"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:09:12 -0500, "MaryL"
> -OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote:
>
>>
>>"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:50:52 -0700 (PDT), "
>>>
>>> That's not true, age has nothing to do with how folks pay, in fact
>>> older folks have most of the disposable income and are more apt to pay
>>> using all methods. And the elderly in nursing homes have all their
>>> finances assigned, the home receives their SS check and pension check
>>> electronically, the elderly in nursing homes don't handle much money,
>>> they are permitted a small allowance for incidentals that are
>>> typically paid for with cash, candy bar machine, manicurist,
>>> newspapers, magazines, bingo.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Actually, there's a wide variety of how funds are handled in nursing
>>homes.
>>My mother was not able to handle her finances, but nothing was assigned.
>>She was a private pay patient, and I took care of everything. I wrote
>>checks to the nursing home each month, to pharmacy for her prescriptions,
>>and to other places for incidentals. She had her own income, which
>>usually
>>paid her expenses--it took careful budgeting, but I was usually able to
>>handle everything out of her pension and Social Security. On occasions
>>when
>>she was hospitalized or had to use ambulance frequently, I would have to
>>transfer money out of her savings (which were rather meagre). This is
>>another reason why I like to write checks for some items--I was careful
>>never to intermingle her funds with mine, and I always wrote checks on her
>>account to pay for her expenses (I had power of attorney). I kept very
>>careful records of all of her expenses. Fortunately, my siblings were
>>always very supportive and never questioned anything (far different from
>>much of what I saw). By contrast, my mother's roommate was on Medicaid.
>>He
>>expenses were paid for by Medicaid, and there were not funds at all to
>>"assign." The woman in the room next-door took care of everything
>>herself.
>>She was alert, competent, had her own funds, but was no longer able to
>>live
>>alone. Again, none of her funds were assigned. Incidentally, I was my
>>mother's sole caregiver for 5 years when she lived with me. She was in
>>the
>>nursing home for another 5-1/2 years, and then I was her advocate and
>>"responsible person." It was obvious that patients who had someone to
>>speak
>>on their behalf got better care than those who did not. Very unfair, but
>>true. Mother died two years ago at the age of 91.
>>
>>MaryL
>
> Most don't have funds to pay as they go, least not for very long. And
> those whose health is failing and who do have sizeable assets
> typically want to give their assets to relatives, friends, and
> institutions of their own choosing rather than spend it all on nursing
> home care. In the US by Federal Law they have three years before
> entering a nursing home to dispense their assets as they see fit and
> can hold a small savings account of like $5,000 for burial expences...
> the IRS will go back three years and if any sizable monies were
> dispenced they will need to be repaid. Having POA doesn't
> necessarilly mean you were her legal guardian. Your mother was
> fortunate (I suppose) to have survived in a nursing home for over 5
> years, and to have the funds to do so. Nursing homes are rated as to
> ones ability to care for oneself... homes for those who are not
> ambulatory and need special care can be quite costly... your mom was
> probably fairly wealthy and/or not very ill.

My mother was not wealthy at all, and she was very ill. I took care of her
in my home for 5 years, until she became completely bedridden. After that,
it was essential for her to have personnel who could turn her, bathe her,
etc., not to mention actual nursing duties. My mother had a pension from
her 32 years of teaching, and she had Social Security. The two of them
together basically covered her nursing home fees with just enough left over
for prescriptions. She had a small savings account (and I do mean *small*).
I tried to avoid dipping into that because I did not want her ever to have
to be under Medicaid--I wanted us to be able to make decisions for quality
of care. Fortunately, I was able to do that. I had to withdraw from her
savings for certain additional expenses such as some ambulance and hospital
bills, but there was a small amount left after she died, which was divided
among the three of us (my brother and sister, and myself). She was in a
nursing home where the fees were a set amount, regardless of the care
needed. That is, she did not even enter the nursing home until she was
completely bedridden, but the fees would be the same whether she was
ambulatory or in bed. That is not true for many nursing homes--I have a
friend whose mother was in a nursing home much like you described, and they
would manage to increase her fees even for the smallest change in her care.
I can guarantee that my mother received better care as a result of the
constant monitoring I did. In fact, her doctor came to me after she died
and told me that if I ever needed help, I could go to him at any time
because (he said) I "took such extraordinary care of my mother." I thought
that was a very unusual step, but he clearly recognized some of the steps I
took. Incidentally, this is not a complaint--merely a restatement that
patients who have advocates working on their behalf do receive better care.
I even became a sort of advocate for Mother's roommate because she was on
Medicaid and did not have any family. I succeeded in forcing the nursing
home staff to make a number of changes in her care and upgrade the quality
of care she received.

MaryL

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:25:56 -0700, Dan Abel > wrote:

>My uncle got nailed by this a while back. He owned a huge van, with a
>huge gas tank. We were in Idaho, where gas is cheaper, so he wanted to
>fill his tank. He got US$75 worth and the pump stopped. It would not
>give him any more gas until he completed that transaction and started a
>whole new one, from the beginning, which he did for the additional US$10
>worth of gas. I'm guessing that prices had gone up too fast for the
>station and the credit card company to up the hold amount.

That is probably more a function of the floor limit for the credit card.
I went to a local independent and the credit card companies wouldn't
authorize more than $50 per purchase - after $50 the credit card company
was on the hook for a false charge.

In article >,
Robert Klute > wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:25:56 -0700, Dan Abel > wrote:
>
> >My uncle got nailed by this a while back. He owned a huge van, with a
> >huge gas tank. We were in Idaho, where gas is cheaper, so he wanted to
> >fill his tank. He got US$75 worth and the pump stopped. It would not
> >give him any more gas until he completed that transaction and started a
> >whole new one, from the beginning, which he did for the additional US$10
> >worth of gas. I'm guessing that prices had gone up too fast for the
> >station and the credit card company to up the hold amount.
>
> That is probably more a function of the floor limit for the credit card.
> I went to a local independent and the credit card companies wouldn't
> authorize more than $50 per purchase - after $50 the credit card company
> was on the hook for a false charge.

Well, it doesn't tally with the story I read about putting the hold on.
So if I take five pairs of pants to the register of a store with a US$50
floor limit, and each pair is US$50, I can buy them all by putting each
one on a separate slip?

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

Robert Klute wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:02:15 -0500, Melba's Jammin'
> > wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Bob Muncie > wrote:
>>
>>> The gas station I primarily use, does not require a PIN on my debit
>>> card. But I don't recall elsewhere it doesn't require a pin number. But
>>> I have been using cash for the last several months at that station once
>>> I realized they charged the same $.05 per/Gal sir-charge for the debit
>>> card that they do for credit cards. That seriously peeves me because
>>> they don't add the "credit" card charge if I were to write a check off
>>> of my debit card account.
>>>
>>> Bob
>> What they're doing may not be "legal" in their agreement with the
>> credit card companies‹adding the surcharge for card use. Ask your card
>> company.
>
> If it doesn't require a PIN it is technically a 'credit card' purchase.
> If the gas station is not set up to handle PIN-based (ATM) transactions,
> the transaction is actually being routed through the merchant
> bank/credit card network. The fees associated with PIN-less
> transactions are higher than PIN-based transactions.

I don't buy that since my checking account (with debit card) is not
associated to a credit account. I also do not but that it's okay for
them to charge extra on a debit card, than if I were to write a check.

May be it just me.

But that would be stupid.

blake murphy wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:20:06 GMT, notbob wrote:
>
>> On 2009-09-23, cshenk > wrote:
>>
>>> 1)- I do not have a debit card. The bank I use wants to attach it to my
>>> checking account and the consumer protection for debit cards is
>>> non-existant.
>> Bingo!
>>
>> ....and they don't REQUIRE a pin number to work. Jes pass it to the
>> min wage clerk, who NEVER asks for ID, and shazam!, the money is gone.
>> Yeah, like I'm that stupid. I cut up the debit card my bank sent me
>> so fast, the plastic melted to the scissors.
>>
>> nb
>
> my debit card most certainly *does* require a PIN in order to process a
> transaction.
>
> your pal,
> blake

I'm guessing you did not READ my post, which has a concrete example,
where my debit card DID NOT require a PIN number to process a purchase.

Bob

Nancy2 wrote:
>
> My hack was an online order - it wasn't the website per se that got
> hacked, it was the host of the website - Network Solutions LLC. For
> 12 days, during which time I bought a new electrician's tool for my

Did you have to get a totally new debit card? I presume the site
captured your pin number? At my credit union if a branch is open a
debit card can be re-pinned within minutes. Did you lose anything from
your account? You might also check your credit union's web site for a
verified by visa logo. It adds an additional level of protection when a
card is used on-line in the form of a password.

On Sep 24, 7:06*am, brooklyn1 > wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:50:52 -0700 (PDT), "
>

> >I would assume we will continue to accept checks as a lot of older
> >people really do prefer checks, and we have a lot of nursing homes in
> >the area. But I could see us updating the system to the kind that
> >verifies funds and does it like a debit. That would allow the store to
> >accept it like a debit while the customer can still use the system
> >they understand.
>
> That's not true, age has nothing to do with how folks pay, in fact
> older folks have most of the disposable income and are more apt to pay
> using all methods.

I'm not talking about who has disposable income. I work in a grocery
store. I accept the checks from the customers. I can tell you from my
own personal experience that most of the checks come from older
customers. Even my own dad will not use a debit card. He usually pays
cash. For a large purchase, he will use a credit card. But he doesn't
even have a debit card. He doesn't want one. My mom doesn't have one
either.

Sure, there are older people paying with debit and credit cards. But
my point is that most of the checks come from older people who don't
like cards. And cancelling he check acceptance would lose those
customers. So, I doubt we will stop. We may switch to the newer system
that accepts them electronically.



>
> Believe it or not most folks still pay bills by check, credit cards,
> and with cash. *Last data I read says that only 18% of people in the
> US have internet access, so most still bank in person, by direct
> deposit, and paper withdrawals (checks). *A debit card is indeed a
> checking account. *Older folks tend to keep better track of their
> money, which is primarily why they have the most money.


This has nothing to do with the point I was making. I never said they
didn't have money or how they typically pay. Only that most checks I
accept at the grocery store come from older people.

With my small business (photography at cat, dog, and horse shows),
lots of people pay with checks because they don't always carry that
much cash with them. And that's fine with me. I can deposit a check
the same day if I want, and I don;t pay any fees to deposit a check.
Accepting a credit card means a fee and a 4 day wait before I can use
the money. So, I have nothing against checks for my small business.
Fortunately, most of my customers are regulars at events, so I have
never had to deal with a bad check.

On Sep 24, 8:03*am, blake murphy > wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:32:36 +0000 (UTC), Steve Pope wrote:
> > blake murphy > wrote:
>
> >>On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:22:38 +0000 (UTC), Steve Pope wrote:
>
> >>> I emphaatically agree with rejecting debit cards, which my
> >>> bank always tries to foise upon me at least once a year as
> >>> a replacement for the traditional ATM card. *You can't
> >>> blame them; they charge the merchants up to 2% per transaction
> >>> on the debit card. *But it has the weakest possible
> >>> consumer protection.
>
> >>you need a new bank. *mine charges me zip for each debit card transaction.
>
> > (1) You can't know what the merchants get charged; (2) there
> > is still much less consumer protection than with a credit
> > card.
>
> i don't give a shit what the merchant is charged. *you were complaining
> about what *you* were charged.
>
> your pal,
> blake


As I understood the post, the person was complaining that they were
charged for using a debit card, as they expected it to be free. The
problem is that the retailer pays a fee for both debit and credit card
transactions, so most retailers treat them the same. If the gas
station charges a fee for credit cards, I would assume they would do
the same for debit cards. The complaint seems unfounded, in my
opinion.

On Sep 24, 8:10*am, blake murphy > wrote:

> my debit card most certainly *does* require a PIN in order to process a
> transaction.
>

Rules are getting relaxed. I work in a grocery store, and recently,
they changed the system so that credit card purchases under $25 do not
require a signature. If you have a debit card with a visa logo (check
card), you can make a purchase with that card in some locations (such
as the grocery store or fast food place) without a signature and
without a pin.

I still think it is stupid to have customers swiping their own card
for credit card purchases. The checker never sees the card unless
there is a problem, so thieves can go to to store and use the card,
and never show ID or match a signature. And this isn't an issue of
lazy clerks, as they are not supposed to ask for ID. It's the store
policy, and it makes it easier for thieves.

On Sep 24, 11:25*am, Dan Abel > wrote:

> When your transaction is complete, the automated pump sends two
> transactions to your credit card company, one to cancel the hold and the
> other to simultaneously charge the amount of your actual purchase. *This
> works well, except when you are only going to get US$5 worth of gas and
> the hold puts you over your credit limit. *The transaction will be
> rejected, but I'm sure you can go inside, charge US$5 to your credit
> card, and the attendant can set the pump to give you US$5 worth of gas
> before grinding to a halt.


It doesn't always work this way. My sister would get holds from the
gas station that lasted for hours. So, she couldn't make other
purchases until the hold was gone. And anything that tried to come
through during that time would cause an overdraft. I don't know if the
gas stations here still do that as she quit using her card for gas.
And nobody else in my family uses a card for gas.

>
> Wasn't it creepy nonetheless? *It wigged me out when all these
> charges started showing up on my credit card.
>

> I'm glad it was relatively painless for you. *I don't know who stole my
> information for sure. *Creepy feeling. *
>
> nancy


I never saw the debits on my statement - they were caught before they
went through.

N.

