On 9/19/04 12:38 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.0.1095609415.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
>> My @#$%^&* camera is on the fritz. It was one of those cheap H-
>> P's that came with my Mac. So I cannot accommodate you. Sadly, the
>> big hole loaves are about to be toast this morning <g>.
>
> That is understandable. Kenneth, who has been here for years,
> and who has every gadget known to mankind, has never succeeded to
> produce a graphic. "Bob", who was the most prodigious exploiter
> ever of effusive nomenclature at r.f.s. finally produced an image
> of a Schlotzky Bun wannabe, as I recall, but I can't find it
> anymore. Maybe that should give us some hope, anyway.

The toast was pretty good even though the butter dripped through the big
holes and incredibly porous crumb.

>
> Bob's wife would not let him use the scanner for bread, which was
> very sad. But not so sad as a busted crappy digital camera, I
> guess.
>

Yes, sadder than you think. Especially since now the wife wants a Nikon D70.
When I married her she had more reasonable taste. We celebrated our 1st
anniversary with a little KitchenAid; not pearls.

>> Moving on...I am quite anxious to see how this lamination process
>> works for whole grain loaves.
>
> Well, you will probably have better luck than I would,
> particularly since you have no way to create a record of your
> results. The secret is to just wait a few days before attempting
> to recall and describe the degree of success you achieved.
> Actually, waiting several weeks is better.

But I will still post the truth! Trust me.

> Maybe it is time to revisit the Schlotzky Bun. It is something
> like we have been talking about. Scroll down at
> <http://www.schlotzskys.com/>. I have been thinking about
> making one bun at a time in my experiments so as not to waste
> flour.

Too bad we're not neighbors, the wife would eat them...

Will

On 9/19/04 12:38 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.0.1095609415.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
>> My @#$%^&* camera is on the fritz. It was one of those cheap H-
>> P's that came with my Mac. So I cannot accommodate you. Sadly, the
>> big hole loaves are about to be toast this morning <g>.
>
> That is understandable. Kenneth, who has been here for years,
> and who has every gadget known to mankind, has never succeeded to
> produce a graphic. "Bob", who was the most prodigious exploiter
> ever of effusive nomenclature at r.f.s. finally produced an image
> of a Schlotzky Bun wannabe, as I recall, but I can't find it
> anymore. Maybe that should give us some hope, anyway.

The toast was pretty good even though the butter dripped through the big
holes and incredibly porous crumb.

>
> Bob's wife would not let him use the scanner for bread, which was
> very sad. But not so sad as a busted crappy digital camera, I
> guess.
>

Yes, sadder than you think. Especially since now the wife wants a Nikon D70.
When I married her she had more reasonable taste. We celebrated our 1st
anniversary with a little KitchenAid; not pearls.

>> Moving on...I am quite anxious to see how this lamination process
>> works for whole grain loaves.
>
> Well, you will probably have better luck than I would,
> particularly since you have no way to create a record of your
> results. The secret is to just wait a few days before attempting
> to recall and describe the degree of success you achieved.
> Actually, waiting several weeks is better.

But I will still post the truth! Trust me.

> Maybe it is time to revisit the Schlotzky Bun. It is something
> like we have been talking about. Scroll down at
> <http://www.schlotzskys.com/>. I have been thinking about
> making one bun at a time in my experiments so as not to waste
> flour.

Too bad we're not neighbors, the wife would eat them...

Will

On 9/19/04 12:38 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.0.1095609415.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
>> My @#$%^&* camera is on the fritz. It was one of those cheap H-
>> P's that came with my Mac. So I cannot accommodate you. Sadly, the
>> big hole loaves are about to be toast this morning <g>.
>
> That is understandable. Kenneth, who has been here for years,
> and who has every gadget known to mankind, has never succeeded to
> produce a graphic. "Bob", who was the most prodigious exploiter
> ever of effusive nomenclature at r.f.s. finally produced an image
> of a Schlotzky Bun wannabe, as I recall, but I can't find it
> anymore. Maybe that should give us some hope, anyway.

The toast was pretty good even though the butter dripped through the big
holes and incredibly porous crumb.

>
> Bob's wife would not let him use the scanner for bread, which was
> very sad. But not so sad as a busted crappy digital camera, I
> guess.
>

Yes, sadder than you think. Especially since now the wife wants a Nikon D70.
When I married her she had more reasonable taste. We celebrated our 1st
anniversary with a little KitchenAid; not pearls.

>> Moving on...I am quite anxious to see how this lamination process
>> works for whole grain loaves.
>
> Well, you will probably have better luck than I would,
> particularly since you have no way to create a record of your
> results. The secret is to just wait a few days before attempting
> to recall and describe the degree of success you achieved.
> Actually, waiting several weeks is better.

But I will still post the truth! Trust me.

> Maybe it is time to revisit the Schlotzky Bun. It is something
> like we have been talking about. Scroll down at
> <http://www.schlotzskys.com/>. I have been thinking about
> making one bun at a time in my experiments so as not to waste
> flour.

Too bad we're not neighbors, the wife would eat them...

Will

On 9/22/04 10:26 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.2.1095884692.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
>> On 9/22/04 3:07 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
>
>>> Woe is me! I guess it's bread at the store for me.
>
>> This is your Karma for insisting on pictures <g> and your generally
>> suspicious nature <bg>.
>
> Politely asking is not insisting on. How can one avoid being suspicious
> of people who say things like:
> "Works like a dream. Loaves literally soared in the oven. Beautiful wide-open
> crumb."
> ???
> as in news:mailman.0.1095552750.243.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com
>
> Well, "Joe Doe", who appeared about that time, came up with some pictures,
> though seeming a bit lukewarm about them. All we have from you, however, is
> exuberation, and complaints about certain cameras that come with Macintoshes.
>
> ---
> DickA

Once in a while there's a real nugget to be mined on this list. This one
belongs to Roland.

Will
(exuberant minimalist)

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.3.1095954637.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> Once in a while there's a real nugget to be mined on this list. This =
one
> belongs to Roland.

I thought so too. But his photos were much to big for my screen and =
humble
dial-up connection. I took one of them and cut it down to a reasonable =
size:

http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...5percentWW/=20

(I hope he will forgive me for that.)

---
DickA

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.3.1095954637.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> Once in a while there's a real nugget to be mined on this list. This =
one
> belongs to Roland.

I thought so too. But his photos were much to big for my screen and =
humble
dial-up connection. I took one of them and cut it down to a reasonable =
size:

http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...5percentWW/=20

(I hope he will forgive me for that.)

---
DickA

In article
>,
"Dick Adams" > wrote:

> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.3.1095954637.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
> > Once in a while there's a real nugget to be mined on this list. This one
> > belongs to Roland.
>
> I thought so too. But his photos were much to big for my screen and humble
> dial-up connection. I took one of them and cut it down to a reasonable size:
>
> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...oe25percentWW/
>
> (I hope he will forgive me for that.)
>
> ---
> DickA


To what size do you shrink pictures to be dial up friendly?

Roland

In article
>,
"Dick Adams" > wrote:

> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.3.1095954637.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
> > Once in a while there's a real nugget to be mined on this list. This one
> > belongs to Roland.
>
> I thought so too. But his photos were much to big for my screen and humble
> dial-up connection. I took one of them and cut it down to a reasonable size:
>
> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...oe25percentWW/
>
> (I hope he will forgive me for that.)
>
> ---
> DickA


To what size do you shrink pictures to be dial up friendly?

Roland

"Joe Doe" > wrote in message =
...

> > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...5percentWW/=20

> To what size do you shrink pictures to be dial up friendly?

The top one is 640 x 480 @ 72 ppi. That does not look too bad on my
800 x 600 pixel screen. File size can also be reduced by lowering JPG
quality, which is hard to notice. Some graphics programs have utilities
that do all the stuff semiautomically. People who put out big bucks for
high-res. digital cameras, who have way-broad-band hook-ups and huge
monitor screens, may not see the advantage of reducing file size, =
however.
At http://samartha.net/SD/, you can usually display images in your =
choice of=20
screen size. Then you can decide for yourself the size at which no =
further=20
significant detail comes apparent.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com

"Joe Doe" > wrote in message =
...

> > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...5percentWW/=20

> To what size do you shrink pictures to be dial up friendly?

The top one is 640 x 480 @ 72 ppi. That does not look too bad on my
800 x 600 pixel screen. File size can also be reduced by lowering JPG
quality, which is hard to notice. Some graphics programs have utilities
that do all the stuff semiautomically. People who put out big bucks for
high-res. digital cameras, who have way-broad-band hook-ups and huge
monitor screens, may not see the advantage of reducing file size, =
however.
At http://samartha.net/SD/, you can usually display images in your =
choice of=20
screen size. Then you can decide for yourself the size at which no =
further=20
significant detail comes apparent.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com

On 9/26/04 12:06 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.5.1096214652.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
>> I have struggled with #4 myself as well. My gas oven retains a lot of water
>> vapor (is damp) during the early stages of heating. But that hasn't
>> translated into keeping the crust soft enough to fully develop the crumb.
>
> My point would be: if you take the whole rise before baking, there is not
> a need to keep the crust pliable.

True. But I don't proof to extreme when using the baskets because then the
invert turns to slop.
>
> So, to revise the question: can the crumb be developed as the dough
> rises on the bench, and if not, why not??

I think it needs the heat at the end to facilitate a more fully developed
(open) structure.

> In other words, exactly why is it that we need a hot oven to make the
> loaves holey?
>
> Well, we are heating some gases, and vaporizing a bit of alcohol. And getting
> a death blast of carbon dioxide from the "critters". But why not just
> arrange
> for the critters to do a bit more work as the loaf sits on the counter?
>
>> I get better loaves from a very hot start and proper slashing to facilitate
>> the final push. I bake this way when I proof in baskets and invert.
>
> Well, proper slashing is quite a knack, you know!

Tell me about it... I finally got this nifty lame from TMB Baking for $5
that made me semi-competent.

>And the basket flip is a marvelous antic, when mastered. I always had trouble
with both.

Do you use floured linen? Or does Mrs. Adams require the economy of dish
towels...

>> I also use La Cloche covered bakers, primarily when I want a long, extensive
>> proof, almost an over-proof situation, where the dough becomes too flaccid
>> to handle. Most of my heavier whole grain breads get this treatment. These
>> loaves work best with a covered cold start while the oven builds to 500 F.
>> Then I heat soak the loaves uncovered for 12-15 minutes to mature the crust.
>> I suppose that would translate into "taking the last part of the rise in the
>> oven", except the doughs are usually so mature there is little spring
>> potential. It is more trapping the outgassed dough moisture as an analogue
>> for "steam" than anything else. This works quite well (not to the point of
>> ebullience) but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other
>> machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the oven,
>> etc...
>
> Well, it sounds like you have got the cloche bake down to a routine. Could
> you post some photos of your cloche-baked loaves?

When I get another camera, be happy to.
>
> (For some reason I thought one started with a preheated cloche, and I
> trepidated at the very thought of handling such a thing. "Carlos" did some
>admirable work with a flower pot:
>http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm.

Peter Reinhart recommends pre-heating the cloche base and top too. Despite
my immense respect for his contributions to the bread world, I thought I'd
give cold starts a trial. Just pure dumb luck I suppose. And in fact... to
repeat myself, a cold start works great with cloches. But it does go against
the grain of accepted practice. Most experienced bakers think you're nuts
for suggesting it. Commercial practice is a strong influence.

On 9/26/04 12:06 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.5.1096214652.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
>> I have struggled with #4 myself as well. My gas oven retains a lot of water
>> vapor (is damp) during the early stages of heating. But that hasn't
>> translated into keeping the crust soft enough to fully develop the crumb.
>
> My point would be: if you take the whole rise before baking, there is not
> a need to keep the crust pliable.

True. But I don't proof to extreme when using the baskets because then the
invert turns to slop.
>
> So, to revise the question: can the crumb be developed as the dough
> rises on the bench, and if not, why not??

I think it needs the heat at the end to facilitate a more fully developed
(open) structure.

> In other words, exactly why is it that we need a hot oven to make the
> loaves holey?
>
> Well, we are heating some gases, and vaporizing a bit of alcohol. And getting
> a death blast of carbon dioxide from the "critters". But why not just
> arrange
> for the critters to do a bit more work as the loaf sits on the counter?
>
>> I get better loaves from a very hot start and proper slashing to facilitate
>> the final push. I bake this way when I proof in baskets and invert.
>
> Well, proper slashing is quite a knack, you know!

Tell me about it... I finally got this nifty lame from TMB Baking for $5
that made me semi-competent.

>And the basket flip is a marvelous antic, when mastered. I always had trouble
with both.

Do you use floured linen? Or does Mrs. Adams require the economy of dish
towels...

>> I also use La Cloche covered bakers, primarily when I want a long, extensive
>> proof, almost an over-proof situation, where the dough becomes too flaccid
>> to handle. Most of my heavier whole grain breads get this treatment. These
>> loaves work best with a covered cold start while the oven builds to 500 F.
>> Then I heat soak the loaves uncovered for 12-15 minutes to mature the crust.
>> I suppose that would translate into "taking the last part of the rise in the
>> oven", except the doughs are usually so mature there is little spring
>> potential. It is more trapping the outgassed dough moisture as an analogue
>> for "steam" than anything else. This works quite well (not to the point of
>> ebullience) but has proven far superior, and simpler, than any other
>> machination for generating "steam" like pans with water, spritzing the oven,
>> etc...
>
> Well, it sounds like you have got the cloche bake down to a routine. Could
> you post some photos of your cloche-baked loaves?

When I get another camera, be happy to.
>
> (For some reason I thought one started with a preheated cloche, and I
> trepidated at the very thought of handling such a thing. "Carlos" did some
>admirable work with a flower pot:
>http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm.

Peter Reinhart recommends pre-heating the cloche base and top too. Despite
my immense respect for his contributions to the bread world, I thought I'd
give cold starts a trial. Just pure dumb luck I suppose. And in fact... to
repeat myself, a cold start works great with cloches. But it does go against
the grain of accepted practice. Most experienced bakers think you're nuts
for suggesting it. Commercial practice is a strong influence.

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.6.1096222660.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
=20
> I finally got this nifty lame from TMB Baking for $5
> that made me semi-competent.

> Do you use floured linen?=20

You are clearly in at a level of sophisticated technological=20
implementation I have yet to achieve.=20

> > Could you post some photos of your cloche-baked loaves?
=20
> When I get another camera, be happy to.

Get one now, Will. We are getting very impatient!

---
DickA

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.6.1096222660.536.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
=20
> I finally got this nifty lame from TMB Baking for $5
> that made me semi-competent.

> Do you use floured linen?=20

You are clearly in at a level of sophisticated technological=20
implementation I have yet to achieve.=20

> > Could you post some photos of your cloche-baked loaves?
=20
> When I get another camera, be happy to.

Get one now, Will. We are getting very impatient!

---
DickA

On 9/26/04 12:19 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "Dick Adams" > in message
>
> misspoke to williamwaller:
>
>> "Carlos" did some admirable work with a flower pot:
>> http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm.
>
> Ooops!
>
> http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ca...isanalLoaf.htm

So the faeries have given way to terra cotta!
Pretty respectable loaf shot there...

>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 9/26/04 12:19 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "Dick Adams" > in message
>
> misspoke to williamwaller:
>
>> "Carlos" did some admirable work with a flower pot:
>> http://home.att.net/carlospics/ArtisanalLoaf.htm.
>
> Ooops!
>
> http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ca...isanalLoaf.htm

So the faeries have given way to terra cotta!
Pretty respectable loaf shot there...

>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

<large snip>

>Peter Reinhart recommends pre-heating the cloche base and top too. Despite
>my immense respect for his contributions to the bread world, I thought I'd
>give cold starts a trial. Just pure dumb luck I suppose. And in fact... to
>repeat myself, a cold start works great with cloches. But it does go against
>the grain of accepted practice. Most experienced bakers think you're nuts
>for suggesting it. Commercial practice is a strong influence.

Correct. Adapting a commercial bakery's operation to cold start would, I
suspect, be a little mischancy. But there is an attitude, prevalent amongst the
members of any profession, which says "If we don't do it, it can't possibly
work."

I collaborated with Ed Okie on developing cold starts for Reinhart's Pain a
l'Ancienne and had considerable success BUT I was using a fan oven with a 10
minute, room temperature to 250C, heating time.

My current oven, crude, gas, no fan, cheap (which is why we've got it, cash is
short at the moment) and heats to 300C so it's great for hot starts but the
heat time to 250C is over 20 minutes. And the hot air flow from the burners
at the back burns the top of the bread.

Ed was weary of the usual, "Cold start? For Bread? I wish I had some of what
you've been smoking!" reaction as I became, in time.

John

<large snip>

>Peter Reinhart recommends pre-heating the cloche base and top too. Despite
>my immense respect for his contributions to the bread world, I thought I'd
>give cold starts a trial. Just pure dumb luck I suppose. And in fact... to
>repeat myself, a cold start works great with cloches. But it does go against
>the grain of accepted practice. Most experienced bakers think you're nuts
>for suggesting it. Commercial practice is a strong influence.

Correct. Adapting a commercial bakery's operation to cold start would, I
suspect, be a little mischancy. But there is an attitude, prevalent amongst the
members of any profession, which says "If we don't do it, it can't possibly
work."

I collaborated with Ed Okie on developing cold starts for Reinhart's Pain a
l'Ancienne and had considerable success BUT I was using a fan oven with a 10
minute, room temperature to 250C, heating time.

My current oven, crude, gas, no fan, cheap (which is why we've got it, cash is
short at the moment) and heats to 300C so it's great for hot starts but the
heat time to 250C is over 20 minutes. And the hot air flow from the burners
at the back burns the top of the bread.

Ed was weary of the usual, "Cold start? For Bread? I wish I had some of what
you've been smoking!" reaction as I became, in time.

John

Those of you that have tried my recipes and know my baking style, know that
it's been my habit to do cold starts. Over time I've altered all of my
recipes to accommodate that method. However, for the last few months I've
been fooling with my latest Coccodrillo recipe. The quantities I use, the
size of my oven, and the amount of pre-bake rise I get necessitates that I
make two loaves. That means two separate baking events. My preferred
method is cold start; however the second loaf gets a hot start since it
follows it's partner by 30-minutes into the fires of hell-on-earth...(:-)!

The cold start loaf is ALWAYS higher, and has larger evenly distributed
holes. The second loaf gets done about 5 minutes sooner. But it's always a
bit smaller, and the interior structure always shows a top-weighted (larger
at the top), asymmetric hole structure. And no, I've never found a flavor
difference between the loaves.

I know that many of you will *only* bake into a hot oven, and that's fine
with me. It's just that in my experience I find the cold start both easier,
quicker, and (for those reasons) superior. Obviously, YMMV...

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message
...
> <large snip>
>
>>Peter Reinhart recommends pre-heating the cloche base and top too. Despite
>>my immense respect for his contributions to the bread world, I thought I'd
>>give cold starts a trial. Just pure dumb luck I suppose. And in fact... to
>>repeat myself, a cold start works great with cloches. But it does go
>>against
>>the grain of accepted practice. Most experienced bakers think you're nuts
>>for suggesting it. Commercial practice is a strong influence.
>
> Correct. Adapting a commercial bakery's operation to cold start would, I
> suspect, be a little mischancy. But there is an attitude, prevalent
> amongst the
> members of any profession, which says "If we don't do it, it can't
> possibly
> work."
>
> I collaborated with Ed Okie on developing cold starts for Reinhart's Pain
> a
> l'Ancienne and had considerable success BUT I was using a fan oven with a
> 10
> minute, room temperature to 250C, heating time.
>
> My current oven, crude, gas, no fan, cheap (which is why we've got it,
> cash is
> short at the moment) and heats to 300C so it's great for hot starts but
> the
> heat time to 250C is over 20 minutes. And the hot air flow from the
> burners
> at the back burns the top of the bread.
>
> Ed was weary of the usual, "Cold start? For Bread? I wish I had some of
> what
> you've been smoking!" reaction as I became, in time.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Those of you that have tried my recipes and know my baking style, know that
it's been my habit to do cold starts. Over time I've altered all of my
recipes to accommodate that method. However, for the last few months I've
been fooling with my latest Coccodrillo recipe. The quantities I use, the
size of my oven, and the amount of pre-bake rise I get necessitates that I
make two loaves. That means two separate baking events. My preferred
method is cold start; however the second loaf gets a hot start since it
follows it's partner by 30-minutes into the fires of hell-on-earth...(:-)!

The cold start loaf is ALWAYS higher, and has larger evenly distributed
holes. The second loaf gets done about 5 minutes sooner. But it's always a
bit smaller, and the interior structure always shows a top-weighted (larger
at the top), asymmetric hole structure. And no, I've never found a flavor
difference between the loaves.

I know that many of you will *only* bake into a hot oven, and that's fine
with me. It's just that in my experience I find the cold start both easier,
quicker, and (for those reasons) superior. Obviously, YMMV...

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message
...
> <large snip>
>
>>Peter Reinhart recommends pre-heating the cloche base and top too. Despite
>>my immense respect for his contributions to the bread world, I thought I'd
>>give cold starts a trial. Just pure dumb luck I suppose. And in fact... to
>>repeat myself, a cold start works great with cloches. But it does go
>>against
>>the grain of accepted practice. Most experienced bakers think you're nuts
>>for suggesting it. Commercial practice is a strong influence.
>
> Correct. Adapting a commercial bakery's operation to cold start would, I
> suspect, be a little mischancy. But there is an attitude, prevalent
> amongst the
> members of any profession, which says "If we don't do it, it can't
> possibly
> work."
>
> I collaborated with Ed Okie on developing cold starts for Reinhart's Pain
> a
> l'Ancienne and had considerable success BUT I was using a fan oven with a
> 10
> minute, room temperature to 250C, heating time.
>
> My current oven, crude, gas, no fan, cheap (which is why we've got it,
> cash is
> short at the moment) and heats to 300C so it's great for hot starts but
> the
> heat time to 250C is over 20 minutes. And the hot air flow from the
> burners
> at the back burns the top of the bread.
>
> Ed was weary of the usual, "Cold start? For Bread? I wish I had some of
> what
> you've been smoking!" reaction as I became, in time.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:09:37 -0700, "Dusty"
> wrote:

>The cold start loaf is ALWAYS higher, and has larger evenly distributed
>holes. The second loaf gets done about 5 minutes sooner. But it's always a
>bit smaller, and the interior structure always shows a top-weighted (larger
>at the top), asymmetric hole structure. And no, I've never found a flavor
>difference between the loaves.

Hi Dusty,

Of course, you may be correct, but...

What leads you to believe that it is the cold start that contributes
to the difference? Might it not be that the second loaf has risen
thirty minutes longer? Or said another way, might it not be that the
slightly less fully proofed loaf has more spring available during the
bake?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
....
>>The cold start loaf is ALWAYS higher, and has larger evenly distributed
>>holes. The second loaf gets done about 5 minutes sooner. But it's always
>>a
>>bit smaller, and the interior structure always shows a top-weighted
>>(larger
>>at the top), asymmetric hole structure. And no, I've never found a flavor
>>difference between the loaves.
>
> Hi Dusty,
>
> Of course, you may be correct, but...
>
> What leads you to believe that it is the cold start that contributes
> to the difference? Might it not be that the second loaf has risen
> thirty minutes longer? Or said another way, might it not be that the
> slightly less fully proofed loaf has more spring available during the
> bake?

Hi Kenneth & all;

Of course, that's certainly possible--most anything "out of line" is
possible... But, I'd submit that it's probably not the reason. Being the
busybody that I am, my loaves get into the oven +/- 2-hours or more... You
know, stuff happens...sometimes I don't get back to the house and they rise
hours longer than I'd like, and other times I've got other things to do so
they get baked with less rise than I'd like... Truth be told, I've never
found all that much difference. As someone had pointed out, less final rise
seems to yield more oven spring. Although ever since I've begun using your
S&F technique, ALL of my loaves have blossomed beautifully during that final
rise and during baking...

I've had a few that were over or underbaked, and *that* IS noticeable! But
the rise time hasn't made much impact so far. OTOH; I've never let one go
to way, way, way overproof it, just to see what happens. That's probably
something I should do one of these days...just to observe a problem in
action.

At the moment I'm doing another iteration of one of my new sweetdough SD
breads. It's similar to the Schiacciata l'uva I made last week. But this
time I'm using milk instead of water, and I dumped the grapes in favor of
some beautiful, ripe black plums. I also dumped the ground anise seed for
some cinnamon & cloves. I'll let y'all know how it goes... It's still on
the final ferment, looking for a bit more loft before I hit it with the
heat...


Later all,
Dusty
San Jose, Ca.


--
Remove STORE to reply

>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
....
>>The cold start loaf is ALWAYS higher, and has larger evenly distributed
>>holes. The second loaf gets done about 5 minutes sooner. But it's always
>>a
>>bit smaller, and the interior structure always shows a top-weighted
>>(larger
>>at the top), asymmetric hole structure. And no, I've never found a flavor
>>difference between the loaves.
>
> Hi Dusty,
>
> Of course, you may be correct, but...
>
> What leads you to believe that it is the cold start that contributes
> to the difference? Might it not be that the second loaf has risen
> thirty minutes longer? Or said another way, might it not be that the
> slightly less fully proofed loaf has more spring available during the
> bake?

Hi Kenneth & all;

Of course, that's certainly possible--most anything "out of line" is
possible... But, I'd submit that it's probably not the reason. Being the
busybody that I am, my loaves get into the oven +/- 2-hours or more... You
know, stuff happens...sometimes I don't get back to the house and they rise
hours longer than I'd like, and other times I've got other things to do so
they get baked with less rise than I'd like... Truth be told, I've never
found all that much difference. As someone had pointed out, less final rise
seems to yield more oven spring. Although ever since I've begun using your
S&F technique, ALL of my loaves have blossomed beautifully during that final
rise and during baking...

I've had a few that were over or underbaked, and *that* IS noticeable! But
the rise time hasn't made much impact so far. OTOH; I've never let one go
to way, way, way overproof it, just to see what happens. That's probably
something I should do one of these days...just to observe a problem in
action.

At the moment I'm doing another iteration of one of my new sweetdough SD
breads. It's similar to the Schiacciata l'uva I made last week. But this
time I'm using milk instead of water, and I dumped the grapes in favor of
some beautiful, ripe black plums. I also dumped the ground anise seed for
some cinnamon & cloves. I'll let y'all know how it goes... It's still on
the final ferment, looking for a bit more loft before I hit it with the
heat...


Later all,
Dusty
San Jose, Ca.


--
Remove STORE to reply

>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 17:18:28 -0700, "Dusty"
> wrote:

>Although ever since I've begun using your
>S&F technique, ALL of my loaves have blossomed beautifully

Hi Dusty,

Credit where credit is due, I believe that the S&F came from John...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

>
>>Although ever since I've begun using your
>>S&F technique, ALL of my loaves have blossomed beautifully
>
>Hi Dusty,
>
>Credit where credit is due, I believe that the S&F came from John...
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>
>
>

Kenneth,

I always say this ("We know, we know!" the list cries.) but I have, at most,
popularised and extended the use of Stretch 'n' Fold.

I must, one day, try to track down exactly where the technique originated, if
such an origin actually exists.

But not today<g>

John

Oops! Thanks, Kenneth. I had indeed meant "WCSjohn".

Although I'd heard that term bandied about in times past, it wasn't until
John kicked me hard enough to get me to pay attention, that I used it. To
whomever is/was responsible for getting that technique into my ken, many
grateful thanks to you--wherever or whenever you are....

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 17:18:28 -0700, "Dusty"
> > wrote:
>
>>Although ever since I've begun using your
>>S&F technique, ALL of my loaves have blossomed beautifully
>
> Hi Dusty,
>
> Credit where credit is due, I believe that the S&F came from John...
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Oops! Thanks, Kenneth. I had indeed meant "WCSjohn".

Although I'd heard that term bandied about in times past, it wasn't until
John kicked me hard enough to get me to pay attention, that I used it. To
whomever is/was responsible for getting that technique into my ken, many
grateful thanks to you--wherever or whenever you are....

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 17:18:28 -0700, "Dusty"
> > wrote:
>
>>Although ever since I've begun using your
>>S&F technique, ALL of my loaves have blossomed beautifully
>
> Hi Dusty,
>
> Credit where credit is due, I believe that the S&F came from John...
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Oops! Thanks, Kenneth. I had indeed meant "WCSjohn".

Although I'd heard that term bandied about in times past, it wasn't until
John kicked me hard enough to get me to pay attention, that I used it. To
whomever is/was responsible for getting that technique into my ken, many
grateful thanks to you--wherever or whenever you are....

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 17:18:28 -0700, "Dusty"
> > wrote:
>
>>Although ever since I've begun using your
>>S&F technique, ALL of my loaves have blossomed beautifully
>
> Hi Dusty,
>
> Credit where credit is due, I believe that the S&F came from John...
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."