Dave Smith > wrote:

>My job did not require me to put in extra time for free. If I went on a
>training course it was on company time. They paid travel time, paid me
>for the time and paid my hotel and meals. If I had to work late i got
>paid time and a half.

That's communism!!!


Steve

In article >,
Dave Smith > wrote:


> >> Around here, teachers are on salary. They don't get paid to attend
> >> school events.

> Teachers around here do all sorts of extra job related things without
> compensation. They have parent teacher nights, award ceremonies,
> chaperon dances etc. and get no remuneration at all.
>
> When my son was in high school I used to chaperon the ski club trips
> every Friday night in the winter. One teacher used to go along every
> week. We left the school at 3 pm travel across the border, get back t 1
> or 2 am. That was 10 hours extra he put in. In any other job he would
> have got time and a half for that 10 hours.

I don't know how it works in Canada, but in the US, employees are
divided into two categories, "exempt" and "non-exempt", based on whether
they are covered by FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act), a federal law that
covers all employees in the US, whether public or private. I don't know
exactly how to tell who is which, but the government knows. It is
basically wage earner vs salaried, white collar vs blue collar,
management vs non-management and professional vs non-professional. A
non-exempt employee who is required to work 10 additional hours will
generally be paid time and a half for those hours. A salaried employee
*has* no hourly rate, so how do you pay them time and a half anyway?

So that "In any other job he would have got time and a half" would
generally not apply to teachers, because they are salaried white collar
professionals.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On 2/27/2010 9:34 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
> J. > wrote:
>
>> And if you ban general aviation then where are your airline pilots
>> going to come from?
>
> Used to be they all started in the military. Has that changed
> now? I suppose it has.

A lot of them do, not all. That's why places like Embry-Riddle exist.

"Dan Abel" > wrote
> I don't know how it works in Canada, but in the US, employees are
> divided into two categories, "exempt" and "non-exempt", based on whether
> they are covered by FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act), a federal law that
> covers all employees in the US, whether public or private. I don't know
> exactly how to tell who is which, but the government knows. It is
> basically wage earner vs salaried, white collar vs blue collar,
> management vs non-management and professional vs non-professional. A
> non-exempt employee who is required to work 10 additional hours will
> generally be paid time and a half for those hours. A salaried employee
> *has* no hourly rate, so how do you pay them time and a half anyway?

But a company can make an exception to those rules. Some years ago I was a
supervisor at a large manufacturing company. We were "exempt" and were
expected to work an hour a day of the 8 getting our department set up in the
morning or doing paperwork after production was done. If we worked beyond
that hour or on a Saturday, we could turn in a time sheet and get paid for
the extra hours. They took our salary divided by 40 hours for the rate.

In my present job I don't get paid for overtime. I do, however, get nice
bonuses and other little extras during the year. I can take off as much
time as I want also. I don't have any set vacation time.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:42:28 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

> sf replied to Ed:
>
> >> Jan. W spends her free time at the lake cottage.
> >> Tammy R spends winter vacation down south, spring break in New Hampshire,
> >> summer in the camper.
> >> Tony F devotes most of his spare time to a part time business that he
> >> has.
> >
> > I don't know who Jan and Tony are, but Tammy works at the college
> > level and as far as I know is not teaching, she's in the office. So,
> > every school employee is a teacher as far as you're concerned?
>
> Different Tammy. The Tammy you're thinking about is TammyM. Ed specifically
> said Tammy R.
>
In that case I have no idea who Tammy M is.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:37:25 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> Stu wrote:
> >
> > Here they are technically laid off for the summer with recall in
> > September, as well they have to have a minimum number of hours put in
> > to collect ( I think the minimum is 700) .
>
> Around here they are not "technically laid off". They are on yearly
> contracts, and as long as their contracts are in force they are employed
> and do not qualify for unemployment insurance. teaching assistants,
> OTOH, are laid off for the summer.

same here

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

sf wrote:

> It's not unemployment insurance. If they are full time teachers,
> their 10 month salary is spread over 12 months. At least that's the
> way it worked in my old district.

Is it common for teachers to take summer jobs during that time off? One of
the math teachers at my high school worked as a pro wrestler during the
summers, which struck me as a bit unusual.

Bob

Ranée at Arabian Knits > wrote:

> He also shows an ignorance of what GA is. Instructors, charter,
> airfreight and business pilots are all professionals. They are
> also GA and fly in and out of GA airports. As did the president,
> presidential candidates, public speakers, entertainers, sports
> figures, Bill Gates type business folk, etc.

So I'm ignorant, eh?

We need to shutdown these elite, wealthy, offensive types such
as you describe above from defiling the skys with their
aircraft, and we as taxpayers need to de-fund the entire
activity, including superfluous people like your husband
who are on the public dole just to coddle the weatlthy with
their toy airplanes. The whole thing is an offensive sham.

Kick the GA types off welfare. I'm glad I work for a living
rather than being a leech. The skies belong to the public
and all flights that serve someone's ego as opposed to serving
the public interert should be banned.

Steve

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:01:43 -0500, George >
wrote:

> I guess it depends. My former neighbor had a motor home and they
> disappeared for the summer, my buddies brother has a custom deck
> business, my uncle travels, my cousins two kids travel all summer, my
> other friend's brother had a painting business. Of all the people I know
> who teach I can't think of any who went near their school during the
> summer. As far as I can tell they only need to show a few days before
> classes begin.

Sounds like they were not tenured.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:19:31 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

> brooklyn1 > wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:58:01 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
>
> >>"sf" > wrote
>
> >>> Don't forget, teachers do not pay into social
> >>> security so they will not be collecting it unless they had a career
> >>> and paid into ss before they started teaching. Let's assume they did
> >>> have a previous career and did pay into social security. They will be
> >>> penalized for collecting.
>
> >>Most of us would rather have the teacher's pension than SS. We don't have
> >>the luxury of that.
>
> >In NY teachers do pay into SS, they collect SS plus pension...
> >probably CA is not part of the US or sf is lying (she's probably just
> >stupid), last I heard SS is as Federal as IRS, everyone pays.
>
> California and Texas at least.
>
> The practice of some employees not paying into SS should be
> done away with. Part of SS taxes (85%) goes to future benefits
> that are scaled (sort-of) to what you pay in; the rest goes
> to the disability system, and it is not fair that selected
> workers (such as some teachers) not shoulder their fair share
> of supporting persons with disabilities.
>
> Just make everyone pay the same tax and get rid of these
> one-off preferences.
>
Teachers are paying into their own retirement fund. The railroad used
to do that too... with much better benefits than teaching. I don't
know what rr retirement is now.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

sf > wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:19:31 +0000 (UTC),

>> Just make everyone pay the same tax and get rid of these
>> one-off preferences.

>Teachers are paying into their own retirement fund.

Yes, and so am I. Yet I must by law pay SS tax even
if I don't want to. And yes, it is a large amount of
tax, larger than federal income tax unless I have a
better than average year.

>The railroad used
>to do that too... with much better benefits than teaching. I don't
>know what rr retirement is now.

The trend is towards whittling down these non-payers of SS tax,
eventually it will be gotten rid of and there will be a uniform
tax that everyone pays. The exception for teachers and RR workers
is not sustainable.

Steve

sf wrote:

>> Different Tammy. The Tammy you're thinking about is TammyM. Ed
>> specifically said Tammy R.
>>
> In that case I have no idea who Tammy M is.

I think you mean you have no idea who Tammy R is. TammyM is the Tammy who
posts here, the one who lives in the Sacramento area and works at UC Davis,
the one who has the citrus trees and the dogs, and who's been baking a lot
recently. You know... the *cute* one! :-)

Does http://www.recfoodcooking.com/mug/shot/TammyM.jpg ring a bell?

Bob

sf wrote:

>> Of all the people I know who teach I can't think of any who went near
>> their school during the summer. As far as I can tell they only need to
>> show a few days before classes begin.
>
> Sounds like they were not tenured.

....because as we all know, tenure *improves* the work ethic of educators.

Bob

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:15:50 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:
>
> Are teachers earning more than similarly-skilled person in
> private industry, working similar numbers of hours? Not clear, and
> I don't know how you'd determine this exactly. Anecdotally,
> persons I know with similar skill sets and similar amounts
> of formal education but who opt not to teach are doing things like
> tech writing and editing that pay less than teaching does --

I don't think your average tech writer has as much interpersonal BS
(times 30) to deal with per day as the average teacher.

> unless they have a talent for sales or something similarly lucrative.
> Persons who invested more in their formal education (including,
> those teaching at postsecondary levels) are earning more.

Fully credentialed California teachers have at least one year of post
grad work under their belt if they didn't go down the "alternative
path" for their credential.
>
> What's clear is that teachers are not wildly underpaid relative
> to the surrounding market. That hasn't been true in the average
> case for thirty years.

Correction: the last 10 years, not 30. As I love to dis GWB, NCLB was
a positive for teacher salary - not Calif. per se, but the rest of the
country... particularly the south.
>
> Taxpayers in localities where teachers are still underpaid should do
> something about it.
>
The union (in Cal) has worked hard for teachers not to be underpaid.
The public's beef now seems to be that they have better benefits and
retirement than the average worker.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:24:36 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

> Ranée at Arabian Knits > wrote:
>
> > He also shows an ignorance of what GA is. Instructors, charter,
> > airfreight and business pilots are all professionals. They are
> > also GA and fly in and out of GA airports. As did the president,
> > presidential candidates, public speakers, entertainers, sports
> > figures, Bill Gates type business folk, etc.
>
> So I'm ignorant, eh?
>
> We need to shutdown these elite, wealthy, offensive types such
> as you describe above from defiling the skys with their
> aircraft, and we as taxpayers need to de-fund the entire
> activity, including superfluous people like your husband
> who are on the public dole just to coddle the weatlthy with
> their toy airplanes. The whole thing is an offensive sham.
>
> Kick the GA types off welfare. I'm glad I work for a living
> rather than being a leech. The skies belong to the public
> and all flights that serve someone's ego as opposed to serving
> the public interert should be banned.
>
LOL


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

George wrote:

> almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really do
> something stupid

A good second-grade teacher would have taught you the difference between
"loose" and "lose."

Bob

"Bob Terwilliger" > writes:

> George wrote:
>
>> almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really do
>> something stupid
>
> A good second-grade teacher would have taught you the difference between
> "loose" and "lose."
>
> Bob

And a fellow moron could explain to you the concept of a typo.

In article >,
George > wrote:

> On 2/27/2010 10:35 AM, sf wrote:
> > On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:02:45 -0500, >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Some include 15 weeks paid vacation, an ultra super deluxe never need to
> >> pay for anything medical/dental/optical plan that continues after they
> >> retire at the highest of their last three years salary after 30 years of
> >> service, almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really
> >> do something stupid, a minimum of an extra $150 compensation if they
> >> asked to be at any school event outside of the normal 6.5 hour school
> >> day. And if they don't get what they want they simply turn the life of
> >> everyone who has children into chaos with last minute stikes (I believe
> >> that was part of their agreement that they wanted to be union members
> >> for collective bargaining purposes only and would never strike).
> >
> > Show me a teacher, especially an elementary teacher, who only works
> > 6.5 hours a day and is not back in the classroom working off the clock
> > during that so called vacation. I can only say that the private
> > sector gladly threw away their gold watches and retirements in favor
> > of fatter monthly paychecks and private contracting decades ago, so
> > don't go there.
> >
>
> Thats how it works here. I have relatives and friends who are teachers
> and what I described is typical. I am not picking on teachers. I just
> get tired of the constant "teachers deserve much more..." Its a job with
> pluses and minuses like other jobs..
>
> And they do get a 15 week paid vacation around here. They are
> responsible to no one during that time.

City Police/County Sherifs get paid as bad, and their job is even worse.
Want to sympathize with a really ugly and necessary job? Sympathize
with local law enforcement, and support them.

Take your local CPA (Citizens Police Academy) class and join their
Alumni association. The local cops love their CPA volunteers. :-)
There is also a Sherifs academy class.

The classes for the CPA are usually free and taught by cops volunteering
to do it. Gives you a good inside look at the realities of that job,
and it's fun.

<http://www.nationalcpaa.org/>

<http://www.volunteerfd.org/>
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

In article >,
sf > wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:25:49 -0500, George >
> wrote:
>
> > And they do get a 15 week paid vacation around here. They are
> > responsible to no one during that time.
>
> A lot happens during that time period. Reorganize the room from the
> previous year, prepare the room for the following year, lesson plan.
> If you don't hit the ground running, you're SOL.

sf, can you e-mail me please about classroom teaching?
I'm planning on teaching part time on weekends and need to learn some of
the ins and outs of doing so. It will be following NRA curriculums.

I'd appreciate a few hints if you are willing. ;-) I'll also be doing
volunteer time at Karl Rhen's classes to learn more from him before I
try venturing out on my own...
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

On 2/27/2010 7:37 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> Stu wrote:
>>
>> Here they are technically laid off for the summer with recall in
>> September, as well they have to have a minimum number of hours put in
>> to collect ( I think the minimum is 700) .
>
> Around here they are not "technically laid off". They are on yearly
> contracts, and as long as their contracts are in force they are employed
> and do not qualify for unemployment insurance. teaching assistants,
> OTOH, are laid off for the summer.

According to my friend's wife who used to work in the unemployment
office teachers used to be able to simply show up and declare they were
out of work because of a "forced lock out" and then get both
unemployment and their salary.

Maybe the word got out or someone realized teachers got a yearly salary
and the summer vacation was a paid vacation not a "forced lock out"

On 2/28/2010 1:30 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:01:43 -0500, >
> wrote:
>
>> I guess it depends. My former neighbor had a motor home and they
>> disappeared for the summer, my buddies brother has a custom deck
>> business, my uncle travels, my cousins two kids travel all summer, my
>> other friend's brother had a painting business. Of all the people I know
>> who teach I can't think of any who went near their school during the
>> summer. As far as I can tell they only need to show a few days before
>> classes begin.
>
> Sounds like they were not tenured.
>

Sure they were. What would that have to do with how they use their
summer vacation time?

"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "sf" > wrote
>> Don't forget, teachers do not pay into social
>> security so they will not be collecting it unless they had a career
>> and paid into ss before they started teaching. Let's assume they did
>> have a previous career and did pay into social security. They will be
>> penalized for collecting.
>
> Most of us would rather have the teacher's pension than SS. We don't have
> the luxury of that.

I have to say, this has been a very interesting discussion. I agree that
teachers have been underpaid and underappreciated for a long time, but as a
state employee I got really sick and tired of hearing that nobody but the
teachers would get raises most years. Or we would get a 2.5% cost of living
and they got 4%. Or we all got to take to extra weeks of vacation in lieu of
a cash raise and they got a raise.

That said, two of my four sisters are teachers, and I would not do it for
any amount of money. Squeezed between asshole parents, asshole
administrators, and far too many asshole children who have not fallen very
far from the asshole tree.

On 2/27/2010 9:56 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> George wrote:
>
>
>
>>> Around here, teachers are on salary. They don't get paid to attend
>>> school events.
>>
>> The union contract requires that there be a minimum of two teachers at
>> any event and they must get at least $150/each. That includes fund
>> raisers, sports etc.
>
> Teachers around here do all sorts of extra job related things without
> compensation. They have parent teacher nights, award ceremonies,
> chaperon dances etc. and get no remuneration at all.
>
> When my son was in high school I used to chaperon the ski club trips
> every Friday night in the winter. One teacher used to go along every
> week. We left the school at 3 pm travel across the border, get back t 1
> or 2 am. That was 10 hours extra he put in. In any other job he would
> have got time and a half for that 10 hours.
>

I think you are missing the difference between an hourly worker and a
salaried worker. Folks who work for a salary do whatever falls into the
scope of their job for that salary. An hourly worker has their time
tracked and is subject to wage and hour laws.

For what you described the teacher was doing something that was fully
within the scope of their employment.

On 28/02/2010 1:34 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
> J. > wrote:
>
>> And if you ban general aviation then where are your airline pilots
>> going to come from?
>
> Used to be they all started in the military. Has that changed
> now? I suppose it has.
>
> Steve

With respect to ex-military pilots, demand exceeds supply.
Now if there was a major war going on, that might change things.

Krypsis

On 2/27/2010 7:48 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
> Ranée at Arabian > wrote:
>
>> Like I said, this is just life as a salaried employee. If the
>> job is worth it, you keep it up and complain occasionally to
>> your spouse about the hours and lack of sleep and sometimes put
>> up with rolled eyes and frustration from the spouse when another
>> holiday is interrupted by a moron who landed gear up, again.
>
> It is time to abolish general aviation completely and only
> allow airliners and other professionally-piloted aircraft
> to fly.
>
> (AND pay the pilots enough so that the above does not happen...)
>
> Steve

Its deeper than that. walmart trained everyone that cheap is all that
matters whatever it actually costs.

Few people realize that the airplane they are flying in might be flown
by someone making $19k/year who barely has the qualifications for the
job because everyone wants cheap. The Dash 8 that went upside down and
crashed with no survivors last year after they picked up ice is a
perfect example. Both pilots were extremely low time and one had slept
on various couches along the way during a day of traveling to get to her
job.

I think banning GA is a little over the top.

On 2/27/2010 9:34 PM, Steve Pope wrote:
> J. > wrote:
>
>> And if you ban general aviation then where are your airline pilots
>> going to come from?
>
> Used to be they all started in the military. Has that changed
> now? I suppose it has.
>
> Steve

That was never the case. Tons of airline pilots got there via GA. I know
many and they are competent and professional. The latest being my
friends daughter who is now a US airways captain. She hung around the
airport with dad and was a natural. She got her instructors rating and
built up time and experience and moved on to the airlines.

"George" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/27/2010 7:37 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> Stu wrote:
>>>
>>> Here they are technically laid off for the summer with recall in
>>> September, as well they have to have a minimum number of hours put in
>>> to collect ( I think the minimum is 700) .
>>
>> Around here they are not "technically laid off". They are on yearly
>> contracts, and as long as their contracts are in force they are employed
>> and do not qualify for unemployment insurance. teaching assistants,
>> OTOH, are laid off for the summer.
>
> According to my friend's wife who used to work in the unemployment office
> teachers used to be able to simply show up and declare they were out of
> work because of a "forced lock out" and then get both unemployment and
> their salary.
>
> Maybe the word got out or someone realized teachers got a yearly salary
> and the summer vacation was a paid vacation not a "forced lock out"

This smells strongly of horse poo. I thought ****wiliger had entered the
room.

Omelet wrote:
> In article >,
> sf > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:25:49 -0500, George >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> And they do get a 15 week paid vacation around here. They are
>>> responsible to no one during that time.
>> A lot happens during that time period. Reorganize the room from the
>> previous year, prepare the room for the following year, lesson plan.
>> If you don't hit the ground running, you're SOL.
>
> sf, can you e-mail me please about classroom teaching?
> I'm planning on teaching part time on weekends and need to learn some of
> the ins and outs of doing so. It will be following NRA curriculums.
>
> I'd appreciate a few hints if you are willing. ;-) I'll also be doing
> volunteer time at Karl Rhen's classes to learn more from him before I
> try venturing out on my own...

Om: email me off group, I was an NRA instructor for over 20 years and a
classroom teacher (college) for at least one semester. *Decided academia
wasn't for me, I was far to conservative to ever make a full professor.

George

NRA Endowment member

In article >,
Bogbrush > wrote:

> > School should be year round. I'd like to see the trimester system
> > universally adopted. Summer is just a time for kids to get bored and in
> > to trouble imho.
>
> Ye gods. What a small minded person you are. Long summer vacations are
> the periods when young minds grow and characters are born. Factory
> herding kids through school 50 weeks a year would produce a load of
> nasty little clones.

Better than a bunch of bored gangland dropout/delinquents!
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

In article >,
George Shirley > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> > In article >,
> > sf > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:25:49 -0500, George >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> And they do get a 15 week paid vacation around here. They are
> >>> responsible to no one during that time.
> >> A lot happens during that time period. Reorganize the room from the
> >> previous year, prepare the room for the following year, lesson plan.
> >> If you don't hit the ground running, you're SOL.
> >
> > sf, can you e-mail me please about classroom teaching?
> > I'm planning on teaching part time on weekends and need to learn some of
> > the ins and outs of doing so. It will be following NRA curriculums.
> >
> > I'd appreciate a few hints if you are willing. ;-) I'll also be doing
> > volunteer time at Karl Rhen's classes to learn more from him before I
> > try venturing out on my own...
>
> Om: email me off group, I was an NRA instructor for over 20 years and a
> classroom teacher (college) for at least one semester. *Decided academia
> wasn't for me, I was far to conservative to ever make a full professor.
>
> George
>
> NRA Endowment member

Will do, thanks!
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>

Subscribe:

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:26:02 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

> sf wrote:
>
> >> Different Tammy. The Tammy you're thinking about is TammyM. Ed
> >> specifically said Tammy R.
> >>
> > In that case I have no idea who Tammy M is.
>
> I think you mean you have no idea who Tammy R is. TammyM is the Tammy who
> posts here, the one who lives in the Sacramento area and works at UC Davis,
> the one who has the citrus trees and the dogs, and who's been baking a lot
> recently. You know... the *cute* one! :-)
>
> Does http://www.recfoodcooking.com/mug/shot/TammyM.jpg ring a bell?
>
Apparently there are two Tammy's... I thought we just had one.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:41:07 -0500, George >
wrote:

> On 2/27/2010 7:37 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> > Stu wrote:
> >>
> >> Here they are technically laid off for the summer with recall in
> >> September, as well they have to have a minimum number of hours put in
> >> to collect ( I think the minimum is 700) .
> >
> > Around here they are not "technically laid off". They are on yearly
> > contracts, and as long as their contracts are in force they are employed
> > and do not qualify for unemployment insurance. teaching assistants,
> > OTOH, are laid off for the summer.
>
> According to my friend's wife who used to work in the unemployment
> office teachers used to be able to simply show up and declare they were
> out of work because of a "forced lock out" and then get both
> unemployment and their salary.
>
> Maybe the word got out or someone realized teachers got a yearly salary
> and the summer vacation was a paid vacation not a "forced lock out"

There are two types of teachers, tenured and untenured. Tenured
teachers do not qualify for unemployment insurance because they have
job to go back to. Untenured teachers are effectively laid off for
the summer with no guarantee of a job in the Fall. Maybe there's a
position promised to them for the Fall, but no guarantee goes with
it... at least that's the way California rolls. Summer is *not* paid
vacation. It's off the clock. Teachers have opted to spread their
paychecks over 12 months, that's why the uninitiated think it's a paid
vacation.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 22:22:16 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

> sf wrote:
>
> > It's not unemployment insurance. If they are full time teachers,
> > their 10 month salary is spread over 12 months. At least that's the
> > way it worked in my old district.
>
> Is it common for teachers to take summer jobs during that time off? One of
> the math teachers at my high school worked as a pro wrestler during the
> summers, which struck me as a bit unusual.
>
The teachers I knew worked summer school if they could get the gig.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 05:20:35 -0600, Omelet >
wrote:

> School should be year round. I'd like to see the trimester system
> universally adopted. Summer is just a time for kids to get bored and in
> to trouble imho.

I so agree with year round school. It also means less review and
reteach for teachers.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:43:36 +0100, Bogbrush >
wrote:

> As for teachers paid vacations - they deserve it. Its a thankless task
> in the main and the hours they put in during the term would shock you.

True - teachers need a time to decompress, but year round school
calendars have decent breaks built in. If you attended college on a
quarter or trimester system, you'd know all about it.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:27:32 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

> sf wrote:
>
> >> Of all the people I know who teach I can't think of any who went near
> >> their school during the summer. As far as I can tell they only need to
> >> show a few days before classes begin.
> >
> > Sounds like they were not tenured.
>
> ...because as we all know, tenure *improves* the work ethic of educators.
>
<shrug> I call it prudent. They do not have a job until they sign a
contract.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:41:22 -0500, George >
wrote:

> On 2/28/2010 1:30 AM, sf wrote:
> > On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:01:43 -0500, >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I guess it depends. My former neighbor had a motor home and they
> >> disappeared for the summer, my buddies brother has a custom deck
> >> business, my uncle travels, my cousins two kids travel all summer, my
> >> other friend's brother had a painting business. Of all the people I know
> >> who teach I can't think of any who went near their school during the
> >> summer. As far as I can tell they only need to show a few days before
> >> classes begin.
> >
> > Sounds like they were not tenured.
> >
>
> Sure they were. What would that have to do with how they use their
> summer vacation time?

It's their summer. They can spend it the way they want. If you're
that jealous, become a teacher so you can goof off just the way you
think they do.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:09:10 -0600, George Shirley
> wrote:

> Om: email me off group, I was an NRA instructor for over 20 years and a
> classroom teacher (college) for at least one semester. *Decided academia
> wasn't for me, I was far to conservative to ever make a full professor.

You'll have better tips than I would concerning the curriculum.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Ranée at Arabian Knits wrote:

>> When my son was in high school I used to chaperon the ski club trips
>> every Friday night in the winter. One teacher used to go along every
>> week. We left the school at 3 pm travel across the border, get back t 1
>> or 2 am. That was 10 hours extra he put in. In any other job he would
>> have got time and a half for that 10 hours.
>
> The point several of us have been trying to make, unsuccessfully, it
> seems, is that it is patently untrue that in any other job he would have
> gotten time and a half. Salaried people don't get over time, in my
> experience and knowledge. That's part of the trade off with a salary.
> Teachers are salaried. Therefore, they don't get over time. On top of
> that, teachers and other public sector workers get paid, on average,
> more than private sector workers, have better benefits, and usually more
> job security. This is not something to complain about, in the opinions
> of many in the private sector.

Okay... in most other jobs. Anyone paid an hourly rate would get OT.

People seem to expect that teachers are obligated to volunteer for
extraciriccular activities. I have read lots of examples of people
being called in at all hours of the night to deal with problems on the
job. What I am not seeing is examples of salaried people being expected
to coach kid teams, to chaperon dances and trips etc.

>
> Nobody we know on a salary, and in none of the salaried jobs Rich has
> had, is overtime given for something outside normal hours. None. Often
> they don't even get to take a couple hours off on another day in
> exchange. This is life with a salaried job.

That is the life of middle management. You get paid more but you get the
added responsibility that often involves extra work. You get good
managers and bad managers. If you are a really good manager you don't
run into a lot of the problems that lead to the phone calls and call
ins. My father had an upper management job and he rarely got calls or
had to go in on weekends at night. He ran things well enough that they
didn't have problems, or when they did have problems the on duty
supervisors could deal with it themselves. Good managers hire and train
people so that they can get the job done on their own.


> I'm all for valuing teachers and paying them well. I think it's
> great that they have good benefits. I don't want to hear about how
> tough they have it when they have to do what everyone else does already.
> Especially when private school teachers do the same level of work, the
> same outside hours prep and grading and extracurricular activities on
> about half the pay with fewer benefits.

I don't hear a lot of teachers around here complaining that they are
hard done by. What I do hear is a lot of people whining about how soft
they have it. They are under the impression that teachers work 5 or 6
hours a day and get two and a half months vacation. That just isn't the
case for most teachers. There is at least twice as much time spent on
lesson preparation, marking and record keeping as there is classroom time.

>

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:38:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Steve Pope) wrote:

> sf > wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:19:31 +0000 (UTC),
>
> >> Just make everyone pay the same tax and get rid of these
> >> one-off preferences.
>
> >Teachers are paying into their own retirement fund.
>
> Yes, and so am I. Yet I must by law pay SS tax even
> if I don't want to. And yes, it is a large amount of
> tax, larger than federal income tax unless I have a
> better than average year.
>
> >The railroad used
> >to do that too... with much better benefits than teaching. I don't
> >know what rr retirement is now.
>
> The trend is towards whittling down these non-payers of SS tax,
> eventually it will be gotten rid of and there will be a uniform
> tax that everyone pays. The exception for teachers and RR workers
> is not sustainable.
>
You will have your own retirement funds plus social security.
Teachers and RR do not pay into social security and do not draw it
after retirement.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.