Thanks for all your help with the starter. I am happy with the starter
now. Great taste, good first rise, but not so good second rise after
shaping. I am making boules. After the first fermentation (about 12
hours) I shape into boules, but they just seem to spread out rather
than rise and the dough is very soft, sticky and difficult to transfer
to the baking stone.

I am using the following recipe (about 60% hydration) from:

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sfsd1.html

Ingredients for two loaves:
1/4 cup starter
1 cup Whole wheat flour
5 1/2 cups White bread flour
2 1/2 cups Water
2 tsp Salt

I take the 1 cup whole wheat flour, 2/3 cup water and the 1/4 cup
starter and proof first for a few hours. Then add the rest of the
flour , water and salt. Ferment about 12 hours. Punch down, knead,
shape into boules and let "rise" a few more hours. I do get a little
oven proof. But the end result is quite flat and dense.

I tried this a second time, but this time, right before baking, I
reshaped the sticky mess into boules again. This seemed to help
some...but how do you transfer a shaped and risen boule to the baking
stone without it being a sticky mess? Do I need to put them in a form
or something? Lower % hydration?

Thanks all,

Todd K.

Todd, this sounds like the large sponge method I had been using to death for
everything, thinking for some reason you have to ferment the hell out of the
whole thing to get the best flavor. It just aint so dude, I am happily
converted.

What I do now for a bread similar to the one you are making, I take that
first cup or so of starter and ferment it for about 16 hours at around 75
degrees, get it good and active, frothy and ripe. There is alot of
flavor-noids built up just in this portion believe it or not. Okay, (this is
an autolyse step, I am using it at the moment, but I dont always)) from
there I add all the rest of my flour and water and mix it up just to get the
flour wet, and let it sit for about an hour. Okay then I add my salt, and do
my little kneading bit for a few minutes just till I am comfortable that the
salt is evenly distributed. Now let that proof for 2 1/2 hours, in which
time I do two sets of stretch and folds (google the archives, it helps
immensely) one 50 minutes in, then again 50 minutes later, then 50 minutes
later its time to divide it for loaves. Shape your boules tight once and
then again after they relax a bit, then either let rise in "form" (bowl
basket whatever) or "free form" on parchment paper which you can easily
handle into your oven. The parchment works good for inverting boules from
proofing bowls too, I put a square of parchment over my bowl, put my
cardboard "peel" over that, and simply turn the whole thing over.

So you have to back up a bit, think about whats happening here. Your
ingredients list is pretty sound. But your giving your leaven to much of a
chance to change your dough into something that will be beyond the point of
what you want it to be at bake time.

Good luck, hutchndi

On 25 Jan 2006 18:13:05 -0800, "Todd K." >
wrote:

>Thanks for all your help with the starter. I am happy with the starter
>now. Great taste, good first rise, but not so good second rise after
>shaping. I am making boules. After the first fermentation (about 12
>hours) I shape into boules, but they just seem to spread out rather
>than rise and the dough is very soft, sticky and difficult to transfer
>to the baking stone.
>
>I am using the following recipe (about 60% hydration) from:
>
>http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sfsd1.html
>
>Ingredients for two loaves:
>1/4 cup starter
>1 cup Whole wheat flour
>5 1/2 cups White bread flour
>2 1/2 cups Water
>2 tsp Salt
>
>I take the 1 cup whole wheat flour, 2/3 cup water and the 1/4 cup
>starter and proof first for a few hours. Then add the rest of the
>flour , water and salt. Ferment about 12 hours. Punch down, knead,
>shape into boules and let "rise" a few more hours. I do get a little
>oven proof. But the end result is quite flat and dense.
>
>I tried this a second time, but this time, right before baking, I
>reshaped the sticky mess into boules again. This seemed to help
>some...but how do you transfer a shaped and risen boule to the baking
>stone without it being a sticky mess? Do I need to put them in a form
>or something? Lower % hydration?
>
>Thanks all,
>
>Todd K.

Hi Todd,

After you shape the boule, how to you have them rise? That
is, are they in a container of some sort, or flat on a
surface?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

,--------------- Forwarded message (begin)

>Subject: Shaping Boules
> From: Todd K. >
> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:13:05 -0500
> Newsgroup: rec.food.sourdough

> Thanks for all your help with the starter. I am happy with the starter
> now. Great taste, good first rise, but not so good second rise after
> shaping. I am making boules. After the first fermentation (about 12
> hours) I shape into boules, but they just seem to spread out rather
> than rise and the dough is very soft, sticky and difficult to transfer
> to the baking stone.

I think you are overproofing, try proofing for 4 hours shape loafs proof 1
1/2 hours then bake.

Joe Umstead

> I am using the following recipe (about 60% hydration) from:

<SNAP>

> starter and proof first for a few hours. Then add the rest of the
> flour , water and salt. Ferment about 12 hours. Punch down, knead,
> shape into boules and let "rise" a few more hours. I do get a little
> oven proof. But the end result is quite flat and dense.


> Thanks all, Todd K.

On 25 Jan 2006 18:13:05 -0800, Todd K. > wrote:
>
> Thanks for all your help with the starter. I am happy with the starter
> now. Great taste, good first rise, but not so good second rise after
> shaping. I am making boules. After the first fermentation (about 12
> hours) I shape into boules, but they just seem to spread out rather
> than rise and the dough is very soft, sticky and difficult to transfer
> to the baking stone.
>
> I am using the following recipe (about 60% hydration) from:
>
> http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sfsd1.html


Well, you are ALMOST following the recipe. The recipe says,

Once the bread is kneaded, let it rest for 30 minutes. Then form the bread
into baguettes, boules, or pan loaves. Cover the loaves and let them rise at
room temperature until doubled in size, probably about 12 to 15 hours.

There is no first rise. Knead, rest, form, rise....

Hope that helps,
Mike

They are flat on a surface.

On 27 Jan 2006 14:12:06 -0800, "Todd K." >
wrote:

>They are flat on a surface.

Howdy,

(It is more convenient is you include something of the post
to which you are responding)

Now, about the baking...

You will have much better results if you form the boule, and
then put it into a container of some sort. The traditional
French approach is a linen lined basket called a "banneton."

The real deal is breathtakingly expensive, but you can get a
wicker basket for very little money, and lay into that a
piece of linen canvas from an art supply store.

When the boule is formed, there is a pinched area where it
is "sealed."

The boule is put in the basket with the pinch "up."

It is allowed to rise.

Then, it is quickly inverted onto a flat surface (called a
peel), usually slashed, and then slid into the hot oven.
(Because the boule was inverted onto the peel, the pinch is
then at the bottom.)

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

<I think you are overproofing, try proofing for 4 hours shape loafs
proof 1
1/2 hours then bake.>

Update:

I tried the above suggestion a couple of weeks ago with the shaped
loaves proofing in oiled bowls. The results of shape and texture where
much better, but there was no sour. So this weekend I tried a different
approach to the fermentation to get the sour. The total quantities was
the same as my original attempt posted above, but with a difference.
This time:

Sponge:
1/4 cup starter (week old from refridgerator)
1 cup WW flour
1 cup Bread flour
1.5 cup water

Let sponge ferment 14 hours

Added to sponge:
1 cup water
4.66 cup bread flour
20 grams salt

knead for 12 minutes
Fermented 4 hours at room temp,
Punched down, fermented in fridge for 22 hours
Split into two equal balls
Let sit at room temp for 1 hour
Shaped, proofed in oiled bowls for 2 hours
Baked for about 40 minutes at about 400F on gas grill w/ wood chips on
a pizza stone

Great results! Had the sourness I was looking for.
I finally got smart this time and tasted the dough through out the
stages of ferment to see when it developed the sour flavour. The
sponge was very sour. The dough after 4hrs at RT was not too sour, but
after the 22 hrs in fridge it was sufficiently sour!

I was so pleased with the results this time, I sent a loaf next door
for the neighbor to enjoy. I wouldn't have done that with my previous
"experiments".

Todd K.

"Todd K." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Let sponge ferment 14 hours
>
> Added to sponge:
> 1 cup water
> 4.66 cup bread flour
> 20 grams salt
>
> Todd K.
>
glad you had success. i am currently doing a refer test and a salt test
also. just one point, it looks like your salt % is a little high. try
around 16g for the amount of flour you are using, that gives you 2%. right
now you are about 2.5% salt. just a suggestion.

dan w

<right now you are about 2.5% salt.>

Thanks for the suggestion. I noticed that also in my spreadsheet that
uses bakers %. But when you include the flour from the sponge, the
percentage goes down to 2.0%. I'm using 1 cup flour=150 grams.

Todd K.