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"sf" > wrote
> Summer is *not* paid
> vacation. It's off the clock. Teachers have opted to spread their
> paychecks over 12 months, that's why the uninitiated think it's a paid
> vacation.


True that, but what most people see is that teachers have off from work for
two months; traditional jobs do not allow for that. You have to look at the
entire package. If you like the work, accept the wages, like the
conditions, everyone is happy. Same with any career or profession.

I've taught a couple of classes, but they were for adults, not kids. Pay
was poor for what I did, but money was not the motivator, it was something I
wanted to do. I have no desire to teach a classroom of children.

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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:46:35 -0500, "cybercat" >
wrote:

> I have to say, this has been a very interesting discussion. I agree that
> teachers have been underpaid and underappreciated for a long time, but as a
> state employee I got really sick and tired of hearing that nobody but the
> teachers would get raises most years.


I know how state employees fare. My husband was one before he went
into his own business. 2% raises are a joke, and living on the same
salary for four years in a row with a growing family whose needs
increase as they get older is worse. With work furloughs (less take
home pay), now it's a slap in the face.

Back to teaching. California often varies from the rest of the
country varies, but CA has treated teachers fairly for years... they
wouldn't have done it w/o a teacher's union though. CA teachers are
not the highest paid in the nation and CA spending per pupil was 49th
out of 50 the last time I checked. Since teacher salaries are built
into that number, it's a dismal state of affairs. Anyway - with
raises in salary, come other increases like the contribution to
medical for families, so those nifty raises often don't appear very
large on the bottom line. Also, an increase in paper work comes with
those raises. Your family is probably all to willing to tell you
about that. I said for years that I didn't want another raise, I just
wanted a secretary.

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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 00:56:08 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

> George wrote:
>
> > almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really do
> > something stupid

>
> A good second-grade teacher would have taught you the difference between
> "loose" and "lose."
>


He already said he wouldn't have made it to full professor. Not many
do.


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"Omelet" > wrote in message
news
> In article >,
> Bogbrush > wrote:
>
>> > School should be year round. I'd like to see the trimester system
>> > universally adopted. Summer is just a time for kids to get bored and
>> > in
>> > to trouble imho.

>>
>> Ye gods. What a small minded person you are. Long summer vacations are
>> the periods when young minds grow and characters are born. Factory
>> herding kids through school 50 weeks a year would produce a load of
>> nasty little clones.

>
> Better than a bunch of bored gangland dropout/delinquents!
> --
> Peace! Om
>



Unfortunately you find them all year-round, not just during the summer.
Summer doesn't cause it, and summer off sure won't cure it.

Jinx


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"George" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/27/2010 7:37 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> Stu wrote:
>>>
>>> Here they are technically laid off for the summer with recall in
>>> September, as well they have to have a minimum number of hours put in
>>> to collect ( I think the minimum is 700) .

>>
>> Around here they are not "technically laid off". They are on yearly
>> contracts, and as long as their contracts are in force they are employed
>> and do not qualify for unemployment insurance. teaching assistants,
>> OTOH, are laid off for the summer.

>
> According to my friend's wife who used to work in the unemployment office
> teachers used to be able to simply show up and declare they were out of
> work because of a "forced lock out" and then get both unemployment and
> their salary.
>



I don't buy it. No unemployment office signs you up for benefits without
checking with your last employer for the reason for being discharged. If
that were the case, every fired slack-assed bum in the U.S. would be
collecting. Additionally, unless you lie (easy enough for people to do),
you cannot collect both a paycheck and an unemployment check at the same
time. That would be next to impossible to conceal if you're paying state
taxes on your earnings since the UI office does periodic checks. Completely
possible (and common, I'm sure) if you're getting paid cash under the table,
however.

Jinx




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"Dave Smith" > wrote
> I don't hear a lot of teachers around here complaining that they are hard
> done by. What I do hear is a lot of people whining about how soft they
> have it. They are under the impression that teachers work 5 or 6 hours a
> day and get two and a half months vacation. That just isn't the case for
> most teachers. There is at least twice as much time spent on lesson
> preparation, marking and record keeping as there is classroom time.
>


At one time, teachers were very under paid. It was pathetic and they
deserved much more and got a lot of sympathy (but not dollars) from the rest
of the world. In most states, teacher's wages have increased to a
respectable level and they have the added benefit of extended summer time
away from work.

