Mike,

Can't argue with what you said. I live 40 miles north of NYC so I know
exactly how much rain you recieved last year and now this year. It's
interesting that combing them down decreases vigor. I guess it has to
do with apical dominance. Do you get alot of suckers near the ground
every year??? If you "sucker" them maybe you can let them grow until
they get in the way of the downward shoots. Also I assume you have
grass in the row middles and iff your vines are THAT vigourous maybe
you should try growing grass UNDER the vines also. What do you do for
excess water??? My site is VERY sandy and the vigor while still strong
is average I would say. BTW, what was the brix on your Chambourcin
last year?? I could only get 16 out of mine.

Bob

MikeMTM > wrote in message ws.com>...
> bob wrote:
> > Darwin,
> >
> > Last year was a tough year for getting grapes ripe. Along with
> > everyone else I learned alot. Here is what I am doing now after the
> > last 2 years. Like yourself I'm ADDING vines to my rows so instead of
> > 8 ft spacings it's now 4 ft in-row spacing. I'm trying to convert from
> > a Geneva Double curtain to a VSP with only 1 fruiting wire. Here's
> > why. The vines I grow, chambourcin, have an upright growing pattern
> > and DO NOT match very well to a high cordon system especially the GDC
> > with 8 ft between POST spacing. The shoots were so hard to comb down I
> > needed a machette to get through. I've learned that before you pick a
> > trellis system you NEED to understand the growing pattern of the vines
> > your trying to grow. I also am a big believer now that even though the
> > GDC gives plenty of light and airflow it's a tougher trellis system to
> > manage with an upright growing vine. So I think what you have as far
> > as vine spacing is actually not bad BUT IMHO you need to have only 1
> > fruiting wire to facilitate airflow and light interception for quality
> > fruit and buds. The closer the spacings the more potential crop you
> > will have because of the extra vines but you can't over crop or
> > vegetate the vines. 4X5 spacing is fine, they use close spacings in
> > europe. The reason for such big between row spacings talked about so
> > often is for the machinery needed to tend to the vines NOT the growing
> > needs of the vines.Actually , the smaller spacings will naturally
> > inhibit the vines because of the competition between them. Like you
> > said , thinning is a way to increase quality BUT if you prune heavily
> > to 2 canes laid in opposite direction with the correct # of buds for
> > the variety, which would be 1/2 the recommended for 8ft in-row
> > spacings since now your using 4ft, you'll have a canopy easily
> > penetrated by air, light and fungicides with the fruit happy as a pig
> > in spit. Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > Bob
> Bob,
>
> I agree with just about all you said, and you said it well. But I think
> one needs to take into account the site's growing vigor too.
>
> I too grow some Chambourcin, but on a very fertile site, with high
> summer rainfall and somewhat less than full sun exposure. Because of the
> very adequate moisture, the competitive effect of close spacing doesn't
> seem to work and the vines want to grow leggy, with long internodes. My
> solution has been to train them to a high (6") single wire curtain. A
> moveable catchwire allows me to force the normally upward growing shoots
> downward, with a marked decrease in vigor. This also keeps the fruiting
> zone above the bulk of the foliage & in better sun after I strip the
> basal leaves at veraison. Being high up also keeps the fruiting buds out
> of ground-hugging frosts, as my site slopes & there's good air drainage.
>
> I think a lot of people have read "Sunlight into Wine", by Smart &
> Robinson, and tried to apply their techniques. I did. The trouble is,
> what works well for Vinifera in New Zealand doesn't seem to work for FA
> hybrids in the eastern US. I'd be happy to hear from anybody who had
> similar/different experiences.