In article >, ASmith1946
> wrote:

> >
> >I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did
> >see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured
> >servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week.
> >
> >--
>
>
> I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts for
> eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a primary source
> on
> this story either...
>
> Andy Smith
I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon
and oysters.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Lazarus Cooke wrote:
>
> In article >, ASmith1946
> > wrote:
>
> > >
> > >I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did
> > >see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured
> > >servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week.
> > >
> > >--
> >
> >
> > I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts for
> > eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a primary source
> > on
> > this story either...
> >
> > Andy Smith
> I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon
> and oysters.
>
> Lazarus
>
> --
> Remover the rock from the email address

Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle
ages are fairly well documented. Lucky buggers! In my day we could
barely afford a cheese butty and pint of Newcastle Brown Ale at 11p a
pint in the college bar! Salmon & oysters! Cor!
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

In article >, Kate Dicey
> wrote:

> Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle
> ages are fairly well documented.

Hi Kate. Are you sure? I've always heard it but I'm filled with a
horrible fear that it might be one of those stories....

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Lazarus Cooke wrote:
>
> In article >, Kate Dicey
> > wrote:
>
> > Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle
> > ages are fairly well documented.
>
> Hi Kate. Are you sure? I've always heard it but I'm filled with a
> horrible fear that it might be one of those stories....
>
> L
>
> --
> Remover the rock from the email address

Both my long departed dad and Big Sis read history at university. First
time I heard about this was when they were discussing it. I can't
remember the references after 20+ years, but you need to dig into court
rolls and the like and see who was brought before the courts for riotous
behaviour and assault. Oxford and Cambridge both suffered, and some of
the older colleges have accounts in their documents, I think.

My grandmother lived next door to one of the girls who gutted the
herring catch in the little coastal fishing villages of Fife in the
early 20th C, and she used to tell tales of having fish fights, when
there were so many herring everyone got sick of them and used them as
ammunition in local disputes! YEKK! Tired ole herring STINKS!

I wish I had time to look into this more fully, but I'm just taking a
break from bridesmaid outfits and a sewing machine on the fritz!
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

"Kate Dicey" > wrote in message
-

> early 20th C, and she used to tell tales of having fish fights, when
> there were so many herring everyone got sick of them and used them as
> ammunition in local disputes! YEKK! Tired ole herring STINKS!

"Fish fights"... The idea is entrancing. I see a movie: "Gangs of Fife".

Could "fish fights" be the antecedents of today's "food fights"?

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://kanyak.com

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 22:41:24 +0200, "Opinicus" >
wrote:


>"Fish fights"... The idea is entrancing. I see a movie: "Gangs of Fife".
>
>Could "fish fights" be the antecedents of today's "food fights"?

I suspect that food fights go back a long, long way. There's a great
passage in Castiglione's "The Courtier":

Many times they shoulder one another downe the stayers, and hurle
billettes and brickes, one at an others head. They hurle handfulles of
dust in mens eyes. Thei cast horse and man into ditches, or downe on
the side of some hill. Then at table, potage, sauce, gelies, and what
ever commeth to hande, into the face it goith. And afterwarde laughe:
and whoso can doe most of these trickes, he counteth himselfe the best
and galantest Courtyer, and supposeth that he hath wonne great glorye.

Baldassare Castiglione, "Il Cortegiano", 1528
Translation by Sir Thomas Hoby (1561)
http://www.uoregon.edu/~rbear/courtier/courtier2.html


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

>My grandmother lived next door to one of the girls who gutted the
>herring catch in the little coastal fishing villages of Fife in the
>early 20th C, and she used to tell tales of having fish fights, when
>there were so many herring everyone got sick of them and used them as
>ammunition in local disputes! YEKK! Tired ole herring STINKS!

Herring are money. People in a fishing village don't get sick of their
primary source of income. But there is at least one well-known case
from the period of fish being thrown as weapons, simply because they
were the handiest available - look up the recent book on the Eyemouth
disaster. There had been an acrimonious dispute about the Church of
Scotland collecting local taxes for its ministry, when most of the
locals didn't belong to it (they were typically Brethren). So the
Kirk's minister and his bailiffs got bombarded with fish when they
turned up to exercise their authority, and in that situation you're
hardly likely to make sure that every fish you biff at the opposition
is within its sell-by date.

We used to drop spleens in each other's boots or hurl rectums across
the factory floor when I worked in a New Zealand slaughterhouse. The
sensation of a lukewarm rectum wrapping itself round your neck like a
scarf is one you don't forget in a hurry.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

>>>> I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did
>>>> see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured
>>>> servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week.
>>> I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts
>>> for eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a
>>> primary source on this story either...
>> I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon
>> and oysters.
> Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle
> ages are fairly well documented.

Show us the documentation, then.

I have read some primary sources on student riots in the Middle Ages
and I don't believe you.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

bogus address muttered....

>
>>>>> I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I
>>>>> did see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's
>>>>> indentured servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more
>>>>> than X days a week.
>>>> I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing
>>>> contracts for eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall
>>>> seeing a primary source on this story either...
>>> I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both
>>> salmon and oysters.
>> Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle
>> ages are fairly well documented.
>
> Show us the documentation, then.
>
> I have read some primary sources on student riots in the Middle Ages
> and I don't believe you.
>

Absent "evidence", the anecdotal accounts of discord among the small
servant class of New England over too much lobster and/or salmon and
similar tales from the UK remain quite credible. A semester or two in the
dormitories of my youth provide all the confirmation of "student reaction"
required.

Why, in 1957, the tuna and noodles in the Wll Rice College Commons had the
students marching on the President's home demanding relief...

The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the grounds
of "lack of evidence".

I find the tales as credible as my sincere belief that many/most/some of
mine and thine ancestry were adept at picking their noses (although little
documentary or graphic evidence of same is available).

I used to be fascinated by constant references to "pemmican" as a foodstuff
enjoyed by Native Americans. After actually trying some, I better
understood that AmerIndians (along with every one else) ate what was
available and like students, sailors and most others, complained loudly and
often about it. I suspect that boiled lobster gets old after daily doses
for a few weeks. I'd like to try, but will admit to once having tired of
beefsteak after two meals a day for 10 days.

Enough to make me desperately desire a bowl of grits, even without
butter....

.....and I've known merchant mariners, sailors and officers, who would never
eat any seafood of any sort...

TMO

In article >, Olivers
> wrote:

> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the grounds
> of "lack of evidence".

So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory
defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Lazarus Cooke muttered....

> In article >, Olivers
> > wrote:
>
>> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
>> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the
>> grounds of "lack of evidence".
>
> So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory
> defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes.
>


You realize of course that it does. It's all a matter of perspective. Why
every noon I used to have to go out on the Bridge Wing with my sextant to
wait for it to reach its zenith and pass by on the way around, thus
signifying that local Noon had arrived. Of course, meanwhile the stars are
running their predictable courses around the earth so they can arrive at
the altitude necessary for dawn's fix.

Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of groups
forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and
previous experiences and objecting to same? I suspect that an individual
raised in rural England, unlikely to have ever eaten fresh fish,
transported on a diet of salt meat and dried peas to cold new England and
forces to eat boiled salmon and lobster every day could be expected to
raise his/her voice in objection. Let's face it...caviar in your baked
potato goes well for the first week, but there comes a night when you'll
beg for bacon.

TMO

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:43:03 -0600, Olivers >
wrote:


> I suspect that an individual
>raised in rural England, unlikely to have ever eaten fresh fish,
>transported on a diet of salt meat and dried peas to cold new England and
>forces to eat boiled salmon and lobster every day could be expected to
>raise his/her voice in objection.

And how much more so when it's badly cooked, as it likely was...
--
rbc: vixen Fairly harmless

Hit reply to email. But strip out the 'invalid.'
Though I'm very slow to respond.
http://www.visi.com/~cyli

In article >, Olivers
> wrote:

> Lazarus Cooke muttered....
>

> >
> > So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory
> > defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes.
> >
>
> You realize of course that it does.

I do

> Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of groups
> forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and
> previous experiences and objecting to same?

I don't necessarily disbelieve them. I just become suspicious when the
same tale (which has a moral attached) pops up all over the place, and
yet I haven't seen a primary source.

When I see a primary source that I can check, I'll believe it. Until
then, I'll stay wary.
(I don't want to start talking about WMD...)

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Olivers > nattered on
:


> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the
> grounds of "lack of evidence".

I suggest that you go look up what an "urban legend" is and how they are
propagated, no matter how false they actually are.

Bryan J. Maloney muttered....

> Olivers > nattered on
> :
>
>
>> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
>> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the
>> grounds of "lack of evidence".
>
> I suggest that you go look up what an "urban legend" is and how they are
> propagated, no matter how false they actually are.
>
>
>

Since I remain a regular reader and contributor to the a.f.u ng (That
alt.folklore.urban), the home of urban legends, I suspect I'm quite well
attuned to the credible/incredible threshold of such legends. This is a
subject which googling may open entirely new and unconsidered vistas to you
about lobsters and other delicacies for the identured staff...

Hint: The literary references alone would serve to validate the "legend".

TMO

>
> Hint: The literary references alone would serve to validate the "legend".
>
> TMO
eh?

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:44:01 +0000, Kate Dicey
> wrote:

>Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle
>ages are fairly well documented. Lucky buggers! In my day we could
>barely afford a cheese butty and pint of Newcastle Brown Ale at 11p a
>pint in the college bar! Salmon & oysters! Cor!

at least with salmon and lobsters you get very tired of it after three
days repeating it.

I remember as a child we had a visit of some directors of St.Ann paper
mill in England where the people almost shouted by joy when my mother
announced they would get some meat dish for dinner. Then they had
either had lobsters or salmon for dinner every day for two weeks when
visiting other pulp industries in Norway.

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 21:39:56 +0100, Alf Christophersen
> wrote:

>at least with salmon and lobsters you get very tired of it after three
>days repeating it.

It comes to my mind my mother telling about a terrible marriage
present. In the saummer after their wedding, they found outside the
hut a big basket with 200 lobsters. They had almost no idea about what
to do about, but had to drive home and give all neighbours some of
them, but of course did eat lobsters for several days themselves too.
This was back in 1939, so no fridge, nor freezer available at that
time except a ice block fridge which could be partly used at home.
They didn't eat lobsters for many years afterwards (many years after
war she told me)

Lazarus Cooke wrote:

>In article >, ASmith1946
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did
>>>see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured
>>>servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week.
>>>
>>>--
>
>
>>I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts for
>>eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a primary source
>>on
>>this story either...
>
>I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon
>and oysters.

I have had a first-person account of not quite the same thing, for salmon.
A mathematical colleague of mine (Stepan Orevkov, now of the Universite
Paul Sabatier) fulfilled part of his military obligations to the
then-USSR as part of a group doing geodetic surveys in the Russian
Far East (I think the Kamchatka Peninsula, but am not sure). He
told me, one evening when we were dining in Toulouse and he had
declined the salmon appetizer at our chosen restaurant, that for
about three months he had eaten (fresh-caught) salmon at every meal,
and thereafter had never yet wanted to eat it again.

Lee Rudolph

Lee Rudolph wrote:
>
> Lazarus Cooke wrote:
>
> >In article >, ASmith1946
> > wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>>I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did
> >>>see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured
> >>>servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week.
> >>>
> >>>--
> >
> >
> >>I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts for
> >>eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a primary source
> >>on
> >>this story either...
> >
> >I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon
> >and oysters.
>
> I have had a first-person account of not quite the same thing, for salmon.
> A mathematical colleague of mine (Stepan Orevkov, now of the Universite
> Paul Sabatier) fulfilled part of his military obligations to the
> then-USSR as part of a group doing geodetic surveys in the Russian
> Far East (I think the Kamchatka Peninsula, but am not sure). He
> told me, one evening when we were dining in Toulouse and he had
> declined the salmon appetizer at our chosen restaurant, that for
> about three months he had eaten (fresh-caught) salmon at every meal,
> and thereafter had never yet wanted to eat it again.
>
> Lee Rudolph

I felt much the same for over a year after working in a chicken
processing factory for my 16th summer...
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

On 4 Feb 2004 07:42:10 -0500, (Lee Rudolph) wrote:

>declined the salmon appetizer at our chosen restaurant, that for
>about three months he had eaten (fresh-caught) salmon at every meal,
>and thereafter had never yet wanted to eat it again.

reminds me about an episode back in 1971 when I visited my 2. cousin
at the farm where my grandmothers was born (they still have a quite
big part of the Kjerra-fishery in Numedalslågen, Norway) where some
guests was expected to arrive the day before I came there and they had
thawn a 18 kg piece of cured salmon for that meeting (expecting about
80 people). Since the meeting was annulled just before, they had
either to eat the salmon themselves or throw it. So I ate cured salmon
for breakfast, lunch, dinner and evening meal for four days and have
only once afterwards tried it. I was very happy when my mothers cousin
invited for a cafeteria dinner, eating meatballs and potatoes :-)