I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
it from my own grape vines. I have the land but was
wondering how many grape vines I need to plant.
I live in Lufkin TX in the eastern part of Texas.
I have 5 grape vines of table grapes and they do wonderfully
so I know my piece of heaven will grow grapes.
I just dont want to under plant. I figure I will plant a
few extra for the lean years but this is just a hobby for
now.
Thanks Kenny


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kenny wrote:

> I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
> it from my own grape vines. I have the land but was
> wondering how many grape vines I need to plant.
> I live in Lufkin TX in the eastern part of Texas.
> I have 5 grape vines of table grapes and they do wonderfully
> so I know my piece of heaven will grow grapes.
> I just dont want to under plant. I figure I will plant a
> few extra for the lean years but this is just a hobby for
> now.
> Thanks Kenny

It depends on the variety and a LOT of other variables but I think if you
use the assumption that it takes about 15 pounds of grapes to make a gallon
of wine (could be anywhere from 12 to 15) and that a good vine after about
5 years can provide about 10 - 12 pounds of fruit, you will get a "ball
park" figure. Of course, you may get more than 10 pounds per vine but
these are "Ball park" numbers. So - to get about 200 gallons on wine think
200 gallons will require about - 200 gallons X 15 pounds per gallon = 3000
pounds of grapes. 3000 pounds / 10 pounds per vine = 300 vines.
This is based on the assumption that you have about 4 - 6 feet between vines
and about 7 - 10 feet between rows.

If you have the ground, I would recommend choosing the larger number between
vines and rows. If you have excessive vigor, you can control it by
allowing each vine more room and having a larger number of canes per vine.
Also think about a divided canopy such as a Lyre, Scott Henry or Geneva
Double Curtain trellising system. I think that in East Texas you WILL have
excessive vigor.

Your results may vary.


>
>
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In article >, kenny > wrote:
>I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
>it from my own grape vines.

Leaving aside for the moment any discussion of how many vines you need to
plant... what are you planning to do with 200 gallons of wine per year? You do
know, I hope, that it's illegal to sell home-produced wine; technically, it's
not even legal to give it away. Are you really intending to drink _two_quarts_
daily?

On Mon, 31 May 2004 05:00:57 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

>In article >, kenny > wrote:
>>I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
>>it from my own grape vines.
>
Ya know I never really thought of it that way.
I guess I am a little excessive compulsive in my hobbies.
In one year I would make all the wine I need for the next 5
years of course the next year I still have 200 gallons of
wine to deal with.
I will rethink what I really need to plant adjusted to what
I think I will drink in a year.
THen again if the wine is good 200 gallons may not be enough

This wine is all for me and only me maybe a small glass to
the family but no more .


>Leaving aside for the moment any discussion of how many vines you need to
>plant... what are you planning to do with 200 gallons of wine per year? You do
>know, I hope, that it's illegal to sell home-produced wine; technically, it's
>not even legal to give it away. Are you really intending to drink _two_quarts_
>daily?



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On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:44:52 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> wrote:

Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive
with the amount of wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons
will be more in the balll park. that is with putting 1/2 up
to age for an extended time.
>
>It depends on the variety and a LOT of other variables but I think if you
>use the assumption that it takes about 15 pounds of grapes to make a gallon
>of wine (could be anywhere from 12 to 15) and that a good vine after about
>5 years can provide about 10 - 12 pounds of fruit, you will get a "ball
>park" figure. Of course, you may get more than 10 pounds per vine but
>these are "Ball park" numbers. So - to get about 200 gallons on wine think
>200 gallons will require about - 200 gallons X 15 pounds per gallon = 3000
>pounds of grapes. 3000 pounds / 10 pounds per vine = 300 vines.
>This is based on the assumption that you have about 4 - 6 feet between vines
>and about 7 - 10 feet between rows.
>
>If you have the ground, I would recommend choosing the larger number between
>vines and rows. If you have excessive vigor, you can control it by
>allowing each vine more room and having a larger number of canes per vine.
>Also think about a divided canopy such as a Lyre, Scott Henry or Geneva
>Double Curtain trellising system. I think that in East Texas you WILL have
>excessive vigor.
>
>Your results may vary.
>
>
>>
>>
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>> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----



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kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount of
wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."

Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines if
you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest. Also,
you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you may
still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part of
your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming you
know.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Something not mentioned so far, and maybe you already know, but you are
located dead center in hottest part of the Perices Disease zone. This fact
will dramaticly limit your variatal selection. All of the French vinifira
are out. No exceptions I fear. Less than ten French American hybrids are
resistant to PD. Your choices are pretty much only true American natives
and Muscadines.

A short but pretty complete list: Norton (Cynthiana), Black Spanish
(Lenor), Blanc DeBois, Hermabot(sps?), Champenell(sp?), La Rouge, SV 12-375,
SV12-259, SV12-372, and any Muscadine on the planet.

Fred
Athens, Texas
Ask me why I know :-(

"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
>
> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount
of
> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
>
> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines
if
> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
Also,
> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you may
> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part
of
> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
> leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming you
> know.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>

"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
y.com...
> In article >, kenny
> wrote:
> >I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
> >it from my own grape vines.
>
> Leaving aside for the moment any discussion of how many vines you need to
> plant... what are you planning to do with 200 gallons of wine per year?
You do
> know, I hope, that it's illegal to sell home-produced wine; technically,
it's
> not even legal to give it away. Are you really intending to drink
_two_quarts_
> daily?
I was not aware that it is illegal to give it away. Do you have an ATF
ruling on that?

In article >, kenny > wrote:
>On Mon, 31 May 2004 05:00:57 GMT, (Doug
>Miller) wrote:
>
>>In article >, kenny
> > wrote:
>>>I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
>>>it from my own grape vines.
>>
>Ya know I never really thought of it that way.
>I guess I am a little excessive compulsive in my hobbies.
>In one year I would make all the wine I need for the next 5
>years of course the next year I still have 200 gallons of
>wine to deal with.

Not only the next year, but every year after that as well.

>I will rethink what I really need to plant adjusted to what
>I think I will drink in a year.

Exactly.

Anything more than two glasses of wine per day is likely to be harmful to
health. At six ounces per glass, that's one bottle every two days, or 182
bottles in a year. At five bottles to the gallon, that's 36 gallons per year.

In article k.net>, "Bob" > wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
gy.com...
>> In article >, kenny
> wrote:
>> >I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
>> >it from my own grape vines.
>>
>> Leaving aside for the moment any discussion of how many vines you need to
>> plant... what are you planning to do with 200 gallons of wine per year?
>You do
>> know, I hope, that it's illegal to sell home-produced wine; technically,
>it's
>> not even legal to give it away. Are you really intending to drink
>_two_quarts_
>> daily?
> I was not aware that it is illegal to give it away. Do you have an ATF
>ruling on that?

U.S. law allows limited production of wine at home "for personal or family
use" including removing it from the premises "for personal or family use"
specifically INcluding organized tastings and competitions. "Personal or
family use" clearly includes bringing a bottle or two along when you go to a
friend's house for dinner and you'll be drinking it along with your friend,
but it's a little harder to make the case that simply giving it away when you
won't be actually consuming any of it yourself is also included under this
heading. As a practical matter, I imagine that prosecutions for doing so are
quite rare, but also as a practical matter I would prefer to not be in the
position of having to argue the point with an ATF agent.

http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/faq/subpages/24_75.htm

In article >, "William Frazier" > wrote:
> And, you may end up selling part of
>your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc.

Note carefully: "selling part of your harvest" means selling the *grapes*.
If you're a home winemaker, selling the *wine* is against the law.

Doug Miller wrote:

> In article >, kenny
> > wrote:
>>On Mon, 31 May 2004 05:00:57 GMT, (Doug
>>Miller) wrote:
>>
>>>In article >, kenny
>> > wrote:
>>>>I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
>>>>it from my own grape vines.
>>>
>>Ya know I never really thought of it that way.
>>I guess I am a little excessive compulsive in my hobbies.
>>In one year I would make all the wine I need for the next 5
>>years of course the next year I still have 200 gallons of
>>wine to deal with.
>
> Not only the next year, but every year after that as well.
>
>>I will rethink what I really need to plant adjusted to what
>>I think I will drink in a year.
>
> Exactly.
>
> Anything more than two glasses of wine per day is likely to be harmful to
> health. At six ounces per glass, that's one bottle every two days, or 182
> bottles in a year. At five bottles to the gallon, that's 36 gallons per
> year.

36 gallons per year PER PERSON.

If there are two of drinking age in the household then that means 72 gallons
is required.

Federal law allows 200 gallons of wine per household in which there are two
or more adults of drinking age.

Your 36 gallons assumes that all will be drunk in one year and does not
allow for any to be aged for several years. Your 36 gallons also does not
allow for wines that will not turn out to be all that great and may end up
being used for cooking or to make vinegar.

I would venture to bet that some of those who limit themselves to only two
glasses of wine per day for health reasons see nothing at all wrong with
drinking vast quantities of soda or other beverages that have a list of
chemicals on the outside of the container with words they can not even
pronounce.

Lighten up. If the fellow wants to make 200 gallons of wine a year, who are
you to judge. If the feds have nothing better to do than count bottles of
wine in your cellar and determine when it was made, this country is in
worse shape than I thought.

"Bob" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Doug Miller" > wrote in message
> y.com...
> > In article >, kenny
> > wrote:
> > >I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
> > >it from my own grape vines.
> >
> > Leaving aside for the moment any discussion of how many vines you need
to
> > plant... what are you planning to do with 200 gallons of wine per year?
> You do
> > know, I hope, that it's illegal to sell home-produced wine; technically,
> it's
> > not even legal to give it away. Are you really intending to drink
> _two_quarts_
> > daily?
> I was not aware that it is illegal to give it away. Do you have an ATF
> ruling on that?

I can't quote verbatim, but as I recall the head of household is allowed to
make up to 100 gallons per year, per adult in the household, up to a limit
of 200 gallons. It must be made and consumed on the home premises. (This
rule was in effect even during Prohibition, and lots of grapes were sold to
home winemakers all over the USA.)

That said, the ATF looks the other way when it comes to the "home premises"
part. There wouldn't be any home wine competitions at the fairs if they
rigorously enforced that rule. Also, they aren't likely to stake out your
house to be sure you aren't giving any of it away to your friends and
relatives.

Just don't get caught "trading" it for $$. That they take real seriously.

Tom S

In article >, wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> In article >, kenny
>> > wrote:
>>>On Mon, 31 May 2004 05:00:57 GMT, (Doug
>>>Miller) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article >, kenny
>>> > wrote:
>>>>>I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
>>>>>it from my own grape vines.
>>>>
>>>Ya know I never really thought of it that way.
>>>I guess I am a little excessive compulsive in my hobbies.
>>>In one year I would make all the wine I need for the next 5
>>>years of course the next year I still have 200 gallons of
>>>wine to deal with.
>>
>> Not only the next year, but every year after that as well.
>>
>>>I will rethink what I really need to plant adjusted to what
>>>I think I will drink in a year.
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> Anything more than two glasses of wine per day is likely to be harmful to
>> health. At six ounces per glass, that's one bottle every two days, or 182
>> bottles in a year. At five bottles to the gallon, that's 36 gallons per
>> year.
>
>36 gallons per year PER PERSON.

He did say specifically that it was mostly for himself, with only a little bit
for other family members.
>
>If there are two of drinking age in the household then that means 72 gallons
>is required.

Only if both of them are drinking up to the limit of what is healthy, and the
OP has already indicated that is not the case. And it's still a *lot* less
than 200 gallons.
>
>Federal law allows 200 gallons of wine per household in which there are two
>or more adults of drinking age.
>
>Your 36 gallons assumes that all will be drunk in one year and does not
>allow for any to be aged for several years. Your 36 gallons also does not
>allow for wines that will not turn out to be all that great and may end up
>being used for cooking or to make vinegar.

It also allows for a pretty high rate of consumption. :-)

The bottom line is that it's not smart to produce significantly more than
you're going to consume, or it's going to go to waste. If consumption is at
the rate of only 30 to 40 gallons annually, but production is at 200 gallons,
it doesn't take very long to accumulate an enormous surplus.

If you want to be able to age it for several years, fine -- plant enough vines
to produce *one* year's worth of wine. Then for the next three years, buy
enough grapes to make enough wine for *two* years. By the time the vines start
producing substantial harvests, there will be three years' worth of wine
aging. Production will be at the same rate as consumption, but always three
years ahead.

>I would venture to bet that some of those who limit themselves to only two
>glasses of wine per day for health reasons see nothing at all wrong with
>drinking vast quantities of soda or other beverages that have a list of
>chemicals on the outside of the container with words they can not even
>pronounce.

Possibly so, but utterly irrelevant.
>
>Lighten up. If the fellow wants to make 200 gallons of wine a year, who are
>you to judge.

Lighten up yourself -- nothing I said was in the least bit judgemental. It
seemed to me that the OP hadn't thought things out all the way (and his
response to my post confirmed that). All I did was to point out that it may be
unwise to produce vastly larger quantities of wine than one is likely to
consume. Just because you're *allowed* to produce 200 gallons a year doesn't
mean that you *should*.

>If the feds have nothing better to do than count bottles of
>wine in your cellar and determine when it was made, this country is in
>worse shape than I thought.

True, but again irrelevant. The 200-gallon limit is quite a lot more wine than
one or two people are likely to consume in a year, so I very much doubt that
they expend much manpower looking for limit violations.

In article > , "Tom S" > wrote:
>I can't quote verbatim, but as I recall the head of household is allowed to
>make up to 100 gallons per year, per adult in the household, up to a limit
>of 200 gallons.

Well, sort of. The law states it more simply than that: 100 gallons if there
is one adult in the household, 200 gallons if there are two or more adults.

> It must be made and consumed on the home premises.

False. The law specifically permits removing the wine from the premises "for
personal or family use".

>That said, the ATF looks the other way when it comes to the "home premises"
>part. There wouldn't be any home wine competitions at the fairs if they
>rigorously enforced that rule.

False. The law specifically permits removing the wine from the premises for
organized events such as tastings and competitions.

http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/faq/subpages/24_75.htm

Actually, a lot of the times it is the state law you have to worry more
about. As an example, in New Jersey, you need to buy a yearly permit to
homebrew.

The Constitution gives the States the right to regulate alcohol. If a state
law says you are only allowed to produce 10 gallons a year and have to wear
a clown hat while doing it, unless the Federal government makes an amendment
to the Constitution, you have to do it.


"Bob" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>

> I was not aware that it is illegal to give it away. Do you have an ATF
> ruling on that?
>
>

"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
y.com...
> In article k.net>, "Bob"
> wrote:
> >
> >"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
> gy.com...
> >> In article >, kenny
> > wrote:
> >> >I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do
> >> >it from my own grape vines.
> >>
> >> Leaving aside for the moment any discussion of how many vines you need
to
> >> plant... what are you planning to do with 200 gallons of wine per year?
> >You do
> >> know, I hope, that it's illegal to sell home-produced wine;
technically,
> >it's
> >> not even legal to give it away. Are you really intending to drink
> >_two_quarts_
> >> daily?
> > I was not aware that it is illegal to give it away. Do you have an
ATF
> >ruling on that?
>
> U.S. law allows limited production of wine at home "for personal or family
> use" including removing it from the premises "for personal or family use"
> specifically INcluding organized tastings and competitions. "Personal or
> family use" clearly includes bringing a bottle or two along when you go to
a
> friend's house for dinner and you'll be drinking it along with your
friend,
> but it's a little harder to make the case that simply giving it away when
you
> won't be actually consuming any of it yourself is also included under this
> heading. As a practical matter, I imagine that prosecutions for doing so
are
> quite rare, but also as a practical matter I would prefer to not be in the
> position of having to argue the point with an ATF agent.
>
> http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/faq/subpages/24_75.htm
Thank you very much, Doug. I try to stay out of trouble too.
Fortunately, most of my friends do not drink at all. I have given some away,
only to find that they never drank it. I gave some to a friend once, and
found it two years later in the bottom of her fridge, untouched. <sigh>

"Adam Lang" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, a lot of the times it is the state law you have to worry more
> about. As an example, in New Jersey, you need to buy a yearly permit to
> homebrew.
That's why I don't live in NJ anymore... <eg>
> The Constitution gives the States the right to regulate alcohol. If a
state
> law says you are only allowed to produce 10 gallons a year and have to
wear
> a clown hat while doing it, unless the Federal government makes an
amendment
> to the Constitution, you have to do it.
The law is pretty wacky. I try to keep a low profile. I mostly brew for
three reasons; I like the hobby, I love the types of wines that I make that
usually can not be bought anywhere at any price, and it is cheaper to make
it yourself. I am on a limited income and laying out ten or twenty bucks a
week adds up. I can make a lovely bottle of wine for less than a buck.
Bob<><
>
> "Bob" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
>
> > I was not aware that it is illegal to give it away. Do you have an
ATF
> > ruling on that?
> >
> >
>
>

Fred Williams wrote "Something not mentioned so far, and maybe you already
know, but you are
located dead center in hottest part of the Perices Disease zone. This fact
will dramaticly limit your variatal selection.

Kenny, Fred and others that may be looking for a great wine grape that's not
well known. Our wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on
an amateur wine contest every November. Last year we had an entry of
Delicatessen wine from a winemaker in the St. Louis area. I had the
PLEASURE of tasting this red wine. It was outstanding...loaded with fruit.
Everyone loved it and I thought it should have won Best Of Show (it won it's
category). I mention this since Kenny lives in Texas. Delicatessen is a
Munson Hybrid grape. I'm not sure if Delicatessen is bothered by Perices
Disease but there is a repository of Munson Hybrids at Grayson County
College in Denison, Texas. Contact Dr. Roy Renfro for information about how
to grow these grapes in Texas at . Two of our wineclub
members have planted rows of Delicatessen so we will have access to this
grape in the Kansas City area. If more information, such as where to
acquire vines, is of interest send me an email and I'll put you in contact
with one of our growers.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

In article >,
says...
> Something not mentioned so far, and maybe you already know, but you are
> located dead center in hottest part of the Perices Disease zone.

