<circe @nospam.internet.look.ca> wrote in message
...
: Made bagels for the first time today and they came out of the
oven
: looking more like doughnut-store honey crullers than bagels.
:
: I had a lot of problems getting the dough to stick to itself
when
: kneading them, and joining the ends when making a long rope of
dough.
: In fact one came out of the oven looking more like a croissant
than a
: bagel!
:
: What did I do wrong? How can I avoid this in future?
:
: And one more question - next time I make them, I'd like to
double the
: recipe and freeze half. This recipe called for one envelope of
yeast
: and three cups of flour. Is it necessary to use two envelopes
of yeast
: to six cups of flour or can I get away with just one envelope?
:
: Circe
=============

Making "ropes" is part of the problem. You may find it easier to
shape pieces into balls, then flatten and then poke a hole in the
middle. That's how I do mine and they're usually pretty normal
looking bagels.

I would stick to the 1:3 ratio. If you want to double it - then
double it (2:6) and just freeze them. Bagels freeze very nicely.
--
Cyndi
<Remove a "b" to reply>

Which recipe did you use? Care to post it?
Thanks.

circe, @nospam.internet.look.ca wrote:
>
> Made bagels for the first time today and they came out of the oven
> looking more like doughnut-store honey crullers than bagels.
>
> I had a lot of problems getting the dough to stick to itself when
> kneading them, and joining the ends when making a long rope of dough.
> In fact one came out of the oven looking more like a croissant than a
> bagel!
>
> What did I do wrong? How can I avoid this in future?
>
> And one more question - next time I make them, I'd like to double the
> recipe and freeze half. This recipe called for one envelope of yeast
> and three cups of flour. Is it necessary to use two envelopes of yeast
> to six cups of flour or can I get away with just one envelope?
>
> Circe

"Phil(NM)" > wrote in message >...
> Which recipe did you use? Care to post it?
> Thanks.
>
> circe, @nospam.internet.look.ca wrote:
> >
> > Made bagels for the first time today and they came out of the oven
> > looking more like doughnut-store honey crullers than bagels.
> >
> > I had a lot of problems getting the dough to stick to itself when
> > kneading them, and joining the ends when making a long rope of dough.
> > In fact one came out of the oven looking more like a croissant than a
> > bagel!
> >
> > What did I do wrong? How can I avoid this in future?
> >
> > And one more question - next time I make them, I'd like to double the
> > recipe and freeze half. This recipe called for one envelope of yeast
> > and three cups of flour. Is it necessary to use two envelopes of yeast
> > to six cups of flour or can I get away with just one envelope?
> >
> > Circe
I think you need lots of yeast because the bagels still have to rise
AFTER you boil them. Also, I am *NOT a great baker BUT when I make
bagels, I roll the dough into a ball in my hands (like when you shape
buns) and poke ny finger through it to make the middle hole.
Lynn from Fargo
*(Baking requires measuring . . .)

il Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:05:52 -0500, circe @nospam.internet.look.ca ha
scritto:

> I used the recipe at:
> http://www.tastingmenu.com/recipes/favorites/bagels.htm but used
> ordinary water and brown sugar instead of malt syrup. I don't care for
> bagels - just a good excuse for stale bread - so these were for my
> husband who is not a bagel purist. I was upset at all the trans fats
> in store-bought bagels and having the time, decided to experiment with
> making my own. If I can ever get the forming down pat, I'll use the
> proper ingredients.
>
> When I couldn't get the ends of the ropes to stick together - that's
> what made the one croissant-shaped bagel, I did poke a hole in the
> centre instead but the dough was too dry to stick to itself and they
> still turned out lumpy. In fact one bagel I made with the poke the
> hole in the middle method still had ridges around the top outside edge
> from when I'd cut it off the dough ball. Looked as if I'd rolled a
> long cylinder about 4" in diameter then just sliced off each bagel
> individually.
>
> Must say though that they were delicious - million times better than
> store-bought ones and weren't as much work to make as I'd thought. I'd
> like to make them again if I could only improve their appearance.
>
> Circe

I've tried to make bagels and the recipe talks about making a hole
with a floured finger in the balls of dough. Then they rise nicely
and look ok. It's the boiling water that turns mine to mishapen
things. How does one avoid that?

--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:05:52 -0500, circe @nospam.internet.look.ca ha
scritto:
[snip]
> When I couldn't get the ends of the ropes to stick together - that's
> what made the one croissant-shaped bagel, I did poke a hole in the
> centre instead but the dough was too dry to stick to itself and they
> still turned out lumpy. In fact one bagel I made with the poke the
> hole in the middle method still had ridges around the top outside edge
> from when I'd cut it off the dough ball. Looked as if I'd rolled a
> long cylinder about 4" in diameter then just sliced off each bagel
> individually.
[snip]

My recipe says to roll them into balls, then poke a hole in them.
They're not meant to be slices of dough. Then rest and rise, then
boil, then bake. Then eat :-))
--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il 16 Feb 2004 11:46:44 -0800, (Lynn Gifford) ha
scritto:

> I think you need lots of yeast because the bagels still have to rise
> AFTER you boil them. Also, I am *NOT a great baker BUT when I make
> bagels, I roll the dough into a ball in my hands (like when you shape
> buns) and poke ny finger through it to make the middle hole.
> Lynn from Fargo
> *(Baking requires measuring . . .)

This is in my Better Homes and Garden's Homemade bread cookbook
c.1973.

4 1/4 to 4 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
2 packages active dry yeast (any one know what those weigh?)
1 1/2 cups warm water (110°)- °F I guess
3 tablespoons sugar
1 tablespoon salt

In large mixer bowl combine 11/2 cups flour and the yeast.

Combine water sugar and salt. Add to dry mixture in mixer bowl.

Beat at low speed 1/2 minute. (...I wish - I use even slower hand and
spoon)

Beat 3 mins. at high speed (.. ya gotta be kidding!)

By hand stir in the rest of the flour to make a moderately stiff
dough. (that I can do )

Turn out (yaddayadda)
Knead till smooth and elastic (8-10 mins)

Cover, let rest 15 mins. (Is this for the dough or the baker?)

Cut into 12 portions, *shape* into smooth balls. i(my hilite)i
Punch hole in middle, enlarge hole by pulling it. Cover, let rise 20
mins
(optional - broil (grill) a bit for smooth glossy surface on an
ungreased tray)

In simmering sugared water (1 gal :1TBLspnp) boil bagels 7 mins a few
at a time. Turn once.

Drain. Place on greased baking sheet . Bake at 375° for 30 -35 mins.
Broiled (grilled) bagels, bake about 25.


Nowhere does it meantion rising after boiling. I would've thought the
yeast died on the boiling.

--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

On one of Julia Childs show, she had a baker there who nmade breads and
bagels... when they poked the center hole, they really stretched it ..
because it contracts when boiling/baking, the initial hole was the size
of the finished bagel .... then they boiled it, and it puffed up some.
They then placed them on parchment on a cookie sheet, let them rest
awhile and finally baked them. And they did double on being baked....
The secret is not boiling them, but simmering them, I guess.

Loki wrote:
>
> il 16 Feb 2004 11:46:44 -0800, (Lynn Gifford) ha
> scritto:
>
> > I think you need lots of yeast because the bagels still have to rise
> > AFTER you boil them. Also, I am *NOT a great baker BUT when I make
> > bagels, I roll the dough into a ball in my hands (like when you shape
> > buns) and poke ny finger through it to make the middle hole.
> > Lynn from Fargo
> > *(Baking requires measuring . . .)
>
> This is in my Better Homes and Garden's Homemade bread cookbook
> c.1973.
>
> 4 1/4 to 4 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
> 2 packages active dry yeast (any one know what those weigh?)
> 1 1/2 cups warm water (110°)- °F I guess
> 3 tablespoons sugar
> 1 tablespoon salt
>
> In large mixer bowl combine 11/2 cups flour and the yeast.
>
> Combine water sugar and salt. Add to dry mixture in mixer bowl.
>
> Beat at low speed 1/2 minute. (...I wish - I use even slower hand and
> spoon)
>
> Beat 3 mins. at high speed (.. ya gotta be kidding!)
>
> By hand stir in the rest of the flour to make a moderately stiff
> dough. (that I can do )
>
> Turn out (yaddayadda)
> Knead till smooth and elastic (8-10 mins)
>
> Cover, let rest 15 mins. (Is this for the dough or the baker?)
>
> Cut into 12 portions, *shape* into smooth balls. i(my hilite)i
> Punch hole in middle, enlarge hole by pulling it. Cover, let rise 20
> mins
> (optional - broil (grill) a bit for smooth glossy surface on an
> ungreased tray)
>
> In simmering sugared water (1 gal :1TBLspnp) boil bagels 7 mins a few
> at a time. Turn once.
>
> Drain. Place on greased baking sheet . Bake at 375° for 30 -35 mins.
> Broiled (grilled) bagels, bake about 25.
>
> Nowhere does it meantion rising after boiling. I would've thought the
> yeast died on the boiling.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:32:59 -0700, "Phil(NM)" ha scritto:

> On one of Julia Childs show, she had a baker there who nmade breads and
> bagels... when they poked the center hole, they really stretched it ..
> because it contracts when boiling/baking, the initial hole was the size
> of the finished bagel .... then they boiled it, and it puffed up some.
> They then placed them on parchment on a cookie sheet, let them rest
> awhile and finally baked them. And they did double on being baked....
> The secret is not boiling them, but simmering them, I guess.
eare ]

Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon
as they hit that water. I'll have to try again and observe closely.
Maybe 7 mins is too long.



--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

On 18 Feb 2004 08:54:50 +1300, "Loki" > wrote:

>il Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:32:59 -0700, "Phil(NM)" ha scritto:
>
>> On one of Julia Childs show, she had a baker there who nmade breads and
>> bagels... when they poked the center hole, they really stretched it ..
>> because it contracts when boiling/baking, the initial hole was the size
>> of the finished bagel .... then they boiled it, and it puffed up some.
>> They then placed them on parchment on a cookie sheet, let them rest
>> awhile and finally baked them. And they did double on being baked....
>> The secret is not boiling them, but simmering them, I guess.
>eare ]
>
>Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon
>as they hit that water. I'll have to try again and observe closely.
>Maybe 7 mins is too long.


You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best
for me and do not use boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you
can get before you begin. I also like to put diastatic malt into the
water.

Boron

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

> >Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon
> >as they hit that water. I'll have to try again and observe closely.
> >Maybe 7 mins is too long.
>
>
> You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best
> for me and do not use boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you
> can get before you begin. I also like to put diastatic malt into the
> water.
>
> Boron

You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear
they invent new products just to make life difficult.
--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:
>
> You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best
> for me and do not use boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you
> can get before you begin. I also like to put diastatic malt into the
> water.
>
> Boron

oops, malt. What is it anyway still. ;-)
--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

On 18 Feb 2004 14:58:24 +1300, "Loki" > wrote:

>il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:
>
>> >Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon
>> >as they hit that water. I'll have to try again and observe closely.
>> >Maybe 7 mins is too long.
>>
>>
>> You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best
>> for me and do not use boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you
>> can get before you begin. I also like to put diastatic malt into the
>> water.
>>
>> Boron
>
>You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear
>they invent new products just to make life difficult.


Well this ought to confuse you even more, then...I meant NON-diastatic
malt. It gives a shinier & browner crust.

My mind was in its usual sourdough niche...diastatic malt is added to
break down starch in dough so the yeasts can feed on the sugar.

Used 2 different ways. ND is pretty much a sweetener.

boron

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:14:01 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

> On 18 Feb 2004 14:58:24 +1300, "Loki" > wrote:
>
> >il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:
> >
> >> >Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon
> >> >as they hit that water. I'll have to try again and observe closely.
> >> >Maybe 7 mins is too long.
> >>
> >>
> >> You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best
> >> for me and do not use boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you
> >> can get before you begin. I also like to put diastatic malt into the
> >> water.
> >>
> >> Boron
> >
> >You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear
> >they invent new products just to make life difficult.
>
>
> Well this ought to confuse you even more, then...I meant NON-diastatic
> malt. It gives a shinier & browner crust.
>
> My mind was in its usual sourdough niche...diastatic malt is added to
> break down starch in dough so the yeasts can feed on the sugar.
>
> Used 2 different ways. ND is pretty much a sweetener.
>
> boron

So sugar should work ok too? I'll try that 45 secs for simmering too
(if I can get the darn stove to simmer) I'm not addicted to achieving
a brown crust, fairly laissez faire - if it tastes good that's what
counts :-))

BTW. My sister informs me that italian sour dough is not as sour as
american sourdough. (Iknow i know - use rec.food.sourdough :-))

--
Cheers,
Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

On 19 Feb 2004 09:12:45 +1300, "Loki" > wrote:

>il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:14:01 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:
>
>> On 18 Feb 2004 14:58:24 +1300, "Loki" > wrote:
>>
>> >il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:
>> >
>> >> >Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon
>> >> >as they hit that water. I'll have to try again and observe closely.
>> >> >Maybe 7 mins is too long.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best
>> >> for me and do not use boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you
>> >> can get before you begin. I also like to put diastatic malt into the
>> >> water.
>> >>
>> >> Boron
>> >
>> >You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear
>> >they invent new products just to make life difficult.
>>
>>
>> Well this ought to confuse you even more, then...I meant NON-diastatic
>> malt. It gives a shinier & browner crust.
>>
>> My mind was in its usual sourdough niche...diastatic malt is added to
>> break down starch in dough so the yeasts can feed on the sugar.
>>
>> Used 2 different ways. ND is pretty much a sweetener.
>>
>> boron
>
>So sugar should work ok too? I'll try that 45 secs for simmering too
>(if I can get the darn stove to simmer) I'm not addicted to achieving
>a brown crust, fairly laissez faire - if it tastes good that's what
>counts :-))


The NDM give a bit of flavor, too, and I have never seen sugar used as
a substitute. Have fun experimenting.


>BTW. My sister informs me that italian sour dough is not as sour as
>american sourdough. (Iknow i know - use rec.food.sourdough :-))

I have had a lot of Italian breads made with pre-ferment, poolish.
biga, etc, but none that I really think of as regular sourdough. Do
check RFS, though, as that is where the experts reside. They publish a
faq each week. You can google for it.

boron

if there's a Bruggers Bagels near you, go early some morning and watch
as they boil/simmer theirs. The vat is usually behind a special window
just so you can watch.. I think they boil for 2 or 3 minutes...


Loki wrote:
>
> il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:
>
> > >Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon
> > >as they hit that water. I'll have to try again and observe closely.
> > >Maybe 7 mins is too long.
> >
> >
> > You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best
> > for me and do not use boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you
> > can get before you begin. I also like to put diastatic malt into the
> > water.
> >
> > Boron
>
> You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear
> they invent new products just to make life difficult.
> --
> Cheers,
> Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

Lynn Gifford wrote:

> "Phil(NM)" > wrote in message >...
>
>>Which recipe did you use? Care to post it?
>>Thanks.
>>
>>circe, @nospam.internet.look.ca wrote:
>>
>>>Made bagels for the first time today and they came out of the oven
>>>looking more like doughnut-store honey crullers than bagels.
>>>
>>>I had a lot of problems getting the dough to stick to itself when
>>>kneading them, and joining the ends when making a long rope of dough.
>>>In fact one came out of the oven looking more like a croissant than a
>>>bagel!
>>>
>>>What did I do wrong? How can I avoid this in future?
>>>
>>>And one more question - next time I make them, I'd like to double the
>>>recipe and freeze half. This recipe called for one envelope of yeast
>>>and three cups of flour. Is it necessary to use two envelopes of yeast
>>>to six cups of flour or can I get away with just one envelope?
>>>
>>>Circe
>
> I think you need lots of yeast because the bagels still have to rise
> AFTER you boil them. Also, I am *NOT a great baker BUT when I make
> bagels, I roll the dough into a ball in my hands (like when you shape
> buns) and poke ny finger through it to make the middle hole.
> Lynn from Fargo
> *(Baking requires measuring . . .)

Not sure what you consider "lots" of yeast. In my case, I use one tsp
rapid for the sponge and 1/2 tsp for the dough. Seems plenty to me.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener