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| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Kneading, hydration, gluten content, and holes(coarsely-textured crumb)
On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:
<snip> good description of folding process... > Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until > doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The > dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. John, At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise? Will > > HTH > > John > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:
<snip> good description of folding process... > Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until > doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The > dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. John, At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise? Will > > HTH > > John > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:
<snip> good description of folding process... > Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until > doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The > dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. John, At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise? Will > > HTH > > John > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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> >On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote: ><snip> good description of folding process... > >> Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until >> doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The >> dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. > >John, > >At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason >why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise? > >Will > >> >> HTH >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rec.food.sourdough mailing list >> >> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough > > > > > > > |
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> >On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote: ><snip> good description of folding process... > >> Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until >> doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The >> dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. > >John, > >At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason >why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise? > >Will > >> >> HTH >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rec.food.sourdough mailing list >> >> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough > > > > > > > |
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>On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote: ><snip> good description of folding process... > >> Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until >> doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The >> dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. > >John, > >At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason >why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise? > I just find I get a little more volume if I give a bulk rise and then cut into loaves with as little deflation as possible. A small point but achieving this kind of open structure is does require attention to a number of small points. John |
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>On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote: ><snip> good description of folding process... > >> Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until >> doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The >> dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. > >John, > >At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason >why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise? > I just find I get a little more volume if I give a bulk rise and then cut into loaves with as little deflation as possible. A small point but achieving this kind of open structure is does require attention to a number of small points. John |
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>On 9/18/04 9:48 AM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote: ><snip> good description of folding process... > >> Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until >> doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The >> dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. > >John, > >At the point where you've finished the stretch & fold, is there is reason >why you do not then separate into loaves for the final rise? > I just find I get a little more volume if I give a bulk rise and then cut into loaves with as little deflation as possible. A small point but achieving this kind of open structure is does require attention to a number of small points. John |
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On 9/18/04 10:48 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> > "williamwaller" > wrote in message > news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com... > >> [ ... ] > >> ("Roland hits a homer!") > >> Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful wide-open >> crumb. > > We don't know what results Roland gets, or you either, until we get some > photos. Dick, My @#$%^&* camera is on the fritz. It was one of those cheap H-P's that came with my Mac. So I cannot accommodate you. Sadly, the big hole loaves are about to be toast this morning <g>. Moving on...I am quite anxious to see how this lamination process works for whole grain loaves. Will > > Here is another experiment by me, thinking about what Roland and Dusty > said in this thread. Still not the holey big-time, but maybe interesting to > some. The dough got really bucky with the S&F's. > > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/Francense/ |
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"williamwaller" > wrote in message = news:mailman.0.1095609415.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com... > My @#$%^&* camera is on the fritz. It was one of those cheap H- > P's that came with my Mac. So I cannot accommodate you. Sadly, the=20 > big hole loaves are about to be toast this morning <g>. That is understandable. Kenneth, who has been here for years,=20 and who has every gadget known to mankind, has never succeeded to=20 produce a graphic. "Bob", who was the most prodigious exploiter=20 ever of effusive nomenclature at r.f.s. finally produced an image=20 of a Schlotzky Bun wannabe, as I recall, but I can't find it=20 anymore. Maybe that should give us some hope, anyway. Bob's wife would not let him use the scanner for bread, which was=20 very sad. But not so sad as a busted crappy digital camera, I=20 guess. > Moving on...I am quite anxious to see how this lamination process=20 > works for whole grain loaves. Well, you will probably have better luck than I would,=20 particularly since you have no way to create a record of your=20 results. The secret is to just wait a few days before attempting=20 to recall and describe the degree of success you achieved. =20 Actually, waiting several weeks is better. My doctor always=20 waits for several months before recording the results of my=20 physical examinations. That is why I am so healthy. Maybe it is time to revisit the Schlotzky Bun. It is something=20 like we have been talking about. Scroll down at=20 <http://www.schlotzskys.com/>. I have been thinking about=20 making one bun at a time in my experiments so as not to waste=20 flour. --=20 DickA=20 |
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On 9/22/04 3:07 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> > "Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message > ... > >> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/MyCiabatta.jpg > >> This bread wasn't very good. It took forever to make toast. The wife >> wouldn't eat it and I saw a sparrow making funny faces trying to eat the >> crumbs I threw in the back yard. > > "Wcsjohn" > wrote in message > ... > >> Was the crumb unpleasantly moist and gummy? > > "Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message > ... > >> Yes. > > Well, I made another "loaf", but it was so bad I do not even want > to talk about it. Woe is me! I guess it's bread at the store for me. > Too bad about Wonderbread! What will be left at the store? > > --- > DickA This is your Karma for insisting on pictures <g> and your generally suspicious nature <bg>. Get with the program: retard your bread. It will taste better and be easier to stretch and fold <very bg>. Will > > > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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"williamwaller" > wrote in message = news:mailman.2.1095884692.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com... > On 9/22/04 3:07 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote: > > Woe is me! I guess it's bread at the store for me. =20 > This is your Karma for insisting on pictures <g> and your generally > suspicious nature <bg>.=20 Politely asking is not insisting on. How can one avoid being suspicious of people who say things like: "Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful = wide-open crumb." ??? as in = news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com Well, "Joe Doe", who appeared about that time, came up with some = pictures, though seeming a bit lukewarm about them. All we have from you, = however, is exuberation, and complaints about certain cameras that come with = Macintoshes. --- DickA |
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On 9/26/04 9:39 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> > "Joe Doe" > wrote in message > ... > >> [ ... ] > >> So to get large holes you need: >> 1) a very extensible gluten web at optimum maturity and strength >> 2) very good yeast gassing to fully inflate this web >> 3) avoid deflating cells by handling especially close to bake time. >> 4) hot oven and steam to maximize oven spring ... > > Except for 4) I agree. I am still trying to believe that it is possible > to make the holey loaf in a cold-started, and not-particularly-hot, > oven. Mrs. Adams does not like the heat and water vapor in he > kitchen. Maybe she will start sleeping late eventually, but so far > she is up with the dawn each day. > > Cold-start is good from an environmentally-conservative point of > view*. Now I ask you (anybody) this: What is the difference between > taking the last part of the rise in the oven, and taking it before baking? > Quicker in the oven! What else? Dick, I have struggled with #4 myself as well. My gas oven retains a lot of water vapor (is damp) during the early stages of heating. But that hasn't translated into keeping the crust soft enough to fully develop the crumb. I get better loaves from a very hot start and proper slashing to facilitate the final push. I bake this way when I proof in baskets and invert. As to your question "what else..." I also use La Cloche covered bakers, primarily when I want a long, extensive proof, almost an over-proof situation, where the dough becomes too flaccid to handle. Most of my heavier whole grain breads get this treatment. These loaves work best with a covered cold start while the oven builds to 500 F. Then I heat soak the loaves uncovered for 12-15 minutes to mature the crust. I suppose that would translate into "taking the last part of the rise in the oven", except the doughs are usually so mature there is little spring potential. It is more trapping the outgassed dough moisture as an analogue for "steam" than anything else. This works quite well (not to the point of ebullience) but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the oven, etc... Will Will |
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"williamwaller" > wrote in message = news:mailman.5.1096214652.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com... > I have struggled with #4 myself as well. My gas oven retains a lot of = water > vapor (is damp) during the early stages of heating. But that hasn't > translated into keeping the crust soft enough to fully develop the = crumb. My point would be: if you take the whole rise before baking, there is = not a need to keep the crust pliable. So, to revise the question: can the crumb be developed as the dough rises on the bench, and if not, why not??=20 In other words, exactly why is it that we need a hot oven to make the loaves holey? Well, we are heating some gases, and vaporizing a bit of alcohol. And = getting a death blast of carbon dioxide from the "critters". But why not just = arrange for the critters to do a bit more work as the loaf sits on the counter? > I get better loaves from a very hot start and proper slashing to = facilitate > the final push. I bake this way when I proof in baskets and invert. Well, proper slashing is quite a knack, you know! And the basket flip is a marvelous antic, when mastered. I always had trouble with both. > I also use La Cloche covered bakers, primarily when I want a long, = extensive > proof, almost an over-proof situation, where the dough becomes too = flaccid > to handle. Most of my heavier whole grain breads get this treatment. = These > loaves work best with a covered cold start while the oven builds to = 500 F. > Then I heat soak the loaves uncovered for 12-15 minutes to mature the = crust. > I suppose that would translate into "taking the last part of the rise = in the > oven", except the doughs are usually so mature there is little spring > potential. It is more trapping the outgassed dough moisture as an = analogue > for "steam" than anything else. This works quite well (not to the = point of > ebullience) but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other > machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the = oven, > etc... Well, it sounds like you have got the cloche bake down to a routine. = Could you post some photos of your cloche-baked loaves? (For some reason I thought one started with a preheated cloche, and I = trepidated at the very thought of handling such a thing. "Carlos" did some = admirable work=20 with a flower pot: http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm. = Well, it says to look for further developments, but so far I have not seen any.) --=20 Dick Adams (Sourdough minimalist) <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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"williamwaller" > wrote in message = news:mailman.5.1096214652.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com... > I have struggled with #4 myself as well. My gas oven retains a lot of = water > vapor (is damp) during the early stages of heating. But that hasn't > translated into keeping the crust soft enough to fully develop the = crumb. My point would be: if you take the whole rise before baking, there is = not a need to keep the crust pliable. So, to revise the question: can the crumb be developed as the dough rises on the bench, and if not, why not??=20 In other words, exactly why is it that we need a hot oven to make the loaves holey? Well, we are heating some gases, and vaporizing a bit of alcohol. And = getting a death blast of carbon dioxide from the "critters". But why not just = arrange for the critters to do a bit more work as the loaf sits on the counter? > I get better loaves from a very hot start and proper slashing to = facilitate > the final push. I bake this way when I proof in baskets and invert. Well, proper slashing is quite a knack, you know! And the basket flip is a marvelous antic, when mastered. I always had trouble with both. > I also use La Cloche covered bakers, primarily when I want a long, = extensive > proof, almost an over-proof situation, where the dough becomes too = flaccid > to handle. Most of my heavier whole grain breads get this treatment. = These > loaves work best with a covered cold start while the oven builds to = 500 F. > Then I heat soak the loaves uncovered for 12-15 minutes to mature the = crust. > I suppose that would translate into "taking the last part of the rise = in the > oven", except the doughs are usually so mature there is little spring > potential. It is more trapping the outgassed dough moisture as an = analogue > for "steam" than anything else. This works quite well (not to the = point of > ebullience) but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other > machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the = oven, > etc... Well, it sounds like you have got the cloche bake down to a routine. = Could you post some photos of your cloche-baked loaves? (For some reason I thought one started with a preheated cloche, and I = trepidated at the very thought of handling such a thing. "Carlos" did some = admirable work=20 with a flower pot: http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm. = Well, it says to look for further developments, but so far I have not seen any.) --=20 Dick Adams (Sourdough minimalist) <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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"williamwaller" > wrote in message = news:mailman.5.1096214652.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com... > I have struggled with #4 myself as well. My gas oven retains a lot of = water > vapor (is damp) during the early stages of heating. But that hasn't > translated into keeping the crust soft enough to fully develop the = crumb. My point would be: if you take the whole rise before baking, there is = not a need to keep the crust pliable. So, to revise the question: can the crumb be developed as the dough rises on the bench, and if not, why not??=20 In other words, exactly why is it that we need a hot oven to make the loaves holey? Well, we are heating some gases, and vaporizing a bit of alcohol. And = getting a death blast of carbon dioxide from the "critters". But why not just = arrange for the critters to do a bit more work as the loaf sits on the counter? > I get better loaves from a very hot start and proper slashing to = facilitate > the final push. I bake this way when I proof in baskets and invert. Well, proper slashing is quite a knack, you know! And the basket flip is a marvelous antic, when mastered. I always had trouble with both. > I also use La Cloche covered bakers, primarily when I want a long, = extensive > proof, almost an over-proof situation, where the dough becomes too = flaccid > to handle. Most of my heavier whole grain breads get this treatment. = These > loaves work best with a covered cold start while the oven builds to = 500 F. > Then I heat soak the loaves uncovered for 12-15 minutes to mature the = crust. > I suppose that would translate into "taking the last part of the rise = in the > oven", except the doughs are usually so mature there is little spring > potential. It is more trapping the outgassed dough moisture as an = analogue > for "steam" than anything else. This works quite well (not to the = point of > ebullience) but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other > machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the = oven, > etc... Well, it sounds like you have got the cloche bake down to a routine. = Could you post some photos of your cloche-baked loaves? (For some reason I thought one started with a preheated cloche, and I = trepidated at the very thought of handling such a thing. "Carlos" did some = admirable work=20 with a flower pot: http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm. = Well, it says to look for further developments, but so far I have not seen any.) --=20 Dick Adams (Sourdough minimalist) <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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"Dick Adams" > in message = misspoke to williamwaller: > "Carlos" did some admirable work with a flower pot:=20 > http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm. =20 Ooops! http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ca...isanalLoaf.htm |
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"Dick Adams" > in message = misspoke to williamwaller: > "Carlos" did some admirable work with a flower pot:=20 > http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm. =20 Ooops! http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ca...isanalLoaf.htm |
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"Dick Adams" > in message = misspoke to williamwaller: > "Carlos" did some admirable work with a flower pot:=20 > http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm. =20 Ooops! http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ca...isanalLoaf.htm |
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On 9/26/04 1:10 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:03:56 -0500, williamwaller > > wrote: > >> but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other >> machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the oven, >> etc... > > Hi Will, > > Those approaches cool the oven significantly, and thus are probably > working against the intent. > > All the best, I agree. But could never figure a way to do them (spritzing, pans with water, etc) without opening the oven door. Your pressure cooker solution would work. If I was really industrious, I suppose I could retrofit my oven with an adaptation of the pressurized misting system I built for my sprout farm. |
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On 9/26/04 1:10 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:03:56 -0500, williamwaller > > wrote: > >> but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other >> machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the oven, >> etc... > > Hi Will, > > Those approaches cool the oven significantly, and thus are probably > working against the intent. > > All the best, I agree. But could never figure a way to do them (spritzing, pans with water, etc) without opening the oven door. Your pressure cooker solution would work. If I was really industrious, I suppose I could retrofit my oven with an adaptation of the pressurized misting system I built for my sprout farm. |
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