live by and uphold them. > The > inflexible on both sides make the situation worse. It's the > conservatives who are suggesting leaving, not the liberals in the > ECUSA. You have already left. They will let you keep whatever names for yourselves, but they will keep the treasure of the Gospel. That's more important anyway. |
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No need for farm animals.
usual suspect wrote:
> degene-Rat wrote: > >>>> Who says it is? >> >> >>> You, Tom Regan, Peta, et al. >> >> >> That is false. > > > No, it's true. The general vegan activist message isn't to avoid or > minimize CDs, just meat and leather and products made with either. Yep: "don't consume animal parts". It's a classic instance of committing the Denying the Antecedent fallacy. > >>>> Certainly no ethical vegan. >> >> >>> Oxymoron. >> >> >> *sigh* > > > Checkmate. > >>>> This is a strawman >>>> which Antis create and which, from there, takes their "argument" >>>> blundering off into endless night.... >> >> >> <snip> > > > That's pretty low. Why can't you refute what I said? > > Not strawman, it's a matter of ignorance or deceit for those > like you who make unfounded claims about dietary morality. In > your case, it's deceit because you know better Among other things, because she COMPLETELY doesn't understand what the term "strawman" means. > >>>>> Davis's research focuses on the work of Tom Regan, a philosophy >>>>> professor from North Carolina State University and founder of the >>>>> contemporary animal rights movement. Regan argues that the least >>>>> harm would be done to animals if people were to adopt a vegan diet >>>>> - that is, a diet based only on plants, with no meat, eggs, or milk >>>>> products. >> >> >>>> But, again, this is not the central basis of Regan's argument. >> >> >>> Does Regan argue that a vegan diet causes less harm or not? That's >>> the issue. >> >> >> Regan argues, mainly, that a vegan lifestyle is more just. He is not a >> utilitarian. > > > Answer my question, Karen. Is Regan responsible for the notion of the > "Least Harm Principle" (LHP)? Does he argue that a vegan diet causes > less harm (under LHP) or not? > >>>> It >>>> applies only within a category already created on deontological >>>> grounds for other reasons. This attempts to make Regan a utilitarian, >>>> which he is not, and which he clearly states he is not. >> >> >>> Irrelevant. The issue is whether or not a vegan diet causes fewer >>> animal deaths and less suffering. >> >> >> Not primarily for Regan, or for me. > > > Yes, it is. Your moral posturing indicates as much. They can't escape the utilitarian implications of their silly deonotological beliefs, and in fact, Regan's "LHP" is an overt acknowledgment of the implications. So is the shabby critique of Steven Davis's position by this unknown goof Gaverick Matheny: he *explicitly* criticizes Davis on the basis of utilitarianism. In order to continue to ignore utilitarianism, "St." Tom and Karen would have to maintain that, faced with the choice of deliberately killing one deer to feed their "families" (term used loosely in Karen's case) versus shredding 10 deer fawns in the course of producing an nutritionally equivalent amount of grain, they would shred the fawns. >> The issue is whether a vegan diet >> is more just. > > > According to what standard -- > a. that animals still die in the course of producing it? > b. that you don't eat the flesh of the animals killed in the production > of it? > c. that you engage in a counting game and rely upon moral relativity? > d. that a vegan diet allows you to assume a high moral posture without > requiring you to do a body count? > > Animals die to make meat for diets. Animals die in the course of crop > farming. The two types of diet (vegan and meat-including) are > *indistinguishable* if deaths and suffering are the criteria for what's > moral, ethical, or just. > >> I am not a utilitarian either, although I certainly >> support causing less death and suffering, insofar as the means of doing >> so are in accord with justice. > > > Then why does your diet still include CDs? > >> <snip> > > > Why did you not reply to that? I think the shortcomings of Regan's > thesis deserve greater discussion, especially by those who defend him > and his thesis. His thesis, indeed veganism as a whole, fails because > it's based on Ivory Tower utopianism rather than in-the-fields reality. Usual, Karen simply isn't smart enough to defend "St." Tom's thesis. She thinks she's the smartest person ever to participate here, and she really isn't very smart at all. She mistakes glibness for articulation. She also views Regan as something akin to Moses: He has brought down the sacred "ar" texts from the mountain, and they need no defense. Long before you began to participate here, I posted the following rude, snide response I got from Regan himself when I asked him to comment on the obvious problem that cell culture, a medical investigative technique that he and others refer to as "non animal", in fact isn't non animal at all: http://tinyurl.com/yqbb7 "ar" and its goofy dietary expression of "veganism" are full of this kind of contradiction. > >>> Why not? Those deaths and maimings are not wholly inadvertent. Many >>> of them are intentional: pesticides and traps are deliberate. >> >> >> And I agree, such intentional deaths are _also_ wrong and should be >> eliminated, as far as possible. > > > "As far as possible" is a very pragmatic qualifier coming from a > utopian. Elimination of death and suffering, too, sounds good, but how > practical is it in the real world? Answer: not very. Your food will > always have death and suffering attributed to it. Those are inescapable > measures that veganism doesn't address, just brush over and snip. > >>>> Regan's argument is based on >>>> intentional acts which violate the rights of subject-of-a-life beings. >> >> >>> Weak sophistry. Even organic farmers intentionally violate those same >>> "rights" by applying pesticides, among other practices. So, too, do >>> granaries and warehouses when they follow the law and engage in >>> pro-active pest management. >> >> >> Yes, I agree those methods should _also_ be eliminated as far as >> possible. > > > Agree with whom? I don't want rats or weevils living in my food. Kill them! > >> But one does not follow justice by incorporating two >> evils rather than one into one's life. > > > You're still engaging in passivist sophistry. I don't think pest control > is an evil: it saves human lives by reducing the risk posed by vermin. > But I do understand your misanthropic objections to pest management. > >>>> Those acts must be ended to follow Regan's ethics. >> >> >>> You cannot see the forest for the trees. The vegan-AR agenda is >>> predicated on delusions, chief among them is the belief that >>> abstention from meat causes no/reduced animal casualties. >> >> >> I certainly do not believe that -- I know some unjust and unnecessary >> deaths are inherent in all production of products: unjust toward >> humans, unjust toward animals, unjust toward our obligations as stewards >> of God's creation. But that does not make meat-production just. > > > It doesn't make it unjust, either. Dropping God's name only invites a > recitation of passages dealing with how animals are to be treated, not > to mention how they can be eaten. The great irony in your religious > views is: what God allows, you condemn; what God condemns, you promote. > >>> All that really means, though, is that one doesn't actually eat the >>> animals killed in the course of their own food production. Animals >>> still suffer and die, both intentionally and unintentionally, for >>> their grains, veggies, fruits, and beans. That leads you to the >>> counting game, which only shows the complete moral failure of >>> veganism as a solution to a problem it's supposed to address. >> >> >> I don't engage in the counting game -- which seems to be your chief >> complaint against me ( and Regan) here. I say injustice is injustice -- >> I am not a utilitarian. > > > Yet you continue committing and supporting what you perceive to be > injustice. My chief complaint is that you're a sanctimonious hypocrite. > >> <snip> >> >>> The fact remains that the "solution" promoted by you, Regan, and the >>> folks at Peta consists of grains, legumes, veggies, and fruits. Those >>> foods are grown without regard for animals, >> >> >> Not by vegans > > > You admit CDs occur; you purchase foods. You call it injustice, yet you > support the cycle. You're no more ethical than anyone else. You're a > hypocrite. > >>> and animals still die for vegan diets despite everything said by >>> activists. I think you're morally obligated to tell the truth: >>> animals still die in a vegan diet, and in many cases more animals die >>> than if one eats grazed ruminants and home-grown vegetables. >> >> >> I've no problem with home-grown vegetables. I don't know any vegan >> activist who suggest people buy agribusiness-produced veggies RATHER >> than home-grown. This is another strawman. > > > No, it isn't a strawman. Where do you draw the line at "agribusiness"? > The local co-op gets their organic vegetables from the same suppliers as > most of the grocery chains (exception noted below). Much of that produce > comes from the same farms, and some of the organic produce is from large > distributors like Earthbound Farms. Do you consider the mass-market fare > from Earthbound agribusiness? Or only stuff from Dole and other companies? > > One of the larger grocery chains here (HEB) skips middle-men and has > deals with Texas farmers. While the co-op is selling produce from > California and even overseas, the chain is selling organic and > conventional produce from local farmers. Why do vegans then continue to > shop at the co-op, much less buy from large outfits like Earthbound Farms? > > http://heb.com/yourHEBStore/SD-produce.jsp > |
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No need for farm animals.
