[email protected]©k® wrote:
and there it is, Orlando's chosen prejudice based on Christian
fundamentalism. That and that alone is the basis for all this BS from
Orlando concerning the Jewish faith in all of it's forms.

No fundamentalist Christian prejudices are involved here. Let's simply apply
elementary logic. If the God of the New and Old Testaments is the same, then
belief in God prescribe belief in all His revelations and messianic figures. I
entirely understand why people outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition accept
neither its God nor scriptures. However, for a Jew to reject Jesus as messiah
poses troubling affronts to belief in God. Surely, there are not two Gods, one
for Jews and another for Christians. Surely, if there is only one God, as Jews
acknowledge every day in recitation of the shemaa, it must follow that this one
true God has neither made mistakes or misled the faithful with false teachings.
It therefore follows logically that if God is omniscient, omnipotent and
omnipresent across time and space, His grace and revelations must extend far
beyond the Torah.

You as a Jew, believe wrong, hence Orlando the "Christian" who
supports polyamorous relations in opposition to Christian beliefs is
going to save the Jews from themselves.

Polyamory and polygamy run throughout the Old Testament. Furthermore, polyamory
violates not a single Christian principle.

Orlando

i find these customes/rules/ways of culture and religion fascinating and it
is very rewarding when ellen or another is able to merge culture/religion
and health needs and tells us about it, Lee
"Nicky" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:57:41 -0700, "Ellen K."
wrote:

The only restrictions
are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F

Why that precise figure, Ellen, do you know?

Nicky (intrigued...)

i would never presume to say what is and is not productive in a religion i
am not a participant in, Lee
"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen K. wrote:
I vaguely remember that Protestantism's big innovation was the "faith
alone"
idea, sounds like that's where you are comfortable. Normative Judaism is
about how one lives in *this* world, not about getting into "heaven", but
the "how one lives in this world" includes many concrete aspects of
everyday
life in addition to the very important more abstract ones like the way one
treats other people.

Nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in this world is
diminished
if you kindle a fire on shabat or give God thanks without first eating
bread.
These are man made laws with no practical or spiritual basis other than
the
pleasure in dictating to observant Jews how they should live.

Orlando

you can not nor do you have the right to say what improves my life, religion
or any other aspect, Lee
"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote in message
. ..
Julie Bove wrote:
By the same token, nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in
this world is diminished if you don't take communion. Or eat fish on
Fridays. Or on Christmas Eve. Or don't eat beef. Or... Or... See what
I
mean?

I entirely do. We don't eat any specific foods on specific days. We take
communion in order to get closer to God and each other as worshiping
brethren.
But you're entirely right, the quality of daily life doesn't improve
because of
it.

Orlando

religion is as individual as each of us, and in fact neither group you
mention here, the catholics, Martin luther or my babtist upbringing are
wrong for those who feel closer to g-d for practicing it, in the end noone
can say what is right for another in religion, Lee
"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote in message
. ..
Julie Bove wrote:
By the same token, nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in
this world is diminished if you don't take communion. Or eat fish on
Fridays. Or on Christmas Eve. Or don't eat beef. Or... Or... See what
I
mean?

Most religions intentionally blur the lines between God's laws and Man's
laws,
to the point where the hapless practitioner can't tell the difference.
Some guy
figures out that if he wants to stay king and ensure that right for his
successive generations, the best way to do it is to say that God gave him
the
right to rule. Some rabbi comes up with the idea that the more minutia he
and
his fellow clergy prescribe to orthodox Jews, the more future generations
will
depend on rabbinical wisdom for everything. Some priest comes up with a
link
between Jesus' crucifixion and fish on Fridays, proclaims it as God's law
and
ensures that ignorant Catholics will respect that Man-made tradition for
centuries. I hope you see a pattern here. Religious clergy don't want
people
thinking for themselves; that's why the Bible and Mass were kept in
incomprehensible Latin until Vatican II, and orthodox Jews rarely read the
Torah outside of schul or in translation. The idea is for worshipers not
to
think for themselves via direct access to God's word. Access is mediated
by
language, special scrolls, special churches or synagogue settings. Then,
the
Word is mediated by exegetical or hermeneutic interpretation, which means
worshipers aren't supposed to make whatever they will from direct access
to
God's word; they're supposed to depend on rabbis, theologians, priests,
bishops, popes and even saints to interpret scripture. All this is of
course
nonsense. God has always made His word directly accessible. When the
Jewish
people spoke and wrote Hebrew, He gave them Torah in their own language.
But
when Hebrew ceased being the lingua franca for Jews, they needed rabbis
specially trained in Hebrew to read scripture. The same held true for
Catholics
and Latin scripture until Martin Luther translated the Bible into German.
The
clergy have purposely withheld scriptures from the masses for centuries
because
direct access to scriptures would diminish their choke hold over
worshipers. If
people could read the word autonomously, they might just get the notion
that
all these laws are ridiculous, which we can't have. That's why we have a
situation today where people like Ellen are worried about not being able
to say
meaningful sabbath prayers without first consuming bread. She's only
worried
about this because her rabbis have told her what they take to be God's
final
pronouncement on this matter. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who find
themselves miraculously able to worship meaningfully without eating bread
before sabbath prayers. Either those conservative and reform Jews have got
it
all wrong or just maybe, it is in fact the orthodox Jews whose endless
tomes of
laws keep them imprisoned in anachronistic bubbles and ultimately separate
from
God.

Orlando