Bob,

Thank you for your responses.

I do know the difference between laterals and fruitless shoots; my
comment was in regard to the similarity (I think) in how both can
excessively shade the earlier leaves which more directly feed the
clusters. I have had problems in the past with dense, shady canopies,
which I attribute to my very fertile, water-abundant site.

Have you read "Sunlight into Wine" by Smart & Robinson? They go into
minute detail about vine physiology, canopy management and shading, etc.
(By the way, their approach is quite scientific. ;-) ) They point out
that interior leaves of a canopy, by which I believe they mean the third
"layer" in, are net _importers_ of photosynthates. They also present
data showing that the leaves of actively growing shoots (like laterals?)
are also net importers for about the first 25 days of growth. [This
seems to explain why laterals retard main cane lengthening.] These two
points seem to mean that dense canopies & actively growing shoots make
it more difficult to accumulate sugars in the fruit.

Further on in the same book, the authors, who basically recommend
vineyard retrellissing as the best solution, say that shoot thinning
(suckers) and shoot trimming (to 10-20 leaves) can be done annually as a
"band aid" fix.[ But they _don't_ talk about lateral removal!! Hmmmm...]

Cox, in his readable if not overly technical "From Vines to Wines"
actually does come out in favor of removing laterals to favor the main cane.

BTW, I didn't mean to imply my commercial winemaking friend actually
_gets_ to remove laterals. It's clearly impossible to do so on a large
scale. But I've seen him pull enough of them while walking the rows to
know that he would do it generally if he could. His explanation was in
line with mine. He's had exceptional results with Vinifera here in NJ
for over 20 years, so I value his experience.

Also,Bob, what yield per vine do you aim for with your Chambourcin? I
look for about 15#, or 15 clusters per vine. I cluster thin to that
level, usually one per shoot. I'm wondering if trying for quality over
quantity is adding to my vigor problem.

Lastly, I like the idea of following nature's lead in letting the vines
grow as nature intended. Unfortunately, we're not asking the vines to
grow & produce as they do in nature. We grow artificially selected
varieties & clones, selected not on the basis of survivability, but
rather on the bases of flavor, sugar production, disease resistance,
etc. And we want uniform, high quality crops every year. Natural,
untinkered-with growth doesn't easily lend itself to these. "Natural"
wine is seldom good wine, IMHO. We all do some level of tinkering, if
only at the level of varietal selection & pruning. Like you, I prefer to
tinker as little as possible, and try to follow the vines' lead. But I'm
still trying to figure these vines out after 7 years.

Ahhhh...Sometimes I think I think too much. And talk too much. Sorry for
the long post.


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA