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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Max Mustermann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Wine/Food pairing...

Hi all,

I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:

1. First, is it a pairing between a food category and a wine variety?
(eg. beef with Merlot, chocolate with Cabernet).

2. Or does it go into further detail based on the type of food? (eg.
with cheese, Cabernet or Beaujolais is always good, but with feta
cheese, Beaujolais is better, whilst with blue cheese, Cabernet is
better).

3. Is it enough to just specify the wine variety or do you also need
to go into further detail specifying which wines go with a particular
food type?

4. When preparing a meal with various ingredients, these different
ingredients pair with different wines. Do you pair the meal with one
of these wines or could it be a completely different wine altogether?

5. When preparing a complete menu (appetizer, main course, dessert),
would you suggest to offer wines according to the course? (eg. with a
shrimp cocktail I'd offer champagne, then maybe a Merlot with beef,
and finally maybe a Port with chocolate)

Hope someone helps!!!

Max
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Uranium Committee
 
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(Max Mustermann) wrote in message . com>...


Wines and foods have evolved together in the various regions of Italy,
for example, so wines of Campania and dishes of Campania are a good
match, and the wines of Piemonte and the dishes of Piemonte go
together, etc.

If you are unfortunately not dealing with Italian regional cooking,
the best rule of thumb is that complex dishes go with simpler wines,
and complex wines go with simpler dishes.

Really, it is very much simpler to go with the Italian regional
approach.

> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
> so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:
>
> 1. First, is it a pairing between a food category and a wine variety?
> (eg. beef with Merlot, chocolate with Cabernet).
>
> 2. Or does it go into further detail based on the type of food? (eg.
> with cheese, Cabernet or Beaujolais is always good, but with feta
> cheese, Beaujolais is better, whilst with blue cheese, Cabernet is
> better).
>
> 3. Is it enough to just specify the wine variety or do you also need
> to go into further detail specifying which wines go with a particular
> food type?
>
> 4. When preparing a meal with various ingredients, these different
> ingredients pair with different wines. Do you pair the meal with one
> of these wines or could it be a completely different wine altogether?
>
> 5. When preparing a complete menu (appetizer, main course, dessert),
> would you suggest to offer wines according to the course? (eg. with a
> shrimp cocktail I'd offer champagne, then maybe a Merlot with beef,
> and finally maybe a Port with chocolate)
>
> Hope someone helps!!!
>
> Max

  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 4 Oct 2004 01:25:55 -0700, (Max Mustermann)
wrote:

>Hi all,


Hi

regional dishes never developed in an effort to match wine.
Traditional regioanl italian dishes developed out of hunger and the
easiest solution to filling your stomach. And wines from over 30 years
ago do not resemble in any way the wines available today. So most
so-called traditional wine pairings are totally accidental. Sometimes
they work, mainly because the matches have become culturally
acceptable and the palates have evolved to like them, but most
regional matches are not easy.


>I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
>so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:
>
>1. First, is it a pairing between a food category and a wine variety?
>(eg. beef with Merlot, chocolate with Cabernet).


Too simple, but it's a start. Think about the aromas of the food and
those of the wine, either create contrast or play on creating harmony.
Strengthen some flavours, or try to tone done those that are too
present. Check the balance of the wine for its compatibility with the
fattiness, sweetness, sourness or bitterness of the food.

>
>2. Or does it go into further detail based on the type of food? (eg.
>with cheese, Cabernet or Beaujolais is always good, but with feta
>cheese, Beaujolais is better, whilst with blue cheese, Cabernet is
>better).


Cheese is about as broad a category as wine. Be aware that 99% of red
wine and cheese matches would be improved by using white wine instead.
Most cheese do not go well with red wine.

>
>3. Is it enough to just specify the wine variety or do you also need
>to go into further detail specifying which wines go with a particular
>food type?


You can work with varietal for a while, but you will quickly get
bored, and then you will discover terroir.

>
>4. When preparing a meal with various ingredients, these different
>ingredients pair with different wines. Do you pair the meal with one
>of these wines or could it be a completely different wine altogether?
>


Usually with the predominant ingredient.

>5. When preparing a complete menu (appetizer, main course, dessert),
>would you suggest to offer wines according to the course? (eg. with a
>shrimp cocktail I'd offer champagne, then maybe a Merlot with beef,
>and finally maybe a Port with chocolate)


Start with lighter wines and work your way to bigger wines. If you
have to go back to a lighter wine, serve a salad or something to
cleanse palate. Put dry wines before sweet ones.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link
http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Hunt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >, steinau2004
@hotmail.com says...
>
>Hi all,
>
>I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
>so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:
>
>1. First, is it a pairing between a food category and a wine variety?
>(eg. beef with Merlot, chocolate with Cabernet).
>
>2. Or does it go into further detail based on the type of food? (eg.
>with cheese, Cabernet or Beaujolais is always good, but with feta
>cheese, Beaujolais is better, whilst with blue cheese, Cabernet is
>better).
>
>3. Is it enough to just specify the wine variety or do you also need
>to go into further detail specifying which wines go with a particular
>food type?
>
>4. When preparing a meal with various ingredients, these different
>ingredients pair with different wines. Do you pair the meal with one
>of these wines or could it be a completely different wine altogether?
>
>5. When preparing a complete menu (appetizer, main course, dessert),
>would you suggest to offer wines according to the course? (eg. with a
>shrimp cocktail I'd offer champagne, then maybe a Merlot with beef,
>and finally maybe a Port with chocolate)
>
>Hope someone helps!!!
>
>Max


Max,

Pairing food and wine is an inexact science, probably closely related to
alchemy. That said, there are three rough thoughts on pairing:

1.) flavor profiles of each, food and wine
2.) affinity flavors in food, which do not exist in wine, but works well
together
3.) texture of food v wine, i.e. mouthfeel. A silky textured dish will often
pair well with a silky wine.

After that, one also has to consider the additional ingredients in the food
dish, and any sauce that might accompany the dish. This is often even more
important that the dish itself.

On to the rest of your questions. I like to pair each dish with a wine.
Sometimes there is overlap, but often there is not. If dining as a couple, my
wife and I will usually look to the half-bottle selection and do the best we
can. There, and the by-the-glass selections are usually the best - for two,
that is. If we are dining with a group, or entertaining, I'll try for the best
match per dish. Now, if everyone is ordering ala'cart, it can get tricky, and
then the half-bottles are back, or I'll do a looser match for the majority and
try and zero in for the odd entree. At home, or with pre-fixe menus, it's a
lot easier. Only drawback is washing all the stemware!

With out going into any specifics, this is my take on a very simplified
version of food and wine pairing.

Hunt

  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Uranium Committee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike Tommasi > wrote in message >. ..
> On 4 Oct 2004 01:25:55 -0700, (Max Mustermann)
> wrote:
>
> >Hi all,

>
> Hi
>
> regional dishes never developed in an effort to match wine.


Precisely. The wines evolved to match the local fare.

> Traditional regioanl italian dishes developed out of hunger and the
> easiest solution to filling your stomach.


You obviously have a very narrow understanding of Italian regional
cooking. Not all Italinas were contadini.

> And wines from over 30 years
> ago do not resemble in any way the wines available today.


Some do, some don't.

> So most
> so-called traditional wine pairings are totally accidental. Sometimes
> they work, mainly because the matches have become culturally
> acceptable and the palates have evolved to like them, but most
> regional matches are not easy.


Not all dishes are regional. Some are found all over the south or the
north. The more localized the dish, the more likely a regional wine
would be best. But always, simple wines with complex dishes, complex
wines with simple dishes.

> >I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
> >so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:
> >
> >1. First, is it a pairing between a food category and a wine variety?
> >(eg. beef with Merlot, chocolate with Cabernet).

>
> Too simple, but it's a start. Think about the aromas of the food and
> those of the wine, either create contrast or play on creating harmony.
> Strengthen some flavours, or try to tone done those that are too
> present. Check the balance of the wine for its compatibility with the
> fattiness, sweetness, sourness or bitterness of the food.
>
> >
> >2. Or does it go into further detail based on the type of food? (eg.
> >with cheese, Cabernet or Beaujolais is always good, but with feta
> >cheese, Beaujolais is better, whilst with blue cheese, Cabernet is
> >better).

>
> Cheese is about as broad a category as wine. Be aware that 99% of red
> wine and cheese matches would be improved by using white wine instead.
> Most cheese do not go well with red wine.
>
> >
> >3. Is it enough to just specify the wine variety or do you also need
> >to go into further detail specifying which wines go with a particular
> >food type?

>
> You can work with varietal for a while, but you will quickly get
> bored, and then you will discover terroir.
>
> >
> >4. When preparing a meal with various ingredients, these different
> >ingredients pair with different wines. Do you pair the meal with one
> >of these wines or could it be a completely different wine altogether?
> >

>
> Usually with the predominant ingredient.
>
> >5. When preparing a complete menu (appetizer, main course, dessert),
> >would you suggest to offer wines according to the course? (eg. with a
> >shrimp cocktail I'd offer champagne, then maybe a Merlot with beef,
> >and finally maybe a Port with chocolate)

>
> Start with lighter wines and work your way to bigger wines. If you
> have to go back to a lighter wine, serve a salad or something to
> cleanse palate. Put dry wines before sweet ones.
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link
http://www.tommasi.org/mymail


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Uranium Committee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike Tommasi > wrote in message >. ..
> On 4 Oct 2004 01:25:55 -0700, (Max Mustermann)
> wrote:
>
> >Hi all,

>
> Hi
>
> regional dishes never developed in an effort to match wine.


Precisely. The wines evolved to match the local fare.

> Traditional regioanl italian dishes developed out of hunger and the
> easiest solution to filling your stomach.


You obviously have a very narrow understanding of Italian regional
cooking. Not all Italinas were contadini.

> And wines from over 30 years
> ago do not resemble in any way the wines available today.


Some do, some don't.

> So most
> so-called traditional wine pairings are totally accidental. Sometimes
> they work, mainly because the matches have become culturally
> acceptable and the palates have evolved to like them, but most
> regional matches are not easy.


Not all dishes are regional. Some are found all over the south or the
north. The more localized the dish, the more likely a regional wine
would be best. But always, simple wines with complex dishes, complex
wines with simple dishes.

> >I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
> >so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:
> >
> >1. First, is it a pairing between a food category and a wine variety?
> >(eg. beef with Merlot, chocolate with Cabernet).

>
> Too simple, but it's a start. Think about the aromas of the food and
> those of the wine, either create contrast or play on creating harmony.
> Strengthen some flavours, or try to tone done those that are too
> present. Check the balance of the wine for its compatibility with the
> fattiness, sweetness, sourness or bitterness of the food.
>
> >
> >2. Or does it go into further detail based on the type of food? (eg.
> >with cheese, Cabernet or Beaujolais is always good, but with feta
> >cheese, Beaujolais is better, whilst with blue cheese, Cabernet is
> >better).

>
> Cheese is about as broad a category as wine. Be aware that 99% of red
> wine and cheese matches would be improved by using white wine instead.
> Most cheese do not go well with red wine.
>
> >
> >3. Is it enough to just specify the wine variety or do you also need
> >to go into further detail specifying which wines go with a particular
> >food type?

>
> You can work with varietal for a while, but you will quickly get
> bored, and then you will discover terroir.
>
> >
> >4. When preparing a meal with various ingredients, these different
> >ingredients pair with different wines. Do you pair the meal with one
> >of these wines or could it be a completely different wine altogether?
> >

>
> Usually with the predominant ingredient.
>
> >5. When preparing a complete menu (appetizer, main course, dessert),
> >would you suggest to offer wines according to the course? (eg. with a
> >shrimp cocktail I'd offer champagne, then maybe a Merlot with beef,
> >and finally maybe a Port with chocolate)

>
> Start with lighter wines and work your way to bigger wines. If you
> have to go back to a lighter wine, serve a salad or something to
> cleanse palate. Put dry wines before sweet ones.
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
> email link
http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vincent
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mike Tommasi" wrote in message

> Cheese is about as broad a category as wine. Be aware that 99% of red
> wine and cheese matches would be improved by using white wine instead.
> Most cheese do not go well with red wine.


What is the cheese that would be in the remaining 1%?
What is the best cheese for red wine?
If too broad, what is the best cheese for Bordeaux?
If still too broad, what is the best cheese for 1995 Ducru Beaucaillou?
(that question is not meant to be silly, though sounds like it. Is it?)

> Start with lighter wines and work your way to bigger wines. If you
> have to go back to a lighter wine, serve a salad or something to
> cleanse palate. Put dry wines before sweet ones.


Since I began enjoying wine with food regularly, it seems that salad
sometimes ruins the enjoyment I get from subsequent courses. Somebody
suggested that it's the vinegar in the dressing, and I have since stopped
having salad (when dining out). Don't most salads have vinegar-based
dressings? Would I be considered "correct" in avoiding them?

> Mike


Thanks in advance

\/


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Max Hauser
 
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"Uranium Committee" in
om...
> Mike Tommasi > wrote in message

>. ..
>
> > Traditional regioanl italian dishes developed out
> > of hunger and the easiest solution to filling your stomach.

>
> You obviously have a very narrow understanding of
> Italian regional cooking. . . .
>
> > And wines from over 30 years
> > ago do not resemble in any way the wines
> > available today.

>
> Some do, some don't.
>
> > So most so-called traditional wine pairings are totally
> > accidental. Sometimes they work, mainly because the
> > matches have become culturally acceptable and the palates
> > have evolved to like them, but most regional matches are
> > not easy.

>
> Not all dishes are regional. . . .



A friend who is a professional restaurant critic observed lately, and I
think penetratingly, that small-time writing about food defines and
expresses itself often via negativity. (We were talking about the syndrome
of certain writers who freelance for local newspapers, and the concrete
damage that they have done in recent years. But the discussion might be
germane here too.) He mentioned writers who had expressed themselves
regularly as too sophisticated for this restaurant, or intolerant of the
imperfections of that one. (He also cited a local food newsgroup where a
similar style can be found today.) I have noticed such trademark
negativity also on some food forums today, including HTML sites.

Right now I cannot offer suggestions about food-wine pairing other than to
endorse the practice. But here are some light quotations, to make amends
(and by way of recommending the full text, in the second case).

-- Max H.


--
"No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney." -- Rube Goldberg, as
quoted by Lee Roth in > (about 15 years ago here on
the Usenet). Goldberg was an engineer (Berkeley, 1904) best known for the
mechanical contrivances in his cartoons.


--
Tatyana Tolstaya's 1993 review of a new English edition of a traditional
Russian national cookbook (Molokhovets) was entertaining throughout for food
fanatics, but especially when it degenerated in the last quarter into tirade
and meditation on vodka. Here's a sample. (I omit her jab at people who
drink Coca-Cola with food.)

"The American manner of drinking Vodka -- on an empty stomach and either
warm, or diluted by being "on the rocks" -- is as destructive for humans as
it is for the product. It's rather like drinking yesterday's Champagne from
a tea cup. The whole point of vodka lies in the fact that a small jigger is
swallowed quickly in one breath (it's poured from a bottle kept in the
freezer), as if one were gulping fire, and that in the same instant one
takes a bit of something very hot or spicy -- mushrooms, pickles, marinated
pepper, salted fish, scalding borshch, hot sausages in tomato sauce -- it
doesn't matter. Virtuosos don't eat, but sniff black bread (only black!) or
the sleeve of an old jacket -- but it's hard to recommend this method in a
country with a well-developed system of dry cleaners; it won't produce the
same effect. . . .

"Vodka and _zakuski_ (appetizers) are theoretically indivisible. The word
_zakuska_ denotes specifically food that is eaten with vodka, in order to
temper its effect on the body. It's ridiculous to drink vodka without
_zakuski._ You'll get drunk immediately, especially if you're hungry, and
you won't be able to appreciate the dinner to come. . . . In combination,
vodka and _zakuski_ stimulate the appetite, cheer the soul, warm you up, and
prepare you for a feast."

[_New York Review of Books_ 21 Oct 1993 pp. 24-26. Not from online.]


  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
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>What is the best cheese for red wine?
>If too broad, what is the best cheese for Bordeaux?


Vincent, I'm not Mike. But my personal favorites with red would be aged Gouda
(I mean 3 to 5 year aged), hard dry cheddar or jack cheeses, and other hard
cheeses like Parmagiano Reggiano. While I think Mike's 99% might be overstating
it, I'd agree if he said 85-90%.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply
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Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
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Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

le/on 05 Oct 2004 05:24:12 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>What is the best cheese for red wine?
>>If too broad, what is the best cheese for Bordeaux?

>
>Vincent, I'm not Mike. But my personal favorites with red would be aged Gouda
>(I mean 3 to 5 year aged), hard dry cheddar or jack cheeses, and other hard
>cheeses like Parmagiano Reggiano. While I think Mike's 99% might be overstating
>it, I'd agree if he said 85-90%.


Amazing!!! Almost, word for word, what I was going to say.

I would add that real gruyère (from Switzerland, naturally, and with as many
or as few holes as the cheese makes naturally) with some decent age is also
pretty good with some reds, although I'd be tempted (not tried yet) to drink
it with a white Jura wine from the savagnin grape.

But Mike as absolutely right to show the red light over the very common
misconception that cheese and wine are "natural" partners. Just as he's
absolutely right to try to correct the (very french) misconception that "un
peu de fromage pour terminer le vin rouge?" (a little cheese to finish off
the red wine?" is a guarantee of a pleasant experience.

There's another hard cheese - industrial admittedly - which in its aged
version goes very well with red Bordeaux. Mimolette. I don't know if you can
get it in the States, but it might be worth trying one day to see if you
agree.

Here in the middle of France, we live in a pretty good cheese area (I'll
find out soon if it's as good as or better than New England) and there's a
local cheese "Cantal", which is excellent, a bit like Cheddar - in fact I've
seen it claimed that it's the originator, having been taken by the Roman
Legions on their way North to occupy "Britannia". Like cheddar, it is
available at different ages, (young, medium, old, crusted) and like cheddar
it is (IMNAAHO) unspeakably soapy young, quite good when medium, nagnificent
when old and mouthstrippingly (literally) pungent when too old. Cantal is
pretty good with reds with some acidity.

And finally, I'm with you (as is Mike I think, in truth) over the
proportion.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

le/on 05 Oct 2004 05:24:12 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>What is the best cheese for red wine?
>>If too broad, what is the best cheese for Bordeaux?

>
>Vincent, I'm not Mike. But my personal favorites with red would be aged Gouda
>(I mean 3 to 5 year aged), hard dry cheddar or jack cheeses, and other hard
>cheeses like Parmagiano Reggiano. While I think Mike's 99% might be overstating
>it, I'd agree if he said 85-90%.


Amazing!!! Almost, word for word, what I was going to say.

I would add that real gruyère (from Switzerland, naturally, and with as many
or as few holes as the cheese makes naturally) with some decent age is also
pretty good with some reds, although I'd be tempted (not tried yet) to drink
it with a white Jura wine from the savagnin grape.

But Mike as absolutely right to show the red light over the very common
misconception that cheese and wine are "natural" partners. Just as he's
absolutely right to try to correct the (very french) misconception that "un
peu de fromage pour terminer le vin rouge?" (a little cheese to finish off
the red wine?" is a guarantee of a pleasant experience.

There's another hard cheese - industrial admittedly - which in its aged
version goes very well with red Bordeaux. Mimolette. I don't know if you can
get it in the States, but it might be worth trying one day to see if you
agree.

Here in the middle of France, we live in a pretty good cheese area (I'll
find out soon if it's as good as or better than New England) and there's a
local cheese "Cantal", which is excellent, a bit like Cheddar - in fact I've
seen it claimed that it's the originator, having been taken by the Roman
Legions on their way North to occupy "Britannia". Like cheddar, it is
available at different ages, (young, medium, old, crusted) and like cheddar
it is (IMNAAHO) unspeakably soapy young, quite good when medium, nagnificent
when old and mouthstrippingly (literally) pungent when too old. Cantal is
pretty good with reds with some acidity.

And finally, I'm with you (as is Mike I think, in truth) over the
proportion.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
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Salut/Hi Vincent,

le/on Tue, 05 Oct 2004 03:54:07 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>"Mike Tommasi" wrote in message
>
>> Cheese is about as broad a category as wine. Be aware that 99% of red
>> wine and cheese matches would be improved by using white wine instead.
>> Most cheese do not go well with red wine.

>
>What is the cheese that would be in the remaining 1%?


I've answered these questions in my comment on Dale's article.

>What is the best cheese for red wine?
>If too broad, what is the best cheese for Bordeaux?
>If still too broad, what is the best cheese for 1995 Ducru Beaucaillou?
>(that question is not meant to be silly, though sounds like it. Is it?)


A little bit!! Though I did once hear "the world's best sommelier 1999", I
think, it was, claim that THE perfect cheese for the Szepsy 1991 6 putts was
a Bleu des Causses made by the cheesery "Beulet". I think that's pretty
pretentious, but then I don't have either his palate nor his breadth of
tasting experience..

I guess that if you were to see "perfect" matches, you would probably
parallel increasing limitation of the wine with increasing precision of
cheese.

Thus.
Red wine <> hard cheese (HUGE but reasonably valid geralisation)
Northern Red Rhone <> Parmesan style
Crozes Hermitage <> 2 year old Parmigiano-Reggiano
Jaboulet Hermitage La Chapelle 1962 <> A specific Stravecchione Parmigiani
Reggiano.

But to be able to make that kind of precision, you would need either to have
specialised for years, or to have stumbled on it by complete luck, I guess.

>> have to go back to a lighter wine, serve a salad or something to
>> cleanse palate. Put dry wines before sweet ones.

>
>Since I began enjoying wine with food regularly, it seems that salad
>sometimes ruins the enjoyment I get from subsequent courses.


Agreed!! Unless you take GREAT care over it. I find (with apologies to my US
based friends here) that the habit of serving a composed salad at the
beginning of a meal, dressed with a sweetish creamyish dressing, so common
in US restaurants, to be as unfriendly to the natural evolution of a meal,
as is the french habit of serving foie gras with a sweet wine right at the
beginning of the meal.

> Somebody suggested that it's the vinegar in the dressing, and I have since stopped
>having salad (when dining out). Don't most salads have vinegar-based
>dressings? Would I be considered "correct" in avoiding them?


Correct shmorrect.

You have what your palate tells you works for you and stuff the idea of
"correctness".

More seriously, and to come to the heart of your question, yes, the vinegar
in most vinaigrette (french dressing) sauces as served with salads acts as
the kiss of death to wine. But mayonnaise is scarcely better - even if I
prefer it! - as it contains egg, which don't match wines well, AND vinegar,
usually. When we make vinaigrette here, for a salad either to accompany or
follow a meat course, which is how we prefer our salads, Jacquie has
developed a recipe which uses little or _no_ ordinary wine vinegar. She uses
quite a lot of proper french mustard (I believe you CAN find stuff that's
edible in the States, though try to avoid the brownish mass produced
products), a little walnut oil (crafstman produced, and VERY strong) quite a
lot more of neutral oil, a slurp or two of moderate quality balsamic
vinegar, (you don't need the $60/100 mls stuff here) and then if the
dressing needs sharpening, a bit of white wine or lemon juice. Salt &
pepper, conclude the vinaigrette, but she'll have rubbed the salad bowl with
a cut clove of garlic first.

But of course that doesn't solve the problem of salads when eating out. If
at a very good restaurant, I think I'd be tempted to engage the waiter in
some dialogue here. What kind of acid ingredients are used in the dressing?
Is there any vinegar? What kind? So go and ask please. In other words, make
it clear that you are aware and concerned about the match with the wine. In
your local Red Lob, avoid salad or ask for it undressed. What _I_ find
difficult is to persuade the waitperson to leave the salad on the table till
after I've eaten my meat, so I can have it when I want it.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Vincent,

le/on Tue, 05 Oct 2004 03:54:07 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>"Mike Tommasi" wrote in message
>
>> Cheese is about as broad a category as wine. Be aware that 99% of red
>> wine and cheese matches would be improved by using white wine instead.
>> Most cheese do not go well with red wine.

>
>What is the cheese that would be in the remaining 1%?


I've answered these questions in my comment on Dale's article.

>What is the best cheese for red wine?
>If too broad, what is the best cheese for Bordeaux?
>If still too broad, what is the best cheese for 1995 Ducru Beaucaillou?
>(that question is not meant to be silly, though sounds like it. Is it?)


A little bit!! Though I did once hear "the world's best sommelier 1999", I
think, it was, claim that THE perfect cheese for the Szepsy 1991 6 putts was
a Bleu des Causses made by the cheesery "Beulet". I think that's pretty
pretentious, but then I don't have either his palate nor his breadth of
tasting experience..

I guess that if you were to see "perfect" matches, you would probably
parallel increasing limitation of the wine with increasing precision of
cheese.

Thus.
Red wine <> hard cheese (HUGE but reasonably valid geralisation)
Northern Red Rhone <> Parmesan style
Crozes Hermitage <> 2 year old Parmigiano-Reggiano
Jaboulet Hermitage La Chapelle 1962 <> A specific Stravecchione Parmigiani
Reggiano.

But to be able to make that kind of precision, you would need either to have
specialised for years, or to have stumbled on it by complete luck, I guess.

>> have to go back to a lighter wine, serve a salad or something to
>> cleanse palate. Put dry wines before sweet ones.

>
>Since I began enjoying wine with food regularly, it seems that salad
>sometimes ruins the enjoyment I get from subsequent courses.


Agreed!! Unless you take GREAT care over it. I find (with apologies to my US
based friends here) that the habit of serving a composed salad at the
beginning of a meal, dressed with a sweetish creamyish dressing, so common
in US restaurants, to be as unfriendly to the natural evolution of a meal,
as is the french habit of serving foie gras with a sweet wine right at the
beginning of the meal.

> Somebody suggested that it's the vinegar in the dressing, and I have since stopped
>having salad (when dining out). Don't most salads have vinegar-based
>dressings? Would I be considered "correct" in avoiding them?


Correct shmorrect.

You have what your palate tells you works for you and stuff the idea of
"correctness".

More seriously, and to come to the heart of your question, yes, the vinegar
in most vinaigrette (french dressing) sauces as served with salads acts as
the kiss of death to wine. But mayonnaise is scarcely better - even if I
prefer it! - as it contains egg, which don't match wines well, AND vinegar,
usually. When we make vinaigrette here, for a salad either to accompany or
follow a meat course, which is how we prefer our salads, Jacquie has
developed a recipe which uses little or _no_ ordinary wine vinegar. She uses
quite a lot of proper french mustard (I believe you CAN find stuff that's
edible in the States, though try to avoid the brownish mass produced
products), a little walnut oil (crafstman produced, and VERY strong) quite a
lot more of neutral oil, a slurp or two of moderate quality balsamic
vinegar, (you don't need the $60/100 mls stuff here) and then if the
dressing needs sharpening, a bit of white wine or lemon juice. Salt &
pepper, conclude the vinaigrette, but she'll have rubbed the salad bowl with
a cut clove of garlic first.

But of course that doesn't solve the problem of salads when eating out. If
at a very good restaurant, I think I'd be tempted to engage the waiter in
some dialogue here. What kind of acid ingredients are used in the dressing?
Is there any vinegar? What kind? So go and ask please. In other words, make
it clear that you are aware and concerned about the match with the wine. In
your local Red Lob, avoid salad or ask for it undressed. What _I_ find
difficult is to persuade the waitperson to leave the salad on the table till
after I've eaten my meat, so I can have it when I want it.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Hunt,

le/on 4 Oct 2004 22:01:18 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>In article >, steinau2004
says...


>>I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
>>so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:


>Pairing food and wine is an inexact science, probably closely related to
>alchemy.


I often say that although I trained as a chemist, I decided to become a
chef, as I prefer alchemy!

> That said, there are three rough thoughts on pairing:
>
>1.) flavor profiles of each, food and wine


And as you say, quite correctly later, not just the main ingredient, but the
others, and the way of preparing the dish.

To take a silly example, "beef". It has to be obvious to anyone that a
wonderful slow smoked texan barbecued brisket is NOT going to match the same
drinks as (an equally wonderful) beef bourguignon.

>2.) affinity flavors in food, which do not exist in wine, but works well
>together


and which again can have a huge effect on the match with wine. I often pan
fry duck magret (that's breast filets of duck fattened for foie gras), and
serve it with a sauce. There's a whole variety of sauces that bring out
different aspects of the flavour profile of the duck. From sharp
blackcurrant sauce, via honey, peach, and other (too IMO) sweet fruity
ingredients to a woodland sauce made by heavy reduction of dried cepes with
stock, port wine and cream. All these food pairings have their effect on
what wine will match best. In fact, my favourite way of serving duck magret
is to bake it in coarse salt. That cocentrates the "ducky" flavours in the
meat, and makes ANY sauce superfluous. And again, the match with wine is
different.

>3.) texture of food v wine, i.e. mouthfeel. A silky textured dish will often
>pair well with a silky wine.


Interesting. I'd not thought of this, and might in fact be inclined to go
for a contrasting marriage.

Although I agree wholly with the main thrust of your answer, I would have
specifically mentioned the "marriage of contrasts". The archetype of this is
(IMO) blue cheese with a sweet wine. The powerful saltiness of one combines
magically with the balance of sweetness/fruit/acidity of a very good sweet
wine.

>On to the rest of your questions. I like to pair each dish with a wine.


Yup. When we do our "normal" 5 course meal, we start with a soup (no wine
goes, normally). We then go on to a starter and usually serve a dry white
with it, though it could be a good characterful pink, or even a light red.
Then for the main course where we may go for a very big white (with lightly
sauced veal/chicken, for example) or a red, but all depends upon what aspect
of the dish one wants to bring out. Then we "finish the red with the cheese"
not really because it goes particularly well, but because people expect to
here, and if you choose the right local cheeses, the marriage isn't awful.
When peple are only paying ‚¬16 a meal, we can't afford to throw in a sweet
wine, but when it's for friends, we'll try to serve a decent sweet wine for
dessert, sometimes serving it half way through the cheese course, to give
the blue cheese something to go with.

>try and zero in for the odd entree. At home, or with pre-fixe menus, it's a
>lot easier. Only drawback is washing all the stemware!


Grin. We're getting increasingly lazy and often simply rinse out the glass
between wines, if the wines don't merit too much special treatment. Nice
though it is to drink Henri Gouges Nuits les St Georges 1990, more often I'm
serving Coteaux de Glanes or a nice red Bergerac from a wine box and they
honestly won't show much better in a better glass. So I use the standard
INAO tasting glasses, which are fine. Spiegelau do a similar one which is
significantly better.

>Without going into any specifics, this is my take on a very simplified
>version of food and wine pairing.


With which I agree fully.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Hunt,

le/on 4 Oct 2004 22:01:18 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>In article >, steinau2004
says...


>>I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
>>so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:


>Pairing food and wine is an inexact science, probably closely related to
>alchemy.


I often say that although I trained as a chemist, I decided to become a
chef, as I prefer alchemy!

> That said, there are three rough thoughts on pairing:
>
>1.) flavor profiles of each, food and wine


And as you say, quite correctly later, not just the main ingredient, but the
others, and the way of preparing the dish.

To take a silly example, "beef". It has to be obvious to anyone that a
wonderful slow smoked texan barbecued brisket is NOT going to match the same
drinks as (an equally wonderful) beef bourguignon.

>2.) affinity flavors in food, which do not exist in wine, but works well
>together


and which again can have a huge effect on the match with wine. I often pan
fry duck magret (that's breast filets of duck fattened for foie gras), and
serve it with a sauce. There's a whole variety of sauces that bring out
different aspects of the flavour profile of the duck. From sharp
blackcurrant sauce, via honey, peach, and other (too IMO) sweet fruity
ingredients to a woodland sauce made by heavy reduction of dried cepes with
stock, port wine and cream. All these food pairings have their effect on
what wine will match best. In fact, my favourite way of serving duck magret
is to bake it in coarse salt. That cocentrates the "ducky" flavours in the
meat, and makes ANY sauce superfluous. And again, the match with wine is
different.

>3.) texture of food v wine, i.e. mouthfeel. A silky textured dish will often
>pair well with a silky wine.


Interesting. I'd not thought of this, and might in fact be inclined to go
for a contrasting marriage.

Although I agree wholly with the main thrust of your answer, I would have
specifically mentioned the "marriage of contrasts". The archetype of this is
(IMO) blue cheese with a sweet wine. The powerful saltiness of one combines
magically with the balance of sweetness/fruit/acidity of a very good sweet
wine.

>On to the rest of your questions. I like to pair each dish with a wine.


Yup. When we do our "normal" 5 course meal, we start with a soup (no wine
goes, normally). We then go on to a starter and usually serve a dry white
with it, though it could be a good characterful pink, or even a light red.
Then for the main course where we may go for a very big white (with lightly
sauced veal/chicken, for example) or a red, but all depends upon what aspect
of the dish one wants to bring out. Then we "finish the red with the cheese"
not really because it goes particularly well, but because people expect to
here, and if you choose the right local cheeses, the marriage isn't awful.
When peple are only paying ‚¬16 a meal, we can't afford to throw in a sweet
wine, but when it's for friends, we'll try to serve a decent sweet wine for
dessert, sometimes serving it half way through the cheese course, to give
the blue cheese something to go with.

>try and zero in for the odd entree. At home, or with pre-fixe menus, it's a
>lot easier. Only drawback is washing all the stemware!


Grin. We're getting increasingly lazy and often simply rinse out the glass
between wines, if the wines don't merit too much special treatment. Nice
though it is to drink Henri Gouges Nuits les St Georges 1990, more often I'm
serving Coteaux de Glanes or a nice red Bergerac from a wine box and they
honestly won't show much better in a better glass. So I use the standard
INAO tasting glasses, which are fine. Spiegelau do a similar one which is
significantly better.

>Without going into any specifics, this is my take on a very simplified
>version of food and wine pairing.


With which I agree fully.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I also like aged Manchego with some reds.

In my investigation of Spanish cheeses, I have found that I do not agree that
Cabrales goes with ANY wine, red or white, despite protestations to the
contrary by various Spaniards.

In fact on reflection, a lot of Cabrales would probably be best buried in the
back yard (along side the Vacherin de Mont d'Or that is past it's 'due date')
to keep the dog from rolling in it.
  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Hunt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >, ianhoare@angelfire.
com says...
>
>Salut/Hi Hunt,
>
> le/on 4 Oct 2004 22:01:18 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>In article >, steinau2004
says...

>
>>>I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
>>>so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:

>
>>Pairing food and wine is an inexact science, probably closely related to
>>alchemy.

>
>I often say that although I trained as a chemist, I decided to become a
>chef, as I prefer alchemy!
>
>> That said, there are three rough thoughts on pairing:
>>
>>1.) flavor profiles of each, food and wine

>
>And as you say, quite correctly later, not just the main ingredient, but the
>others, and the way of preparing the dish.
>
>To take a silly example, "beef". It has to be obvious to anyone that a
>wonderful slow smoked texan barbecued brisket is NOT going to match the same
>drinks as (an equally wonderful) beef bourguignon.
>
>>2.) affinity flavors in food, which do not exist in wine, but works well
>>together

>
>and which again can have a huge effect on the match with wine. I often pan
>fry duck magret (that's breast filets of duck fattened for foie gras), and
>serve it with a sauce. There's a whole variety of sauces that bring out
>different aspects of the flavour profile of the duck. From sharp
>blackcurrant sauce, via honey, peach, and other (too IMO) sweet fruity
>ingredients to a woodland sauce made by heavy reduction of dried cepes with
>stock, port wine and cream. All these food pairings have their effect on
>what wine will match best. In fact, my favourite way of serving duck magret
>is to bake it in coarse salt. That cocentrates the "ducky" flavours in the
>meat, and makes ANY sauce superfluous. And again, the match with wine is
>different.
>
>>3.) texture of food v wine, i.e. mouthfeel. A silky textured dish will often
>>pair well with a silky wine.

>
>Interesting. I'd not thought of this, and might in fact be inclined to go
>for a contrasting marriage.
>
>Although I agree wholly with the main thrust of your answer, I would have
>specifically mentioned the "marriage of contrasts". The archetype of this is
>(IMO) blue cheese with a sweet wine. The powerful saltiness of one combines
>magically with the balance of sweetness/fruit/acidity of a very good sweet
>wine.
>
>>On to the rest of your questions. I like to pair each dish with a wine.

