Hello all

Since I've asked a couple questions recently, I thought it would be a
good idea to introduce myself.

I'm a married guy (wife and four kids) in southern Vermont, USA. I've
loved wine since I was old enough to drink it, though never really got
too far into it. Started a very small collection, totaled about a case,
about six years ago. At the time I liked Beaujolais-Villages, some
light Cabs, and number one was Alsatian Gewurztraminer. After moving to
VT and keeping only a few bottles from the collection, I found no one to
enjoy wine with. Wife doesn't drink at all.

Several months ago, my brother-in-law watched Sideways. He was so
inspired by it that he came to visit, and declared we will now be wine
aficionados. OK, no problem here. Since then, every week I have hosted
a wine tasting/family meal for both of our families. Which is
excellent, I love to cook, and of course wine :-)

The good part of this is obvious - someone to enjoy wine with. Hardest
part was getting brother-in-law off of the Pinot kick. Tasting pinots
side by side every week gets a little tedious. Sideways, I love you and
hate you... But thankfully now we have branched out into different
wines. When I purchase a bottle of white, it's usually not embraced
with open arms, though it does get tasted and enjoyed. The rose I have
for today is really going to cause a stir...

I happen to prefer reds as long as they are not too tannic, pretty much
equal preference between a French style and California style. For
whites, I still enjoy the rose and lychee nose of a good Gewurz, and
Sauvignon Blanc on occasion. Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
was really, really good. I'm learning more about French wines, but
Italian wines are still a mystery to me. And mostly I stick to the
mid-grade wines, with the rare foray into the upper-mid grade offerings.

After I get some more experience with coherent tasting notes, I'll be
posting them.

-ben

Ben Snyder > wrote in news:Y8Odna7jqr-
:

Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
> was really, really good.>

So Ben, from Vermont . .. B in l not named Jerry I trust. What was the
Chard you liked? Things like that make knowing your palate much easier.
Don't worry about the Rose it will probably have more fruit than most
whites so you can always say, "Be happy, it could have been a pinot
gris!"

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Hello Ben,

Be you welcome. Grab a chair and call the cat a *******. Never mind
alligator. Did you bring some chocolates?

Seriously, no doubt you'll fit in very well. I am personally a great fan of
Alsace Gwz, even though these days I drink more Pinot Gris.

Cheers

Nils GUstaF

Welcome, Ben. When you get around to notes tell us about any good VT
cheese you run across, too.

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:35:14 -0400, Ben Snyder >
wrote:

>Hello all
>
>Since I've asked a couple questions recently, I thought it would be a
>good idea to introduce myself.

A rare example of social grace which is increasingly hard to come by
these days. Welcome aboard.
>
>I'm a married guy (wife and four kids) in southern Vermont, USA. I've
>loved wine since I was old enough to drink it, though never really got
>too far into it. Started a very small collection, totaled about a case,
>about six years ago. At the time I liked Beaujolais-Villages, some
>light Cabs, and number one was Alsatian Gewurztraminer. After moving to
>VT and keeping only a few bottles from the collection, I found no one to
>enjoy wine with. Wife doesn't drink at all.

I'm a fan of Alsace Gewurz and Reisling as well. (Someone will jump up
shortly from the Euro contingent to point out that Alsatian is a
dog--what we in the colonies usually refer to as a German Shepherd.)

Does you wife not drink because of distaste for alcohol or because she
doesn't like wine? If the former, then that's fine. If the latter, she
might be eased into enjoyment as you explore the world of wine. Get
into the habit of wine with meals and always offer her a small portion
of the current bottle. She may find something she enjoys. Meanwhile,
you maintain that rare social grace.
>
>Several months ago, my brother-in-law watched Sideways. He was so
>inspired by it that he came to visit, and declared we will now be wine
>aficionados. OK, no problem here. Since then, every week I have hosted
>a wine tasting/family meal for both of our families. Which is
>excellent, I love to cook, and of course wine :-)
>
>The good part of this is obvious - someone to enjoy wine with. Hardest
>part was getting brother-in-law off of the Pinot kick. Tasting pinots
>side by side every week gets a little tedious. Sideways, I love you and
>hate you... But thankfully now we have branched out into different
>wines. When I purchase a bottle of white, it's usually not embraced
>with open arms, though it does get tasted and enjoyed. The rose I have
>for today is really going to cause a stir...

Sideways did a lot for the wine community--some of it good and some
bad. Merlot, for example, can now be purchased for less but must be
consummed from a brown paper bag to keep the varietal name
undiscovered. Pinot Noir, OTOH, has continued to soar in price for
quality wine.
>
>I happen to prefer reds as long as they are not too tannic, pretty much
>equal preference between a French style and California style. For
>whites, I still enjoy the rose and lychee nose of a good Gewurz, and
>Sauvignon Blanc on occasion. Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
>was really, really good. I'm learning more about French wines, but
>Italian wines are still a mystery to me. And mostly I stick to the
>mid-grade wines, with the rare foray into the upper-mid grade offerings.

I've found that a good way to discover new wines is to find a
restaurant that you enjoy which has a good, affordable wine list. You
pay more obviously than buying directly from the wine store, but you
benefit from having a knowledgeable source doing the research and
filtering the list down to quality offerings. I particularly
benefitted from an Italian upscale chain (Biaggi's) which had a
"reserve" wine list with some excellent examples of Barolo,
Barberesco, Chianti Classico and Super-Tuscans. I used to joke that
dinner at Biaggi always cost me several hundred dollars because I
would inevitably return home to order a case of something I'd tried at
dinner.
>
>After I get some more experience with coherent tasting notes, I'll be
>posting them.
>
So many wines, so little time. Prosit.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed Rasimus > wrote in
news
> I'm a fan of Alsace Gewurz and Reisling as well. (Someone will jump up
> shortly from the Euro contingent to point out that Alsatian is a
> dog--what we in the colonies usually refer to as a German Shepherd.)

Uhh, would that not be a Berger Belgique to which you refer?

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Joseph Coulter wrote:
> Ben Snyder > wrote in news:Y8Odna7jqr-
> :
>
> Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
>> was really, really good.>
>
> So Ben, from Vermont . .. B in l not named Jerry I trust. What was the
> Chard you liked? Things like that make knowing your palate much easier.
> Don't worry about the Rose it will probably have more fruit than most
> whites so you can always say, "Be happy, it could have been a pinot
> gris!"
>

I need to look in my notes to find the Chard. I believe it may have
been the Simi Reserve. It was from California, not overly buttery. Not
as sharp? as a French unoaked, though it wasn't dominated by vanilla.
Quite crisp with a very pronounced nose of mainly apple, granny smith or
similar green/yellow apple. Very slight biscuit/toast note in the nose
but not detectable on the palate. Bold flavor though, more than I come
to expect from a white.
Funny thing, most notes on this chard indicate peach, though I didn't
detect any.

DaleW wrote:
> Welcome, Ben. When you get around to notes tell us about any good VT
> cheese you run across, too.
>

Definitely will. I used to try staying away from local cheese and
trying more exotic things, but always come back to the old standard
sharp cheddars. The absolute best so far is this three-year aged
cheddar from Cabot. The only places I've seen it is from a local meat
market, but probably available in other places as well.

Manchego and erhaki are my favorite cheese overall, though sharp cheddar
is now my favorite with almost any type of wine.

-ben

Ed Rasimus wrote:
--snip--
>
> I'm a fan of Alsace Gewurz and Reisling as well. (Someone will jump up
> shortly from the Euro contingent to point out that Alsatian is a
> dog--what we in the colonies usually refer to as a German Shepherd.)

Ah, maybe I should add 'wet Alsatian' to my list of 'bad
characteristics' :-)

Forgot about Alsace Riesling. Very good, only had about two so far but
love 'em.

>
> Does you wife not drink because of distaste for alcohol or because she
> doesn't like wine? If the former, then that's fine. If the latter, she
> might be eased into enjoyment as you explore the world of wine. Get
> into the habit of wine with meals and always offer her a small portion
> of the current bottle. She may find something she enjoys. Meanwhile,
> you maintain that rare social grace.

My wife is a good sport, she's tried almost every wine I have, but in
general doesn't like wine. The only ones she will drink more than a sip
of is a sweet Gewurz (like Duck Walk Vineyard's ice wine), and there is
one other which I can't remember. Another gewurz, a bit sweet and had
the slightest bit of bubbles though it was considered a still wine.
Reds, she absolutely hates, even Beaujolais Nouveau. Too strong in flavor.

Several years ago, I bought a bottle of Syrah. Jekel. Didn't let it
breathe at all, poured two glasses and let her try first. She choked,
and for a moment though I was really trying to poison her. Until I
tried a sip too. Way to tannic, it was either a really bad Syrah or
should have aged a bit longer and then aired before drinking.

>> Several months ago, my brother-in-law watched Sideways. He was so
>> inspired by it that he came to visit, and declared we will now be wine
>> aficionados. OK, no problem here. Since then, every week I have hosted
>> a wine tasting/family meal for both of our families. Which is
>> excellent, I love to cook, and of course wine :-)
>>
>> The good part of this is obvious - someone to enjoy wine with. Hardest
>> part was getting brother-in-law off of the Pinot kick. Tasting pinots
>> side by side every week gets a little tedious. Sideways, I love you and
>> hate you... But thankfully now we have branched out into different
>> wines. When I purchase a bottle of white, it's usually not embraced
>> with open arms, though it does get tasted and enjoyed. The rose I have
>> for today is really going to cause a stir...
>
> Sideways did a lot for the wine community--some of it good and some
> bad. Merlot, for example, can now be purchased for less but must be
> consummed from a brown paper bag to keep the varietal name
> undiscovered. Pinot Noir, OTOH, has continued to soar in price for
> quality wine.

Yeah, I had to hide the bottles of Merlot I served to my brother-in-law.

>> I happen to prefer reds as long as they are not too tannic, pretty much
>> equal preference between a French style and California style. For
>> whites, I still enjoy the rose and lychee nose of a good Gewurz, and
>> Sauvignon Blanc on occasion. Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
>> was really, really good. I'm learning more about French wines, but
>> Italian wines are still a mystery to me. And mostly I stick to the
>> mid-grade wines, with the rare foray into the upper-mid grade offerings.
>
> I've found that a good way to discover new wines is to find a
> restaurant that you enjoy which has a good, affordable wine list. You
> pay more obviously than buying directly from the wine store, but you
> benefit from having a knowledgeable source doing the research and
> filtering the list down to quality offerings. I particularly
> benefitted from an Italian upscale chain (Biaggi's) which had a
> "reserve" wine list with some excellent examples of Barolo,
> Barberesco, Chianti Classico and Super-Tuscans. I used to joke that
> dinner at Biaggi always cost me several hundred dollars because I
> would inevitably return home to order a case of something I'd tried at
> dinner.

One somewhat local wine merchant is amazing. He follows the rule of not
upselling (say you want to spend $20, he offers anything from $13-$19 or
so) and every selection he suggested based on very sketchy details has
been astounding. There's also a very well rated restaurant withing
walking distance which I plan to visit very soon. Wine Spectator rated
their wine list very well also.

-ben

"Joseph Coulter" > skrev i meddelandet
. 97.136...
> Ed Rasimus > wrote in
> news >
>> I'm a fan of Alsace Gewurz and Reisling as well. (Someone will jump up
>> shortly from the Euro contingent to point out that Alsatian is a
>> dog--what we in the colonies usually refer to as a German Shepherd.)
>
> Uhh, would that not be a Berger Belgique to which you refer?


THis is a spin-off from previous belligerence in the Old Mother COntinent
(=Europe) - calling the shepherd Alsatian rather than German - slightly like
calling Missy Queeny's family Mountbatten rather than Battenberg. No
worries[1], today we are all good EU-citizens, including the Alsatian
doggies.

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

[1] I am reallly really getting into the atmosphere for this Oz voyage, and
no mistake, but you drongos all noticed. She'll be right.

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

Ben Snyder wrote:
> Forgot about Alsace Riesling. Very good, only had about two so far but
> love 'em.

Welcome to the newsgroup. And I'm also very fond of Riesling. Only
tried a few from Alsace and Germany, I'm more familiar/fond of the
Australian and New Zealand versions of it (particularly those from
Marlborough & Waipara).

Like Gewurz as well, but not had enough in the past of my own good.
Perhaps because usually when I go for whites, it's either Riesling or
Sauvignon blanc.

> Reds, she absolutely hates, even Beaujolais Nouveau. Too strong in flavor.

I'd be interested in seeing the sorts of reds you/she have tasted. Any
Aussie ones there? There are a lot of Aussie reds out there that are
'easy drinking' wines, not too strong in flavour but with a good palate
and character - and many are very reasonably priced too.

Salil

Salil wrote:
> Ben Snyder wrote:
>> Forgot about Alsace Riesling. Very good, only had about two so far but
>> love 'em.
>
> Welcome to the newsgroup. And I'm also very fond of Riesling. Only
> tried a few from Alsace and Germany, I'm more familiar/fond of the
> Australian and New Zealand versions of it (particularly those from
> Marlborough & Waipara).

I'll definitely try them out.

> Like Gewurz as well, but not had enough in the past of my own good.
> Perhaps because usually when I go for whites, it's either Riesling or
> Sauvignon blanc.
>
>> Reds, she absolutely hates, even Beaujolais Nouveau. Too strong in flavor.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing the sorts of reds you/she have tasted. Any
> Aussie ones there? There are a lot of Aussie reds out there that are
> 'easy drinking' wines, not too strong in flavour but with a good palate
> and character - and many are very reasonably priced too.

I've had a few Australian shiraz, latest was a Jacob's Creek. Wife
wouldn't touch it - I can't think of a red lighter than Beaujolais
Nouveau.

A few days ago she tried a sip of a Fleurie. There was a lot more in
the nose than in flavor, though I enjoyed it. Very straightforward, not
complex, but unique. Nose of orchid and iris. She tried it, and could
tolerate it but did not enjoy it.

Methinks I'll be exploring more white wines so she can maybe find
something she enjoys.

-ben

Ben Snyder wrote:
> Hello all
>
> Since I've asked a couple questions recently, I thought it would be a
> good idea to introduce myself.
>
> I'm a married guy (wife and four kids) in southern Vermont, USA. I've
> loved wine since I was old enough to drink it, though never really got
> too far into it. Started a very small collection, totaled about a case,
> about six years ago. At the time I liked Beaujolais-Villages, some
> light Cabs, and number one was Alsatian Gewurztraminer. After moving to
> VT and keeping only a few bottles from the collection, I found no one to
> enjoy wine with. Wife doesn't drink at all.
>
> Several months ago, my brother-in-law watched Sideways. He was so
> inspired by it that he came to visit, and declared we will now be wine
> aficionados. OK, no problem here. Since then, every week I have hosted
> a wine tasting/family meal for both of our families. Which is
> excellent, I love to cook, and of course wine :-)
>
> The good part of this is obvious - someone to enjoy wine with. Hardest
> part was getting brother-in-law off of the Pinot kick. Tasting pinots
> side by side every week gets a little tedious. Sideways, I love you and
> hate you... But thankfully now we have branched out into different
> wines. When I purchase a bottle of white, it's usually not embraced
> with open arms, though it does get tasted and enjoyed. The rose I have
> for today is really going to cause a stir...
>
> I happen to prefer reds as long as they are not too tannic, pretty much
> equal preference between a French style and California style. For
> whites, I still enjoy the rose and lychee nose of a good Gewurz, and
> Sauvignon Blanc on occasion. Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
> was really, really good. I'm learning more about French wines, but
> Italian wines are still a mystery to me. And mostly I stick to the
> mid-grade wines, with the rare foray into the upper-mid grade offerings.
>
> After I get some more experience with coherent tasting notes, I'll be
> posting them.
>
> -ben

Typical Americans. They think that 'tasting' is the way to learn about
wine. Stop the tasting and start drinking them, with food. Do not
'evaluate' the wines. Drink them and enjoy them. Note which ones you
liked best, and do nothing else. Do not 'over-think' this. Do you make
'tasting notes' of every chicken you eat?

Damn!

> Do you make 'tasting notes' of every chicken you eat?

Well put.

But the answer is yes, after a fashion. Certainly the chef of the house
does (and for that I'm grateful!). When cooking, one needs to select
herbs, spices, sauce ingredients, accompaniments... and all these things
interplay into each other to make one meal memorable and another one
so-so. The next time you're going to prepare chicken, do you poke
around your spice cabinet at random? I don't, neither does my wife. We
know what works well together, and what works better with lamb instead.

She makes "tasting notes" for chicken (etc) and has compiled a rather
extensive (and wonderful) handwritten cookbook, which I continually
benefit from. She also is very good at remembering stuff, and at
identifying the sources of flavors when we go out to eat, so she can
duplicate and improve upon what she's already had.

I see no difference between this and keeping notes of what wines you
liked with what foods, and why. It's the "why" part that will lead you
to new combinations that will work nicely, and help you avoid the ones
that probably won't. And since, as my choir director is fond of saying,
"elephants have memories, people have pencils", tasting notes can be
quite useful in that regard.

Tasting notes are especially useful if you are laying away a case or two
of something for a few years, because in a few years you'll forget what
kind of food it goes best with. It is less useful if this is the only
bottle of whatever is is you're drinking, and you're not going to be
able to get another even if you liked it.

Sharing tasting notes is also a good way to introduce others to wines
you liked (or didn't) and why, and what it is likely to go with.

I used to think that this business of "what wine goes with what food"
was overblown poppycock, until one day when I had one of my favorite
whites (I forget which) and was quite disappointed in it. I forget what
I was having with it but there were several items. I took out the wine
reccomendation list from Telluride Restaurant in Stamford (my first
source and a favorite restaurant), and sure enough, I had some "food
foes" of this wine on the plate, and some "food friendly" choices too.
So, I took the opportunity to taste the wine with each of the courses.

It made a world of difference. I was blown away. With one of the
foods, the wine was restored to its former glory. With another of them,
it was rendered bland and uninteresting - and it was the same wine from
the same glass.

Alas, I did not take notes.

I thought I remembered pine nuts and a sauvignon blanc were part of the
deal, but my Telluride listing does not show that combination, so that
wasn't it. And now I'll never know (and will be unable to share).

But, do try it with other foods. Go to
http://www.telluriderestaurant.com/wines.php
and pick out a wine, and have it with some "food friendly" foods and
some "food foes" at the same time, and compare.

Keep notes. (ps - it works for Italian wines too)

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

UC wrote:
> Ben Snyder wrote:
>> Hello all
>>
>> Since I've asked a couple questions recently, I thought it would be a
>> good idea to introduce myself.
>>
>> I'm a married guy (wife and four kids) in southern Vermont, USA. I've
>> loved wine since I was old enough to drink it, though never really got
>> too far into it. Started a very small collection, totaled about a case,
>> about six years ago. At the time I liked Beaujolais-Villages, some
>> light Cabs, and number one was Alsatian Gewurztraminer. After moving to
>> VT and keeping only a few bottles from the collection, I found no one to
>> enjoy wine with. Wife doesn't drink at all.
>>
>> Several months ago, my brother-in-law watched Sideways. He was so
>> inspired by it that he came to visit, and declared we will now be wine
>> aficionados. OK, no problem here. Since then, every week I have hosted
>> a wine tasting/family meal for both of our families. Which is
>> excellent, I love to cook, and of course wine :-)
>>
>> The good part of this is obvious - someone to enjoy wine with. Hardest
>> part was getting brother-in-law off of the Pinot kick. Tasting pinots
>> side by side every week gets a little tedious. Sideways, I love you and
>> hate you... But thankfully now we have branched out into different
>> wines. When I purchase a bottle of white, it's usually not embraced
>> with open arms, though it does get tasted and enjoyed. The rose I have
>> for today is really going to cause a stir...
>>
>> I happen to prefer reds as long as they are not too tannic, pretty much
>> equal preference between a French style and California style. For
>> whites, I still enjoy the rose and lychee nose of a good Gewurz, and
>> Sauvignon Blanc on occasion. Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
>> was really, really good. I'm learning more about French wines, but
>> Italian wines are still a mystery to me. And mostly I stick to the
>> mid-grade wines, with the rare foray into the upper-mid grade offerings.
>>
>> After I get some more experience with coherent tasting notes, I'll be
>> posting them.
>>
>> -ben
>
> Typical Americans. They think that 'tasting' is the way to learn about
> wine. Stop the tasting and start drinking them, with food. Do not
> 'evaluate' the wines. Drink them and enjoy them. Note which ones you
> liked best, and do nothing else. Do not 'over-think' this. Do you make
> 'tasting notes' of every chicken you eat?
>
> Damn!

Is there such a thing as a 'typical American?' If so, please enlighten
me. I am absolutely tired of Americans being bashed because of
prejudices against us by people of other cultures.

I do make tasting notes of particularly complex dishes that I make, yes.
The purpose is so that I can repeat the experience. Simple fare like
hamburgers, of course not. Key points are complexity and expense - if a
wine is expensive then I will take good notes so I can either avoid or
purchase what I like in the future. Not taking notes can lead to poor
choices, and wasted money. As I get better at knowing my likes and
dislikes, my notes get shorter.

-ben

Ben Snyder wrote:
> I'll definitely try them out.

Keep one thing in mind if you do: Many of the Australian rieslings are
a bit more acidic and go very well with foods (we'd had one from Wynn's
Coonawarra Estate with Lebanese shawarmas, combination was fantastic),
but the NZ ones have a bit more residual sugar and tend to work very
well before meals as well.

> Methinks I'll be exploring more white wines so she can maybe find
> something she enjoys.

Has she been introduced to sweeter late harvest wines? There are some
very good ones out there, and not just from Sauternes. I'm quite fond
of botrytis Semillon - goes great with a lot of desserts, and there are
some very good ones out there on the market. (I'd recently picked up a
375 ml bottle of Peter Lehmann botrytis Semillon [05] for about 21
Sing. dollars, was quite superb.)

Salil

Ben Snyder wrote:

>> Typical Americans. They think that 'tasting' is the way to learn about
>> wine. Stop the tasting and start drinking them, with food. Do not
>> 'evaluate' the wines. Drink them and enjoy them. Note which ones you
>> liked best, and do nothing else. Do not 'over-think' this. Do you make
>> 'tasting notes' of every chicken you eat?
>>
>> Damn!
>
> Is there such a thing as a 'typical American?' If so, please enlighten
> me. I am absolutely tired of Americans being bashed because of
> prejudices against us by people of other cultures.

Ben,
Welcome to alt.food.wine! Unfortunately, you've also met our
resident contrarian, Mr. Michael Scarpitti (aka UC). He is an American,
but for reasons best known only to himself has set himself on a Quixotic
crusade against decanting wine, tasting wine and (God forbid!) drinking
wines not made in Italy.
Pay him no more attention than you feel is warranted. Some afw
contributors have decided that the effort isn't worth the payoff and so
ignore him. YMMV.


>
> I do make tasting notes of particularly complex dishes that I make, yes.
> The purpose is so that I can repeat the experience. Simple fare like
> hamburgers, of course not. Key points are complexity and expense - if a
> wine is expensive then I will take good notes so I can either avoid or
> purchase what I like in the future. Not taking notes can lead to poor
> choices, and wasted money. As I get better at knowing my likes and
> dislikes, my notes get shorter.

Entirely reasonable, Ben. Like others here, I typically drink my wine
with meals, but still want to note down what the wine is like, how well
it pairs with the food and how much more life it may have (in the case
where I have more of it). The beauty of wine is that it's a lifelong
learning experience, and most of us greatly enjoy the homework! ;-)

Mark Lipton

Salil wrote:
> Ben Snyder wrote:
>> I'll definitely try them out.
>
> Keep one thing in mind if you do: Many of the Australian rieslings are
> a bit more acidic and go very well with foods (we'd had one from Wynn's
> Coonawarra Estate with Lebanese shawarmas, combination was fantastic),
> but the NZ ones have a bit more residual sugar and tend to work very
> well before meals as well.
>
>> Methinks I'll be exploring more white wines so she can maybe find
>> something she enjoys.
>
> Has she been introduced to sweeter late harvest wines? There are some
> very good ones out there, and not just from Sauternes. I'm quite fond
> of botrytis Semillon - goes great with a lot of desserts, and there are
> some very good ones out there on the market. (I'd recently picked up a
> 375 ml bottle of Peter Lehmann botrytis Semillon [05] for about 21
> Sing. dollars, was quite superb.)

She has tried a Long Island Duck Walk Vineyards Gewurz, it's a late
harvest. She liked it. Another sweet wine I tried was a muscat - far
too sweet for either of us. I will definitely try out a Semillon when I
can find one.

Mark Lipton wrote:
> Ben Snyder wrote:
>
>>> Typical Americans. They think that 'tasting' is the way to learn about
>>> wine. Stop the tasting and start drinking them, with food. Do not
>>> 'evaluate' the wines. Drink them and enjoy them. Note which ones you
>>> liked best, and do nothing else. Do not 'over-think' this. Do you make
>>> 'tasting notes' of every chicken you eat?
>>>
>>> Damn!
>> Is there such a thing as a 'typical American?' If so, please enlighten
>> me. I am absolutely tired of Americans being bashed because of
>> prejudices against us by people of other cultures.
>
> Ben,
> Welcome to alt.food.wine! Unfortunately, you've also met our
> resident contrarian, Mr. Michael Scarpitti (aka UC). He is an American,
> but for reasons best known only to himself has set himself on a Quixotic
> crusade against decanting wine, tasting wine and (God forbid!) drinking
> wines not made in Italy.
> Pay him no more attention than you feel is warranted. Some afw
> contributors have decided that the effort isn't worth the payoff and so
> ignore him. YMMV.

Thanks for the welcome, great to be here.

>
>
>> I do make tasting notes of particularly complex dishes that I make, yes.
>> The purpose is so that I can repeat the experience. Simple fare like
>> hamburgers, of course not. Key points are complexity and expense - if a
>> wine is expensive then I will take good notes so I can either avoid or
>> purchase what I like in the future. Not taking notes can lead to poor
>> choices, and wasted money. As I get better at knowing my likes and
>> dislikes, my notes get shorter.
>
> Entirely reasonable, Ben. Like others here, I typically drink my wine
> with meals, but still want to note down what the wine is like, how well
> it pairs with the food and how much more life it may have (in the case
> where I have more of it). The beauty of wine is that it's a lifelong
> learning experience, and most of us greatly enjoy the homework! ;-)
Absolutely! I do love this sort of homework.

-ben

Ben Snyder wrote:
> UC wrote:
> > Ben Snyder wrote:
> >> Hello all
> >>
> >> Since I've asked a couple questions recently, I thought it would be a
> >> good idea to introduce myself.
> >>
> >> I'm a married guy (wife and four kids) in southern Vermont, USA. I've
> >> loved wine since I was old enough to drink it, though never really got
> >> too far into it. Started a very small collection, totaled about a case,
> >> about six years ago. At the time I liked Beaujolais-Villages, some
> >> light Cabs, and number one was Alsatian Gewurztraminer. After moving to
> >> VT and keeping only a few bottles from the collection, I found no one to
> >> enjoy wine with. Wife doesn't drink at all.
> >>
> >> Several months ago, my brother-in-law watched Sideways. He was so
> >> inspired by it that he came to visit, and declared we will now be wine
> >> aficionados. OK, no problem here. Since then, every week I have hosted
> >> a wine tasting/family meal for both of our families. Which is
> >> excellent, I love to cook, and of course wine :-)
> >>
> >> The good part of this is obvious - someone to enjoy wine with. Hardest
> >> part was getting brother-in-law off of the Pinot kick. Tasting pinots
> >> side by side every week gets a little tedious. Sideways, I love you and
> >> hate you... But thankfully now we have branched out into different
> >> wines. When I purchase a bottle of white, it's usually not embraced
> >> with open arms, though it does get tasted and enjoyed. The rose I have
> >> for today is really going to cause a stir...
> >>
> >> I happen to prefer reds as long as they are not too tannic, pretty much
> >> equal preference between a French style and California style. For
> >> whites, I still enjoy the rose and lychee nose of a good Gewurz, and
> >> Sauvignon Blanc on occasion. Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
> >> was really, really good. I'm learning more about French wines, but
> >> Italian wines are still a mystery to me. And mostly I stick to the
> >> mid-grade wines, with the rare foray into the upper-mid grade offerings.
> >>
> >> After I get some more experience with coherent tasting notes, I'll be
> >> posting them.
> >>
> >> -ben
> >
> > Typical Americans. They think that 'tasting' is the way to learn about
> > wine. Stop the tasting and start drinking them, with food. Do not
> > 'evaluate' the wines. Drink them and enjoy them. Note which ones you
> > liked best, and do nothing else. Do not 'over-think' this. Do you make
> > 'tasting notes' of every chicken you eat?
> >
> > Damn!
>
> Is there such a thing as a 'typical American?' If so, please enlighten
> me. I am absolutely tired of Americans being bashed because of
> prejudices against us by people of other cultures.

I am American by birth, Italian by ancestry. The typical American way
of doing everything disgusts me, especially with regard to wine. The
behaviour described in the original post is preposterous for a
European. Drinking wine is not a scientific enterprise. It should not
be approached as such. The case of the brother-in-law who saw
"Sideways" and now thinks he needs to avoid Merlot and drink Pinot Noir
(how original) is just too hilarious to believe. He needs to get a
life. I did not need to see "Sideways" to enlighten me that Merlot was
not the be-all and end-all in wine. The problem is that to go beyond
'beginner' one does not have to imitate professionals and engage in
'tasting', which is something that pros who buy and sell wine do. There
is absolutely no reason whatsoever for consumers to 'taste' wine in the
manner of the pros. The reason is that they don't have the
qualifications or experience to do so.

> I do make tasting notes of particularly complex dishes that I make, yes.
> The purpose is so that I can repeat the experience.

That is not 'tasting'; that is drinking with food.

> Simple fare like
> hamburgers, of course not. Key points are complexity and expense - if a
> wine is expensive then I will take good notes so I can either avoid or
> purchase what I like in the future. Not taking notes can lead to poor
> choices, and wasted money. As I get better at knowing my likes and
> dislikes, my notes get shorter.
>
> -ben

Oh for goodness sake Michael, take a pill !!!!!

"Michael Scarpitti" - the Columbus Clown wrote .....

> The typical American way of doing everything disgusts me....
^^^^^^^^^^^

Many of us could totally agree .....
Drive on wrong side of road
Can't speak or write English for shit.....
Bunch of Christian fundamentalist warmongers
A host of other bullshit generalisations which would be as relevant as a
cricket player in Azerbaijan!

The OP is American - just like you!

He *is not* a beginner; he *is not* European!

Unlike you, however, he has an inquiring mind - he wants to learn.

He wants to further his experience - you are a narrow minded idiot.

Game Over !!!!!

Oh, and welcome Ben . By and large, this is a great NG.

--

st.helier
(To quote Dick Neidich - the South Pacific's answer to Jack Lemmon!!!!)

Thanks everyone for the welcome and info. This thread's going to get
buried so I'm hopping off now...

Oh yeah, thanks to UC also. He's fun to play with. I imagine he's this
cranky, self-referential expert in all matters. But at least he pipes
up and says what's on his mind, rude or not. I have to respect that, in
a way.

-ben

Ben Snyder wrote:
> Hello all
>
> Since I've asked a couple questions recently, I thought it would be a
> good idea to introduce myself.
>
> I'm a married guy (wife and four kids) in southern Vermont, USA. I've
> loved wine since I was old enough to drink it, though never really got
> too far into it. Started a very small collection, totaled about a case,
> about six years ago. At the time I liked Beaujolais-Villages, some
> light Cabs, and number one was Alsatian Gewurztraminer. After moving to
> VT and keeping only a few bottles from the collection, I found no one to
> enjoy wine with. Wife doesn't drink at all.
>
> Several months ago, my brother-in-law watched Sideways. He was so
> inspired by it that he came to visit, and declared we will now be wine
> aficionados. OK, no problem here. Since then, every week I have hosted
> a wine tasting/family meal for both of our families. Which is
> excellent, I love to cook, and of course wine :-)
>
> The good part of this is obvious - someone to enjoy wine with. Hardest
> part was getting brother-in-law off of the Pinot kick. Tasting pinots
> side by side every week gets a little tedious. Sideways, I love you and
> hate you... But thankfully now we have branched out into different
> wines. When I purchase a bottle of white, it's usually not embraced
> with open arms, though it does get tasted and enjoyed. The rose I have
> for today is really going to cause a stir...
>
> I happen to prefer reds as long as they are not too tannic, pretty much
> equal preference between a French style and California style. For
> whites, I still enjoy the rose and lychee nose of a good Gewurz, and
> Sauvignon Blanc on occasion. Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
> was really, really good. I'm learning more about French wines, but
> Italian wines are still a mystery to me. And mostly I stick to the
> mid-grade wines, with the rare foray into the upper-mid grade offerings.
>
> After I get some more experience with coherent tasting notes, I'll be
> posting them.
>
> -ben

UC wrote:
--snip--

> I am American by birth, Italian by ancestry. The typical American way
> of doing everything disgusts me, especially with regard to wine. The
> behaviour described in the original post is preposterous for a
> European. Drinking wine is not a scientific enterprise. It should not
> be approached as such. The case of the brother-in-law who saw
> "Sideways" and now thinks he needs to avoid Merlot and drink Pinot Noir
> (how original) is just too hilarious to believe.

yeah, it was pretty funny so i posted it.

> He needs to get a
> life. I did not need to see "Sideways" to enlighten me that Merlot was
> not the be-all and end-all in wine. The problem is that to go beyond
> 'beginner' one does not have to imitate professionals and engage in
> 'tasting', which is something that pros who buy and sell wine do. There
> is absolutely no reason whatsoever for consumers to 'taste' wine in the
> manner of the pros. The reason is that they don't have the
> qualifications or experience to do so.

i don't remember posting that i taste 'in the manner of pros'. next
time i open a bottle, i'll be sure to not taste it at all.

Ben Snyder wrote:
> UC wrote:
> --snip--
>
> > I am American by birth, Italian by ancestry. The typical American way
> > of doing everything disgusts me, especially with regard to wine. The
> > behaviour described in the original post is preposterous for a
> > European. Drinking wine is not a scientific enterprise. It should not
> > be approached as such. The case of the brother-in-law who saw
> > "Sideways" and now thinks he needs to avoid Merlot and drink Pinot Noir
> > (how original) is just too hilarious to believe.
>
> yeah, it was pretty funny so i posted it.
>
> > He needs to get a
> > life. I did not need to see "Sideways" to enlighten me that Merlot was
> > not the be-all and end-all in wine. The problem is that to go beyond
> > 'beginner' one does not have to imitate professionals and engage in
> > 'tasting', which is something that pros who buy and sell wine do. There
> > is absolutely no reason whatsoever for consumers to 'taste' wine in the
> > manner of the pros. The reason is that they don't have the
> > qualifications or experience to do so.
>
> i don't remember posting that i taste 'in the manner of pros'. next
> time i open a bottle, i'll be sure to not taste it at all.

'Taste' means to sip, swill around in the mouth, and spit out, not
simply to swallow with food.

Ben, I attnend some wine dinners occationally in my area. It can be amazing
how wines can influence foods but more likely how foods influence wines.

Also, I have noticed that a French Bordeaux or Burgandy has a hard tome
following the more fruity California wines. So order of serving does make a
differnece and what it is served with.

Finally UC makes many a good point in this group and is a contributor. You
may or may not like what he posts but he does speak his mind. I think from
looking at his posts over the months there is a common thread in them. You
don't have to be a snob to enjoy wine. Wine is for enjoyment. Don't get
stressed out by it. I tend to agree with him on that. You will find
postings here on the most expensive wine have you bought, currently own in
value etc. UC is correct that wine does not have to be about snobbery.

Hope you enjoy the group.





"Ben Snyder" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks everyone for the welcome and info. This thread's going to get
> buried so I'm hopping off now...
>
> Oh yeah, thanks to UC also. He's fun to play with. I imagine he's this
> cranky, self-referential expert in all matters. But at least he pipes up
> and says what's on his mind, rude or not. I have to respect that, in a
> way.
>
> -ben
>
> Ben Snyder wrote:
>> Hello all
>>
>> Since I've asked a couple questions recently, I thought it would be a
>> good idea to introduce myself.
>>
>> I'm a married guy (wife and four kids) in southern Vermont, USA. I've
>> loved wine since I was old enough to drink it, though never really got
>> too far into it. Started a very small collection, totaled about a case,
>> about six years ago. At the time I liked Beaujolais-Villages, some light
>> Cabs, and number one was Alsatian Gewurztraminer. After moving to VT and
>> keeping only a few bottles from the collection, I found no one to enjoy
>> wine with. Wife doesn't drink at all.
>>
>> Several months ago, my brother-in-law watched Sideways. He was so
>> inspired by it that he came to visit, and declared we will now be wine
>> aficionados. OK, no problem here. Since then, every week I have hosted
>> a wine tasting/family meal for both of our families. Which is excellent,
>> I love to cook, and of course wine :-)
>>
>> The good part of this is obvious - someone to enjoy wine with. Hardest
>> part was getting brother-in-law off of the Pinot kick. Tasting pinots
>> side by side every week gets a little tedious. Sideways, I love you and
>> hate you... But thankfully now we have branched out into different wines.
>> When I purchase a bottle of white, it's usually not embraced with open
>> arms, though it does get tasted and enjoyed. The rose I have for today
>> is really going to cause a stir...
>>
>> I happen to prefer reds as long as they are not too tannic, pretty much
>> equal preference between a French style and California style. For
>> whites, I still enjoy the rose and lychee nose of a good Gewurz, and
>> Sauvignon Blanc on occasion. Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
>> was really, really good. I'm learning more about French wines, but
>> Italian wines are still a mystery to me. And mostly I stick to the
>> mid-grade wines, with the rare foray into the upper-mid grade offerings.
>>
>> After I get some more experience with coherent tasting notes, I'll be
>> posting them.
>>
>> -ben

> 'Taste' means to sip, swill around in the mouth, and spit out, not
> simply to swallow with food.

Ok, now some of your rants are clearer.

I see no reason to spit out perfectly good wine (unless I'm tasting a
lot of different wines and don't want go get squiffed). In the normal
course of drinking wine with food, however, I do sniff (this brings me
pleasure, as the aromas are usually worth the snort), I do sip (as
opposed to gulp, but this is merely quantity control, not an
affectation), and swill (that is, swish the wine around so that I can
get the most taste sensation) without making a big deal of it. Yes,
different areas of the mouth respond differently to food.

(as an aside, try eating with your opposite hand, and on the opposite
side of your mouth - there actually is a subtle but noticable difference
from what you're probably used to)

Sometimes I do "wine tasting" when I'm going from winery to winery to
pick out the wines I want to spend money on and carry 3000 miles to
home. I usually swallow those too (why waste it) but one can end up
drinking enough to dull the senses that way, so spitting out (especially
the wines that are... er... less sensational is not a bad idea. But
this is a special case.

I suspect that most people who "taste" wine are either really "drinking
with food" (or drinking without food) and calling it tasting, or are
simply choosing what to buy.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
> > 'Taste' means to sip, swill around in the mouth, and spit out, not
> > simply to swallow with food.
>
> Ok, now some of your rants are clearer.
>
> I see no reason to spit out perfectly good wine (unless I'm tasting a
> lot of different wines and don't want go get squiffed).

But that is what you do in 'tasting'. You don't swallow it, because
you'll get drunk if you're tasting a number of wines.

> In the normal
> course of drinking wine with food, however, I do sniff (this brings me
> pleasure, as the aromas are usually worth the snort), I do sip (as
> opposed to gulp, but this is merely quantity control, not an
> affectation), and swill (that is, swish the wine around so that I can
> get the most taste sensation) without making a big deal of it. Yes,
> different areas of the mouth respond differently to food.
>
> (as an aside, try eating with your opposite hand, and on the opposite
> side of your mouth - there actually is a subtle but noticable difference
> from what you're probably used to)
>
> Sometimes I do "wine tasting" when I'm going from winery to winery to
> pick out the wines I want to spend money on and carry 3000 miles to
> home. I usually swallow those too (why waste it) but one can end up
> drinking enough to dull the senses that way, so spitting out (especially
> the wines that are... er... less sensational is not a bad idea. But
> this is a special case.
>
> I suspect that most people who "taste" wine are either really "drinking
> with food" (or drinking without food) and calling it tasting, or are
> simply choosing what to buy.

But that's not 'tasting' as such.
>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Richard Neidich wrote:
> Ben, I attnend some wine dinners occationally in my area. It can be amazing
> how wines can influence foods but more likely how foods influence wines.

Thank you. Finally someone else gets it.
>
> Also, I have noticed that a French Bordeaux or Burgandy has a hard tome
> following the more fruity California wines. So order of serving does make a
> differnece and what it is served with.
>
> Finally UC makes many a good point in this group and is a contributor. You
> may or may not like what he posts but he does speak his mind. I think from
> looking at his posts over the months there is a common thread in them. You
> don't have to be a snob to enjoy wine. Wine is for enjoyment. Don't get
> stressed out by it. I tend to agree with him on that. You will find
> postings here on the most expensive wine have you bought, currently own in
> value etc. UC is correct that wine does not have to be about snobbery.
>
> Hope you enjoy the group.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Ben Snyder" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks everyone for the welcome and info. This thread's going to get
> > buried so I'm hopping off now...
> >
> > Oh yeah, thanks to UC also. He's fun to play with. I imagine he's this
> > cranky, self-referential expert in all matters. But at least he pipes up
> > and says what's on his mind, rude or not. I have to respect that, in a
> > way.
> >
> > -ben
> >
> > Ben Snyder wrote:
> >> Hello all
> >>
> >> Since I've asked a couple questions recently, I thought it would be a
> >> good idea to introduce myself.
> >>
> >> I'm a married guy (wife and four kids) in southern Vermont, USA. I've
> >> loved wine since I was old enough to drink it, though never really got
> >> too far into it. Started a very small collection, totaled about a case,
> >> about six years ago. At the time I liked Beaujolais-Villages, some light
> >> Cabs, and number one was Alsatian Gewurztraminer. After moving to VT and
> >> keeping only a few bottles from the collection, I found no one to enjoy
> >> wine with. Wife doesn't drink at all.
> >>
> >> Several months ago, my brother-in-law watched Sideways. He was so
> >> inspired by it that he came to visit, and declared we will now be wine
> >> aficionados. OK, no problem here. Since then, every week I have hosted
> >> a wine tasting/family meal for both of our families. Which is excellent,
> >> I love to cook, and of course wine :-)
> >>
> >> The good part of this is obvious - someone to enjoy wine with. Hardest
> >> part was getting brother-in-law off of the Pinot kick. Tasting pinots
> >> side by side every week gets a little tedious. Sideways, I love you and
> >> hate you... But thankfully now we have branched out into different wines.
> >> When I purchase a bottle of white, it's usually not embraced with open
> >> arms, though it does get tasted and enjoyed. The rose I have for today
> >> is really going to cause a stir...
> >>
> >> I happen to prefer reds as long as they are not too tannic, pretty much
> >> equal preference between a French style and California style. For
> >> whites, I still enjoy the rose and lychee nose of a good Gewurz, and
> >> Sauvignon Blanc on occasion. Only had one Chard which I enjoyed, but it
> >> was really, really good. I'm learning more about French wines, but
> >> Italian wines are still a mystery to me. And mostly I stick to the
> >> mid-grade wines, with the rare foray into the upper-mid grade offerings.
> >>
> >> After I get some more experience with coherent tasting notes, I'll be
> >> posting them.
> >>
> >> -ben

>>I suspect that most people who "taste" wine are either really "drinking
>> with food" (or drinking without food) and calling it tasting, or are
>> simply choosing what to buy.
>
> But that's not 'tasting' as such.

Exactly. And thus, much of what you rant about isn't really happening.

In the first case, people are using the word "tasting" to mean "drinking
with food". So your rant is misplaced there (and is probably more
lexicographical anyway).

In the second case, well, that =is= tasting (whether they spit out or
not), but it is done for the right reasons, and I suspect you aren't
really ranting about =that= (professional or no).

The third case is posting "tasting notes" here. This is of benefit to
those who can't taste (to choose) the wines in question, and are in the
wine store faced with row upon row of pretty labels. Picking based on
somebody else's posted tasting notes is not ideal, but beats picking
based on bottle size or label color. (although I admit I once picked a
bottle based on the name of the wine being the same as a town near my
home - that bottle was disappointing) (more correctly, the wine in the
bottle was disappointing)

And irrespective of that, sharing "tasting notes" is just another form
of conversation about something we enjoy (drinking wine, with or without
food).

So, while you're right to knock the pretension, there's probably a lot
less of it here than you think.

Jose
(this post rated 83.2638 points on the Modified Parker Posting Scale
(TM), three stars on the Unified Usenet index, and B/B+ on the DaleW
Appropriated Index. Grade disclaimer - A is an excellent post, B is a
good post, anything rated C or below I wouldn't read even if the only
other choice were a milk carton.
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
> >>I suspect that most people who "taste" wine are either really "drinking
> >> with food" (or drinking without food) and calling it tasting, or are
> >> simply choosing what to buy.
> >
> > But that's not 'tasting' as such.
>
> Exactly. And thus, much of what you rant about isn't really happening.
>
> In the first case, people are using the word "tasting" to mean "drinking
> with food". So your rant is misplaced there (and is probably more
> lexicographical anyway).

I go by what they write. If they say 'tasting', I always refer to the
professional tasters' method: sip, swill, spit.

> In the second case, well, that =is= tasting (whether they spit out or
> not), but it is done for the right reasons, and I suspect you aren't
> really ranting about =that= (professional or no).
>
> The third case is posting "tasting notes" here. This is of benefit to
> those who can't taste (to choose) the wines in question, and are in the
> wine store faced with row upon row of pretty labels. Picking based on
> somebody else's posted tasting notes is not ideal, but beats picking
> based on bottle size or label color. (although I admit I once picked a
> bottle based on the name of the wine being the same as a town near my
> home - that bottle was disappointing) (more correctly, the wine in the
> bottle was disappointing)
>
> And irrespective of that, sharing "tasting notes" is just another form
> of conversation about something we enjoy (drinking wine, with or without
> food).
>
> So, while you're right to knock the pretension, there's probably a lot
> less of it here than you think.

Perhaps. But I find most of the typical 'tasting notes' language
opaque, and I have a lot of experience with wine (30+ years). I find
little use for terms other than 'elegant' or 'well-structured' or
'raisiny' or 'fruity' or 'watery'. I don't know what 'forward' means,
for instance (though I have seen it for deacdes), or most of the
following typical post:

"...very high toned, tart berry fruit, cedar, VA palate: quite acidic,
medium-full body, tons of cedar, berries, finishes on acidity"

I know what volatile acidity means, but 'cedar'? 'High-toned'? WTF is
that? This where I begin to suspect a high level of BS.

I drink lots of wine, and have been trying lots of bottlings of Nero
d'Avola lately. They all taste quite different. No two seem to be even
remotely similar. Could I describe the differences? No. Could I
identify different bottlings blind? Of course, if kept to 4-5 bottles.

> Jose
> (this post rated 83.2638 points on the Modified Parker Posting Scale
> (TM), three stars on the Unified Usenet index, and B/B+ on the DaleW
> Appropriated Index. Grade disclaimer - A is an excellent post, B is a
> good post, anything rated C or below I wouldn't read even if the only
> other choice were a milk carton.
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> I go by what they write. If they say 'tasting', I always refer to the
> professional tasters' method: sip, swill, spit.

Words have multple meanings. It is likely that another meaning is the
one intended, in many of these cases.

> I find
> little use for terms other than 'elegant' or 'well-structured' or
> 'raisiny' or 'fruity' or 'watery'. I don't know what 'forward' means,
> for instance...

Well, "elegant" doesn't help me decide whether this wine will go well
with beef tips, or with pesto. To me, "forward" means that the flavors
start out strong. "Assertive" to me would mean something similar. I do
agree that there are far more words to pick from than are useful to
ordinary wine drinkers like you and me, and that the differences between
them are less than the differences in the usage of the same word from
average person to average person (or even from day to day). However,
words that describe the nose or the palate sensations of the wine, in an
objective ("tastes like...") rather than subjective ("tastes good")
sense are very useful. Alas, I'm not very good at it, which works to my
detriment when I go to my own collection to pick out a bottle to go with
what I'm eating.

How about "dark"? What is a "dark" wine? I can't tell you, but I can
certainly tell you (on tasting) which wines strike me as "dark" (in
flavor) and I can tell when I want a "dark" wine to go with my food. So
that term is useful to me.

There was a wine I tried (I hesitate to say "tasted") in a Healdsburg
which jumped out at me and screamed "Pizza!". Well, it didn't really
taste like pizza (I =can= tell the difference between the two) but that
was the most accurate term I could find for that wine's flavors. So, in
that sense I can see why people would notice "cedar notes". "Earthy" is
another good term for me; it is similar to "dark" but different in a way
I can't describe. It may not be meaningful to you. But that's ok.
"Elegant" is not meaningful to me, but it says something to you.

And I have no idea what "Volitile acidity" means. I guess it's the "VA"
in "VA palatte".

> I drink lots of wine, and have been trying lots of bottlings of Nero
> d'Avola lately. They all taste quite different. No two seem to be even
> remotely similar. Could I describe the differences? No. Could I
> identify different bottlings blind? Of course, if kept to 4-5 bottles.

Could you remember the differences a year or two from now, when you go
to choose one from your cellar? Identifying bottles blind is a nice
trick, but the payoff is when you open the bottle you chose, and it
turns out to be the match you were looking for. Being able to do that
requires paying some attention to nose and palate while drinking wine.

Many of us call that "tasting", even if it's not in the style of the pros.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
> > I go by what they write. If they say 'tasting', I always refer to the
> > professional tasters' method: sip, swill, spit.
>
> Words have multple meanings. It is likely that another meaning is the
> one intended, in many of these cases.
>
> > I find
> > little use for terms other than 'elegant' or 'well-structured' or
> > 'raisiny' or 'fruity' or 'watery'. I don't know what 'forward' means,
> > for instance...
>
> Well, "elegant" doesn't help me decide whether this wine will go well
> with beef tips, or with pesto. To me, "forward" means that the flavors
> start out strong. "Assertive" to me would mean something similar. I do
> agree that there are far more words to pick from than are useful to
> ordinary wine drinkers like you and me, and that the differences between
> them are less than the differences in the usage of the same word from
> average person to average person (or even from day to day). However,
> words that describe the nose or the palate sensations of the wine, in an
> objective ("tastes like...") rather than subjective ("tastes good")
> sense are very useful. Alas, I'm not very good at it, which works to my
> detriment when I go to my own collection to pick out a bottle to go with
> what I'm eating.
>
> How about "dark"? What is a "dark" wine? I can't tell you, but I can
> certainly tell you (on tasting) which wines strike me as "dark" (in
> flavor) and I can tell when I want a "dark" wine to go with my food. So
> that term is useful to me.
>
> There was a wine I tried (I hesitate to say "tasted") in a Healdsburg
> which jumped out at me and screamed "Pizza!". Well, it didn't really
> taste like pizza (I =can= tell the difference between the two) but that
> was the most accurate term I could find for that wine's flavors. So, in
> that sense I can see why people would notice "cedar notes". "Earthy" is
> another good term for me; it is similar to "dark" but different in a way
> I can't describe.

Almost all Italian wines taste 'earthy' to me. Barbera, Chianti,
Primitivo, Aglianico, Ner d'Avola, Cannonou: they all taste 'earthy' to
me. So, how does that convey anything to me?

>It may not be meaningful to you. But that's ok.
> "Elegant" is not meaningful to me, but it says something to you.

'Elegant' is characteristic of Northern Italian wines such as a fine a
Valtellina or Barberesco, or a 1997 Mastroberardino Taurasi Riserva.
'Elegant' starts at around $40 in my experience, and is rare even at
that price point.

http://www.epicurious.com/drinking/w.../entry?id=6327

http://www.epicurious.com/drinking/w.../entry?id=8160

> And I have no idea what "Volitile acidity" means.

It's a defect in the wine. It makes the wine stink and taste like
vinegar. See:

http://www.epicurious.com/drinking/w.../entry?id=8499

> I guess it's the "VA"
> in "VA palatte".
>
> > I drink lots of wine, and have been trying lots of bottlings of Nero
> > d'Avola lately. They all taste quite different. No two seem to be even
> > remotely similar. Could I describe the differences? No. Could I
> > identify different bottlings blind? Of course, if kept to 4-5 bottles.
>
> Could you remember the differences a year or two from now, when you go
> to choose one from your cellar?

I think so. I can remember what Velletri or Dolcetto di Dogliani tastes
like without having to take notes.

> Identifying bottles blind is a nice
> trick, but the payoff is when you open the bottle you chose, and it
> turns out to be the match you were looking for. Being able to do that
> requires paying some attention to nose and palate while drinking wine.

I would simply remember the name or write it down with the words: "good
concentration; raisiny" or 'elegant' or 'intense'. That's all I need to
know.
>
> Many of us call that "tasting", even if it's not in the style of the pros.

It's not 'tasting' in the true sense of "wine tasting".

http://www.epicurious.com/drinking/w.../entry?id=8558
>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> Almost all Italian wines taste 'earthy' to me.

Not all California wines taste earty to me. I primarily drink
California wines (because I have the opportunity to go wine tast... er..
"selecting" every year when I'm there), so this is a useful
charactaristic for me to note.

> I think so. I can remember what Velletri or Dolcetto di Dogliani tastes
> like without having to take notes.

Then you have a better sensory memory than I.

> I would simply remember the name or write it down with the words: "good
> concentration; raisiny" or 'elegant' or 'intense'. That's all I need to
> know.

That and the sum of your prior experience. I need a bit more to jog my
memory, though I'm getting better.

>>Many of us call that "tasting", even if it's not in the style of the pros.
>
> It's not 'tasting' in the true sense of "wine tasting".

Then it's not what you rant against. You just get your dander up at the
misuse of a technical term when it's not being used as a technical term
at all.

Perhaps you should encourage the use of the term "professional-type wine
tasting" to mean what you mean by "tasting", to avoid confusion.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
> > Almost all Italian wines taste 'earthy' to me.
>
> Not all California wines taste earty to me.

Drink more Italians! Try something like Velletri, Ramitello,
Notarpanaro, Nero d'Avola, etc. Those are all earthy!

