I am making 2 * 5 gallon batches of Dried Elderberry/Frozen Blackberry
wine, 1 is oaked, the other is not. They have just started fermenting
in respective primaries. When they go to their secondaries I plan to
combine the straining bags from the two batches to make a third 5
gallon batch as a 'second wine'. I haven't done this before and so I
have a few questions.

Firstly, can I presume that the fruit in the straining bags will
contain enough active yeast cells to inoculate the new batch or should
I plan to add fermenting wine from the first batch back in to jump
start the second? I am guessing it will be self inoculating.

Secondly - if the straining bags from the first wine are enough to
start the inoculation - would I be fine using lukewarm water rather
than hot? If not, I guess I'd be into a re-inoculation anyway. No
big deal since I could keep a little of the must from the first wine
by, in order to re-inoculate. Am I also correct that there is nothing
to gain by adding more pectic enzyme the second time around, since the
fruit has already been treated?

Thirdly should I make much allowance for volume leeched from the
fruit's remaining flesh or will most of the leechable flesh/juice be
gone?

Many thanks in advance, any other tips gained from experience in this
method would also be well received!

Jim

jim wrote:

> Firstly, can I presume that the fruit in the straining bags will
> contain enough active yeast cells to inoculate the new batch or should
> I plan to add fermenting wine from the first batch back in to jump
> start the second? I am guessing it will be self inoculating.

I have made second wines from elderberry frequently but I did it
differently. Each time I pressed the pulp I would put the pulp
in the freezer. After a while I had a whole lot of frozen pulp
to make a large secondary batch.

I then re-inoculated the pulp with a starter.

But as you are making it directly from the pulp there
will certainly be enough active yeast cells in the pulp
for starting the second wine.

> Secondly - if the straining bags from the first wine are enough to
> start the inoculation - would I be fine using lukewarm water rather
> than hot?

Using hot water will kill the living yeast cells.
So use water having a temperature of max 25 degrees celsius.

> If not, I guess I'd be into a re-inoculation anyway. No
> big deal since I could keep a little of the must from the first wine
> by, in order to re-inoculate. Am I also correct that there is nothing
> to gain by adding more pectic enzyme the second time around, since the
> fruit has already been treated?

I never used pectic enzymes on my seconds.

I did however just wrote a small article on my web-log
( http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/ ) that proved the use of pectic
enzymes.

However I did some more test which I will write another article on
in the near future. One of the test showed me that pectic
enzymes did not work in an active fermentation. I do have to conduct
more tests on this but for now I think therefore that adding pectic enzymes
would do nothing at this stage.

>
> Thirdly should I make much allowance for volume leeched from the
> fruit's remaining flesh or will most of the leechable flesh/juice be
> gone?

Most will be gone in the first batch.
There will be a lot less sediment from lees.
>
> Many thanks in advance, any other tips gained from experience in this
> method would also be well received!
>
> Jim

I used a one on one mix. So one liter water for 1 kilo pulp.
But then I used pure elderberry pulp. In most books it is
advised to use half a liter water on 1 kilo pulp.
So err on the safe side.
Make a light wine from this. Something about 11% alcohol.
The elderberries have enough tannin to make a beautiful second wine.

Monitor color and taste closely. I had my seconds pulp
fermenting for no more as 3 days. Most color and flavors
will be in the first batch. The second wine gets the left overs.

Luc

--
http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/

On Feb 2, 9:21 am, Luc Volders > wrote:
> jim wrote:
> > Firstly, can I presume that the fruit in the straining bags will
> > contain enough active yeast cells to inoculate the new batch or should
> > I plan to add fermenting wine from the first batch back in to jump
> > start the second? I am guessing it will be self inoculating.
>
> I have made second wines from elderberry frequently but I did it
> differently. Each time I pressed the pulp I would put the pulp
> in the freezer. After a while I had a whole lot of frozen pulp
> to make a large secondary batch.
>
> I then re-inoculated the pulp with a starter.
>
> But as you are making it directly from the pulp there
> will certainly be enough active yeast cells in the pulp
> for starting the second wine.
>
> > Secondly - if the straining bags from the first wine are enough to
> > start the inoculation - would I be fine using lukewarm water rather
> > than hot?
>
> Using hot water will kill the living yeast cells.
> So use water having a temperature of max 25 degrees celsius.
>
> > If not, I guess I'd be into a re-inoculation anyway. No
> > big deal since I could keep a little of the must from the first wine
> > by, in order to re-inoculate. Am I also correct that there is nothing
> > to gain by adding more pectic enzyme the second time around, since the
> > fruit has already been treated?
>
> I never used pectic enzymes on my seconds.
>
> I did however just wrote a small article on my web-log
> (http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/) that proved the use of pectic
> enzymes.
>
> However I did some more test which I will write another article on
> in the near future. One of the test showed me that pectic
> enzymes did not work in an active fermentation. I do have to conduct
> more tests on this but for now I think therefore that adding pectic enzymes
> would do nothing at this stage.
>
>
>
> > Thirdly should I make much allowance for volume leeched from the
> > fruit's remaining flesh or will most of the leechable flesh/juice be
> > gone?
>
> Most will be gone in the first batch.
> There will be a lot less sediment from lees.
>
>
>
> > Many thanks in advance, any other tips gained from experience in this
> > method would also be well received!
>
> > Jim
>
> I used a one on one mix. So one liter water for 1 kilo pulp.
> But then I used pure elderberry pulp. In most books it is
> advised to use half a liter water on 1 kilo pulp.
> So err on the safe side.
> Make a light wine from this. Something about 11% alcohol.
> The elderberries have enough tannin to make a beautiful second wine.
>
> Monitor color and taste closely. I had my seconds pulp
> fermenting for no more as 3 days. Most color and flavors
> will be in the first batch. The second wine gets the left overs.
>
> Luc
>
> --http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/

Thanks Luc, most helpful - and thanks for the pointers to your blog.
I have often enjoyed your output (most considerate to include
translations as well as the original Dutch).

If the must seems very weak from the pulp that I have I guess I might
go to plan B and make a different wine. I guess I could use the pulp
with a few more raisins and some dried sloes to make an interesting
hybrid. Otherwise I will bear these pointers in mind and make the
light elderberry/blackberry.

Kind regards, Jim

On Feb 2, 5:13 am, jim > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 9:21 am, Luc Volders > wrote:
>
>
>
> > jim wrote:
> > > Firstly, can I presume that the fruit in the straining bags will
> > > contain enough active yeast cells to inoculate the new batch or should
> > > I plan to add fermenting wine from the first batch back in to jump
> > > start the second? I am guessing it will be self inoculating.
>
> > I have made second wines from elderberry frequently but I did it
> > differently. Each time I pressed the pulp I would put the pulp
> > in the freezer. After a while I had a whole lot of frozen pulp
> > to make a large secondary batch.
>
> > I then re-inoculated the pulp with a starter.
>
> > But as you are making it directly from the pulp there
> > will certainly be enough active yeast cells in the pulp
> > for starting the second wine.
>
> > > Secondly - if the straining bags from the first wine are enough to
> > > start the inoculation - would I be fine using lukewarm water rather
> > > than hot?
>
> > Using hot water will kill the living yeast cells.
> > So use water having a temperature of max 25 degrees celsius.
>
> > > If not, I guess I'd be into a re-inoculation anyway. No
> > > big deal since I could keep a little of the must from the first wine
> > > by, in order to re-inoculate. Am I also correct that there is nothing
> > > to gain by adding more pectic enzyme the second time around, since the
> > > fruit has already been treated?
>
> > I never used pectic enzymes on my seconds.
>
> > I did however just wrote a small article on my web-log
> > (http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/) that proved the use of pectic
> > enzymes.
>
> > However I did some more test which I will write another article on
> > in the near future. One of the test showed me that pectic
> > enzymes did not work in an active fermentation. I do have to conduct
> > more tests on this but for now I think therefore that adding pectic enzymes
> > would do nothing at this stage.
>
> > > Thirdly should I make much allowance for volume leeched from the
> > > fruit's remaining flesh or will most of the leechable flesh/juice be
> > > gone?
>
> > Most will be gone in the first batch.
> > There will be a lot less sediment from lees.
>
> > > Many thanks in advance, any other tips gained from experience in this
> > > method would also be well received!
>
> > > Jim
>
> > I used a one on one mix. So one liter water for 1 kilo pulp.
> > But then I used pure elderberry pulp. In most books it is
> > advised to use half a liter water on 1 kilo pulp.
> > So err on the safe side.
> > Make a light wine from this. Something about 11% alcohol.
> > The elderberries have enough tannin to make a beautiful second wine.
>
> > Monitor color and taste closely. I had my seconds pulp
> > fermenting for no more as 3 days. Most color and flavors
> > will be in the first batch. The second wine gets the left overs.
>
> > Luc
>
> > --http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/
>
> Thanks Luc, most helpful - and thanks for the pointers to your blog.
> I have often enjoyed your output (most considerate to include
> translations as well as the original Dutch).
>
> If the must seems very weak from the pulp that I have I guess I might
> go to plan B and make a different wine. I guess I could use the pulp
> with a few more raisins and some dried sloes to make an interesting
> hybrid. Otherwise I will bear these pointers in mind and make the
> light elderberry/blackberry.
>
> Kind regards, Jim

Jim,
I have only made a second wine once and from grapes but I used 1/3 the
volume of the original must, in other words once I pressed the wine I
guess-timated the volume of skins and added water sugar and acid to
bring it up to 1/3 of the original volume. It's surprisingly
drinkable; thin, but not insipid. I expected to have 5 gallons of
vinegar stock, it's not.

Joe

On Feb 5, 10:07 am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 5:13 am, jim > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 9:21 am, Luc Volders > wrote:
>
> > > jim wrote:
> > > > Firstly, can I presume that the fruit in the straining bags will
> > > > contain enough active yeast cells to inoculate the new batch or should
> > > > I plan to add fermenting wine from the first batch back in to jump
> > > > start the second? I am guessing it will be self inoculating.
>
> > > I have made second wines from elderberry frequently but I did it
> > > differently. Each time I pressed the pulp I would put the pulp
> > > in the freezer. After a while I had a whole lot of frozen pulp
> > > to make a large secondary batch.
>
> > > I then re-inoculated the pulp with a starter.
>
> > > But as you are making it directly from the pulp there
> > > will certainly be enough active yeast cells in the pulp
> > > for starting the second wine.
>
> > > > Secondly - if the straining bags from the first wine are enough to
> > > > start the inoculation - would I be fine using lukewarm water rather
> > > > than hot?
>
> > > Using hot water will kill the living yeast cells.
> > > So use water having a temperature of max 25 degrees celsius.
>
> > > > If not, I guess I'd be into a re-inoculation anyway. No
> > > > big deal since I could keep a little of the must from the first wine
> > > > by, in order to re-inoculate. Am I also correct that there is nothing
> > > > to gain by adding more pectic enzyme the second time around, since the
> > > > fruit has already been treated?
>
> > > I never used pectic enzymes on my seconds.
>
> > > I did however just wrote a small article on my web-log
> > > (http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/) that proved the use of pectic
> > > enzymes.
>
> > > However I did some more test which I will write another article on
> > > in the near future. One of the test showed me that pectic
> > > enzymes did not work in an active fermentation. I do have to conduct
> > > more tests on this but for now I think therefore that adding pectic enzymes
> > > would do nothing at this stage.
>
> > > > Thirdly should I make much allowance for volume leeched from the
> > > > fruit's remaining flesh or will most of the leechable flesh/juice be
> > > > gone?
>
> > > Most will be gone in the first batch.
> > > There will be a lot less sediment from lees.
>
> > > > Many thanks in advance, any other tips gained from experience in this
> > > > method would also be well received!
>
> > > > Jim
>
> > > I used a one on one mix. So one liter water for 1 kilo pulp.
> > > But then I used pure elderberry pulp. In most books it is
> > > advised to use half a liter water on 1 kilo pulp.
> > > So err on the safe side.
> > > Make a light wine from this. Something about 11% alcohol.
> > > The elderberries have enough tannin to make a beautiful second wine.
>
> > > Monitor color and taste closely. I had my seconds pulp
> > > fermenting for no more as 3 days. Most color and flavors
> > > will be in the first batch. The second wine gets the left overs.
>
> > > Luc
>
> > > --http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/
>
> > Thanks Luc, most helpful - and thanks for the pointers to your blog.
> > I have often enjoyed your output (most considerate to include
> > translations as well as the original Dutch).
>
> > If the must seems very weak from the pulp that I have I guess I might
> > go to plan B and make a different wine. I guess I could use the pulp
> > with a few more raisins and some dried sloes to make an interesting
> > hybrid. Otherwise I will bear these pointers in mind and make the
> > light elderberry/blackberry.
>
> > Kind regards, Jim
>
> Jim,
> I have only made a second wine once and from grapes but I used 1/3 the
> volume of the original must, in other words once I pressed the wine I
> guess-timated the volume of skins and added water sugar and acid to
> bring it up to 1/3 of the original volume. It's surprisingly
> drinkable; thin, but not insipid. I expected to have 5 gallons of
> vinegar stock, it's not.
>
> Joe

Thanks for that Joe

By your reckoning it sounds like I will be on track to make a third 5
gallon. I will be using the pulp bags from the two 5 gallon batches I
have going at the moment, plus another 2.5KG (5.5lb) of dark berries
and forest fruits and a litre of grape concentrate to make it. I am
glad I bought the extra fruit to add in though! I can cope with it
not being as dark and rich as the first two will be, I think it will
be very good all the same.

The one thing that crosses my mind though is that you only made a
second wine once Perhaps it was a little too 'whatever' to bother
doing often when you have access to good juice and grapes?

Jim

On Feb 5, 6:29 am, jim > wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:07 am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 5:13 am, jim > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 2, 9:21 am, Luc Volders > wrote:
>
> > > > jim wrote:
> > > > > Firstly, can I presume that the fruit in the straining bags will
> > > > > contain enough active yeast cells to inoculate the new batch or should
> > > > > I plan to add fermenting wine from the first batch back in to jump
> > > > > start the second? I am guessing it will be self inoculating.
>
> > > > I have made second wines from elderberry frequently but I did it
> > > > differently. Each time I pressed the pulp I would put the pulp
> > > > in the freezer. After a while I had a whole lot of frozen pulp
> > > > to make a large secondary batch.
>
> > > > I then re-inoculated the pulp with a starter.
>
> > > > But as you are making it directly from the pulp there
> > > > will certainly be enough active yeast cells in the pulp
> > > > for starting the second wine.
>
> > > > > Secondly - if the straining bags from the first wine are enough to
> > > > > start the inoculation - would I be fine using lukewarm water rather
> > > > > than hot?
>
> > > > Using hot water will kill the living yeast cells.
> > > > So use water having a temperature of max 25 degrees celsius.
>
> > > > > If not, I guess I'd be into a re-inoculation anyway. No
> > > > > big deal since I could keep a little of the must from the first wine
> > > > > by, in order to re-inoculate. Am I also correct that there is nothing
> > > > > to gain by adding more pectic enzyme the second time around, since the
> > > > > fruit has already been treated?
>
> > > > I never used pectic enzymes on my seconds.
>
> > > > I did however just wrote a small article on my web-log
> > > > (http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/) that proved the use of pectic
> > > > enzymes.
>
> > > > However I did some more test which I will write another article on
> > > > in the near future. One of the test showed me that pectic
> > > > enzymes did not work in an active fermentation. I do have to conduct
> > > > more tests on this but for now I think therefore that adding pectic enzymes
> > > > would do nothing at this stage.
>
> > > > > Thirdly should I make much allowance for volume leeched from the
> > > > > fruit's remaining flesh or will most of the leechable flesh/juice be
> > > > > gone?
>
> > > > Most will be gone in the first batch.
> > > > There will be a lot less sediment from lees.
>
> > > > > Many thanks in advance, any other tips gained from experience in this
> > > > > method would also be well received!
>
> > > > > Jim
>
> > > > I used a one on one mix. So one liter water for 1 kilo pulp.
> > > > But then I used pure elderberry pulp. In most books it is
> > > > advised to use half a liter water on 1 kilo pulp.
> > > > So err on the safe side.
> > > > Make a light wine from this. Something about 11% alcohol.
> > > > The elderberries have enough tannin to make a beautiful second wine.
>
> > > > Monitor color and taste closely. I had my seconds pulp
> > > > fermenting for no more as 3 days. Most color and flavors
> > > > will be in the first batch. The second wine gets the left overs.
>
> > > > Luc
>
> > > > --http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com/
>
> > > Thanks Luc, most helpful - and thanks for the pointers to your blog.
> > > I have often enjoyed your output (most considerate to include
> > > translations as well as the original Dutch).
>
> > > If the must seems very weak from the pulp that I have I guess I might
> > > go to plan B and make a different wine. I guess I could use the pulp
> > > with a few more raisins and some dried sloes to make an interesting
> > > hybrid. Otherwise I will bear these pointers in mind and make the
> > > light elderberry/blackberry.
>
> > > Kind regards, Jim
>
> > Jim,
> > I have only made a second wine once and from grapes but I used 1/3 the
> > volume of the original must, in other words once I pressed the wine I
> > guess-timated the volume of skins and added water sugar and acid to
> > bring it up to 1/3 of the original volume. It's surprisingly
> > drinkable; thin, but not insipid. I expected to have 5 gallons of
> > vinegar stock, it's not.
>
> > Joe
>
> Thanks for that Joe
>
> By your reckoning it sounds like I will be on track to make a third 5
> gallon. I will be using the pulp bags from the two 5 gallon batches I
> have going at the moment, plus another 2.5KG (5.5lb) of dark berries
> and forest fruits and a litre of grape concentrate to make it. I am
> glad I bought the extra fruit to add in though! I can cope with it
> not being as dark and rich as the first two will be, I think it will
> be very good all the same.
>
> The one thing that crosses my mind though is that you only made a
> second wine once Perhaps it was a little too 'whatever' to bother
> doing often when you have access to good juice and grapes?
>
> Jim

Jim,
It was pure laziness and bad experiences with others 'second wines'.
I have tasted some pretty bad wines; I didn't know homemade wine could
actually taste like wine until I was older and my brother started
making it. We were used to homemade wine tasting like bad vinegar
mixed with cheap whiskey because that is what we were exposed to
around here.

I travel for work so sometimes i don't have time to make enough from
grapes to make a second worthwhile.

Joe