Thee is also the jealousy factor for the time off. Very few of us can take
more that two weeks away at a time. We don't get spring break, etc.

Teachers do deserve a fair pay and it is not an easy job. Like any other
career, it was a choice made by the teacher. Some leave and get private
sector jobs, some continue and do wonderful things for the kids, some hang
around so they get a pension and don't care about motivation in the
classroom, some just like to whine. No different than any other profession.

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George wrote:

>> When my son was in high school I used to chaperon the ski club trips
>> every Friday night in the winter. One teacher used to go along every
>> week. We left the school at 3 pm travel across the border, get back t 1
>> or 2 am. That was 10 hours extra he put in. In any other job he would
>> have got time and a half for that 10 hours.
>>

>
> I think you are missing the difference between an hourly worker and a
> salaried worker. Folks who work for a salary do whatever falls into the
> scope of their job for that salary. An hourly worker has their time
> tracked and is subject to wage and hour laws.
>
> For what you described the teacher was doing something that was fully
> within the scope of their employment


It sounds more like babysitting to me. If they need chaperons they could
use parents.


>

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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 09:42:07 GMT, Janet Baraclough
> wrote:

> The message >
> from Ranée at Arabian Knits > contains these words:
>
> > Especially when private school teachers do the same level of work, the
> > same outside hours prep and grading and extracurricular activities on
> > about half the pay with fewer benefits.

>
> If that is true, how on earth do private schools in the US ever
> attract staff?
>

For starters they don't have to deal with the level of behavior
problems public school teachers have to deal with. If a kid is a real
PITA or won't do the work, they're out... to public school. People
make a conscious decision to teach in private schools. How long they
stay depends on their other means of support, if they have any.
Private schools around here have been trying to come up to semi-parity
with public schools by raising salaries, offering medical and a
retirement package (attracting teachers is the easy part, retaining
them is harder). All that comes at a price, yearly tuition is
$25,000+.

--
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On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:01:12 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> wrote:

> And if you ban general aviation then where are your airline pilots going
> to come from?


From the military, they way they should.

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"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 05:20:35 -0600, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
>> School should be year round. I'd like to see the trimester system
>> universally adopted. Summer is just a time for kids to get bored and in
>> to trouble imho.

>
> I so agree with year round school. It also means less review and
> reteach for teachers.
>

Lots of teachers hate it. Parents too. They like their summers off.




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Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
> "Dave Smith" > wrote
>> I don't hear a lot of teachers around here complaining that they are
>> hard done by. What I do hear is a lot of people whining about how soft
>> they have it. They are under the impression that teachers work 5 or 6
>> hours a day and get two and a half months vacation. That just isn't
>> the case for most teachers. There is at least twice as much time spent
>> on lesson preparation, marking and record keeping as there is
>> classroom time.
>>

>
> At one time, teachers were very under paid. It was pathetic and they
> deserved much more and got a lot of sympathy (but not dollars) from the
> rest of the world. In most states, teacher's wages have increased to a
> respectable level and they have the added benefit of extended summer
> time away from work.
>
> Thee is also the jealousy factor for the time off. Very few of us can
> take more that two weeks away at a time. We don't get spring break, etc.
>
> Teachers do deserve a fair pay and it is not an easy job. Like any
> other career, it was a choice made by the teacher. Some leave and get
> private sector jobs, some continue and do wonderful things for the kids,
> some hang around so they get a pension and don't care about motivation
> in the classroom, some just like to whine. No different than any other
> profession.


I've been reading all of this with interest. Both my wife and my
daughter are teachers, both work more hours than most other
professionals for a lot less pay.

Example: My wife is a half-time art teacher, she's supposed to work 0800
to 1200. It's more like 0730 to whenever, she is seldom home before
1600. She is the only art teacher in an elementary school with over 300
children, she sees them all during the course of a week as they come to
her classroom. A classroom teacher sees only the kids in her class. So,
the classroom teacher has maybe 20 to 26 papers to grade each day,
making say 100 papers a week. My wife has more than 300 papers a week to
grade, enter into her grade book, and then prepare to return to the
student. Of course she only gets half of a months salary for someone
with her tenure for doing all of this.

Why does she do it? Pretty simple as to why any dedicated teacher does
it, she thinks she is making a difference for those kids. Same with my
daughter who is now an assistant principal, one of two assistant
principals in an elementary school with over 400 students, mostly
Hispanic. She walks the halls all day trying to maintain order and then
stays until 1900 trying to get the paperwork done, schedule parent
meetings, decide on disciplinary actions, etc., etc.