>
>Yup. When we do our "normal" 5 course meal, we start with a soup (no wine
>goes, normally). We then go on to a starter and usually serve a dry white
>with it, though it could be a good characterful pink, or even a light red.
>Then for the main course where we may go for a very big white (with lightly
>sauced veal/chicken, for example) or a red, but all depends upon what aspect
>of the dish one wants to bring out. Then we "finish the red with the cheese"
>not really because it goes particularly well, but because people expect to
>here, and if you choose the right local cheeses, the marriage isn't awful.
>When peple are only paying ‚¬16 a meal, we can't afford to throw in a sweet
>wine, but when it's for friends, we'll try to serve a decent sweet wine for
>dessert, sometimes serving it half way through the cheese course, to give
>the blue cheese something to go with.
>
>>try and zero in for the odd entree. At home, or with pre-fixe menus, it's a
>>lot easier. Only drawback is washing all the stemware!

>
>Grin. We're getting increasingly lazy and often simply rinse out the glass
>between wines, if the wines don't merit too much special treatment. Nice
>though it is to drink Henri Gouges Nuits les St Georges 1990, more often I'm
>serving Coteaux de Glanes or a nice red Bergerac from a wine box and they
>honestly won't show much better in a better glass. So I use the standard
>INAO tasting glasses, which are fine. Spiegelau do a similar one which is
>significantly better.
>
>>Without going into any specifics, this is my take on a very simplified
>>version of food and wine pairing.

>
>With which I agree fully.
>
>--
>All the Best
>Ian Hoare


I will on special ocassions get lazy with the glassware, but my friends (and
my wife) expect me to go "full boat," so my laziness seems to come less often
lately <G>.

As for the contrasts, YES, they can be a big part of the match. As with foie
gras, I'll serve a sweet sticky to counter the saltiness. However, here I'm
also back to the texture, silk on silk.

As for the cheese course, we too usually have an older big red, and I try my
best to match that with the cheese, though, as in another thread, gravitate to
most of my cheeses with whites. As stated there (Tom S ?), the aged cheddars
and dry jack do pair nicely, though I try for ones less sharp so the wine is
showcased, more than the cheese. Not that I mind strong cheeses, I just don't
want a '70s Bordeaux lost amongst sharp cheeses.

I have got to extend one of my London trips and stop in and stay a bit with
you. It sounds like the food, the wine, and the conversation would be worth
sleeping on the floor in the cellar - root, not your WINE cellar, of course.
I'd not like to have account for empty bottles in the AM <G>.

Hunt

  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Hunt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >, steinau2004
@hotmail.com says...
>
>Hi all,
>
>I'm trying to understand better how food and wine is paired together,
>so I've got a few questions which I hope someone might answer:


[SNIP OP, as it appears throughout this thread]

Besides, this is more of a followup to the soup/salad pairings. We do a fresh
greens, pear, walnut and crumbled blue cheese salad, with a pungent, slightly
sweetish blue cheese dressing (I don't have the wife handy, or her recipe for
it - sorry), and this pairs wonderfully with a favorite, though more rare each
day Napa Chardonnay, Sullivan, especially one from the late 90's with some
years in the cellar. Various older Montrachets pair nicely with the pear and
the walnuts.

For soups, we tend toward mushrooms in broth (wife being mildly lactose
intollerant) and these go with an OR PN nicely. However, it often means doing
a red, before a white, but is not death to a dinner. Hearty pumpkin/squash
soups also go with PN's (IMHO) or a smooth Syrah. Now, however, you get a
heartier red, before the whites - a bit more touchy. In Summer we do some
chilled melon soups and bubblies do the best, especially as they are often the
base for these soups.

Just some passing pairings we'd had luck with.
Hunt

  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Lipton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bill Spohn wrote:
> I also like aged Manchego with some reds.


My thoughts perzackly, Bill, though I would extend that thought to the
whole family of aged sheep cheeses produced in Basque country, on both
sides of the Pyrenees, with those marvelously unpronouncable names [Yes,
I *am* aware that Manchego comes from La Mancha and not El País Vasco,
thankya]. Note that I am exempting the young versions of these cheeses,
especially those with green peppercorns in them.

>
> In my investigation of Spanish cheeses, I have found that I do not agree that
> Cabrales goes with ANY wine, red or white, despite protestations to the
> contrary by various Spaniards.
>
> In fact on reflection, a lot of Cabrales would probably be best buried in the
> back yard (along side the Vacherin de Mont d'Or that is past it's 'due date')
> to keep the dog from rolling in it.


LOL! Alas, poor Rover should he unearth the stuff...

Mark Lipton


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Max Mustermann
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks for the tips!!

Question: What is a terroir???

What do you mean with lighter wines & bigger wines??

Thanks,
Max
  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Max Mustermann
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What's a soup/salad pairing?

Max
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Hunt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >, steinau2004
@hotmail.com says...
>
>What's a soup/salad pairing?
>
>Max


Simply just pairing a wine, or beverage, with the soup, and/or salad. If one
has control of the ingredients, it's not that difficult, but if one is at the
mercy of a kitchen, then it can be a disaster, unless you can get either a
good recommendation from the waitstaff, or a lot of information.

Hunt

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