Do you perhaps mean Pierce's Disease?

My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My hobby
vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close spacing, 4 x 5,
and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals of wine!
Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively, the wine
is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident cellar
problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this year and am
really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had last year. It was
a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't really
make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes like
its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant some
extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.
"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
>
> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount
of
> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
>
> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines
if
> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
Also,
> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you may
> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part
of
> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
> leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming you
> know.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>

Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:

> My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
> importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My hobby
> vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close spacing, 4 x
> 5, and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals of
> wine! Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively,
> the wine is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident
> cellar problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this
> year and am really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had last
> year. It was
> a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't
> really
> make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes like
> its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant
> some extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.

Darwin, where do you live? 2003 in the Mid Atlantic was a Horrible year for
grapes. 4 x 5 is fairly close spacing. Do you use divided canopy
trellising? I switched from VSP to the Lyre and prune to one counting bud
spurs. The vines are loving it.




> "William Frazier" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
>> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount
> of
>> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
>> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
>>
>> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
>> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines
> if
>> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
>> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
> Also,
>> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you
>> may
>> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part
> of
>> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
>> leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
>> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming
>> you know.
>>
>> Bill Frazier
>> Olathe, Kansas
>>
>>

Darwin,

Last year was a tough year for getting grapes ripe. Along with
everyone else I learned alot. Here is what I am doing now after the
last 2 years. Like yourself I'm ADDING vines to my rows so instead of
8 ft spacings it's now 4 ft in-row spacing. I'm trying to convert from
a Geneva Double curtain to a VSP with only 1 fruiting wire. Here's
why. The vines I grow, chambourcin, have an upright growing pattern
and DO NOT match very well to a high cordon system especially the GDC
with 8 ft between POST spacing. The shoots were so hard to comb down I
needed a machette to get through. I've learned that before you pick a
trellis system you NEED to understand the growing pattern of the vines
your trying to grow. I also am a big believer now that even though the
GDC gives plenty of light and airflow it's a tougher trellis system to
manage with an upright growing vine. So I think what you have as far
as vine spacing is actually not bad BUT IMHO you need to have only 1
fruiting wire to facilitate airflow and light interception for quality
fruit and buds. The closer the spacings the more potential crop you
will have because of the extra vines but you can't over crop or
vegetate the vines. 4X5 spacing is fine, they use close spacings in
europe. The reason for such big between row spacings talked about so
often is for the machinery needed to tend to the vines NOT the growing
needs of the vines.Actually , the smaller spacings will naturally
inhibit the vines because of the competition between them. Like you
said , thinning is a way to increase quality BUT if you prune heavily
to 2 canes laid in opposite direction with the correct # of buds for
the variety, which would be 1/2 the recommended for 8ft in-row
spacings since now your using 4ft, you'll have a canopy easily
penetrated by air, light and fungicides with the fruit happy as a pig
in spit. Just my 2 cents.

Bob



Darwin Vander Stelt" > wrote in message >...
> My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
> importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My hobby
> vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close spacing, 4 x 5,
> and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals of wine!
> Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively, the wine
> is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident cellar
> problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this year and am
> really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had last year. It was
> a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't really
> make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes like
> its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant some
> extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.
> "William Frazier" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
> > much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount
> of
> > wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
> > that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
> >
> > Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
> > figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines
> if
> > you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
> > clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
> Also,
> > you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you may
> > still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part
> of
> > your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
> > leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
> > through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming you
> > know.
> >
> > Bill Frazier
> > Olathe, Kansas
> >
> >

I am in nampa, Idaho, at about 2600' elevation. Its a terrific place to grow
grapes in some respects, less so in others. After 3 crops and 6 yrs of
growing (took 2 years to get planted) I have not yet sprayed, with
anything, and have had no molds, mildews fungus etc, and no insect damage
either except maybe some wasps. We have a very dry climate, and the daytime
temperature will get above 95 degrees in mid June. Night time temperatures
are generally under 70, and by the time the grapes are ripening, in the
50's. Our climate is quite similar to the Prosser Washington area, which is
becoming a very popular wine growing area, with something like 300 new
vinyards. We use drip irrigation, have a very fertile soil, use own rooted
plants, and plant vigor is pretty high.
The 4x5 spacing came about because I wanted to have lots of varieties and
also I spent some time in the Napa Valley looking at vineyards and saw some
new ones going in at even closer spacing (4x4). It worked out that in my 50'
x 150' area I could do 10 rows of 33 plants. So I have 1 of chardonnay, 2 of
cab Sauv, 1.5 of cab franc, 1.5 of merlot, 2 of pinot noir, 1 of pinot gris,
1 of gervurtz.

About the only problem has been frost damage, mostly in the fall, but some
in the spring as well. The hardest hit has been Cab sauv which mostly got
froze to the ground with a 13 degree night November 1, 2002. They are the
latest, and they had not gone completely dormant. Only a few of the 66
plants actually died, and i should have about 75% of a crop this year. This
year I will install an overhead sprinkling system governed by a thermostat
which will turn it on on cold nights during the critical periods when
dormancy is not complete and in the spring after bud break.
I saw some of the lyre systems in the Napa valley, and it does seem that the
new vinyards are going either close spacing or lyre. (Just my amateur
observation).
How do you prune to " one counting bud
spurs"? I don't know all the lingo of the trade yet!



