"Ellen K." wrote in message
news

"Nicky" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:57:41 -0700, "Ellen K."
wrote:

The only restrictions
are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F

Why that precise figure, Ellen, do you know?

Nicky (intrigued...)

I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself,
however it might be related to the more general rule that in order to
put a cooked solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not
further cook) it on the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a
temperature where a normal person can comfortably rest their hand. So
I would guess maybe it has been determined that somewhere around 45 C
is the highest temperature where a normal person can comfortably rest
their hand.


I remember our Anglican minister from 20 odd years ago. It was ok for
essential services staff to wok on the Sabbath but no one else. He was
very strict on not buying anything from a store on a Sunday because the
store shouldn't even be open. I am afraid I bought Sunday papers, milk
and bread and fuel if necessary and gasp! I cooked on Sundays ... I
don't heed man made rules personally (not of that nature anyway). To me
my "faith" is the most important thing, not the "rules", the threats of
a hell or a need to jump through xyz hoops to get into "heaven". I
believe it was the late Chuck who said I was a fundamentalist, I have no
idea what that means

"Ozgirl" wrote in message
...


"Ellen K." wrote in message
news

"Nicky" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:57:41 -0700, "Ellen K."
wrote:

The only restrictions
are that the milk is not allowed to become hotter than 113 F

Why that precise figure, Ellen, do you know?

Nicky (intrigued...)

I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself, however
it might be related to the more general rule that in order to put a
cooked solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not further
cook) it on the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a temperature where a
normal person can comfortably rest their hand. So I would guess maybe it
has been determined that somewhere around 45 C is the highest temperature
where a normal person can comfortably rest their hand.


I remember our Anglican minister from 20 odd years ago. It was ok for
essential services staff to wok on the Sabbath but no one else. He was
very strict on not buying anything from a store on a Sunday because the
store shouldn't even be open. I am afraid I bought Sunday papers, milk and
bread and fuel if necessary and gasp! I cooked on Sundays ... I don't
heed man made rules personally (not of that nature anyway). To me my
"faith" is the most important thing, not the "rules", the threats of a
hell or a need to jump through xyz hoops to get into "heaven". I believe
it was the late Chuck who said I was a fundamentalist, I have no idea what
that means

Everybody is entitled to follow their own religion, or no religion at all.
I vaguely remember that Protestantism's big innovation was the "faith alone"
idea, sounds like that's where you are comfortable. Normative Judaism is
about how one lives in *this* world, not about getting into "heaven", but
the "how one lives in this world" includes many concrete aspects of everyday
life in addition to the very important more abstract ones like the way one
treats other people.

Ellen K. wrote:

: "Ellen K." wrote in message
: ...
: Welcome to my world, when I got to the butcher that had the grassfed beef
: the only cut they had was a shoulder roast. (Which I'd also never made
: before.) So I bought that.
:
: I made it as planned but my cousin the legendary cook said I *had* to add
: garlic, white pepper and paprika, so I did, but although it was done to
: perfection it didn't taste like much, I think I undersalted and
: underseasoned it.
:

: I made it such that total cooking time was 20 min per pound, the "doneness"
: was exactly right, about "medium rare".

Shoulder rost is one of my favorites. I make it as a dry roasted roast
beef. I do seaon it well before cooking. the day before I rub it all
over with a garlic clove adn put slivers of garlic into slits in the
roast. I also generosly rub it with fresly ground black pepper adn place
some thinly sliced onions all around adn over and under it and refrigerate
it fo rteh night. when cook it, i do put the onions around it in the
open roasting dish adn I lie to ccok it tat a high temperature, abouat 450
so it gets very nicely browned wile staying rare inside. I use a
thermometer to test for doneness. I like it rare. Once it gets to about
120F inside, I remover from teh oven tand pt it on a platter adn tent it
with foil . I then make a gravy by deglazing the pan with all the
browned onion with either plain water or, if I have some around, dry red
wine, making sure to scrape all the goodness from the pan. i will also
add the juice tht collect in the platter while the meat rests. this makes
a wonderful, lean roast beef that makes great sandwiches etcfor the next
day(if anything is left:-)

Notice that I did not mention salt, as I use kosher meat that has been
soaked and salted by the butcher to remove much of the blood from the
meat. Observant jews do not eat this blood because , in the Torah(the
first 5 books of the Bible) is says not to drink th eblood as the blood is
the life. It is a way of constantly letting you know that a life was
given for you to eat and that life should be remembered adn not a bused.

Wendy

Alan S wrote:
That post you just made was a surprise to me. Despite your claims of
brilliance, your insensitivity on the stess/parenting thread and some
of the other silly posts you have made on diabetes I had not picked up
the anti-semitism those four simple words "Jews don't like it" makes
very clear.

I am appalled by your reading of four simple words. If I said, "My mother
doesn't like it," would that mean I'm against my mother? Fact is, many Jews
don't like when legalism in their religion is pointed out. They equate devotion
and orthodoxy with following the letter of the law. It is not at all
antisemitic to advocate liberation from the law.

Orlando

Ellen K. wrote:
Similarly, there is a prohibition against kindling a fire on the sabbath,
but no prohibition to benefit from a pre-existing fire. Broadly one could
say there is a theme of not "creating".

Except that the sabbath can only exist because God creates it from week to
week. So someone is doing the creating.

Orlando

Ellen K. wrote:
I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself, however it
might be related to the more general rule that in order to put a cooked
solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not further cook) it on
the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a temperature where a normal person
can comfortably rest their hand. So I would guess maybe it has been
determined that somewhere around 45 C is the highest temperature where a
normal person can comfortably rest their hand.

Men have made these absurdly legalistic laws oblivious of bacterial issues and
food needing to be hotter than comfortable hand resting temperature. It's a
shame that you are imprisoned by man made laws masquerading as divine
ordinances.

Orlando

Ellen K. wrote:
I vaguely remember that Protestantism's big innovation was the "faith alone"
idea, sounds like that's where you are comfortable. Normative Judaism is
about how one lives in *this* world, not about getting into "heaven", but
the "how one lives in this world" includes many concrete aspects of everyday
life in addition to the very important more abstract ones like the way one
treats other people.

Nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in this world is diminished
if you kindle a fire on shabat or give God thanks without first eating bread.
These are man made laws with no practical or spiritual basis other than the
pleasure in dictating to observant Jews how they should live.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote in message
. ..
Alan S wrote:
That post you just made was a surprise to me. Despite your claims of
brilliance, your insensitivity on the stess/parenting thread and some
of the other silly posts you have made on diabetes I had not picked up
the anti-semitism those four simple words "Jews don't like it" makes
very clear.

I am appalled by your reading of four simple words. If I said, "My mother
doesn't like it," would that mean I'm against my mother? Fact is, many
Jews
don't like when legalism in their religion is pointed out. They equate
devotion
and orthodoxy with following the letter of the law. It is not at all
antisemitic to advocate liberation from the law.

When you phrase it like that, it is.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen K. wrote:
I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself, however
it
might be related to the more general rule that in order to put a cooked
solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not further cook) it on
the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a temperature where a normal person
can comfortably rest their hand. So I would guess maybe it has been
determined that somewhere around 45 C is the highest temperature where a
normal person can comfortably rest their hand.

Men have made these absurdly legalistic laws oblivious of bacterial issues
and
food needing to be hotter than comfortable hand resting temperature. It's
a
shame that you are imprisoned by man made laws masquerading as divine
ordinances.

OMG! This just keeps getting worse and worse.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen K. wrote:
I vaguely remember that Protestantism's big innovation was the "faith
alone"
idea, sounds like that's where you are comfortable. Normative Judaism is
about how one lives in *this* world, not about getting into "heaven", but
the "how one lives in this world" includes many concrete aspects of
everyday
life in addition to the very important more abstract ones like the way one
treats other people.

Nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in this world is
diminished
if you kindle a fire on shabat or give God thanks without first eating
bread.
These are man made laws with no practical or spiritual basis other than
the
pleasure in dictating to observant Jews how they should live.

By the same token, nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in
this world is diminished if you don't take communion. Or eat fish on
Fridays. Or on Christmas Eve. Or don't eat beef. Or... Or... See what I
mean?

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 10:15:10 -0700, "Ellen K."
wrote:

I'm not sure exactly about the temperature of the liquid itself, however it
might be related to the more general rule that in order to put a cooked
solid food on a hot surface in order to warm (but not further cook) it on
the sabbath, the hot surface has to be a temperature where a normal person
can comfortably rest their hand. So I would guess maybe it has been
determined that somewhere around 45 C is the highest temperature where a
normal person can comfortably rest their hand.

Makes sense - thanks.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26

Julie Bove wrote:
By the same token, nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in
this world is diminished if you don't take communion. Or eat fish on
Fridays. Or on Christmas Eve. Or don't eat beef. Or... Or... See what I
mean?

I entirely do. We don't eat any specific foods on specific days. We take
communion in order to get closer to God and each other as worshiping brethren.
But you're entirely right, the quality of daily life doesn't improve because of
it.

Orlando

Julie Bove wrote:
By the same token, nowhere is it demonstrated that the quality of life in
this world is diminished if you don't take communion. Or eat fish on
Fridays. Or on Christmas Eve. Or don't eat beef. Or... Or... See what I
mean?

Most religions intentionally blur the lines between God's laws and Man's laws,
to the point where the hapless practitioner can't tell the difference. Some guy
figures out that if he wants to stay king and ensure that right for his
successive generations, the best way to do it is to say that God gave him the
right to rule. Some rabbi comes up with the idea that the more minutia he and
his fellow clergy prescribe to orthodox Jews, the more future generations will
depend on rabbinical wisdom for everything. Some priest comes up with a link
between Jesus' crucifixion and fish on Fridays, proclaims it as God's law and
ensures that ignorant Catholics will respect that Man-made tradition for
centuries. I hope you see a pattern here. Religious clergy don't want people
thinking for themselves; that's why the Bible and Mass were kept in
incomprehensible Latin until Vatican II, and orthodox Jews rarely read the
Torah outside of schul or in translation. The idea is for worshipers not to
think for themselves via direct access to God's word. Access is mediated by
language, special scrolls, special churches or synagogue settings. Then, the
Word is mediated by exegetical or hermeneutic interpretation, which means
worshipers aren't supposed to make whatever they will from direct access to
God's word; they're supposed to depend on rabbis, theologians, priests,
bishops, popes and even saints to interpret scripture. All this is of course
nonsense. God has always made His word directly accessible. When the Jewish
people spoke and wrote Hebrew, He gave them Torah in their own language. But
when Hebrew ceased being the lingua franca for Jews, they needed rabbis
specially trained in Hebrew to read scripture. The same held true for Catholics
and Latin scripture until Martin Luther translated the Bible into German. The
clergy have purposely withheld scriptures from the masses for centuries because
direct access to scriptures would diminish their choke hold over worshipers. If
people could read the word autonomously, they might just get the notion that
all these laws are ridiculous, which we can't have. That's why we have a
situation today where people like Ellen are worried about not being able to say
meaningful sabbath prayers without first consuming bread. She's only worried
about this because her rabbis have told her what they take to be God's final
pronouncement on this matter. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who find
themselves miraculously able to worship meaningfully without eating bread
before sabbath prayers. Either those conservative and reform Jews have got it
all wrong or just maybe, it is in fact the orthodox Jews whose endless tomes of
laws keep them imprisoned in anachronistic bubbles and ultimately separate from
God.

Orlando

Alan S wrote:
"My mother" is totally specific.
"(insert ethnic or religious group of your choice) don't like it" is
general and total in coverage but specific as to race or religion.
"Jews don't like it when their absurd legalism is pointed out." A
generalisation not only that all Jews are absurdly legalistic - in
your opinion - but also that they all object to being advised that
they are.
Seems pretty clear to me.

Not all Jews are legalistic. Some Jews don't even mind when legalism is pointed
out. But others object strenuously when it is. Happy now?

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote in message
. ..

Well, all I can say is...thank God that we have *you* to interpret our
religions for us! All those centuries of ignorance, and then you came along
to lead us out of darkness. LMAO

Cheri


Most religions intentionally blur the lines between God's laws and Man's
laws,
to the point where the hapless practitioner can't tell the difference.
Some guy
figures out that if he wants to stay king and ensure that right for his
successive generations, the best way to do it is to say that God gave him
the
right to rule. Some rabbi comes up with the idea that the more minutia he
and
his fellow clergy prescribe to orthodox Jews, the more future generations
will
depend on rabbinical wisdom for everything. Some priest comes up with a
link
between Jesus' crucifixion and fish on Fridays, proclaims it as God's law
and
ensures that ignorant Catholics will respect that Man-made tradition for
centuries. I hope you see a pattern here. Religious clergy don't want
people
thinking for themselves; that's why the Bible and Mass were kept in
incomprehensible Latin until Vatican II, and orthodox Jews rarely read the
Torah outside of schul or in translation. The idea is for worshipers not
to
think for themselves via direct access to God's word. Access is mediated
by
language, special scrolls, special churches or synagogue settings. Then,
the
Word is mediated by exegetical or hermeneutic interpretation, which means
worshipers aren't supposed to make whatever they will from direct access
to
God's word; they're supposed to depend on rabbis, theologians, priests,
bishops, popes and even saints to interpret scripture. All this is of
course
nonsense. God has always made His word directly accessible. When the
Jewish
people spoke and wrote Hebrew, He gave them Torah in their own language.
But
when Hebrew ceased being the lingua franca for Jews, they needed rabbis
specially trained in Hebrew to read scripture. The same held true for
Catholics
and Latin scripture until Martin Luther translated the Bible into German.
The
clergy have purposely withheld scriptures from the masses for centuries
because
direct access to scriptures would diminish their choke hold over
worshipers. If
people could read the word autonomously, they might just get the notion
that
all these laws are ridiculous, which we can't have. That's why we have a
situation today where people like Ellen are worried about not being able
to say
meaningful sabbath prayers without first consuming bread. She's only
worried
about this because her rabbis have told her what they take to be God's
final
pronouncement on this matter. Of course, there are plenty of Jews who find
themselves miraculously able to worship meaningfully without eating bread
before sabbath prayers. Either those conservative and reform Jews have got
it
all wrong or just maybe, it is in fact the orthodox Jews whose endless
tomes of
laws keep them imprisoned in anachronistic bubbles and ultimately separate
from
God.

Orlando