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:28:09 -0400, Bob Muncie >
wrote:

>Robert Klute wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:02:15 -0500, Melba's Jammin'
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
>>> Bob Muncie > wrote:
>>>
>>>> The gas station I primarily use, does not require a PIN on my debit
>>>> card. But I don't recall elsewhere it doesn't require a pin number. But
>>>> I have been using cash for the last several months at that station once
>>>> I realized they charged the same $.05 per/Gal sir-charge for the debit
>>>> card that they do for credit cards. That seriously peeves me because
>>>> they don't add the "credit" card charge if I were to write a check off
>>>> of my debit card account.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>> What they're doing may not be "legal" in their agreement with the
>>> credit card companies‹adding the surcharge for card use. Ask your card
>>> company.
>>
>> If it doesn't require a PIN it is technically a 'credit card' purchase.
>> If the gas station is not set up to handle PIN-based (ATM) transactions,
>> the transaction is actually being routed through the merchant
>> bank/credit card network. The fees associated with PIN-less
>> transactions are higher than PIN-based transactions.
>
>I don't buy that since my checking account (with debit card) is not
>associated to a credit account. I also do not but that it's okay for
>them to charge extra on a debit card, than if I were to write a check.
>
>May be it just me.
>
>But that would be stupid.

When you do a PIN-less purchase with your debit card, VISA/MC is
actually handling the transaction just like a credit card charge. The
only difference is that the money is immediately debited from you
account, as opposed to the credit company extending you a loan for that
amount.

With a PIN-based transaction, the authenticity of the purchase is
established by way of the card and a secret PIN number. The odds of it
being a fraudelent transaction are extremely small - it happens but not
very often. The fees are correspondingly small.

With the PIN-less version, the credit card company is assuming the risk
associated with the weaker authentication. The cost to the credit
company is higher to cover this risk, but lower than a credit card
charge because they are not loaning any money to you.

Remember that even for checks the merchant is paying a fee to their
merchant bank to process it and they have to absorb the cost of bad
checks, the bank doesn't.

In article >,
Robert Klute > wrote:


> Yes, the gas station does put a hold on the card for an agreed upon
> amount. I should have been explicit about that, sorry. The agreed upon
> amount will depend upon the station, as will the amount you can pump.
> Large chains will sometimes take on some additional risk and allow the
> customer to pump more than the automatic hold amount.

I'm going to guess that if you own a big rig that customarily takes 100
gallons at a time, and you go to a fueling station that caters to
trucks, with the extra wide and extra tall spaces for fueling, that the
limit isn't US$70 or anything close to that.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On 2009-09-25, Dan Abel > wrote:

> I'm going to guess that if you own a big rig that customarily takes 100
> gallons at a time, and you go to a fueling station that caters to
> trucks, with the extra wide and extra tall spaces for fueling, that the
> limit isn't US$70 or anything close to that.

Not always the case. I had a std sized ford van. It had two gas
tanks, both totaling 34 gals. When gas was hitting $4 gal for reg, it
was quite easy to exceed some of these service station imposed limits.
I twice ran into $75 max limits using my credit card, despite having
more than ample funds.

nb

On Sep 25, 1:30*am, cl > wrote:
> Nancy2 wrote:
>
> > My hack was an online order - it wasn't the website per se that got
> > hacked, it was the host of the website - Network Solutions LLC. *For
> > 12 days, during which time I bought a new electrician's tool for my
>
> Did you have to get a totally new debit card? I presume the site
> captured your pin number? At *my credit union if a branch is open a
> debit card can be re-pinned within minutes. Did you lose anything from
> your account? You might also check your credit union's web site for a
> verified by visa logo. It adds an additional level of protection when a
> card is used on-line in the form of a password.

Do you know how a debit card works? It's not an ATM card. The site
doesn't ask for PIN - I've never been asked for a PIN on an online
order. If a site DID ask for one, I wouldn't continue using that
site.

I don't need lessons on how to use my credit union, thanks - although
I'm sure you meant well.

N.

Dan Abel wrote:
> In article >,
> Robert Klute > wrote:
>
>
>> Yes, the gas station does put a hold on the card for an agreed upon
>> amount. I should have been explicit about that, sorry. The agreed upon
>> amount will depend upon the station, as will the amount you can pump.
>> Large chains will sometimes take on some additional risk and allow the
>> customer to pump more than the automatic hold amount.
>
> I'm going to guess that if you own a big rig that customarily takes 100
> gallons at a time, and you go to a fueling station that caters to
> trucks, with the extra wide and extra tall spaces for fueling, that the
> limit isn't US$70 or anything close to that.
>

Family member works at a logistics company. They issue CCs to all of
their drivers and they had to explicitly have the limits raised when
fuel prices shot up.

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:05:23 -0700, Dan Abel > wrote:

>In article >,
> Robert Klute > wrote:
>
>
>> Yes, the gas station does put a hold on the card for an agreed upon
>> amount. I should have been explicit about that, sorry. The agreed upon
>> amount will depend upon the station, as will the amount you can pump.
>> Large chains will sometimes take on some additional risk and allow the
>> customer to pump more than the automatic hold amount.
>
>I'm going to guess that if you own a big rig that customarily takes 100
>gallons at a time, and you go to a fueling station that caters to
>trucks, with the extra wide and extra tall spaces for fueling, that the
>limit isn't US$70 or anything close to that.

Nope, I drive a hybrid. My wife drives a Lexus with a 16 gallon tank
that requires premium. During the last summer's price escalation,
whenever I refilled her tank, it was quite easy for me to hit the $50
limit my local independent had forced on him.

It was the result of talking to the owner of the independent station
that a found out about most of this. The solution, of course, was to
break the transaction up into two purchases; however, it was amazing how
many people got angry over this inconvenience.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:07:00 +0000 (UTC), Steve Pope wrote:

> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:32:36 +0000 (UTC), Steve Pope wrote:
>
>>> blake murphy > wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:22:38 +0000 (UTC), Steve Pope wrote:
>
>>>>> I emphaatically agree with rejecting debit cards, which my
>>>>> bank always tries to foise upon me at least once a year as
>>>>> a replacement for the traditional ATM card. You can't
>>>>> blame them; they charge the merchants up to 2% per transaction
>>>>> on the debit card. But it has the weakest possible
>>>>> consumer protection.
>
>>>>you need a new bank. mine charges me zip for each debit card transaction.
>>>>
>
>>> (1) You can't know what the merchants get charged; (2) there
>>> is still much less consumer protection than with a credit
>>> card.
>
>>i don't give a shit what the merchant is charged. you were complaining
>>about what *you* were charged.
>
> I was? Where?
>
> Steve

well, oopsie then. *someone* was complaining. maybe it was me.

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:29:59 -0400, Bob Muncie wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:20:06 GMT, notbob wrote:
>>
>>> On 2009-09-23, cshenk > wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1)- I do not have a debit card. The bank I use wants to attach it to my
>>>> checking account and the consumer protection for debit cards is
>>>> non-existant.
>>> Bingo!
>>>
>>> ....and they don't REQUIRE a pin number to work. Jes pass it to the
>>> min wage clerk, who NEVER asks for ID, and shazam!, the money is gone.
>>> Yeah, like I'm that stupid. I cut up the debit card my bank sent me
>>> so fast, the plastic melted to the scissors.
>>>
>>> nb
>>
>> my debit card most certainly *does* require a PIN in order to process a
>> transaction.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> I'm guessing you did not READ my post, which has a concrete example,
> where my debit card DID NOT require a PIN number to process a purchase.
>
> Bob

then i don't know what happened. with mine you gotta sign or enter the
PIN. i assume online purchases are handled like a credit transaction.

your pal,
blake

In article >,
George > wrote:

> Dan Abel wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Robert Klute > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Yes, the gas station does put a hold on the card for an agreed upon
> >> amount. I should have been explicit about that, sorry. The agreed upon
> >> amount will depend upon the station, as will the amount you can pump.
> >> Large chains will sometimes take on some additional risk and allow the
> >> customer to pump more than the automatic hold amount.
> >
> > I'm going to guess that if you own a big rig that customarily takes 100
> > gallons at a time, and you go to a fueling station that caters to
> > trucks, with the extra wide and extra tall spaces for fueling, that the
> > limit isn't US$70 or anything close to that.
> >
>
> Family member works at a logistics company. They issue CCs to all of
> their drivers and they had to explicitly have the limits raised when
> fuel prices shot up.

The hold is for a specific transaction. The credit limit is for a card.
This can cause problems. If you have a US$5000 credit limit and the gas
station, credit card company and pump put a US$50 hold on your account;
the pump will stop at US$50. The other problem is if you have a US$1000
credit limit, but already have an existing balance of US$980, and just
want US$5 worth of gas until you get paid the next day; if you want to
go to that same pump, your transaction may be rejected because it wants
to put a US$50 hold on your card and that exceeds your credit limit.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

Nancy2 wrote:
> On Sep 25, 1:30 am, cl > wrote:
> Do you know how a debit card works? It's not an ATM card. The site
> doesn't ask for PIN - I've never been asked for a PIN on an online
> order. If a site DID ask for one, I wouldn't continue using that
> site.

I have never used a debit card online so I do not know if they ask for a
pin or not. I will never use a debit card online anyone who does is
stump stupid. You are wrong a debit card is an ATM card as it draws
money directly from an account just like an ATM card does.

> I don't need lessons on how to use my credit union, thanks - although
> I'm sure you meant well.

Whatever.

Nancy2 wrote:

> I never saw the debits on my statement - they were caught before they
> went through.

You were lucky there. They were caught because someone noticed them or
something flagged them as an abnormal spending pattern. This does not
always happen. If it did not happen the transactions would have went
through, and you would have lost money right out of your account.
Getting the money back is not easy and sometimes never happens. Which is
why smart people do not use debit cards on line.

In article >,
cl > wrote:

> Nancy2 wrote:
> > On Sep 25, 1:30 am, cl > wrote:
> > Do you know how a debit card works? It's not an ATM card. The site
> > doesn't ask for PIN - I've never been asked for a PIN on an online
> > order. If a site DID ask for one, I wouldn't continue using that
> > site.
>
> I have never used a debit card online so I do not know if they ask for a
> pin or not. I will never use a debit card online anyone who does is
> stump stupid. You are wrong a debit card is an ATM card as it draws
> money directly from an account just like an ATM card does.

Perhaps different places have different ways of doing things, and even
different laws. Which country do you live in?

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

"cl" > wrote in message
...
> Nancy2 wrote:
>
>> I never saw the debits on my statement - they were caught before they
>> went through.
>
> You were lucky there. They were caught because someone noticed them or
> something flagged them as an abnormal spending pattern. This does not
> always happen. If it did not happen the transactions would have went
> through, and you would have lost money right out of your account. Getting
> the money back is not easy and sometimes never happens. Which is why smart
> people do not use debit cards on line.

Visa debit card transactions are protected against fraud the same way Visa
credit cards are.

Jinx

"cl" > wrote in message
...
> Nancy2 wrote:
>> On Sep 25, 1:30 am, cl > wrote:
>> Do you know how a debit card works? It's not an ATM card. The site
>> doesn't ask for PIN - I've never been asked for a PIN on an online
>> order. If a site DID ask for one, I wouldn't continue using that
>> site.
>
> I have never used a debit card online so I do not know if they ask for a
> pin or not. I will never use a debit card online anyone who does is stump
> stupid. You are wrong a debit card is an ATM card as it draws money
> directly from an account just like an ATM card does.
>
>> I don't need lessons on how to use my credit union, thanks - although
>> I'm sure you meant well.
>
> Whatever.

Debit card transactions online are exactly the same as credit card. You do
not *ever* have to provide or enter a PIN. The 3 digit security code on the
back, yes -- same as any credit card. Yes, debit cards also function as ATM
cards, yes the money comes out of your account just like an ATM, but they
are not the same as ATM cards. Nancy is correct. And I will reiterate,
Visa backed debit cards are just as safe online as a visa credit card.
Sure, the money comes out instantaneously, which can be a burden, but you
*will* get your money back when you contest the charge with your bank. It's
not the free-for-all you are imagining it to be.

Jinx

Jinx Minx wrote:


> Debit card transactions online are exactly the same as credit card.
> You do not ever have to provide or enter a PIN. The 3 digit security
> code on the back, yes -- same as any credit card. Yes, debit cards
> also function as ATM cards, yes the money comes out of your account
> just like an ATM, but they are not the same as ATM cards. Nancy is
> correct. And I will reiterate, Visa backed debit cards are just as
> safe online as a visa credit card. Sure, the money comes out
> instantaneously, which can be a burden, but you will get your money
> back when you contest the charge with your bank.

After your account has been drained and your checks have bounced,
leaving a huge mess to clean up.

When you contest a charge with a credit card, they're the one that's
stuck without the money. With a debit card, YOU are.

There is no good reason to use debit cards unless you do not have the
discipline to pay off credit cards on time.



Brian

--
Day 236 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project

"Default User" > wrote
>
> There is no good reason to use debit cards unless you do not have the
> discipline to pay off credit cards on time.

That is just stupid. I've used debit cards (several of them, six at the
moment) for years with no problem at all.

"Gregory Morrow" > wrote in message
m...
>
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,3717069.story
>
>
>
> Grocery stores taking check use off shoppers' lists
>
> In a cost-cutting move, Whole Foods may emulate Fresh & Easy in accepting
> only cash and credit and debit cards at checkout.
>
> By Jerry Hirsch
>
> September 21, 2009
>
> "Long before banks started locating branches inside supermarkets, grocery
> stores acted as informal financial establishments, cashing payroll checks
> and personal checks to provide ready cash for their customers. That's
> starting to change.
>
> Whole Foods Market Inc. is considering banning the use of personal checks
> at
> its stores and this month stopped accepting checks at two stores in Los
> Angeles County and one in Arizona as a test.
>
> Fresh & Easy Neighborhood Market, the California division of British
> retailing giant Tesco, won't take personal checks at any of the 70 stores
> it
> operates in California.
>
> Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times
>


Regarding the question of how long it takes for a cash transaction versus
writing a check (the topic of several messages in this thread)...I stood in
line behind a lady today who paid a $8.09 bill in cash. She dug for several
minutes in her *very large* purse until she finally found exactly 9 cents to
go with her $10 bill. I could have written three or four checks in the
amount of time it took her to find the exact change she wanted.
Fortunately, I wasn't in a hurry.

MaryL

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 19:55:31 -0400, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
>"Default User" > wrote
>>
>> There is no good reason to use debit cards unless you do not have the
>> discipline to pay off credit cards on time.

Credit cards are good when they give cash back.
>
>That is just stupid. I've used debit cards (several of them, six at the
>moment) for years with no problem at all.
>
SIX *debit* cards????????? Holy Cow! Why? I don't even use six
credit cards.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 2009-09-27, sf > wrote:

> SIX *debit* cards????????? Holy Cow! Why? I don't even use six
> credit cards.

My mom had six credit cards, but she was suffering first stage
dementia.

nb

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 23:40:30 -0500, MaryL wrote:

> "Gregory Morrow" > wrote in message
> m...
>>
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,3717069.story
>>
>>
>>
>> Grocery stores taking check use off shoppers' lists
>>
>> In a cost-cutting move, Whole Foods may emulate Fresh & Easy in accepting
>> only cash and credit and debit cards at checkout.
>>
>> By Jerry Hirsch
>>
>> September 21, 2009
>>
>> "Long before banks started locating branches inside supermarkets, grocery
>> stores acted as informal financial establishments, cashing payroll checks
>> and personal checks to provide ready cash for their customers. That's
>> starting to change.
>>
>> Whole Foods Market Inc. is considering banning the use of personal checks
>> at
>> its stores and this month stopped accepting checks at two stores in Los
>> Angeles County and one in Arizona as a test.
>>
>> Fresh & Easy Neighborhood Market, the California division of British
>> retailing giant Tesco, won't take personal checks at any of the 70 stores
>> it
>> operates in California.
>>
>> Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times
>>
>
> Regarding the question of how long it takes for a cash transaction versus
> writing a check (the topic of several messages in this thread)...I stood in
> line behind a lady today who paid a $8.09 bill in cash. She dug for several
> minutes in her *very large* purse until she finally found exactly 9 cents to
> go with her $10 bill. I could have written three or four checks in the
> amount of time it took her to find the exact change she wanted.
> Fortunately, I wasn't in a hurry.
>
> MaryL

exactly. i don't think the method really matters if you're dealing with
poky people.

your pal,
blake

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
>
> exactly. i don't think the method really matters if you're dealing with
> poky people.
>

This morning we went to a local farm store. One lady wanted her items
weighed and costed before he made her decision. Small tomato was 34¢. small
cucumber was 18¢, etc. This was not a case of having to be sure she had
enough money as she paid with a $10 bill on the less than a dollar bag of
produce.

sf wrote:

> >"Default User" > wrote
> > >
> >> There is no good reason to use debit cards unless you do not have
> the >> discipline to pay off credit cards on time.
>
> Credit cards are good when they give cash back.

Yep, plus safer than debit cards, as I mentioned before. Discover (my
goto card for many years) has been having cashback bonus periods. The
quarter ending this month was 5% at gas stations (and some other things
I don't use and don't remember). Next period is grocery stores, even
better.



Brian

--
Day 237 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project

notbob wrote:

> On 2009-09-27, sf > wrote:
>
> > SIX debit cards????????? Holy Cow! Why? I don't even use six
> > credit cards.
>
> My mom had six credit cards, but she was suffering first stage
> dementia.

I have lots of credit cards, but only two active ones. I mainly use
Discover, but there are still some places that don't take it. I also
have a Master Card. There's no reason to close out credit cards you
don't use, in fact it can hurt your FICO score.



Brian

--
Day 237 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:14:28 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>
>"blake murphy" > wrote in message
>>
>> exactly. i don't think the method really matters if you're dealing with
>> poky people.
>>
>
>This morning we went to a local farm store. One lady wanted her items
>weighed and costed before he made her decision. Small tomato was 34¢. small
>cucumber was 18¢, etc. This was not a case of having to be sure she had
>enough money as she paid with a $10 bill on the less than a dollar bag of
>produce.
>

Last I looked only pickling cukes sold by weight, kirbys were about a
buck a pound... regular salad cukes cost more than a dollar each, and
not all that good, was a poor season. For 18¢ it musta been a very
tiny kirby. And tomatoes too are all well over a dollar a pound, a
tiny container of grape tomatoes cost $2.49... same for those on the
stem, and a small container of cherry tomatoes too. I think for 34¢
all I'd get is a slice of tomato. So for 52¢ she's got a great salad!
LOL

I don't think I can make a decent salad for four for under $10, in
fact I know I can't... not even if I have a good crop of home grown
veggies, because those can easily cost triple store bought... anyone
tells you that a garden saves money never tried... I can get much
fresher but at a much higher cost.

Sm. head iceberg - $1.99
Sm. head looseleaf - $1.69
Bell pepper, one ea. grn/red - $3
Cuke - one/$1
Celery/sliced - 3 stalks/30¢
Carrot curls - 1 med. 10¢
Grape tomatoes - 1 cont./$2.49
Scallions - 0ne bunch/89¢
Garbanzos - 1 can/$1.19
Parsley - home grown/free
Total - $12.65
No fancy schmancy ingredients, and don't even have dressing yet...
1 cup of homemade vinaigrette/$1~~ probably much more with good olive
oil, fancy wine vinegar, and quality herbs/spices.
Now I'm up to $13.65... and typically I'd grate in like a cup of good
parm, dice in a cup of pepperoni/genoa salami, and a cup of decent
cheese... perhaps a half dozen hard cooked eggs, sliced... that'll add
at least another $5... probably much more, and if I toss in a bunch of
good olives. Add a decent loaf of bread ($4), a stick of butter
(75¢). Got a pretty good lunch serves four for a bit over $5 each.
But now we need beverages, can easily double the cost.

On 27 Sep 2009 17:21:53 GMT, "Default User" >
wrote:

>sf wrote:
>
>> >"Default User" > wrote
>> > >
>> >> There is no good reason to use debit cards unless you do not have
>> the discipline to pay off credit cards on time.
>>
>> Credit cards are good when they give cash back.
>
>Yep,

Not if you run a balance and pay interest... then you can shove yer
cash back where the sun don't shine... practically no one pays their
credit card balance each month. And I can't say how many times I've
been on line behind some low IQer who was paying with a debit card and
couldn't figure out whether to put back the potato chips or the corn
chips. Debit card accounts are in fact checking accounts... the low
IQers use debit cards not because they don't want to write a check,
they use debit cards because they can't write, and they certainly are
incapable of basic math.

I mostly pay with cash (green money), gets the checkout person all
flustered, they can't count cash, especially can't give change, about
half the time the checker gives me my change and asks me if that's
right. duh

"brooklyn1" wrote

>>weighed and costed before he made her decision. Small tomato was 34¢.
>>small
>>cucumber was 18¢, etc. This was not a case of having to be sure she had
>>enough money as she paid with a $10 bill on the less than a dollar bag of
>>produce.

> Last I looked only pickling cukes sold by weight, kirbys were about a
> buck a pound... regular salad cukes cost more than a dollar each, and
> not all that good, was a poor season. For 18¢ it musta been a very

*sigh* I kniw your area is exensive but it's not that bad.

> I don't think I can make a decent salad for four for under $10, in
> fact I know I can't... not even if I have a good crop of home grown
> veggies, because those can easily cost triple store bought... anyone
> tells you that a garden saves money never tried... I can get much
> fresher but at a much higher cost.

You must be having some issues. I spend 5$ in seed, another 5 in fresh
soils, and possibly 5 in fertilizers.

> Sm. head iceberg - $1.99
> Sm. head looseleaf - $1.69

Free here

> Bell pepper, one ea. grn/red - $3

Free here and they dont cost more than .89lb in stores

> Cuke - one/$1

Need some? The 3 plants are taking over the yard. Tomatoes too.

I can make your salad, even with store bought for 5$

Using just my own garden, I'd use chives and green onions, bell peppers and
bannana peppers, butter and head lettuce, cucumbers and fresh yellow squash,
tomatoes.

I can not fathom why you can't grow a garden for less than cost at grocery.
You seem to want to high tech it or something.

In article >,
"cshenk" > wrote:

> "brooklyn1" wrote

> > I don't think I can make a decent salad for four for under $10, in
> > fact I know I can't... not even if I have a good crop of home grown
> > veggies, because those can easily cost triple store bought... anyone
> > tells you that a garden saves money never tried... I can get much
> > fresher but at a much higher cost.

> I can not fathom why you can't grow a garden for less than cost at grocery.
> You seem to want to high tech it or something.

Sheldon has not one, but two tractors. He uses them for other things
besides gardening, though.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

Dan Abel wrote:
> In article >,
> "cshenk" > wrote:
>
>> "brooklyn1" wrote
>
>>> I don't think I can make a decent salad for four for under $10, in
>>> fact I know I can't... not even if I have a good crop of home grown
>>> veggies, because those can easily cost triple store bought... anyone
>>> tells you that a garden saves money never tried... I can get much
>>> fresher but at a much higher cost.
>
>> I can not fathom why you can't grow a garden for less than cost at grocery.
>> You seem to want to high tech it or something.
>
> Sheldon has not one, but two tractors. He uses them for other things
> besides gardening, though.
>


Drag racing?

gliria p

"Dan Abel" wrote
> "cshenk" wrote:
>> "brooklyn1" wrote

>> > I don't think I can make a decent salad for four for under $10, in
>> > fact I know I can't... not even if I have a good crop of home grown

>> I can not fathom why you can't grow a garden for less than cost at
>> grocery.
>> You seem to want to high tech it or something.

> Sheldon has not one, but two tractors. He uses them for other things
> besides gardening, though.

Ok, but i can do this with 8 plastic planters (most are 6 ft long, 11 inch
deep and 8 inch wide). Cost of seed, annual refresh of some of the soil,
and a bit of fertilizer.

I do it for fun, but i dont get that it costs more. He must be doing
something wrong.