> I primarily drink
> California wines (because I have the opportunity to go wine tast... er..
> "selecting" every year when I'm there), so this is a useful
> charactaristic for me to note.
>
> > I think so. I can remember what Velletri or Dolcetto di Dogliani tastes
> > like without having to take notes.
>
> Then you have a better sensory memory than I.

Try them and you'll know how distinctive they are. If you cannot tell
the difference between these two wines, blind, you're dead.

I suggest you try a Chionetti Dolcetto di Dogliani. Owner, Quinto
Chionetti:

http://www.langhe.net/chionetti/

http://www.langhe.net/aziende/scheda...z=0275&vi=0882

http://www.langhe.net/aziende/scheda...z=0275&vi=0883

> > I would simply remember the name or write it down with the words: "good
> > concentration; raisiny" or 'elegant' or 'intense'. That's all I need to
> > know.
>
> That and the sum of your prior experience. I need a bit more to jog my
> memory, though I'm getting better.
>
> >>Many of us call that "tasting", even if it's not in the style of the pros.
> >
> > It's not 'tasting' in the true sense of "wine tasting".
>
> Then it's not what you rant against. You just get your dander up at the
> misuse of a technical term when it's not being used as a technical term
> at all.
>
> Perhaps you should encourage the use of the term "professional-type wine
> tasting" to mean what you mean by "tasting", to avoid confusion.

Perhaps. But wine shops hold 'tastings' all the time. They get a bunch
of bottles, provide some crackers and mild cheeses, and invite people
in for a 'tasting'. To me, this is a complete waste of time if not
actually criminal: you cannot tell a goddamned thing about many wines
apart from drinking them during a full meal. You can tell differences,
sure, but not how the wines do perform in the context for which they
were created: as accompaniment to a meal.

>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"UC" > skrev i melding
oups.com...
>
> I know what volatile acidity means, but 'cedar'? 'High-toned'? WTF is
> that? This where I begin to suspect a high level of BS.
>
cedar=cigar box. A quite common thing in Bordeaux.
Anders

Anders Tørneskog wrote:
> "UC" > skrev i melding
> oups.com...
> >
> > I know what volatile acidity means, but 'cedar'? 'High-toned'? WTF is
> > that? This where I begin to suspect a high level of BS.
> >
> cedar=cigar box. A quite common thing in Bordeaux.
> Anders

I have not experienced that aroma in Italian wine, to my knowledge.

UC wrote:
> Anders Tørneskog wrote:
>> "UC" > skrev i melding
>> oups.com...
>>> I know what volatile acidity means, but 'cedar'? 'High-toned'? WTF is
>>> that? This where I begin to suspect a high level of BS.
>>>
>> cedar=cigar box. A quite common thing in Bordeaux.
>> Anders
>
> I have not experienced that aroma in Italian wine, to my knowledge.
>

I've got cedar notes in some older Chianti riservas and the few
"super-Tuscans" that I've tried. For a reference, have you ever smelled
the wood of a newly-sharpened pencil? That's red cedar you're smelling.
As for your earlier questions, "high toned" refers to the nearly-sharp
smells I was getting, not quite volatile acidity to me, but still
produces that feeling in the corner of the jaw. You can detect all the
BS that you want, but I calls 'em like I smells 'em.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote:
> UC wrote:
> > Anders Tørneskog wrote:
> >> "UC" > skrev i melding
> >> oups.com...
> >>> I know what volatile acidity means, but 'cedar'? 'High-toned'? WTF is
> >>> that? This where I begin to suspect a high level of BS.
> >>>
> >> cedar=cigar box. A quite common thing in Bordeaux.
> >> Anders
> >
> > I have not experienced that aroma in Italian wine, to my knowledge.
> >
>
> I've got cedar notes in some older Chianti riservas and the few
> "super-Tuscans" that I've tried. For a reference, have you ever smelled
> the wood of a newly-sharpened pencil? That's red cedar you're smelling.

I know the smell of red cedar. I don't recall ever smelling it in wine.

> As for your earlier questions, "high toned" refers to the nearly-sharp
> smells I was getting, not quite volatile acidity to me, but still
> produces that feeling in the corner of the jaw. You can detect all the
> BS that you want, but I calls 'em like I smells 'em.

The problem is I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
> Mark Lipton
>
> Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote:
> As for your earlier questions, "high toned" refers to the nearly-sharp
> smells I was getting, not quite volatile acidity to me, but still
> produces that feeling in the corner of the jaw. You can detect all the
> BS that you want, but I calls 'em like I smells 'em.
>
Mark,
Quibble alert! I'd say high-toned indeed refers to VA, just not in the
(subjective, I know) amounts that lead to a negative reaction. Light
amounts of noticable VA provide "lift" to the fruit - I find this in
trational Rioja (Lopez y Heredia being the best example), old style
Barolo/Barbaresco, etc.

As to forward, it's ....well.....the opposite of backward. A wine that
is more ready and accessible than one might expect is forward, a wine
that is less accessible (but showing potential) is backward. The same
can apply to vintages ('96 Piedmont is a bit backward, '97 is quite
forward; '86 Bdx is backward, '99 is forward).

I usually ignore the Scarpetti scat, but find the definition of tasting
as "spitting like the pros" pretty funny. My tasting groups include
quite a few pros- retailers, wholesalers, importers, magazine editors,
and newsletter writers. I've not noticed any of the pros spitting more
than the rest of us, nor any defining our activities (drinking a bunch
of wines with dinner) as not tasting or eschewing the use of the term
tasting notes for their impressions. Most of us spit/dump the wines we
like the least, and consume the ones we like best. Where the line is
drawn depends mostly on whether driving is involved. Big trade
tastings of course are different- usually held in the afternoon, with
hundreds of wines, I typically taste 40 and spit 35.

DaleW wrote:

> Mark,
> Quibble alert! I'd say high-toned indeed refers to VA, just not in the
> (subjective, I know) amounts that lead to a negative reaction. Light
> amounts of noticable VA provide "lift" to the fruit - I find this in
> trational Rioja (Lopez y Heredia being the best example), old style
> Barolo/Barbaresco, etc.

Fair enough, Dale. In the case in point, I'm not convinced that it's
*true* VA (as in acetic or propionic acid) but something remarkably
close (nail polish remover came to mind, but this was more pleasant than
that). I agree 100% regarding your statement re traditional Rioja,
though, and I suspect that Santiago probably finds even that much VA
objectionable (one man's flaw is another's whatever).

>
> As to forward, it's ....well.....the opposite of backward. A wine that
> is more ready and accessible than one might expect is forward, a wine
> that is less accessible (but showing potential) is backward. The same
> can apply to vintages ('96 Piedmont is a bit backward, '97 is quite
> forward; '86 Bdx is backward, '99 is forward).

Was there even a question about this? I must've missed it if so.

>
> I usually ignore the Scarpetti scat, but find the definition of tasting
> as "spitting like the pros" pretty funny.

Me too.

> My tasting groups include
> quite a few pros- retailers, wholesalers, importers, magazine editors,
> and newsletter writers. I've not noticed any of the pros spitting more
> than the rest of us, nor any defining our activities (drinking a bunch
> of wines with dinner) as not tasting or eschewing the use of the term
> tasting notes for their impressions. Most of us spit/dump the wines we
> like the least, and consume the ones we like best. Where the line is
> drawn depends mostly on whether driving is involved. Big trade
> tastings of course are different- usually held in the afternoon, with
> hundreds of wines, I typically taste 40 and spit 35.

You must admit to being a pretty fair taster in your own right, though,
Dale. I do think that there is merit to the notion that newcomers to
fine wine should begin with the basics (what different grapes, regions
and ages taste like; what I like and don't like) before getting too
involved in large-scale tastings. However, one of the most formative
experiences in my early wine education were the tastings hosted by a
local retailer: 6-8 wines served over the course of 1-2 hours with
plenty of food available. However, I see people going to very
large-scale charity tastings who are just rushing from pour to pour and
not taking any time to think about what they've got in the glass -- to
me, that's not the way to learn anything about wine IMO (but maybe
that's not their intent, either!)

Cheers!
Mark Lipton