Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-01-2005, 10:48 PM
rick etter
 
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"Scented Nectar" wrote in message
...
Moral complicity dissappears in the following
situation. The situation of no choice. The
vegan must buy food and there is not enough
veganic foods available to provide for a
healthy life. That makes no choice buy to
buy some commercial foods. It's literally
a life or death choice. Responsibility fades
away when there's no choice.


You have choices, they're just too hard for you to face.


What are these choices?

=-====================
I see your supposed claims of extensive research have proven to be false
again, killer. You've been given other choices here, you choose to ignore
those that are too inconvenient or don't fit your selfish wants. In the
end, it's kill the animals, I'll eat want I want, not just what I need.




--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.
Irony, hypocrisy, stupidity and ignorance run amok....





  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-01-2005, 10:52 PM
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
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You have choices, they're just too hard for you to face.

What are these choices?

=-====================
I see your supposed claims of extensive research have proven to be

false
again, killer. You've been given other choices here, you choose to

ignore
those that are too inconvenient or don't fit your selfish wants. In

the
end, it's kill the animals, I'll eat want I want, not just what I

need.


So what are my choices? And what are my selfish
wants? What have I ignored for inconvenience?

--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.


  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-01-2005, 10:55 PM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Scented Nectar" wrote in message
...
You have choices, they're just too hard for you to face.

What are these choices?

=-====================
I see your supposed claims of extensive research have proven to be

false
again, killer. You've been given other choices here, you choose to

ignore
those that are too inconvenient or don't fit your selfish wants. In

the
end, it's kill the animals, I'll eat want I want, not just what I

need.


So what are my choices?

==================
Again, where'd all that reseach you claimed to have done go to? Oh, yeah,
it was yet another ly of yours, wasn't it killer?


And what are my selfish
wants? What have I ignored for inconvenience?

========================
LOL You haven't ignored 'inconvenience' fool. You obsess about only those
things that are convenient, and provide your selfish wants. You really are
just too stupid...



--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.
Irony, hypocrisy, stupidity and ignorance run amok....



  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-01-2005, 10:55 PM
Rudy Canoza
 
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Claire's fat crippled Uncle Cuckold wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:55:14 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:

Claire's fat crippled Uncle Cuckold wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:40:47 GMT, Rudy Canoza

wrote:
Claire's fat crippled Uncle Cuckold wrote:

No, I didn't. I wrote

His analysis is fair enough, and I don't have a problem
with it as far as it goes. What is curious, however,
is that it also links vegetarians to the collateral
deaths caused by the production of the crops they eat.

"It" in the second sentence refers to "his analysis".

You cannot lie


I didn't.


As is usual with you,

As usual with you, I don't tolerate your deliberate lying.

**** off.

  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-01-2005, 11:35 PM
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
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again, killer. You've been given other choices here, you choose
to
ignore
those that are too inconvenient or don't fit your selfish wants.

In

The above is where you say I ignore those that
are too inconvenient.

So what are my choices?

==================
Again, where'd all that reseach you claimed to have done go to? Oh,

yeah,
it was yet another ly of yours, wasn't it killer?


No answer I notice

And what are my selfish
wants? What have I ignored for inconvenience?

========================
LOL You haven't ignored 'inconvenience' fool. You obsess about only

those
things that are convenient, and provide your selfish wants. You

really are
just too stupid...


See the above re inconvenience. No answer,
I notice.




--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.




  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 12:16 AM
Dutch
 
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"Scented Nectar" wrote

The only other choice (assuming one
can't afford to homestead) is death
from starvation. That can't possibly
be seen as a viable choice! Surely
you must agree.


What you have is a morality of convenience.


Do you feel life is a convenience?


Life in the city near a supermarket, in your comfy flat, near the job you
know, with cable TV and internet, is a life based on convenience.


  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 12:17 AM
Dutch
 
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Default

"Scented Nectar" wrote

Moral complicity dissappears in the following
situation. The situation of no choice. The
vegan must buy food and there is not enough
veganic foods available to provide for a
healthy life. That makes no choice buy to
buy some commercial foods. It's literally
a life or death choice. Responsibility fades
away when there's no choice.


You have choices, they're just too hard for you to face.


What are these choices?


Stop paying people to produce food for you in ways over which you have no
knowledge or control.


  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 12:19 AM
Dutch
 
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Default


"Derek" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:36:32 -0800, "Dutch" wrote:
"Derek" wrote

Ipse dixit and false. Show where Matheny's article links
vegetarianism to the collateral deaths associated in crop
production,


If consuming meat links the consumer to the deaths in meat production, and
I
agree it does, then consuming rice links the consumer to the deaths in
rice
production.


No. It only links the consumer the death of his rice.
Collateral deaths are contingent to the production
of rice, not antecedent to it.


There is no meaningful difference.


  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 12:26 AM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Scented Nectar" wrote in message
...
again, killer. You've been given other choices here, you choose

to
ignore
those that are too inconvenient or don't fit your selfish wants.

In

The above is where you say I ignore those that
are too inconvenient.

=================
Yes, too bad you can't read for comprehension...



So what are my choices?

==================
Again, where'd all that reseach you claimed to have done go to? Oh,

yeah,
it was yet another ly of yours, wasn't it killer?


No answer I notice

==================
It's been discussed. You're too lazy, stupid or ignorant to care.



