Does anyone have pointers on how to get big holes in the crumb? I know the
key is a very wet dough, but every time I do this (70-80 percent hydration)
the loaf kind of flattens out into a pancake and I don't get big holes.

Any tips on flours for this effect and/or mixing times and speeds?

My ideal by the way is the breads make by Sullivan Street Bakery in New York
City, if anyone knows the place.

Thanks, Sam

In article >, Samuel Fromartz
> wrote:

> Does anyone have pointers on how to get big holes in the crumb? I know the
> key is a very wet dough, but every time I do this (70-80 percent hydration)
> the loaf kind of flattens out into a pancake and I don't get big holes.
>
I've been working on this in ciabatta. I'm using a few recipes in
combination. Flavor wise I think a bit of milk in the poolish is
effective. "Room" size seemed to be helped with a warmer and longer
proof time. My oven has a proof cycle that I used the last time. The
rooms are bigger, but they're still a bit inconsistant. The bigger at
the top of the bread, but become consistantly smaller near the bottom
2/3. Check out Reinharts "Crust & Crumb" for some good info.

Sam,

I get the most consistent and rewarding results with Wheatmontana white bread
flour. It is not organic, but it is non GMO and is pesticide free. It is a
hardy high protein bread flour and was recommended by a couple of people on
this NG.

A recent link on how I get (some) holes in bread made with 74% hydration dough
using Wheatmontana flour is he

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...WithHoles.html

You'll find that big holes is common topic at RFS. If you figure out the
technique, please share with the rest of us.


Ed

Ed,
Those pictures are amazing. I'll try the technique with Bob's Red Mill
unbleached white which is high-protein. I think your key may be that much
higher temperature of 500 (I'm doing 450) to get the oven spring. (Mine
flattens out as in your picture, on the last rise, but then doesn't spring
up).

Also, is that 100 percent starter or are you using any commercial yeast?

Thanks, Sam

on 1/29/04 1:09 AM, Ed Bechtel wrote:

> Sam,
>
> I get the most consistent and rewarding results with Wheatmontana white bread
> flour. It is not organic, but it is non GMO and is pesticide free. It is a
> hardy high protein bread flour and was recommended by a couple of people on
> this NG.
>
> A recent link on how I get (some) holes in bread made with 74% hydration dough
> using Wheatmontana flour is he
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...WithHoles.html
>
> You'll find that big holes is common topic at RFS. If you figure out the
> technique, please share with the rest of us.
>
>
> Ed

Sam,
Thanks for the compliment. I didn't use any commercial or bakers yeast. This
loaf was made with Mr. Baker starter which I've beem using for over a year
because of it's demonstrated rising qualities. But recognize that the loaf
ends up weighing about a pound. I don't think bigger/taller loaves would
produce as large holes.

If you want to see an amazing loaf, we'll have to dig up Dick's photo of Iggy's
Francese. (I think Iggy uses yeast)

I found a post from a week earlier where I made similar loaf and listed
ingredients. I think the dough was kneaded 10-15 minutes. And I used 1/2 tsp
salt per equivalent cup of flour.

Exerpt:
Dough weight: 19 ounces
Hydration 72 to 74 percent
Flour: Wheatmontana White
Starter: 35% (Mr. Baker)
Finish weight: 16.5 ounces

Photos are shown. Sorry no ambient daylight was available.

Bread nearly done baking.
http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/im...eadonstone.jpg

Overall dimension.
http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/im...readlength.jpg

Three slices, a third of the way from one end.
http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices2.jpg

Same three slices on scanner (my wifes scanner).
http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices.jpg

Again,
Good luck,
Ed Bechtel

"Samuel Fromartz" > wrote in message
...
> Ed,
> Those pictures are amazing. I'll try the technique with Bob's Red Mill
> unbleached white which is high-protein. I think your key may be that much
> higher temperature of 500 (I'm doing 450) to get the oven spring. (Mine
> flattens out as in your picture, on the last rise, but then doesn't spring
> up).
>
> Also, is that 100 percent starter or are you using any commercial yeast?
>
> Thanks, Sam
>
> on 1/29/04 1:09 AM, Ed Bechtel wrote:
>
> > Sam,
> >
> > I get the most consistent and rewarding results with Wheatmontana white
bread
> > flour. It is not organic, but it is non GMO and is pesticide free. It
is a
> > hardy high protein bread flour and was recommended by a couple of people
on
> > this NG.
> >
> > A recent link on how I get (some) holes in bread made with 74% hydration
dough
> > using Wheatmontana flour is he
> >
> > http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...WithHoles.html
> >
> > You'll find that big holes is common topic at RFS. If you figure out
the
> > technique, please share with the rest of us.
> >
> >
> > Ed
>
I forgot to ask, I see RFS and r.f.s. mentioned again and again. Can't find
that in my abbreviations list. I'm sure when you tell me, I'll be
embarrassed that I couldn't figure it out, but please tell me.
Thanks,
dee

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
> I forgot to ask, I see RFS and r.f.s. mentioned again and again. Can't
find
> that in my abbreviations list. I'm sure when you tell me, I'll be
> embarrassed that I couldn't figure it out, but please tell me.
> Thanks,
> dee
>
you are there--Rec.Food.Sourdough

I have been lurking this newsgroup for awhile now. Ed, the holes looks
awesome! I am definitely going to give the flour a try. I normally use
KA unbleached bread flour and SF sourdough from Sourdough International.
I have gotten some nice holes but never that huge.

Ada
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Ed Bechtel wrote:

> Sam,
>
> I get the most consistent and rewarding results with Wheatmontana white bread
> flour. It is not organic, but it is non GMO and is pesticide free. It is a
> hardy high protein bread flour and was recommended by a couple of people on
> this NG.
>
> A recent link on how I get (some) holes in bread made with 74% hydration dough
> using Wheatmontana flour is he
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...WithHoles.html
>
> You'll find that big holes is common topic at RFS. If you figure out the
> technique, please share with the rest of us.
>
>
> Ed
>

I agree - also Ed do you kneed by hand or machine? Thanks, Sam

on 1/30/04 11:28 AM, Ada Cheng wrote:

> I have been lurking this newsgroup for awhile now. Ed, the holes looks
> awesome! I am definitely going to give the flour a try. I normally use
> KA unbleached bread flour and SF sourdough from Sourdough International.
> I have gotten some nice holes but never that huge.
>
> Ada
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Ed Bechtel wrote:
>
>> Sam,
>>
>> I get the most consistent and rewarding results with Wheatmontana white bread
>> flour. It is not organic, but it is non GMO and is pesticide free. It is a
>> hardy high protein bread flour and was recommended by a couple of people on
>> this NG.
>>
>> A recent link on how I get (some) holes in bread made with 74% hydration
>> dough
>> using Wheatmontana flour is he
>>
>> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...WithHoles.html
>>
>> You'll find that big holes is common topic at RFS. If you figure out the
>> technique, please share with the rest of us.
>>
>>
>> Ed
>>

Sam, Ada

I knead using Kitchen Aid machine and the dough hook.

For 19 ounce dough I think it went something like this:

8 ounces Wheatmontana premium unbleached white flour
1-2 Tablespoon of wheat germ for character
4.3 ounces water
6.7 ounces very active starter
heaping tsp of salt


I put all the ingredients in the mixer except the salt and 1-2 ounces of the
water.
Mix and knead for 2 minutes, rest for 15 minutes.
Add salt and knead for maybe 6 more minutes slowly adding the reserved water in
last two minutes to obtain a very slack dough, one you can't work with your
hands.

Rise dough for 3-4 hours or use judgement.

Lightly form dough to shape and rest on well floured couche to hold shape.
Rise for 40-60 minutes.
Flip over onto parchment and let rise another 30-40 minutes.

Bake in hot oven. Massive steam is important in this approach as shown in one
of those links.

Beware; different flours absorb water very differently. You will need to use
your experience over anything written here.

Also, If I remember correctly the SDI starter I used to own was very strong at
rising bread and might benefit holey loave.

Ed Bechtel

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> Sam,
>
> I get the most consistent and rewarding results with Wheatmontana white
bread
> flour. It is not organic, but it is non GMO and is pesticide free. It is
a
> hardy high protein bread flour and was recommended by a couple of people
on
> this NG.
>
> A recent link on how I get (some) holes in bread made with 74% hydration
dough
> using Wheatmontana flour is he
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...WithHoles.html
>
> You'll find that big holes is common topic at RFS. If you figure out the
> technique, please share with the rest of us.
>
>
> Ed

Hello, Ed, Thanks for poisting your pictures. I really appreciate it.
I have a couple of questions re your first and second pictures.

You say,
"After 3-1/2 hour rise, dough gently formed into loaf and set onto rice
floured couche."

Then you say,
After 40 minute proof at 80F, loaf inverted onto parchment for another 40
min. "

Is this the way it goes?

1)After a 3-1/2 hour rise (in whatever), you formed the loaf and put it
onto a rice floured couche for 40 minutes?
2) After the end of that 40 minutes on the couche, you rolled it off (or
picked it up) off the couche onto a piece of parchment paper for yet ANOTHER
40 minutes.

I see that you used a rusty skillet -- I use a rusty cast iron bread pan --
but when I put the stone in the oven, I also (try to remember to ) put the
pan into the oven at the same time. This way I have another chance NOT to
forget to heat my pan. I've forgotten several times and it is a
disappointment.

Another question: I see that some recommend rice flour on the couche; I
have been using flour, but it sure puts a lot of flour on the couche.

I loved the looks of your bread, pictures and the way it was layed out on
your web page.

thanks,
Dee

Dee,
Yes That is the way that loaf was made.
1. A fairly slack dough fermented and rose for 3-4 hours in a big covered bowl
at 80 plus degrees. Scraped the dough out onto board and maybe folded it and
sealed it once without flattening or pressing it. Put it in floured couche with
the idea that maybe a floured crown would not spread as much later (kind of
worked). Let it rise 40 minutes.
2. Rolled the loaf onto parchment because I new I would biff it if i tried
rolling it at the end of the final rise. Yes let it rise another 40 minutes on
the parchment while oven heated. 80 to 90F

I heat the skillet separately because I think it gets hotter than the 500 F
oven and thus can produce more steam.

The rice flour like everything else was recommended by this newsgroup. It
works like teflon. But it is more gritty than regular white flour. There's
nothing wrong with a massive amount of regular flour the way you do it- it
looks great on bread !

That loaf turned out OK, but for every one of those attempts at holey bread
there's a loaf that ends up looking like a sourdough pancake. I don't post
pictures of the pancakes.

Thanks,
Ed Bechtel

Ed Bechtel wrote:

(snip)

I forget, how long do you "autolyse" before kneading?

B/

Brian,
The ingredients all go into the mixer and knead for about 2 to 5 minutes then
rest 15 to 30 minutes before adding the salt and doing the 10 15 or 20 minute
kneading.

I do it that way out of habit but couldn't tell you if it really makes a bit of
difference. Maybe for slack doughs it gives dough a chance to absorb the water
and develop a structure instead of acting like pancake batter.

Ed