"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
...
> Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
>
> > My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
> > importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My hobby
> > vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close spacing, 4
x
> > 5, and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals
of
> > wine! Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively,
> > the wine is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident
> > cellar problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this
> > year and am really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had
last
> > year. It was
> > a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't
> > really
> > make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes
like
> > its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant
> > some extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.
>
> Darwin, where do you live? 2003 in the Mid Atlantic was a Horrible year
for
> grapes. 4 x 5 is fairly close spacing. Do you use divided canopy
> trellising? I switched from VSP to the Lyre and prune to one counting bud
> spurs. The vines are loving it.
>
>
>
>
> > "William Frazier" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out
how
> >> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the
amount
> > of
> >> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll
park.
> >> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
> >>
> >> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
> >> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred
vines
> > if
> >> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit
the
> >> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
> > Also,
> >> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you
> >> may
> >> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling
part
> > of
> >> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
> >> leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
> >> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming
> >> you know.
> >>
> >> Bill Frazier
> >> Olathe, Kansas
> >>
> >>
>

Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:

> I am in nampa, Idaho, at about 2600' elevation. Its a terrific place to
> grow grapes in some respects, less so in others. After 3 crops and 6 yrs
> of
> growing (took 2 years to get planted) I have not yet sprayed, with
> anything, and have had no molds, mildews fungus etc, and no insect damage
> either except maybe some wasps. We have a very dry climate, and the
> daytime temperature will get above 95 degrees in mid June. Night time
> temperatures are generally under 70, and by the time the grapes are
> ripening, in the 50's. Our climate is quite similar to the Prosser
> Washington area, which is becoming a very popular wine growing area, with
> something like 300 new vinyards. We use drip irrigation, have a very
> fertile soil, use own rooted plants, and plant vigor is pretty high.
> The 4x5 spacing came about because I wanted to have lots of varieties and
> also I spent some time in the Napa Valley looking at vineyards and saw
> some new ones going in at even closer spacing (4x4). It worked out that in
> my 50' x 150' area I could do 10 rows of 33 plants. So I have 1 of
> chardonnay, 2 of cab Sauv, 1.5 of cab franc, 1.5 of merlot, 2 of pinot
> noir, 1 of pinot gris, 1 of gervurtz.
>
> About the only problem has been frost damage, mostly in the fall, but some
> in the spring as well. The hardest hit has been Cab sauv which mostly got
> froze to the ground with a 13 degree night November 1, 2002. They are the
> latest, and they had not gone completely dormant. Only a few of the 66
> plants actually died, and i should have about 75% of a crop this year.
> This year I will install an overhead sprinkling system governed by a
> thermostat which will turn it on on cold nights during the critical
> periods when dormancy is not complete and in the spring after bud break.
> I saw some of the lyre systems in the Napa valley, and it does seem that
> the
> new vinyards are going either close spacing or lyre. (Just my amateur
> observation).
> How do you prune to " one counting bud
> spurs"? I don't know all the lingo of the trade yet!

One counting bud is the first bud on a cane after the basal bud. It is
generally the first fruiting bud since the basal bud is usually not fruit
producing.


>
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
>>
>> > My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
>> > importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My
>> > hobby vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close
>> > spacing, 4
> x
>> > 5, and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals
> of
>> > wine! Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively,
>> > the wine is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident
>> > cellar problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this
>> > year and am really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had
> last
>> > year. It was
>> > a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't
>> > really
>> > make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes
> like
>> > its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant
>> > some extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.
>>
>> Darwin, where do you live? 2003 in the Mid Atlantic was a Horrible year
> for
>> grapes. 4 x 5 is fairly close spacing. Do you use divided canopy
>> trellising? I switched from VSP to the Lyre and prune to one counting
>> bud
>> spurs. The vines are loving it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "William Frazier" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out
> how
>> >> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the
> amount
>> > of
>> >> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll
> park.
>> >> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
>> >>
>> >> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good
>> >> ballpark
>> >> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred
> vines
>> > if
>> >> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit
> the
>> >> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
>> > Also,
>> >> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you
>> >> may
>> >> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling
> part
>> > of
>> >> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I
>> >> would leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the
>> >> tractor
>> >> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming
>> >> you know.
>> >>
>> >> Bill Frazier
>> >> Olathe, Kansas
>> >>
>> >>
>>

bob wrote:
> Darwin,
>
> Last year was a tough year for getting grapes ripe. Along with
> everyone else I learned alot. Here is what I am doing now after the
> last 2 years. Like yourself I'm ADDING vines to my rows so instead of
> 8 ft spacings it's now 4 ft in-row spacing. I'm trying to convert from
> a Geneva Double curtain to a VSP with only 1 fruiting wire. Here's
> why. The vines I grow, chambourcin, have an upright growing pattern
> and DO NOT match very well to a high cordon system especially the GDC
> with 8 ft between POST spacing. The shoots were so hard to comb down I
> needed a machette to get through. I've learned that before you pick a
> trellis system you NEED to understand the growing pattern of the vines
> your trying to grow. I also am a big believer now that even though the
> GDC gives plenty of light and airflow it's a tougher trellis system to
> manage with an upright growing vine. So I think what you have as far
> as vine spacing is actually not bad BUT IMHO you need to have only 1
> fruiting wire to facilitate airflow and light interception for quality
> fruit and buds. The closer the spacings the more potential crop you
> will have because of the extra vines but you can't over crop or
> vegetate the vines. 4X5 spacing is fine, they use close spacings in
> europe. The reason for such big between row spacings talked about so
> often is for the machinery needed to tend to the vines NOT the growing
> needs of the vines.Actually , the smaller spacings will naturally
> inhibit the vines because of the competition between them. Like you
> said , thinning is a way to increase quality BUT if you prune heavily
> to 2 canes laid in opposite direction with the correct # of buds for
> the variety, which would be 1/2 the recommended for 8ft in-row
> spacings since now your using 4ft, you'll have a canopy easily
> penetrated by air, light and fungicides with the fruit happy as a pig
> in spit. Just my 2 cents.
>
> Bob
Bob,

I agree with just about all you said, and you said it well. But I think
one needs to take into account the site's growing vigor too.

I too grow some Chambourcin, but on a very fertile site, with high
summer rainfall and somewhat less than full sun exposure. Because of the
very adequate moisture, the competitive effect of close spacing doesn't
seem to work and the vines want to grow leggy, with long internodes. My
solution has been to train them to a high (6") single wire curtain. A
moveable catchwire allows me to force the normally upward growing shoots
downward, with a marked decrease in vigor. This also keeps the fruiting
zone above the bulk of the foliage & in better sun after I strip the
basal leaves at veraison. Being high up also keeps the fruiting buds out
of ground-hugging frosts, as my site slopes & there's good air drainage.

I think a lot of people have read "Sunlight into Wine", by Smart &
Robinson, and tried to apply their techniques. I did. The trouble is,
what works well for Vinifera in New Zealand doesn't seem to work for FA
hybrids in the eastern US. I'd be happy to hear from anybody who had
similar/different experiences.
--


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA

Mike,

Can't argue with what you said. I live 40 miles north of NYC so I know
exactly how much rain you recieved last year and now this year. It's
interesting that combing them down decreases vigor. I guess it has to
do with apical dominance. Do you get alot of suckers near the ground
every year??? If you "sucker" them maybe you can let them grow until
they get in the way of the downward shoots. Also I assume you have
grass in the row middles and iff your vines are THAT vigourous maybe
you should try growing grass UNDER the vines also. What do you do for
excess water??? My site is VERY sandy and the vigor while still strong
is average I would say. BTW, what was the brix on your Chambourcin
last year?? I could only get 16 out of mine.

Bob

MikeMTM > wrote in message ws.com>...
> bob wrote:
> > Darwin,
> >
> > Last year was a tough year for getting grapes ripe. Along with
> > everyone else I learned alot. Here is what I am doing now after the
> > last 2 years. Like yourself I'm ADDING vines to my rows so instead of
> > 8 ft spacings it's now 4 ft in-row spacing. I'm trying to convert from
> > a Geneva Double curtain to a VSP with only 1 fruiting wire. Here's
> > why. The vines I grow, chambourcin, have an upright growing pattern
> > and DO NOT match very well to a high cordon system especially the GDC
> > with 8 ft between POST spacing. The shoots were so hard to comb down I
> > needed a machette to get through. I've learned that before you pick a
> > trellis system you NEED to understand the growing pattern of the vines
> > your trying to grow. I also am a big believer now that even though the
> > GDC gives plenty of light and airflow it's a tougher trellis system to
> > manage with an upright growing vine. So I think what you have as far
> > as vine spacing is actually not bad BUT IMHO you need to have only 1
> > fruiting wire to facilitate airflow and light interception for quality
> > fruit and buds. The closer the spacings the more potential crop you
> > will have because of the extra vines but you can't over crop or
> > vegetate the vines. 4X5 spacing is fine, they use close spacings in
> > europe. The reason for such big between row spacings talked about so
> > often is for the machinery needed to tend to the vines NOT the growing
> > needs of the vines.Actually , the smaller spacings will naturally
> > inhibit the vines because of the competition between them. Like you
> > said , thinning is a way to increase quality BUT if you prune heavily
> > to 2 canes laid in opposite direction with the correct # of buds for
> > the variety, which would be 1/2 the recommended for 8ft in-row
> > spacings since now your using 4ft, you'll have a canopy easily
> > penetrated by air, light and fungicides with the fruit happy as a pig
> > in spit. Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > Bob
> Bob,
>
> I agree with just about all you said, and you said it well. But I think
> one needs to take into account the site's growing vigor too.
>
> I too grow some Chambourcin, but on a very fertile site, with high
> summer rainfall and somewhat less than full sun exposure. Because of the
> very adequate moisture, the competitive effect of close spacing doesn't
> seem to work and the vines want to grow leggy, with long internodes. My
> solution has been to train them to a high (6") single wire curtain. A
> moveable catchwire allows me to force the normally upward growing shoots
> downward, with a marked decrease in vigor. This also keeps the fruiting
> zone above the bulk of the foliage & in better sun after I strip the
> basal leaves at veraison. Being high up also keeps the fruiting buds out
> of ground-hugging frosts, as my site slopes & there's good air drainage.
>
> I think a lot of people have read "Sunlight into Wine", by Smart &
> Robinson, and tried to apply their techniques. I did. The trouble is,
> what works well for Vinifera in New Zealand doesn't seem to work for FA
> hybrids in the eastern US. I'd be happy to hear from anybody who had
> similar/different experiences.

Interesting discussion here about all that laws. Since i live in
Quebec/Canada, anyone here know the regulation concerning the maximum
production and if we can bring some wine out of our home for family
purpose ?

Thanks,
Sebastien Mailloux
President AVAQ
www.avaq.com

bob wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Can't argue with what you said. I live 40 miles north of NYC so I know
> exactly how much rain you recieved last year and now this year. It's
> interesting that combing them down decreases vigor. I guess it has to
> do with apical dominance. Do you get alot of suckers near the ground
> every year??? If you "sucker" them maybe you can let them grow until
> they get in the way of the downward shoots. Also I assume you have
> grass in the row middles and iff your vines are THAT vigourous maybe
> you should try growing grass UNDER the vines also. What do you do for
> excess water??? My site is VERY sandy and the vigor while still strong
> is average I would say. BTW, what was the brix on your Chambourcin
> last year?? I could only get 16 out of mine.
>
> Bob
Bob,

Funny, I live 40 mi. dead west of NYC.

Apical vigor is exactly the issue with forcing the canes downward. It's
amazing how a shoot slows down once its redirected. Linear growth
becomes more manageable, but the axial buds at the high point, usually
on the bend, pop and try to become leaders. They're easily dealt with by
rubbing off. Later in the season the game switches to lateral pinching,
but that's a good practice for all systems I think.

I never really tried using suckers to devigorate a vine, but I've
thought about it. I'm working out the other parameters of my vines
still. Soon, probably. Do you know anything about the technique?

Yes, I've got lawn grass in the aisles, kept nice & neat because it's
very visible from the house. Directly under the vines there's an 18" or
24" strip of landscape fabric with crushed stone atop. This makes mowing
a lot easier, but additional grass, especially unmowed, would probably
be better from a vigor standpoint.

Because of the slope, almost all rows have excellent surface drainage,
but subsurface moisture is pretty high, as my place has quite a few
small springs & streams. Something I just have to live with. One block
of vines is actually on top of an old vegetable garden, so you can
imagine the fertility.

Last year my Chambourcin came in at 16 Brix too, on Oct 10. A few
bunches left to hang made it to 20 Brix by Nov 2, but they didn't look
too good. On the whole, the crop was a disaster. Your experiences?

Mike,

I was told that laterals are good to keep if at all possible because
of their sugar producing potential. Suckering is just making sure the
suckers don't interfere with the other growth. You could pull them off
in July or cut them back to one bud and use them every year. . Just
make sure the vine can heal itself before winter. As far as the 2003
vintage. I wouldn't say it was a disaster. I left the must on the
skins for only 3 days and put it through MLF. I think it has potential
believe it or not. Maybe a 10% blend with the 2002 vintage. I think
it's going to be a light enjoyable wine. How did the grapes that hung
until Nov. get to 20 brix??? I thought once the leaves were gone the
grapes don't increase in sugar content?

Bob


MikeMTM > wrote in message ws.com>...
> bob wrote:
>
> > Mike,
> >
> > Can't argue with what you said. I live 40 miles north of NYC so I know
> > exactly how much rain you recieved last year and now this year. It's
> > interesting that combing them down decreases vigor. I guess it has to
> > do with apical dominance. Do you get alot of suckers near the ground
> > every year??? If you "sucker" them maybe you can let them grow until
> > they get in the way of the downward shoots. Also I assume you have
> > grass in the row middles and iff your vines are THAT vigourous maybe
> > you should try growing grass UNDER the vines also. What do you do for
> > excess water??? My site is VERY sandy and the vigor while still strong
> > is average I would say. BTW, what was the brix on your Chambourcin
> > last year?? I could only get 16 out of mine.
> >
> > Bob
> Bob,
>
> Funny, I live 40 mi. dead west of NYC.
>
> Apical vigor is exactly the issue with forcing the canes downward. It's
> amazing how a shoot slows down once its redirected. Linear growth
> becomes more manageable, but the axial buds at the high point, usually
> on the bend, pop and try to become leaders. They're easily dealt with by
> rubbing off. Later in the season the game switches to lateral pinching,
> but that's a good practice for all systems I think.
>
> I never really tried using suckers to devigorate a vine, but I've
> thought about it. I'm working out the other parameters of my vines
> still. Soon, probably. Do you know anything about the technique?
>
> Yes, I've got lawn grass in the aisles, kept nice & neat because it's
> very visible from the house. Directly under the vines there's an 18" or
> 24" strip of landscape fabric with crushed stone atop. This makes mowing
> a lot easier, but additional grass, especially unmowed, would probably
> be better from a vigor standpoint.
>
> Because of the slope, almost all rows have excellent surface drainage,
> but subsurface moisture is pretty high, as my place has quite a few
> small springs & streams. Something I just have to live with. One block
> of vines is actually on top of an old vegetable garden, so you can
> imagine the fertility.
>
> Last year my Chambourcin came in at 16 Brix too, on Oct 10. A few
> bunches left to hang made it to 20 Brix by Nov 2, but they didn't look
> too good. On the whole, the crop was a disaster. Your experiences?

bob wrote:
> Mike,
>
> I was told that laterals are good to keep if at all possible because
> of their sugar producing potential. Suckering is just making sure the
> suckers don't interfere with the other growth. You could pull them off
> in July or cut them back to one bud and use them every year. . Just
> make sure the vine can heal itself before winter. As far as the 2003
> vintage. I wouldn't say it was a disaster. I left the must on the
> skins for only 3 days and put it through MLF. I think it has potential
> believe it or not. Maybe a 10% blend with the 2002 vintage. I think
> it's going to be a light enjoyable wine. How did the grapes that hung
> until Nov. get to 20 brix??? I thought once the leaves were gone the
> grapes don't increase in sugar content?
>
> Bob


Bob,

I remove laterals for several reasons:

One, That's what I was taught by a successful pro grower.

Two, I recall reading (somewhere) that laterals actually contribute very
little carbohydrate to the bunches; it goes into new growth. It seems
they can actually be a drain on the vine, at the expense of the fruit. I
suspect this might be less true in a very sunny climate.

Three, on a vigorous site, the amount of growth produced by the dense
laterals is really counterproductive in that the inner leaves (3 deep or
more), get virtually no sunlight and can't contribute to the fruit.
Instead, the vine uses its share of sunlight to produce more and more
new growth, perhaps to the point of not being fully hardened off for
winter. Jackson & Schuster touch of this point in "The Production of
Grapes and Wine in Cool Climates", pg. 79:

"...once the bunch of grapes rapidly expands, nutrients are diverted
from the apex to the cluster and shoot growth slows down or stops.
Shoots with no clusters grow the longest, they cause congestion and
because there are no grapes to absorb the photosynthates produced by the
leaves, the excess is diverted to the rest of the plant, including the
roots. This excess promotes further vigour and compounds the problem.
The solution is for the grower to remove shoots with no crop or very
little crop before they are 20-30 cm long. Vigorous vines so treated can
often become easily controlled and yield and quality can both be improved."

I think they are mostly talking about non-bearing shoots, but I think it
is largely the same thing. I know that my vines got overgrown to the
point of inner leaves turning yellow when I didn't stay on top of the
laterals.

I still like the idea of using basal suckers to slow down early growth.
Guess I ought to try it.

2003 was a horrible crop for me. I harvested late, hoping to raise the
Brix, but from about 50 vines, I got a whopping 85 pounds of fruit. I
expected over 500#. It didn't help that the birds got every bit of Baco
overnight, before I got the netting up. The reds yielded about 3 gal of
a passable blend, but the whites yielded only about 1 1/2 gal of
wretched stuff. Not a lot to show for my efforts, but that's farming.

The reason the few Chambourcin clusters raised their Brix so late in the
season had nothing to do with ripening, but rather with dehydration. By
that point they looked a little ratty, but still better than the whites.
I don't know how a wine made solely from them would have turned out.
--


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA

Mike,
The fruitless shoots are not the same as laterals. Laterals come off
the same shoot and are the newest growth on the shoot. I've read the
exact opposite about carbohydrate production. I thought one of the
reasons for hedging was to induce laterals just before veraison. I'm
not sure how a successful grower would have the time to pinch off all
the laterals. I could see removing the fruitless shoots. I got 70
gallons on 95 vines last year at 16 brix. If I was going to remove
anything I'd lessen the fruit. I left the laterals because there was
plenty of room in the canopy for them. I also leave the fruitless
shoots but I may remove them this year I don't know. Why fix what
isn't broke. I grow my vines on VERY sandy soil but I mulch them and
they seem healty. Almost ALL SCIENTIFIC evidence about grapevines
favors NOT removing leaves unless absolutely necessary. I would leave
the laterals if I were you.
Let the vines do what they have naturally done for millions of years.
They just need to be pruned well and adjusted I'm not a big fan of
interfering with them once they start growing. There must be a reason
for lateral growth and I've read it's to increase leaves to ripen the
fruit.