And what are my selfish
wants? What have I ignored for inconvenience?

========================
LOL You haven't ignored 'inconvenience' fool. You obsess about only

those
things that are convenient, and provide your selfish wants. You

really are
just too stupid...


See the above re inconvenience. No answer,
I notice.

=====================
You didn't ask anything that made sense, fool. Try reading for
comprehension. To "ignore those that are too inconvenient" is not the same
as ignoring the inconveninet fool.





--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.
Irony, hypocrisy, stupidity and ignorance run amok....





  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 01:02 AM
Rudy Canoza
 
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Scented Nectar wrote:
I presented 2, homesteading and death.
I forgot about getting a farmer to grow
veganic for one or more. Both homesteading
and hiring a farmer are not in most
people's budget, that leaves only death
or buying commercial. Have I left
anything out? (keep in mind that eating
meat is not an option, nor is it 0 death)


Let me ask you a question: what would you do if the only two

options
were
eating meat and death? Just curious...


I'd have to break down and eat the meat,
which I consider unhealthy but healthier
than starving. That's a last resort to me.
As long as veg food is available, that's
what I'll choose. Even when shown low
deaths meats, which are rare (no pun)
enough to NOT be able to supply all
meat eaters, I will still choose a veg
food. Some veg foods are 0 death,


No vegetarian MEAL you've ever eaten was zero-death.

but meats always have at least 1.
Anyway, it's just healthier to not eat
meat.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.




  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 01:21 AM
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What you have is a morality of convenience.

Do you feel life is a convenience?


Life in the city near a supermarket, in your comfy flat, near the job

you
know, with cable TV and internet, is a life based on convenience.


And that's a moral thing to you?


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.



  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 01:28 AM
Ron
 
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In article , "Dutch"
wrote:

"Derek" wrote

Ipse dixit and false. Show where Matheny's article links
vegetarianism to the collateral deaths associated in crop
production,


If consuming meat links the consumer to the deaths in meat production, and I
agree it does, then consuming rice links the consumer to the deaths in rice
production.


Links, or creating causal relationships is also known as the logical
fallacy of insignificant cause.
  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 01:42 AM
Ron
 
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Default

In article ,
Derek wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:51:02 -0500, Ron wrote:

In article ,
Derek wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:27:59 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote:

Then forced complicity

There is no such thing.

Forced complicity exists, and if I were to threaten
you and your family with death by starvation, you'd
be forced to comply with the truth of this sentence.


We disagree, Derek. The choice to comply is still a choice.


Then, if I were to bend your arm up your back in
a half Nelson, you would have the choice not to
comply and stand with your arm up your back? A
person can be forced to comply with brute force
and coercion if applied firmly enough.


Logical fallacy of a false dilemma.

I have the choice of fighting back. I have the choice of avoiding the
situation. I have choice of enduring your actions, risking a broken arm
and seeing you prosecuted for assault. I have the option of matching
your force to free myself. I have the option of escalating my forcing to
counter act your force. I have the option of calling out for help. I
also have legal options and illegal options to counter your act of
aggression such carrying a knife, gun, pepper spray. I have the option
of disabling you by attacking your kneecap, striking your nose with an
upward thrust, gouging your eyes, or crushing your testicles.

It is choice
that would certainly have a negative or unwanted consequence, but the
choice still remains. Unfortunately, our culture allows the individual
to get caught up in the "he made me do it" mentality. It is this
mentality that allows people to be manipulated. it is a remnant from
religion to inspire guilt and control.

  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 01:47 AM
Rudy Canoza
 
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Ron wrote:
In article ,
Derek wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:51:02 -0500, Ron wrote:

In article ,
Derek wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:27:59 GMT, Rudy Canoza

wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote:

Then forced complicity

There is no such thing.

Forced complicity exists, and if I were to threaten
you and your family with death by starvation, you'd
be forced to comply with the truth of this sentence.

We disagree, Derek. The choice to comply is still a choice.


Then, if I were to bend your arm up your back in
a half Nelson, you would have the choice not to
comply and stand with your arm up your back? A
person can be forced to comply with brute force
and coercion if applied firmly enough.


Logical fallacy of a false dilemma.


No, not a fallacy; not a dilemma at all.

A dilemma is NOT simply an unpleasant choice, or a choice that you feel
is unfairly constrained to a limited number of options. A dilemma is a
choice between two PROPOSITIONS that are purported to be exhaustive of
the truth.

You continually misidentify dilemmas, and all your claims of "false
dilemma", every single one so far, have been wrong, because you have
not identified logical dilemmas at all.

  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-01-2005, 01:49 AM
Ron
 
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Default

In article ,
Rudy Canoza wrote:

C. James Strutz wrote:

"Scented Nectar" wrote in message
...


I presented 2, homesteading and death.
I forgot about getting a farmer to grow
veganic for one or more. Both homesteading
and hiring a farmer are not in most
people's budget, that leaves only death
or buying commercial. Have I left
anything out? (keep in mind that eating
meat is not an option, nor is it 0 death)



Let me ask you a question: what would you do if the only two options were
eating meat and death? Just curious...


She'd eat the meat. I think she's already said that.

Homo felcher Ron would just shriek, "False dilemma!
False dilemma!" and flounce away.


In the real world, such a dilemma does not exist. Therefore it is a
false dilemma. That you continue to compound this with a logical fallacy
of insignificant cause is noted.


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