Salaries, pensions, benefits, etc. for teachers is not something you can
talk about unless you're familiar with that particular system. Another
example: Texas, where our daughter teaches, has independent school
districts, maybe several in a large county. Louisiana, where my wife
teaches, has one school system per parish (read county in states where
they don't have the idiotic Napoleonic code).

The real problem with school teachers is who they work for - the kids
and the parents who don't give a damn if their sorry ass kids go to
school, eat a meal, can speak English, or any of the other reasons
people just ignore, abuse in several ways, or punish their kids.

Until you're married to a teacher or have one for a relative or a close
friend you don't get to see the tears, frustration, and anguish a GOOD
teacher goes through when they see a sexually abused five-year old, a
nine-year old with a burn scar on her face because Momma decided to
punish her while she was ironing, or the one who has PTSD because of a
sorry family life. Some of the luckiest kids are those being raised by a
grandparent or parents or an elder relative who loves them and sees they
are fed, clothed, and protected.

Rant off: you gotta be or live with a teacher to understand.
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On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:19:15 +0000 (UTC), Steve Pope wrote:

> The Ranger > wrote:
>
>>When you're job requires you to attend events beyond working hours, do you
>>work them for free?

>
> In my case, yes, I volunteer my time and travel expenses
> to serve as secretary for a professional society. This is not
> a low-cost proposition. I know many professionals who volunteer
> their time. For example, virtually every tax accountant I
> know volunteers time preparing returns for seniors and/or
> disadvantaged persons.
>
> Teachers for sure do their share of unpaid professionally-related
> work, but so do people in every other profession unless they are
> mindless punching a timeclock.
>
> Now, you could say there's a career-advancement motive, but this
> is equally true for teachers. If you're not seen as doing anything
> extra, you get dinged. That's the way the system works.
>
> Steve


ahem. you 'volunteer' your time. i'm not sure for teachers, it's exactly
'volunteering.'

your pal,
blake
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"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:01:12 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> > wrote:
>
>> And if you ban general aviation then where are your airline pilots going
>> to come from?

>
> From the military, they way they should.
>

You'd better reinstate the draft then. Not enough military pilots to fill
the need these days. Not enough pilots with enough hours from any source.
Those commuter lines have some pretty raw talent up front. They make less
money than teachers too, jet have hundreds of lives in their not so
experienced hands.

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On 2/28/2010 10:06 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:41:07 -0500, >
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/27/2010 7:37 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> Stu wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Here they are technically laid off for the summer with recall in
>>>> September, as well they have to have a minimum number of hours put in
>>>> to collect ( I think the minimum is 700) .
>>>
>>> Around here they are not "technically laid off". They are on yearly
>>> contracts, and as long as their contracts are in force they are employed
>>> and do not qualify for unemployment insurance. teaching assistants,
>>> OTOH, are laid off for the summer.

>>
>> According to my friend's wife who used to work in the unemployment
>> office teachers used to be able to simply show up and declare they were
>> out of work because of a "forced lock out" and then get both
>> unemployment and their salary.
>>
>> Maybe the word got out or someone realized teachers got a yearly salary
>> and the summer vacation was a paid vacation not a "forced lock out"

>
> There are two types of teachers, tenured and untenured. Tenured
> teachers do not qualify for unemployment insurance because they have
> job to go back to. Untenured teachers are effectively laid off for
> the summer with no guarantee of a job in the Fall. Maybe there's a
> position promised to them for the Fall, but no guarantee goes with
> it... at least that's the way California rolls. Summer is *not* paid
> vacation. It's off the clock. Teachers have opted to spread their
> paychecks over 12 months, that's why the uninitiated think it's a paid
> vacation.
>


According to my friend's wife unemployment used to apply to all teachers
because of the "forced lock out". PA was a very strong union state and
this may have been a loophole because of really old labor battles that
is now closed.

In my state the teachers employment contract specifies an annual pay
rate. It also specifies what is required of them. It requires them to
report for work for 37 weeks and it makes no demands for the other 15
weeks.

In every job I have ever had it worked exactly the same way. They made a
salary offer which defined how much they would pay me for a calendar
year. Then they defined that I would need to be there for 50 weeks and
that I would not need to be there for two weeks. So was I on paid
vacation or not for those two weeks?
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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 09:42:07 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote:

> The message >
> from Ranée at Arabian Knits > contains these words:
>
>> Especially when private school teachers do the same level of work, the
>> same outside hours prep and grading and extracurricular activities on
>> about half the pay with fewer benefits.

>
> If that is true, how on earth do private schools in the US ever
> attract staff?
>
>
> Janet


i beleive (but won't research it) that the private schools credentialing is
a little looser than that for public schools (i.e., an education degree and
some kind of degree or certificate in the subject area).

your pal,
blake


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On 2/28/2010 10:23 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:41:22 -0500, >
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/28/2010 1:30 AM, sf wrote:
>>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:01:43 -0500, >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I guess it depends. My former neighbor had a motor home and they
>>>> disappeared for the summer, my buddies brother has a custom deck
>>>> business, my uncle travels, my cousins two kids travel all summer, my
>>>> other friend's brother had a painting business. Of all the people I know
>>>> who teach I can't think of any who went near their school during the
>>>> summer. As far as I can tell they only need to show a few days before
>>>> classes begin.
>>>
>>> Sounds like they were not tenured.
>>>

>>
>> Sure they were. What would that have to do with how they use their
>> summer vacation time?

>
> It's their summer. They can spend it the way they want. If you're
> that jealous, become a teacher so you can goof off just the way you
> think they do.
>

Nothing to do with being jealous. Just getting tired of folks who have a
15 week paid vacation, great benefits and a salary comparable to private
enterprise assuming the same educational level complaining how bad they
have it. Do you just imagine that folks who work in private enterprise
hang around the coffee pot all day and have zero stress and
responsibility?
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On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:53:07 -0800, Dan Abel wrote:

> In article >,
> Dave Smith > wrote:
>
>>>> Around here, teachers are on salary. They don't get paid to attend
>>>> school events.

>
>> Teachers around here do all sorts of extra job related things without
>> compensation. They have parent teacher nights, award ceremonies,
>> chaperon dances etc. and get no remuneration at all.
>>
>> When my son was in high school I used to chaperon the ski club trips
>> every Friday night in the winter. One teacher used to go along every
>> week. We left the school at 3 pm travel across the border, get back t 1
>> or 2 am. That was 10 hours extra he put in. In any other job he would
>> have got time and a half for that 10 hours.

>
> I don't know how it works in Canada, but in the US, employees are
> divided into two categories, "exempt" and "non-exempt", based on whether
> they are covered by FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act), a federal law that
> covers all employees in the US, whether public or private. I don't know
> exactly how to tell who is which, but the government knows. It is
> basically wage earner vs salaried, white collar vs blue collar,
> management vs non-management and professional vs non-professional. A
> non-exempt employee who is required to work 10 additional hours will
> generally be paid time and a half for those hours. A salaried employee
> *has* no hourly rate, so how do you pay them time and a half anyway?
>
> So that "In any other job he would have got time and a half" would
> generally not apply to teachers, because they are salaried white collar
> professionals.


most of my career was quasi-government (the smithsonian) and county
government. typically, overtime was handled by awarding 'compensatory
time' - i.e., hours added to personal leave. however, you are limited in
the amount you can carry over from one year to the next, and if the
exigencies of work prevent you from taking that time - well, too bad. we
tried.

your pal,
blake
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On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:36:47 -0500, Nancy Young wrote:

> George Leppla wrote:
>> Nancy Young wrote:

>
>>> A lot of jobs have that kind of extra hour stuff going on. For us,
>>> it was being beeped in the middle of the night when some computer job
>>> bombed, or working around the clock during year end and W2
>>> crunch time. Got a meeting in Chicago? Travel on your own time.
>>> None of these were for extra pay unless you were an entry level
>>> programmer. It was just part of your profession and you did it.

>
>> You want really great hours... own your own business. I have had
>> calls at 11 PM from people who thought that Shreveport, LA meant
>> Shreveport was in Los Angeles and in the Pacific Time Zone.. I've
>> had calls on every major holiday including Christmas and late night
>> calls from people who bought their cruise from someone else and
>> couldn't get them on the phone... so they called me with their
>> questions/problems. <vbg>
>>
>> Good thing I like doing what I do.

>
> (laugh) I don't mind working hard, but I'm far too lazy to own my own
> business or be a nurse. Those two strike me as being more than I
> am up for. But I'm sure being your own boss has its rewards.
>
> nancy


but then who do you blame for stupid business moves?

your pal,
blake
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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 02:34:02 +0000 (UTC), Steve Pope wrote:

> J. Clarke > wrote:
>
>> And if you ban general aviation then where are your airline pilots
>> going to come from?

>
> Used to be they all started in the military. Has that changed
> now? I suppose it has.
>
> Steve


there was a problem with the pilots bombing and strafing cleveland.

your pal,
blake
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On 2/28/2010 11:01 AM, Jinx Minx wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2/27/2010 7:37 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> Stu wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Here they are technically laid off for the summer with recall in
>>>> September, as well they have to have a minimum number of hours put in
>>>> to collect ( I think the minimum is 700) .
>>>
>>> Around here they are not "technically laid off". They are on yearly
>>> contracts, and as long as their contracts are in force they are employed
>>> and do not qualify for unemployment insurance. teaching assistants,
>>> OTOH, are laid off for the summer.

>>
>> According to my friend's wife who used to work in the unemployment office
>> teachers used to be able to simply show up and declare they were out of
>> work because of a "forced lock out" and then get both unemployment and
>> their salary.
>>

>
>
> I don't buy it. No unemployment office signs you up for benefits without
> checking with your last employer for the reason for being discharged. If
> that were the case, every fired slack-assed bum in the U.S. would be
> collecting. Additionally, unless you lie (easy enough for people to do),
> you cannot collect both a paycheck and an unemployment check at the same
> time. That would be next to impossible to conceal if you're paying state
> taxes on your earnings since the UI office does periodic checks. Completely
> possible (and common, I'm sure) if you're getting paid cash under the table,
> however.
>
> Jinx
>
>

Whats not to believe? According to whatever regulations applied at the
time if your employer forcibly prevented you (think of an en masse type
think similar to a strike) from being able to enter your workplace you
were able to collect unemployment.

As far as verification the employment office could easily verify that
the schools had in fact been locked for the summer vacation.


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On 2/28/2010 12:30 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:01:12 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> And if you ban general aviation then where are your airline pilots going
>>> to come from?

>>
>> From the military, they way they should.
>>

> You'd better reinstate the draft then. Not enough military pilots to
> fill the need these days. Not enough pilots with enough hours from any
> source. Those commuter lines have some pretty raw talent up front. They
> make less money than teachers too, jet have hundreds of lives in their
> not so experienced hands.


Yep, the young man who was flying the walmart airlines Dash 8 that went
down in Buffalo last year killing all 49 passengers had only logged
something like 12 hours more than was required for the rating he had. I
am sure both he and the girl who was flying right seat were well meaning
good folks but they just didn't have the experience. Walmart airlines
just expected too much for $19,000.
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On 2/28/2010 3:56 AM, Bob Terwilliger wrote:
> George wrote:
>
>> almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really do
>> something stupid

>
> A good second-grade teacher would have taught you the difference between
> "loose" and "lose."
>
> Bob


Sorry, didn't realize this was something more than a casual discussion
group. Did you find any other errors aside from the typo?
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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:08:08 -0800, sf wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 22:22:16 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> > wrote:
>
>> sf wrote:
>>
>>> It's not unemployment insurance. If they are full time teachers,
>>> their 10 month salary is spread over 12 months. At least that's the
>>> way it worked in my old district.

>>
>> Is it common for teachers to take summer jobs during that time off? One of
>> the math teachers at my high school worked as a pro wrestler during the
>> summers, which struck me as a bit unusual.
>>

> The teachers I knew worked summer school if they could get the gig.


don't a lot of teachers spend the summers fulfilling 'continuing education'
(their own, not students') or 'professional development' requirements?

your pal,
blake
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On Feb 27, 4:18*pm, George > wrote:
> On 2/27/2010 2:51 PM, sf wrote:> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:34:37 -0500, >
> > wrote:

>
> >> The union contract requires that there be a minimum of two teachers at
> >> any event and they must get at least $150/each. That includes fund
> >> raisers, sports etc.

>
> > It's work. *You don't work for free, why should teachers?

>
> Of course not. But that is what distinguishes a professional from an
> hourly worker. Professionals get a salary and do whatever their employer
> requires. Can't have it both ways.


George,

Here in California, if a teacher takes home tests to grade, comes back
late from a field trip, you name it, they are not paid extra. They
are on salary. But if a teacher leaves ten minutes early because
their child is sick, they are docked. They are then paid hourly.

So things can be had both ways. But in the teachers' case, it's the
school district that has it both ways.

A teacher's job is not hell, but they are treated with a great deal of
disrespect.

Ken

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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:23:10 -0800, sf wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:41:22 -0500, George >
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/28/2010 1:30 AM, sf wrote:
>>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:01:43 -0500, >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I guess it depends. My former neighbor had a motor home and they
>>>> disappeared for the summer, my buddies brother has a custom deck
>>>> business, my uncle travels, my cousins two kids travel all summer, my
>>>> other friend's brother had a painting business. Of all the people I know
>>>> who teach I can't think of any who went near their school during the
>>>> summer. As far as I can tell they only need to show a few days before
>>>> classes begin.
>>>
>>> Sounds like they were not tenured.
>>>

>>
>> Sure they were. What would that have to do with how they use their
>> summer vacation time?

>
> It's their summer. They can spend it the way they want. If you're
> that jealous, become a teacher so you can goof off just the way you
> think they do.


exactly.

a lot of this thread seems like other threads about people living the life
of riley on welfare and food stamps 'whereas *i* work my fingers to the
bone for a pittance (two-thirds of which is taken from me at gunpoint by
jack-booted thugs from the i.r.s), *and* i floss my teeth twice a day.'

your pal,
blake


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On Feb 28, 10:09*am, blake murphy > wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:08:08 -0800, sf wrote:
> > On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 22:22:16 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> > > wrote:

>
> >> sf wrote:

>
> >>> It's not unemployment insurance. *If they are full time teachers,
> >>> their 10 month salary is spread over 12 months. *At least that's the
> >>> way it worked in my old district.

>
> >> Is it common for teachers to take summer jobs during that time off? One of
> >> the math teachers at my high school worked as a pro wrestler during the
> >> summers, which struck me as a bit unusual.

>
> > The teachers I knew worked summer school if they could get the gig.

>
> don't a lot of teachers spend the summers fulfilling 'continuing education'
> (their own, not students') or 'professional development' requirements?


That's dependent on the school district and their policies. The
teachers I know all try and work summer school with any specific
professional development fit in after. The districts near me try and
streamline the process during the regular school year so they can tell
the state and federal agencies that X-% of their teachers have Y-
amount of professional development completed.

The Ranger
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On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:19:48 -0800, Ranee at Arabian Knits wrote:

> In article >,
> sf > wrote:
>
>> So, teachers have not given up collective bargaining but now they're
>> the bad guys because they have better medical (for themselves, not
>> their families) and retirement than those who thought it was just
>> ducky to give up all their perks so they could be private contractors
>> and pull fatter checks? Don't forget, teachers do not pay into social
>> security so they will not be collecting it unless they had a career
>> and paid into ss before they started teaching. Let's assume they did
>> have a previous career and did pay into social security. They will be
>> penalized for collecting.

>
> I didn't say they were bad guys. I think they have a very skewed
> understanding of how the workplace is for salaried people across the
> board. As for SS? I wish we had every dollar we paid into it to start
> fires in the winter. It's more than we will see at retirement.


sorry, this puts you squarely in nutball territory.

blake
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On 2/28/2010 11:47 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:01:12 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> > wrote:
>
>> And if you ban general aviation then where are your airline pilots going
>> to come from?

>
> From the military, they way they should.
>


Most pilots come from civilian flight schools. There may have been a big
influx of ex-military after the Vietnam war but not since.

This outfit is the big one for pilot training but there are others:

http://www.erau.edu/


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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:46:35 -0500, cybercat wrote:

> "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "sf" > wrote
>>> Don't forget, teachers do not pay into social
>>> security so they will not be collecting it unless they had a career
>>> and paid into ss before they started teaching. Let's assume they did
>>> have a previous career and did pay into social security. They will be
>>> penalized for collecting.

>>
>> Most of us would rather have the teacher's pension than SS. We don't have
>> the luxury of that.

>
> I have to say, this has been a very interesting discussion. I agree that
> teachers have been underpaid and underappreciated for a long time, but as a
> state employee I got really sick and tired of hearing that nobody but the
> teachers would get raises most years. Or we would get a 2.5% cost of living
> and they got 4%. Or we all got to take to extra weeks of vacation in lieu of
> a cash raise and they got a raise.
>
> That said, two of my four sisters are teachers, and I would not do it for
> any amount of money. Squeezed between asshole parents, asshole
> administrators, and far too many asshole children who have not fallen very
> far from the asshole tree.


dear god, yes. i've had one or two asshole bosses, but not so many asshole
'clients,' and certainly didn't have to deal with their parents who often
looked at me like i was some kind of menial and their dopey kid was some
kind of precious flower.

your pal,
blake
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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 00:56:08 -0800, Bob Terwilliger wrote:

> George wrote:
>
>> almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really do
>> something stupid

>
> A good second-grade teacher would have taught you the difference between
> "loose" and "lose."
>
> Bob


after reading much at all on the intarwebs, we can posit that there aren't
many good second-grade teachers. the 'loosers' can't all be typos.

your pal,
blake


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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 10:24:49 +0100, Bogbrush wrote:

> "Bob Terwilliger" > writes:
>
>> George wrote:
>>
>>> almost no chance they can loose their job except if they really do
>>> something stupid

>>
>> A good second-grade teacher would have taught you the difference between
>> "loose" and "lose."
>>
>> Bob

>
> And a fellow moron could explain to you the concept of a typo.


and anyone paying attention would realize it's more often a misspelling
than a typo. otherwise, you'd be seeing 'llose' or 'losse' more often than
you do 'loose' for 'lose.'

blake
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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 10:44:09 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
> wrote:

> True that, but what most people see is that teachers have off from work for
> two months; traditional jobs do not allow for that. You have to look at the
> entire package. If you like the work, accept the wages, like the
> conditions, everyone is happy. Same with any career or profession.


Actually, they do. My son (I think DD does too) has six weeks
vacation now. I imagine he'll get 8 weeks with his next promotion.
>
> I've taught a couple of classes, but they were for adults, not kids. Pay
> was poor for what I did, but money was not the motivator, it was something I
> wanted to do. I have no desire to teach a classroom of children.


Me either.

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sf > wrote:

>The union (in Cal) has worked hard for teachers not to be underpaid.
>The public's beef now seems to be that they have better benefits and
>retirement than the average worker.


According to a Pew Research Foundation study released about
ten days ago, the average state employee nationwide is looking for
a $106,000 bailout to make up for the fact that they have underfunded
their pension and healthcare plans. One can assume the average
is a higher number in California. They did not tally up
figures for federal, local, and school district employees but
they believe the numbers are probably similar for those cases. The
total hoped-for bailout is $1.6 trillion, just for the state employees;
since state employees are around 40% of public employees, the grand
total anticipated bailout is around $3 trillion.

Pew's recommendation, with which I agree, is to reform the
system to avoid this hole growing even larger.

Whereas public employees in California routinely hire lobbyists to
argue against any reform. I understand why they do this, but
it is pretty short-sighted, and in my view fuels the polarity
between the employees and the taxpayers.

Steve
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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:09:02 -0500, blake murphy
> wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:08:08 -0800, sf wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 22:22:16 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> sf wrote:
> >>
> >>> It's not unemployment insurance. If they are full time teachers,
> >>> their 10 month salary is spread over 12 months. At least that's the
> >>> way it worked in my old district.
> >>
> >> Is it common for teachers to take summer jobs during that time off? One of
> >> the math teachers at my high school worked as a pro wrestler during the
> >> summers, which struck me as a bit unusual.
> >>

> > The teachers I knew worked summer school if they could get the gig.

>
> don't a lot of teachers spend the summers fulfilling 'continuing education'
> (their own, not students') or 'professional development' requirements?
>

Usually those are teachers that have requirements to meet or are
looking at getting out of the classroom so they need some specialty
classes for advancement. PD during the school year covers a lot of
day to day needs to satisfy the continuing ed requirement. School is
180 days, teachers are paid for 184 (here). Those four days are spent
in PD, plus there are other PD opportunities during the rest of the
school year.

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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:36:30 -0600, Omelet >
wrote:

> In article >,
> Bogbrush > wrote:
>
> > > School should be year round. I'd like to see the trimester system
> > > universally adopted. Summer is just a time for kids to get bored and in
> > > to trouble imho.

> >
> > Ye gods. What a small minded person you are. Long summer vacations are
> > the periods when young minds grow and characters are born. Factory
> > herding kids through school 50 weeks a year would produce a load of
> > nasty little clones.

>
> Better than a bunch of bored gangland dropout/delinquents!


It's not 50 weeks a year. The year is broken up differently, that's
all. I'd like to see a longer school year in terms of days too, but
watch how fast John Q Public backpedals on that idea when presented
with the bill.

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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:19:05 -0500, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 05:20:35 -0600, Omelet >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> School should be year round. I'd like to see the trimester system
> >> universally adopted. Summer is just a time for kids to get bored and in
> >> to trouble imho.

> >
> > I so agree with year round school. It also means less review and
> > reteach for teachers.
> >

> Lots of teachers hate it. Parents too. They like their summers off.
>

You know what they say about dogs and tricks. It was a big jolt for
me to have school begin before Labor Day... and I was just a parent at
that time. Our traditional week before Labor Day vacation up at Lake
Tahoe with friends and their families ceased due to that little kink.
We got over it. Frankly, after that I didn't care when school started
as long as it ended by June 1. June 1 is still a pipe dream.

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Stu wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:37:25 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> Stu wrote:
>>> Here they are technically laid off for the summer with recall in
>>> September, as well they have to have a minimum number of hours put in
>>> to collect ( I think the minimum is 700) .

>> Around here they are not "technically laid off". They are on yearly
>> contracts, and as long as their contracts are in force they are employed
>> and do not qualify for unemployment insurance. teaching assistants,
>> OTOH, are laid off for the summer.

>
> Yes that may be true, but you're in the USA and I'm not.


I guess that explains the .ca ib mt email address.
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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:45:02 -0500, George >
wrote:

> On 2/28/2010 10:23 AM, sf wrote:
> > On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:41:22 -0500, >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/28/2010 1:30 AM, sf wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:01:43 -0500, >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I guess it depends. My former neighbor had a motor home and they
> >>>> disappeared for the summer, my buddies brother has a custom deck
> >>>> business, my uncle travels, my cousins two kids travel all summer, my
> >>>> other friend's brother had a painting business. Of all the people I know
> >>>> who teach I can't think of any who went near their school during the
> >>>> summer. As far as I can tell they only need to show a few days before
> >>>> classes begin.
> >>>
> >>> Sounds like they were not tenured.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Sure they were. What would that have to do with how they use their
> >> summer vacation time?

> >
> > It's their summer. They can spend it the way they want. If you're
> > that jealous, become a teacher so you can goof off just the way you
> > think they do.
> >

> Nothing to do with being jealous. Just getting tired of folks who have a
> 15 week paid vacation, great benefits and a salary comparable to private
> enterprise assuming the same educational level complaining how bad they
> have it. Do you just imagine that folks who work in private enterprise
> hang around the coffee pot all day and have zero stress and
> responsibility?


Here's a thought. Give teachers the same courtesy you want for
yourself.

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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:36:02 -0500, blake murphy
> wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:19:48 -0800, Ranee at Arabian Knits wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > sf > wrote:
> >
> >> So, teachers have not given up collective bargaining but now they're
> >> the bad guys because they have better medical (for themselves, not
> >> their families) and retirement than those who thought it was just
> >> ducky to give up all their perks so they could be private contractors
> >> and pull fatter checks? Don't forget, teachers do not pay into social
> >> security so they will not be collecting it unless they had a career
> >> and paid into ss before they started teaching. Let's assume they did
> >> have a previous career and did pay into social security. They will be
> >> penalized for collecting.

> >
> > I didn't say they were bad guys. I think they have a very skewed
> > understanding of how the workplace is for salaried people across the
> > board. As for SS? I wish we had every dollar we paid into it to start
> > fires in the winter. It's more than we will see at retirement.

>
> sorry, this puts you squarely in nutball territory.
>

I think she also doesn't realize the number of career change teachers
who salaried professionals in their previous work life.

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George > wrote:

>Its deeper than that. walmart trained everyone that cheap is all that
>matters whatever it actually costs.


>Few people realize that the airplane they are flying in might be flown
>by someone making $19k/year who barely has the qualifications for the
>job because everyone wants cheap. The Dash 8 that went upside down and
>crashed with no survivors last year after they picked up ice is a
>perfect example. Both pilots were extremely low time and one had slept
>on various couches along the way during a day of traveling to get to her
>job.


Yes, once the bean counters took over the airlines from the flyboys
who originally ran them, things have gone down the drain.

>I think banning GA is a little over the top.


Most people would agree but I am in favor of banning many categories
of vehicle use, including most off-road and/or recreational use.
We do not need little airplanes buzzing overhead because it's
somebody's idea of fun. Nor do we need snowmobiles and jetskis.
All of these things detract from quality of life, damage the
environment, and provide no social benefit.

Steve
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