(Offhand, I didn't see this article in this group.)

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f....single.htm l

First 2/5 or so:

By Nicholas Day - Posted Thursday, March 1, 2012, at 8:30 AM ET

If this article ends abruptly, it is because the child welfare
authorities are at the door: A preschooler in our house is chopping
carrots.

A few weeks ago in the New York Times, a mother wrote about how her
sons, ages 10 and 14, each cook dinner one night a week. It was a
lovely story, but instead of reading it and thinking, OK—only seven
more years, I thought, I can do better than that.

My son may be only 3, and barely 3, but he already wants to cook
dinner. There’s a surprising amount he can accomplish in the kitchen:
wash vegetables, destem mushrooms, crack eggs, knead dough, consume
enormous quantities of said dough. But he wants to do more. This is
logical: The kitchen is where we spend the most time, and like any
child, he can sense what his parents are excited about. He wants to
cook because we care about cooking. I want him to cook for the same
reason. I’m not pushing him; he’s pushing himself.

I’m not talking about the saffron-foaming, Iron Chef sort of kids’
cooking. When I need help in the kitchen, it is rarely because the
saffron needs foaming. I’m talking about the actual work of getting
dinner on the table.

You are cringing. I can see you cringing from here. You are thinking:
This is a very, very bad idea.

But wait: I can cite a famous dead academic! The great, tubercular
Soviet psychologist Lev Vygotsky proposed the concept of “a zone of
proximal development,” for the work a child is not quite able to do on
his own. With the guidance of someone more skilled, though, he soon
can. With the exception of the oven, and a lot of the stove, much of
cooking amounts to a zone of proximal development, even for a
preschooler.

What’s surprising, or at least surprising to some of us, is how few
people have treated it this way. Advice about what children can do in
the kitchen usually devolves into advice about what they can’t do. It
answers only questions that no parent would ask: “According to the
University of Illinois, deep fryers are highly dangerous and children
should not be in the kitchen when deep fryers are in use.”

Almost no one has a good answer to the question of when children can
make a real contribution in the kitchen—the actual work of getting
dinner on the table. Instead, cookbooks for children seem to treat the
eighth birthday as endowing some sort of mystical kitchen
capabilities. But.......

(snip)


Lenona.

In article <77ea0846-28c7-4216-9168-8fcd7220ab56
@em1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f....single.htm l
With the exception of the oven, and a lot of the stove, much of
> cooking amounts to a zone of proximal development, even for a
> preschooler.
>
> What?s surprising, or at least surprising to some of us, is how few
> people have treated it this way.

I don't know where she got that idea. Over 30 years ago when my children
were at nursery school they started learning to buy cook and serve real
food; which combined all sorts of social educational and practical skills.
They would go out to buy fish fruit or vegetables, weigh/measure and
prepare ingredients, make fish pie or soup or fruit salad, learn to set a
table, serve each other, sociable table manners, washing up. One of then
STILL makes the first cake recipe he learned there at age three (all
ingredients heated in a pan then poured in a tin and baked in oven).
Nursery taught kids (age range 3 to 5) to use knives, peelers, scissors,
hammers and nails safely.

Janet UK

Lenona wrote:
> (Offhand, I didn't see this article in this group.)
>
> http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f....single.htm l
>
> First 2/5 or so:
>
> By Nicholas Day - Posted Thursday, March 1, 2012, at 8:30 AM ET
>
> If this article ends abruptly, it is because the child welfare
> authorities are at the door: A preschooler in our house is chopping
> carrots.
>
> A few weeks ago in the New York Times, a mother wrote about how her
> sons, ages 10 and 14, each cook dinner one night a week. It was a
> lovely story, but instead of reading it and thinking, OK—only seven
> more years, I thought, I can do better than that.
>
> My son may be only 3, and barely 3, but he already wants to cook
> dinner. There’s a surprising amount he can accomplish in the kitchen:
> wash vegetables, destem mushrooms, crack eggs, knead dough, consume
> enormous quantities of said dough. But he wants to do more. This is
> logical: The kitchen is where we spend the most time, and like any
> child, he can sense what his parents are excited about. He wants to
> cook because we care about cooking. I want him to cook for the same
> reason. I’m not pushing him; he’s pushing himself.
>
> I’m not talking about the saffron-foaming, Iron Chef sort of kids’
> cooking. When I need help in the kitchen, it is rarely because the
> saffron needs foaming. I’m talking about the actual work of getting
> dinner on the table.
>
> You are cringing. I can see you cringing from here. You are thinking:
> This is a very, very bad idea.
>
> But wait: I can cite a famous dead academic! The great, tubercular
> Soviet psychologist Lev Vygotsky proposed the concept of “a zone of
> proximal development,” for the work a child is not quite able to do on
> his own. With the guidance of someone more skilled, though, he soon
> can. With the exception of the oven, and a lot of the stove, much of
> cooking amounts to a zone of proximal development, even for a
> preschooler.
>
> What’s surprising, or at least surprising to some of us, is how few
> people have treated it this way. Advice about what children can do in
> the kitchen usually devolves into advice about what they can’t do. It
> answers only questions that no parent would ask: “According to the
> University of Illinois, deep fryers are highly dangerous and children
> should not be in the kitchen when deep fryers are in use.”
>
> Almost no one has a good answer to the question of when children can
> make a real contribution in the kitchen—the actual work of getting
> dinner on the table. Instead, cookbooks for children seem to treat the
> eighth birthday as endowing some sort of mystical kitchen
> capabilities. But.......
>
> (snip)
>
>
> Lenona.

My daughter started helping out ni the kitchen at about 18 months. She
could wash things, stir things, sprinkle grated cheese, help assemble
lasagna, etc.

She quickly lost interest in cooking though. Just wasn't her thing.

We moved back to WA when she was 6. We had apple and pear trees and things
that needed canning. She wanted to help with the canning. It took her a
long time to peel a pear and it was tough for her to operated the apple
peeler at that age. But by age 8 she insisted on doing not only all of the
peeling but the cutting as well. I did have to recut a few of the pears
because they weren't quite right but she did most all of it.

Then again she quickly lost interest in cooking.

She will be 14 in July. She can cook some things now. I believe it is
important for her to know how to cook. She doesn't want to know. She can
make a lot of things in the microwave which in this day and age is I guess
about all one needs to know. I know plenty of people who never venture into
cooking beyond that. She can cook a steak. She can read directions which
is really the most important part of cooking I suppose. So she could cook
if she had to.

Lenona wrote:
> (Offhand, I didn't see this article in this group.)
>
> http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f....single.htm l
>
> First 2/5 or so:
>
> By Nicholas Day - Posted Thursday, March 1, 2012, at 8:30 AM ET
>
> If this article ends abruptly, it is because the child welfare
> authorities are at the door: A preschooler in our house is chopping
> carrots.
>
> A few weeks ago in the New York Times, a mother wrote about how her
> sons, ages 10 and 14, each cook dinner one night a week. It was a
> lovely story, but instead of reading it and thinking, OK—only seven
> more years, I thought, I can do better than that.
>
> My son may be only 3, and barely 3, but he already wants to cook
> dinner. There’s a surprising amount he can accomplish in the kitchen:
> wash vegetables, destem mushrooms, crack eggs, knead dough, consume
> enormous quantities of said dough. But he wants to do more. This is
> logical: The kitchen is where we spend the most time, and like any
> child, he can sense what his parents are excited about. He wants to
> cook because we care about cooking. I want him to cook for the same
> reason. I’m not pushing him; he’s pushing himself.
>
> I’m not talking about the saffron-foaming, Iron Chef sort of kids’
> cooking. When I need help in the kitchen, it is rarely because the
> saffron needs foaming. I’m talking about the actual work of getting
> dinner on the table.
>
> You are cringing. I can see you cringing from here. You are thinking:
> This is a very, very bad idea.
>
> But wait: I can cite a famous dead academic! The great, tubercular
> Soviet psychologist Lev Vygotsky proposed the concept of “a zone of
> proximal development,” for the work a child is not quite able to do on
> his own. With the guidance of someone more skilled, though, he soon
> can. With the exception of the oven, and a lot of the stove, much of
> cooking amounts to a zone of proximal development, even for a
> preschooler.
>
> What’s surprising, or at least surprising to some of us, is how few
> people have treated it this way. Advice about what children can do in
> the kitchen usually devolves into advice about what they can’t do. It
> answers only questions that no parent would ask: “According to the
> University of Illinois, deep fryers are highly dangerous and children
> should not be in the kitchen when deep fryers are in use.”
>
> Almost no one has a good answer to the question of when children can
> make a real contribution in the kitchen—the actual work of getting
> dinner on the table. Instead, cookbooks for children seem to treat the
> eighth birthday as endowing some sort of mystical kitchen
> capabilities. But.......
>
> (snip)
>
>
> Lenona.

On May 15, 5:06*pm, "Julie Bove" > wrote:
> Lenona wrote:
> > (Offhand, I didn't see this article in this group.)
>
> >http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f...ren_cooking_ho...
>
> > First 2/5 or so:
>
> > By Nicholas Day - Posted Thursday, March 1, 2012, at 8:30 AM ET
>
> > If this article ends abruptly, it is because the child welfare
> > authorities are at the door: A preschooler in our house is chopping
> > carrots.
>
> > A few weeks ago in the New York Times, a mother wrote about how her
> > sons, ages 10 and 14, each cook dinner one night a week. It was a
> > lovely story, but instead of reading it and thinking, OK—only seven
> > more years, I thought, I can do better than that.
>
> > My son may be only 3, and barely 3, but he already wants to cook
> > dinner. There’s a surprising amount he can accomplish in the kitchen:
> > wash vegetables, destem mushrooms, crack eggs, knead dough, consume
> > enormous quantities of said dough. But he wants to do more. This is
> > logical: The kitchen is where we spend the most time, and like any
> > child, he can sense what his parents are excited about. He wants to
> > cook because we care about cooking. I want him to cook for the same
> > reason. I’m not pushing him; he’s pushing himself.
>
> > I’m not talking about the saffron-foaming, Iron Chef sort of kids’
> > cooking. When I need help in the kitchen, it is rarely because the
> > saffron needs foaming. I’m talking about the actual work of getting
> > dinner on the table.
>
> > You are cringing. I can see you cringing from here. You are thinking:
> > This is a very, very bad idea.
>
> > But wait: I can cite a famous dead academic! The great, tubercular
> > Soviet psychologist Lev Vygotsky proposed the concept of “a zone of
> > proximal development,” for the work a child is not quite able to do on
> > his own. With the guidance of someone more skilled, though, he soon
> > can. With the exception of the oven, and a lot of the stove, much of
> > cooking amounts to a zone of proximal development, even for a
> > preschooler.
>
> > What’s surprising, or at least surprising to some of us, is how few
> > people have treated it this way. Advice about what children can do in
> > the kitchen usually devolves into advice about what they can’t do. It
> > answers only questions that no parent would ask: “According to the
> > University of Illinois, deep fryers are highly dangerous and children
> > should not be in the kitchen when deep fryers are in use.”
>
> > Almost no one has a good answer to the question of when children can
> > make a real contribution in the kitchen—the actual work of getting
> > dinner on the table. Instead, cookbooks for children seem to treat the
> > eighth birthday as endowing some sort of mystical kitchen
> > capabilities. But.......
>
> > (snip)
>
> > Lenona.
>
> My daughter started helping out ni the kitchen at about 18 months. *She
> could wash things, stir things, sprinkle grated cheese, help assemble
> lasagna, etc.
>
> She quickly lost interest in cooking though. *Just wasn't her thing.
>
> We moved back to WA when she was 6. *We had apple and pear trees and things
> that needed canning. *She wanted to help with the canning. *It took her a
> long time to peel a pear and it was tough for her to operated the apple
> peeler at that age. *But by age 8 she insisted on doing not only all of the
> peeling but the cutting as well. *I did have to recut a few of the pears
> because they weren't quite right but she did most all of it.
>
> Then again she quickly lost interest in cooking.
>
> She will be 14 in July. *She can cook some things now. *I believe it is
> important for her to know how to cook. *She doesn't want to know. *She can
> make a lot of things in the microwave which in this day and age is I guess
> about all one needs to know. *I know plenty of people who never venture into
> cooking beyond that. *She can cook a steak. *She can read directions which
> is really the most important part of cooking I suppose. *So she could cook
> if she had to.

There are a lot of things kids think they know at that age, but keep
pushing. She needs to learn the basics of cooking without using a
microwave so she can make good decisions as she gets older. I have
made sure we have dinner as a family every night, regardless of what I
cook or cheat on when time is an issue. My oldest son who is 25 can
cook pretty well, and knows the benefit of knowing that he's better
off with the basic skills. He'll even call me if he has a question.

On May 15, 4:57*pm, Janet > wrote:
> In article <77ea0846-28c7-4216-9168-8fcd7220ab56
> @em1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> >http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f...ren_cooking_ho...
>
> *With the exception of the oven, and a lot of the stove, much of
>
> > cooking amounts to a zone of proximal development, even for a
> > preschooler.
>
> > What?s surprising, or at least surprising to some of us, is how few
> > people have treated it this way.
>
> * I don't know where she got that idea. Over 30 years ago when my children
> were at nursery school they started learning to buy cook and serve real
> food; which combined all sorts of social educational and practical skills..
> They would go out to buy fish fruit or vegetables, weigh/measure and
> prepare ingredients, make fish pie or soup or fruit salad, learn to set a
> table, serve each other, sociable table manners, washing up. One of then
> STILL makes the first cake recipe he learned there at age three (all
> ingredients heated in a pan then poured in *a tin and baked in oven).
> Nursery taught *kids (age range 3 to 5) to use knives, peelers, scissors,
> hammers and nails safely.
>

One theory I read years ago which has consistently proven correct --
when the kids want to help, let them help, even if you think they're
way too young. Else you may quench their helping urge entirely. And if
you have to redo their work, don't let them see you.

Last week I was in the Trader Joe's checkout line behind the mother of
two. The little girl sitting in the cart facing me -- thus tiny -- was
reaching around and handing things to the cashier. (Trader Joe's has
no conveyor belts for the customers to empty their carts into.)

On Tue, 15 May 2012 16:09:51 -0700 (PDT), Lenona >
wrote:

> (Offhand, I didn't see this article in this group.)
>
> http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f....single.htm l
>
> First 2/5 or so:
>
> By Nicholas Day - Posted Thursday, March 1, 2012, at 8:30 AM ET
>
> If this article ends abruptly, it is because the child welfare
> authorities are at the door: A preschooler in our house is chopping
> carrots.
>
> A few weeks ago in the New York Times, a mother wrote about how her
> sons, ages 10 and 14, each cook dinner one night a week. It was a
> lovely story, but instead of reading it and thinking, OK—only seven
> more years, I thought, I can do better than that.
>
> My son may be only 3, and barely 3, but he already wants to cook
> dinner. There’s a surprising amount he can accomplish in the kitchen:
> wash vegetables, destem mushrooms, crack eggs, knead dough, consume
> enormous quantities of said dough. But he wants to do more. This is
> logical: The kitchen is where we spend the most time, and like any
> child, he can sense what his parents are excited about. He wants to
> cook because we care about cooking. I want him to cook for the same
> reason. I’m not pushing him; he’s pushing himself.
>
> I’m not talking about the saffron-foaming, Iron Chef sort of kids’
> cooking. When I need help in the kitchen, it is rarely because the
> saffron needs foaming. I’m talking about the actual work of getting
> dinner on the table.
>
> You are cringing. I can see you cringing from here. You are thinking:
> This is a very, very bad idea.

I'm not cringing. I didn't assign nights for my kids to cook, but
they often took on weekend breakfasts for themselves without any
prompting. I clearly remember that my oldest was 10 when we got our
first breakfast in bed. My husband and I slept in that morning and we
awoke to them bringing us breakfast in bed (I had trays) that was
bacon, eggs (over easy) and hash browns made from raw potatoes. Both
kids are terrific cooks as adults, but I didn't push them into taking
on any of the responsibilities of making a meal - they did what they
did on their own (or by helping me). I only wanted them to be able to
follow simple recipes on their own - like the Toll House cookie recipe
on that bag of chocolate chips.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Tue, 15 May 2012 17:06:12 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> wrote:

> She can read directions which
> is really the most important part of cooking I suppose. So she could cook
> if she had to.
>

That's all she needs to know how to do. Wants and needs will govern
the rest.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Tue, 15 May 2012 17:26:13 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
> wrote:

> One theory I read years ago which has consistently proven correct --
> when the kids want to help, let them help, even if you think they're
> way too young. Else you may quench their helping urge entirely. And if
> you have to redo their work, don't let them see you.

I can say "that's the truth". My DIL wasn't allowed to help and as a
young adult was "kicked out" of the kitchen if what she tried to do
didn't measure up. My son and I taught her how to cook (she was a
willing student) and she's excellent now.
>
> Last week I was in the Trader Joe's checkout line behind the mother of
> two. The little girl sitting in the cart facing me -- thus tiny -- was
> reaching around and handing things to the cashier. (Trader Joe's has
> no conveyor belts for the customers to empty their carts into.)

My son's children do that too and I love it! I can't remember my kids
doing that. They were more focused on the candy next to the register.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 5/15/2012 6:09 PM, Lenona wrote:

> Almost no one has a good answer to the question of when children can
> make a real contribution in the kitchen—the actual work of getting
> dinner on the table. Instead, cookbooks for children seem to treat the
> eighth birthday as endowing some sort of mystical kitchen
> capabilities. But.......

When I was 8 years old, my Mom went back to work and my Grandmother came
to live with us. Grandma couldn't walk well, so when I got home from
school, it was my job to help her get supper ready. She would sit at the
kitchen table and we would cook. It wasn't too long before I was able
to make the entire meal myself. I guess that is where I got my love for
cooking.... those afternoons with my Grandma. She passed away when I
was 12 but by then, I was doing pretty much all the cooking for the
family during the week.

My first real job was when I was 15... working in the kitchen of a
Howard Johnson's restaurant, first as a dish washer, then a cook.

George L

On Wed, 16 May 2012 09:51:15 -0500, George Leppla
> wrote:

> On 5/15/2012 6:09 PM, Lenona wrote:
>
> > Almost no one has a good answer to the question of when children can
> > make a real contribution in the kitchen—the actual work of getting
> > dinner on the table. Instead, cookbooks for children seem to treat the
> > eighth birthday as endowing some sort of mystical kitchen
> > capabilities. But.......
>
> When I was 8 years old, my Mom went back to work and my Grandmother came
> to live with us. Grandma couldn't walk well, so when I got home from
> school, it was my job to help her get supper ready. She would sit at the
> kitchen table and we would cook. It wasn't too long before I was able
> to make the entire meal myself. I guess that is where I got my love for
> cooking.... those afternoons with my Grandma. She passed away when I
> was 12 but by then, I was doing pretty much all the cooking for the
> family during the week.

Good memories!
>
> My first real job was when I was 15... working in the kitchen of a
> Howard Johnson's restaurant, first as a dish washer, then a cook.
>
> George L
>
>


--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

George Leppla wrote:
> On 5/15/2012 6:09 PM, Lenona wrote:
>
>> Almost no one has a good answer to the question of when children can
>> make a real contribution in the kitchen—the actual work of getting
>> dinner on the table. Instead, cookbooks for children seem to treat the
>> eighth birthday as endowing some sort of mystical kitchen
>> capabilities. But.......
>
> When I was 8 years old, my Mom went back to work and my Grandmother came
> to live with us. Grandma couldn't walk well, so when I got home from
> school, it was my job to help her get supper ready. She would sit at the
> kitchen table and we would cook. It wasn't too long before I was able
> to make the entire meal myself. I guess that is where I got my love for
> cooking.... those afternoons with my Grandma. She passed away when I
> was 12 but by then, I was doing pretty much all the cooking for the
> family during the week.
>
> My first real job was when I was 15... working in the kitchen of a
> Howard Johnson's restaurant, first as a dish washer, then a cook.
>
> George L
>
>
>
At what age did you transition to cook?

--
Jean B.

On 5/16/2012 7:55 PM, Jean B. wrote:
> George Leppla wrote:

>>
>> My first real job was when I was 15... working in the kitchen of a
>> Howard Johnson's restaurant, first as a dish washer, then a cook.
>>
>> George L
>>
>>
>>
> At what age did you transition to cook?
>


16... 4 months after I started there. I worked in that restaurant during
school months on and off all through high school and by the time I
graduated, I had done all of the jobs in the place including working the
counter and waiting tables.

During the summers I worked at the beach for the NY State Park
Commission... best job in the world.

George L

On May 16, 10:51*am, George Leppla > wrote:
> On 5/15/2012 6:09 PM, Lenona wrote:
>
> > Almost no one has a good answer to the question of when children can
> > make a real contribution in the kitchen—the actual work of getting
> > dinner on the table. Instead, cookbooks for children seem to treat the
> > eighth birthday as endowing some sort of mystical kitchen
> > capabilities. But.......
>
> When I was 8 years old, my Mom went back to work and my Grandmother came
> to live with us. *Grandma couldn't walk well, so when I got home from
> school, it was my job to help her get supper ready. She would sit at the
> kitchen table and we would cook. *It wasn't too long before I was able
> to make the entire meal myself. *I guess that is where I got my love for
> cooking.... those afternoons with my Grandma. *She passed away when I
> was 12 but by then, I was doing pretty much all the cooking for the
> family during the week.
>

Good for you. Every woman should have a guy who can and likes to cook.

In article <e01cd89f-8a90-4e34-9351-9e6f9cf76574
@d33g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> On May 16, 10:51*am, George Leppla > wrote:
> > On 5/15/2012 6:09 PM, Lenona wrote:
> >
> > > Almost no one has a good answer to the question of when children can
> > > make a real contribution in the kitchen?the actual work of getting
> > > dinner on the table. Instead, cookbooks for children seem to treat the
> > > eighth birthday as endowing some sort of mystical kitchen
> > > capabilities. But.......
> >
> > When I was 8 years old, my Mom went back to work and my Grandmother came
> > to live with us. *Grandma couldn't walk well, so when I got home from
> > school, it was my job to help her get supper ready. She would sit at the
> > kitchen table and we would cook. *It wasn't too long before I was able
> > to make the entire meal myself. *I guess that is where I got my love for
> > cooking.... those afternoons with my Grandma. *She passed away when I
> > was 12 but by then, I was doing pretty much all the cooking for the
> > family during the week.
> >
>
> Good for you. Every woman should have a guy who can and likes to cook.

My sons always reckoned that when they left home for university, being
able to cook well made them babe-magnets.

Janet

George Leppla wrote:
> On 5/16/2012 7:55 PM, Jean B. wrote:
>> George Leppla wrote:
>
>>>
>>> My first real job was when I was 15... working in the kitchen of a
>>> Howard Johnson's restaurant, first as a dish washer, then a cook.
>>>
>>> George L
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> At what age did you transition to cook?
>>
>
>
> 16... 4 months after I started there. I worked in that restaurant during
> school months on and off all through high school and by the time I
> graduated, I had done all of the jobs in the place including working the
> counter and waiting tables.
>
> During the summers I worked at the beach for the NY State Park
> Commission... best job in the world.
>
> George L

Nice!

--
Jean B.