Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 01:46 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3
Default inoculation

hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention.
anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like
to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage
leaven that you use in the next stage?
another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent
(sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between
20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this
amount, why not less? and why it's important to calculate against the
weight of the final dough--with bunches of grains, it could end up
that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge.
could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for
the leaven to oppose?
i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification
for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply.
-erich


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 02:25 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 133
Default inoculation

Inoculation: seems to be an initial introduction of some new
organism(s) into something which does not have it.

I would think with sourdough, this would only apply to the first stage.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...oogle+S earch

With the amounts of starter which go into the final dough - that depends
on the effects one wants to achieve.

Different amounts give different effects.

That's why there are recipes. Follow one and chances are that the
outcome is more or less similar to the original.

With sourdough, it's hardly happening that most of the flour is in the
starter. You would need to check your recipes to confirm that.


Samartha

wrote:
hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention.
anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like
to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage
leaven that you use in the next stage?
another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent
(sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between
20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this
amount, why not less? and why it's important to calculate against the
weight of the final dough--with bunches of grains, it could end up
that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge.
could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for
the leaven to oppose?
i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification
for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply.
-erich

_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 02:21 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 556
Default inoculation


wrote in message oups.com...
i'd like to know what is meant by "inoculation?"


to inoculate means the same as to infect by admixing
infected substance with non-infected-. not everyone
would agree that it is a good word for bakers to use.
(but it is.)

another question i've had is on the amount of final
leavening agent (sponge?) added to the final dough.


let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?

kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working.







  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 02:43 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 86
Default inoculation

Dick Adams wrote:

..

let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?


kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working.


Dick I think he ask you/new_group what was the right amount of
cuture/starter to dough. Not weather his Cap_key was working.

Yes I know this question has been ask and answer many times but he is new
here.

Joe Umstead

  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 03:41 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 556
Default inoculation


"Joe Umstead" wrote in message
...
Dick Adams wrote:

let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?


kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working.


Dick I think he ask you/new_group what was the right amount of
cuture/starter to dough. Not weather his Cap_key was working.

Yes I know this question has been ask and answer many times
but he is new here.


new lower-case noobie. joe, i want you to reply directly to his
post, and see if your caps key stops working. strange -- samartha
replied directly and his keyboard did not catch it.

oh -- and what is the right amount, while you are at it?

--
dicky



  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 04:48 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 259
Default inoculation


"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

"Joe Umstead" wrote in message
...
Dick Adams wrote:

let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?


kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working.


Dick I think he ask you/new_group what was the right amount of
cuture/starter to dough. Not weather his Cap_key was working.

Yes I know this question has been ask and answer many times
but he is new here.


new lower-case noobie. joe, i want you to reply directly to his
post, and see if your caps key stops working. strange -- samartha
replied directly and his keyboard did not catch it.

oh -- and what is the right amount, while you are at it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
sfunnybutwheneverireplytoalowercasewriter,allthewo rdsjointogether!graham.


  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 05:24 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 380
Default inoculation

On 1 Feb, 01:46, wrote:
hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention.
anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like
to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage
leaven that you use in the next stage?
another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent
(sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between
20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this
amount, why not less? and why it's important to calculate against the
weight of the final dough--with bunches of grains, it could end up
that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge.
could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for
the leaven to oppose?
i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification
for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply.
-erich


Hi erich,

Well you've spotted your first convention error. These guys like to
see caps. : -)

1-65% it all doesn't matter. What does matter is how much you ferment
which bits. Some ferment the hell out of their starter and use a lot
to get 'sour' then they often spike it with yeast to get a reliable
rise. Then some use a little and ferment the hell out of their dough
and of course, all the variations in between.

Jim

  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 05:36 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 638
Default inoculation

On 1 Feb 2007 09:24:15 -0800, "TG"
wrote:

1-65% it all doesn't matter.


Hi Jim,

I would suggest that it may not "matter" if, by that, you
mean that all proportions can make good bread.

The proportion does "matter" in that different proportions
produce different results.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 06:28 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 398
Default inoculation

wrote:
hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention.
anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like
to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage
leaven that you use in the next stage?

Yes.
another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent
(sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between
20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this
amount, why not less?


and why it's important to calculate against the
weight of the final dough

It's a matter of convention.

--with bunches of grains, it could end up
that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge.
could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for
the leaven to oppose?

That's usually not a good idea, for reasons mentioned above. Also, I
find that when you have lots of grains you don't have lots of taste...
you get tasteless hippy lead bread. Not that there's anything wrong
with that if its what you wanted.
i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification
for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply.

Recipes aren't about justification. Neither are professional formulas.
Textbooks are about justifications.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
The cannoneers
With hairy ears
On wiry whiskers
Used tin shears
Until they found
Burma-Shave
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 07:17 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 556
Default inoculation


"TG" wrote in message oups.com...
Some ferment the hell out of their starter and use a lot
to get 'sour' then they often spike it with yeast to get a reliable
rise.


Oh, God help us! Are we still doing that?

That is the recipe for a sour brick, you know.

Then some use a little and ferment the hell out of their
dough ...


That seems a bit extreme.

Best advice, I think, likens feeding up a culture to starting
a bon fire.

Inoculate some batter, wait until it becomes active.
Do it again (feed it) starting with the whole amount.
Maybe do it one more time. Then with some luck
and some contrivance you'll have something you can
start some dough with.

Best advice for the batter with which to feed is 50-50
flour-water, by weight, or whatever it takes to make a
soft dough that does not collapse under its own weight.
That way you can gauge activity by height.

Now, what is the amount you will add to your final
dough? Well, if you do it my way, it will be about
ten fluid ounces, collapsed. But probably you won't.
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ions%5FRev.doc

--
Dicky





  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 08:28 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 380
Default inoculation

On 1 Feb, 17:36, Kenneth wrote:
On 1 Feb 2007 09:24:15 -0800, "TG"
wrote:

1-65% it all doesn't matter.


Hi Jim,

I would suggest that it may not "matter" if, by that, you
mean that all proportions can make good bread.

The proportion does "matter" in that different proportions
produce different results.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


Hi Kenneth,

what does matter is that you read past the first sentence. : -)

Jim

  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 08:33 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 380
Default inoculation

On 1 Feb, 19:17, "Dick Adams" wrote:
"TG" wrote in ooglegroups.com...
Some ferment the hell out of their starter and use a lot
to get 'sour' then they often spike it with yeast to get a reliable
rise.


Oh, God help us! Are we still doing that?

That is the recipe for a sour brick, you know.

Then some use a little and ferment the hell out of their
dough ...


That seems a bit extreme.


LOL, High Dicky, God no. I'm not doing either. I felt answering the
question was more important than talking about myself though. : -) And
preempt him reading other places that you need to ferment the hell out
the starter or the dough. It is "Sourdough" Dicky. : -) I suppose I
could have just talked about typing skills though.

Jim

  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 11:16 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3
Default inoculation

Thanks, All, for you replies. Very helpful.

Thanks, Samartha. You said:

Different amounts give different effects.


And Kenneth said:

The proportion does "matter" in that different proportions
produce different results.


Exactly what I'd like to research a little more. The effects of which
I believe myself to be aware, and please correct me if I'm wrong, a

LARGER = Extended Fermentation on more of the flour in the recipe
previous to it's addition to the final dough--greater conversion of
tastless starches to yummy sugars, possibly greater proportions of
lactic and/or acetic acid in the final dough.
LARGER/SMALLER = SHORTER/LONGER doubling times on the final dough.

Are any participants aware of previous discussions on this topic in
order to avoid repetitions for those who've been with this group
longer? That might serve me well, avoiding for the rest of you
needless repetition. Or perpahs it's all entertainment...

Again, Samartha:

With sourdough, it's hardly happening that most of the flour is in the
starter. You would need to check your recipes to confirm that.


Yeah. It seems odd to me, but I've been trying to develop some
recipes. For instance, I note the typical amount of leaven sponge
added to many recipes--20% to 40% of the final weight. Then, let's say
I'm adding those grains, though less than a "hippie bread" amount, at
40% of the flour in the recipe. I divide the target dough weight by
100(flour) + 65+/-(H2O) + 40(grains). I then multiply that amount by
the 100, then the 65, then the 40, to get the weights of those
ingredients. I multiply the target dough weight by .30+/- to get the
amount of leaven sponge I'll use. Since the leaven sponge I use in the
final dough is a 66% hydration, I calculate similarly the amount of
H2O and Flour I need to subract from the total amounts. Those weights
are the final additions of H2O and Flour to be added to the Leaven
sponge. I figure this way I'll know that I'm getting the right totals.
The results in the case that I've used a lot of additions--say a
raisen/pecan/date loaf, or a multi-grain near-hippie bread (most of my
bread is simple wheat/white/rye combinations where this it never an
issue)--is that the 30%+/- leaven sponge amount to the final dough
weight carries most of the flour in the recipe. So what I'd trying to
discover is whether my approach might need modification. That is, is
the leaven sponge % always calculated against the final dough weight?
If so, why? I thought the reason could be related to the force
(weight) of the dough to be countered (lifted). Maybe I'm far off the
mark. Dunno.

Dick phrases some lower-cased questions expressing capital concerns:

let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?


Exactly. For instance, I made a leaven sponge last night. It was late,
so I decided to reduce the size of my usual inoculation (feeling more
confident in using this word correctly) by more than half, hoping that
it would extend my usual four hour ferment by four more hours. This
way I can wake and begin mixing. It seemed to work out well. But what
are the effects on the final dough? What are the limits on
significance of these effects? It seems that if the cell populations
increase to double the size of the dough, regardless of whether one
uses a large amount of inoculation for a shorter time, or a small
amount of inoculation for a longer time, the final cell populations
will be the same. The difference being in the amount of time the flour
is hydrated and enzymes working.

Anyway, thanks again.

-Erich




  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 01-02-2007, 11:40 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 556
Default inoculation


wrote in message oups.com...

[ ... ]


It seems that if the cell populations increase to double the size
of the dough, regardless of whether one uses a large amount of
inoculation for a shorter time, or a small amount of inoculation
for a longer time, the final cell populations will be the same ...


Possibly it is more complicated than that. But good work
on the capitals.

--
Dicky

  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 02-02-2007, 03:26 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 133
Default inoculation

wrote:

[...]
raisen/pecan/date loaf, or a multi-grain near-hippie bread (most of my
bread is simple wheat/white/rye combinations where this it never an
issue)--is that the 30%+/- leaven sponge amount to the final dough
weight carries most of the flour in the recipe. So what I'd trying to
discover is whether my approach might need modification. That is, is
the leaven sponge % always calculated against the final dough weight?
If so, why?


Not sure where you get this from. Normally I think it would be bakers %,
but nobody writes recipes in that manner - they use cups and spoons!

All sound complicated, but why not.

Maybe that's simpler:

Use baker % - all relative to total flour.

With starter, what counts is the ratio of starter flour to total flour.

So you have a clear handle on the starter amount. 15 % or so for white,
higher for rye.

With the other stuff - ingredients, you also go by bakers % - salt maybe
1.5 - 2 %, spices 1, 2, 3 %, seeds maybe 10 - 20. If it's flour, just
use ratios, for example: 5 % full grain wheat, 65 % white, 30 % rye and
deduct the starter flour from that, when you do the final dough.

Water also goes by baker % - dough hydration.

I made this calculator because it was always the same calculation:

http://samartha.net/SD/SDcalc04.html

I thought the reason could be related to the force
(weight) of the dough to be countered (lifted). Maybe I'm far off the
mark. Dunno.


sure - that's a factor. But if you have a recipe, analyze it into ratios
and baker's %, then you can compare recipes. If one does not work well,
change what you think is off.

With your "the final cell populations will be the same" - true:
eventually decreasing and doing a lot of damage on the way there.

Samartha


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Inoculation, chemicals and water quantity calculations for a secondwine... jim Winemaking 7 11-02-2008 10:52 PM
inoculation Dick Adams Sourdough 1 09-02-2007 03:26 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:24 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2022 FoodBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Food and drink"

 

Copyright © 2017