Jonathan Ball wrote:
> usual suspect wrote: > >> Why did you not reply to that? I think the shortcomings of Regan's >> thesis deserve greater discussion, especially by those who defend him >> and his thesis. His thesis, indeed veganism as a whole, fails because >> it's based on Ivory Tower utopianism rather than in-the-fields reality. > > > Usual, Karen simply isn't smart enough to defend "St." Tom's thesis. > She thinks she's the smartest person ever to participate here, and she > really isn't very smart at all. She mistakes glibness for articulation. > She also views Regan as something akin to Moses: He has brought down > the sacred "ar" texts from the mountain, and they need no defense. > > Long before you began to participate here, I posted the following rude, > snide response I got from Regan himself when I asked him to comment on > the obvious problem that cell culture, a medical investigative technique > that he and others refer to as "non animal", in fact isn't non animal at > all: http://tinyurl.com/yqbb7 > > "ar" and its goofy dietary expression of "veganism" are full of this > kind of contradiction. BTW, if you go to that post and then explore the thread, you'll see one of the earliest instances of shitbag Nash deliberately lying about what someone else has said, THEN lying about his lies. I should have given up on the lump-o-shit long before I did. |
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No need for farm animals.
Jonathan Ball wrote:
<...> >> That's pretty low. Why can't you refute what I said? >> >> Not strawman, it's a matter of ignorance or deceit for those >> like you who make unfounded claims about dietary morality. In >> your case, it's deceit because you know better > > Among other things, because she COMPLETELY doesn't understand what the > term "strawman" means. I've noticed that. She also doesn't understand "ipse dixit." <...> >>> Not primarily for Regan, or for me. >> >> Yes, it is. Your moral posturing indicates as much. > > They can't escape the utilitarian implications of their silly > deonotological beliefs, and in fact, Regan's "LHP" is an overt > acknowledgment of the implications. So is the shabby critique of Steven > Davis's position by this unknown goof Gaverick Matheny: he *explicitly* > criticizes Davis on the basis of utilitarianism. I think the most significant part of Matheny's response is: The type of ruminant production Davis proposes is a world apart from the omnivorism prevalent in the United States. I, for one, would be delighted if U.S. animal agriculture would shift toward Davis’s proposed system, as it would greatly improve the lives of farmed animals now intensively confined. In fact, even a shift from eating intensively-confined chicken to eating intensively-confined beef would be a vast improvement. http://courses.ats.rochester.edu/nob.../leastharm.htm That's the whole point behind Davis' research, but at least Matheny acknowledges that Davis' proposal has merit. Rather than fully embracing its validity, though, the serial activist Matheny beats the tired old drum and ends concluding that the case for vegetarianism is stronger. > In order to continue to ignore utilitarianism, "St." Tom and Karen would > have to maintain that, faced with the choice of deliberately killing one > deer to feed their "families" (term used loosely in Karen's case) versus > shredding 10 deer fawns in the course of producing an nutritionally > equivalent amount of grain, they would shred the fawns. They already choose that. <...> >>> <snip> >> >> Why did you not reply to that? I think the shortcomings of Regan's >> thesis deserve greater discussion, especially by those who defend him >> and his thesis. His thesis, indeed veganism as a whole, fails because >> it's based on Ivory Tower utopianism rather than in-the-fields reality. > > Usual, Karen simply isn't smart enough to defend "St." Tom's thesis. > She thinks she's the smartest person ever to participate here, and she > really isn't very smart at all. She mistakes glibness for articulation. I realized that back when we started our exchanges over Nazis and AR. > She also views Regan as something akin to Moses: He has brought down > the sacred "ar" texts from the mountain, and they need no defense. She views Linzey and others the same way. > Long before you began to participate here, I posted the following rude, > snide response I got from Regan himself when I asked him to comment on > the obvious problem that cell culture, a medical investigative technique > that he and others refer to as "non animal", in fact isn't non animal at > all: http://tinyurl.com/yqbb7 I hope you didn't buy his book after that, even discounted. Talk about a non-response. <snip> |
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No need for farm animals.
Jonathan Ball wrote:
> BTW, if you go to that post and then explore the thread, you'll see one > of the earliest instances of shitbag Nash deliberately lying about what > someone else has said, THEN lying about his lies. I should have given > up on the lump-o-shit long before I did. Sophist Bob's response was ridiculous as well: Looks to me like his answer was to read his recent books. The fact that you don't like the answer doesn't mean that an answer wasn't provided. bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! |
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No need for farm animals.
usual suspect wrote:
> Jonathan Ball wrote: > <...> > >>> That's pretty low. Why can't you refute what I said? >>> >>> Not strawman, it's a matter of ignorance or deceit for those >>> like you who make unfounded claims about dietary morality. In >>> your case, it's deceit because you know better >> >> >> Among other things, because she COMPLETELY doesn't understand what the >> term "strawman" means. > > > I've noticed that. She also doesn't understand "ipse dixit." She dabbled in history at college; not exactly a solid basis for mastering either the terminology or the methods of logic. > > <...> > >>>> Not primarily for Regan, or for me. >>> >>> >>> Yes, it is. Your moral posturing indicates as much. >> >> >> They can't escape the utilitarian implications of their silly >> deonotological beliefs, and in fact, Regan's "LHP" is an overt >> acknowledgment of the implications. So is the shabby critique of >> Steven Davis's position by this unknown goof Gaverick Matheny: he >> *explicitly* criticizes Davis on the basis of utilitarianism. > > > I think the most significant part of Matheny's response is: > > The type of ruminant production Davis proposes is a world apart > from the omnivorism prevalent in the United States. I, for one, > would be delighted if U.S. animal agriculture would shift toward > Davis’s proposed system, as it would greatly improve the lives > of farmed animals now intensively confined. In fact, even a > shift from eating intensively-confined chicken to eating > intensively-confined beef would be a vast improvement. > http://courses.ats.rochester.edu/nob.../leastharm.htm > > That's the whole point behind Davis' research, but at least Matheny > acknowledges that Davis' proposal has merit. Rather than fully embracing > its validity, though, the serial activist Matheny beats the tired old > drum and ends concluding that the case for vegetarianism is stronger. I especially liked - heh - his completely subjective analysis of relative harms. > >> In order to continue to ignore utilitarianism, "St." Tom and Karen >> would have to maintain that, faced with the choice of deliberately >> killing one deer to feed their "families" (term used loosely in >> Karen's case) versus shredding 10 deer fawns in the course of >> producing an nutritionally equivalent amount of grain, they would >> shred the fawns. > > > They already choose that. > > <...> > >>>> <snip> >>> >>> >>> Why did you not reply to that? I think the shortcomings of Regan's >>> thesis deserve greater discussion, especially by those who defend him >>> and his thesis. His thesis, indeed veganism as a whole, fails because >>> it's based on Ivory Tower utopianism rather than in-the-fields reality. >> >> >> Usual, Karen simply isn't smart enough to defend "St." Tom's thesis. >> She thinks she's the smartest person ever to participate here, and she >> really isn't very smart at all. She mistakes glibness for articulation. > > > I realized that back when we started our exchanges over Nazis and AR. > >> She also views Regan as something akin to Moses: He has brought down >> the sacred "ar" texts from the mountain, and they need no defense. > > > She views Linzey and others the same way. > >> Long before you began to participate here, I posted the following >> rude, snide response I got from Regan himself when I asked him to >> comment on the obvious problem that cell culture, a medical >> investigative technique that he and others refer to as "non animal", >> in fact isn't non animal at all: http://tinyurl.com/yqbb7 > > > I hope you didn't buy his book after that, even discounted. Talk about a > non-response. I did buy The Animal Rights Debate, but none of his other books, and not based on Regan's whiff-off suggestion to buy it. Cohen's side of the book was interesting; Regan's was predictable, and full of snide innuendo. That brings up another bit of Karen's sleazy dishonesty. She claims to have read the book, and predictably came out as part of Regan's amen chorus. But she also cited a "review" of the book on Amazon's web site. The "review" was by an "ar" loon former participant in t.p.a. and a.a.e.v. named Rick Bogle, whose name was *clearly* visible in the review. Here is the post in which I ridiculed Karen's claim that "several" reviewers "trounced" Cohen's position, and a followup post in which I showed Bogle was anything but a fair reviewer: http://tinyurl.com/3aj3l http://tinyurl.com/23f4w Predictably, Karen whiffed off; never even replied at all. |
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No need for farm animals.
usual suspect wrote:
> Jonathan Ball wrote: > >> BTW, if you go to that post and then explore the thread, you'll see >> one of the earliest instances of shitbag Nash deliberately lying about >> what someone else has said, THEN lying about his lies. I should have >> given up on the lump-o-shit long before I did. > > > Sophist Bob's response was ridiculous as well: > Looks to me like his answer was to read his recent > books. The fact that you don't like the answer > doesn't mean that an answer wasn't provided. > > bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! The bozos trying to defend an indefensible philosophical position never stray far from their initial patterns. |
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Schism is not desirable
usual suspect wrote: <snip> > I bet you'd be in the MCC or some other denomination if your church <snip> ....didn't have ***-friendly parishes. No, I wouldn't. I'm an Anglican, and I will be an Anglican as long as I live. Rat (not going into past issues in the ECUSA ) |
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Schism
usual suspect wrote: > Rat wrote: <snip> >> The >> inflexible on both sides make the situation worse. It's the >> conservatives who are suggesting leaving, not the liberals in the >> ECUSA. > You have already left. They will let you keep whatever names for > yourselves, but they will keep the treasure of the Gospel. And the ECUSA will keep the church property, it looks like. If they're going to sulk, they can do it in someone's living room or the local storefront. We get BOTH the gospel and the property. Rat <snip> |
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