Bob


MikeMTM > wrote in message ws.com>...
> bob wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > I was told that laterals are good to keep if at all possible because
> > of their sugar producing potential. Suckering is just making sure the
> > suckers don't interfere with the other growth. You could pull them off
> > in July or cut them back to one bud and use them every year. . Just
> > make sure the vine can heal itself before winter. As far as the 2003
> > vintage. I wouldn't say it was a disaster. I left the must on the
> > skins for only 3 days and put it through MLF. I think it has potential
> > believe it or not. Maybe a 10% blend with the 2002 vintage. I think
> > it's going to be a light enjoyable wine. How did the grapes that hung
> > until Nov. get to 20 brix??? I thought once the leaves were gone the
> > grapes don't increase in sugar content?
> >
> > Bob
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I remove laterals for several reasons:
>
> One, That's what I was taught by a successful pro grower.
>
> Two, I recall reading (somewhere) that laterals actually contribute very
> little carbohydrate to the bunches; it goes into new growth. It seems
> they can actually be a drain on the vine, at the expense of the fruit. I
> suspect this might be less true in a very sunny climate.
>
> Three, on a vigorous site, the amount of growth produced by the dense
> laterals is really counterproductive in that the inner leaves (3 deep or
> more), get virtually no sunlight and can't contribute to the fruit.
> Instead, the vine uses its share of sunlight to produce more and more
> new growth, perhaps to the point of not being fully hardened off for
> winter. Jackson & Schuster touch of this point in "The Production of
> Grapes and Wine in Cool Climates", pg. 79:
>
> "...once the bunch of grapes rapidly expands, nutrients are diverted
> from the apex to the cluster and shoot growth slows down or stops.
> Shoots with no clusters grow the longest, they cause congestion and
> because there are no grapes to absorb the photosynthates produced by the
> leaves, the excess is diverted to the rest of the plant, including the
> roots. This excess promotes further vigour and compounds the problem.
> The solution is for the grower to remove shoots with no crop or very
> little crop before they are 20-30 cm long. Vigorous vines so treated can
> often become easily controlled and yield and quality can both be improved."
>
> I think they are mostly talking about non-bearing shoots, but I think it
> is largely the same thing. I know that my vines got overgrown to the
> point of inner leaves turning yellow when I didn't stay on top of the
> laterals.
>
> I still like the idea of using basal suckers to slow down early growth.
> Guess I ought to try it.
>
> 2003 was a horrible crop for me. I harvested late, hoping to raise the
> Brix, but from about 50 vines, I got a whopping 85 pounds of fruit. I
> expected over 500#. It didn't help that the birds got every bit of Baco
> overnight, before I got the netting up. The reds yielded about 3 gal of
> a passable blend, but the whites yielded only about 1 1/2 gal of
> wretched stuff. Not a lot to show for my efforts, but that's farming.
>
> The reason the few Chambourcin clusters raised their Brix so late in the
> season had nothing to do with ripening, but rather with dehydration. By
> that point they looked a little ratty, but still better than the whites.
> I don't know how a wine made solely from them would have turned out.

Bob,

Thank you for your responses.

I do know the difference between laterals and fruitless shoots; my
comment was in regard to the similarity (I think) in how both can
excessively shade the earlier leaves which more directly feed the
clusters. I have had problems in the past with dense, shady canopies,
which I attribute to my very fertile, water-abundant site.

Have you read "Sunlight into Wine" by Smart & Robinson? They go into
minute detail about vine physiology, canopy management and shading, etc.
(By the way, their approach is quite scientific. ;-) ) They point out
that interior leaves of a canopy, by which I believe they mean the third
"layer" in, are net _importers_ of photosynthates. They also present
data showing that the leaves of actively growing shoots (like laterals?)
are also net importers for about the first 25 days of growth. [This
seems to explain why laterals retard main cane lengthening.] These two
points seem to mean that dense canopies & actively growing shoots make
it more difficult to accumulate sugars in the fruit.

Further on in the same book, the authors, who basically recommend
vineyard retrellissing as the best solution, say that shoot thinning
(suckers) and shoot trimming (to 10-20 leaves) can be done annually as a
"band aid" fix.[ But they _don't_ talk about lateral removal!! Hmmmm...]

Cox, in his readable if not overly technical "From Vines to Wines"
actually does come out in favor of removing laterals to favor the main cane.

BTW, I didn't mean to imply my commercial winemaking friend actually
_gets_ to remove laterals. It's clearly impossible to do so on a large
scale. But I've seen him pull enough of them while walking the rows to
know that he would do it generally if he could. His explanation was in
line with mine. He's had exceptional results with Vinifera here in NJ
for over 20 years, so I value his experience.

Also,Bob, what yield per vine do you aim for with your Chambourcin? I
look for about 15#, or 15 clusters per vine. I cluster thin to that
level, usually one per shoot. I'm wondering if trying for quality over
quantity is adding to my vigor problem.

Lastly, I like the idea of following nature's lead in letting the vines
grow as nature intended. Unfortunately, we're not asking the vines to
grow & produce as they do in nature. We grow artificially selected
varieties & clones, selected not on the basis of survivability, but
rather on the bases of flavor, sugar production, disease resistance,
etc. And we want uniform, high quality crops every year. Natural,
untinkered-with growth doesn't easily lend itself to these. "Natural"
wine is seldom good wine, IMHO. We all do some level of tinkering, if
only at the level of varietal selection & pruning. Like you, I prefer to
tinker as little as possible, and try to follow the vines' lead. But I'm
still trying to figure these vines out after 7 years.

Ahhhh...Sometimes I think I think too much. And talk too much. Sorry for
the long post.


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA