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  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 25-09-2008, 06:52 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default cellaring

On Sep 25, 2:26*am, Michael Pronay wrote:
"Anders Tørneskog" wrote:
(the fabled stash of great wines at Glamis castle, Scotland,
discovered some time in the 60-ies or 70-ies had survived a
century at 41F...)
Sorry Anders, but I simply cannot believe that the overall
annual average temperature of the site of a Scottish castle
would be 41F = less than 3°C. That's more something like the
average temperature of a high alpine chalet or anything near
the polar circle. Simply impossible, imnsho.


M.

41F is 9 degrees Fahrenheit above 32, the freezing point, so is
equal to 5°C...
Now it appears that average yearly temperature in Scotland
ranges from 7 to 9°C. If we say 8°C then that is 46.4°F...
(Somewhere on the net someone wrote that the Glamis Castle
cellar was between 41 and 45...?) Perhaps you might be able to
check with Broadbent or Christies whether they have any notes
about that? Best


Thank you for correcting me. 8°C as yearly average for Glamis (and,
according to the fundamental principles of thermodynamics, also
definitely the average cellar temparature right there) seems to fit
my memory quite good.


I found some information that gives average underground temperatures
in the US and many cities around the world. Note that this information
is in F degrees and not C degrees.

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/For...c/Default.aspx



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Old 25-09-2008, 08:40 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default cellaring


"cwdjrxyz" skrev i melding
...
I found some information that gives average underground temperatures
in the US and many cities around the world. Note that this information
is in F degrees and not C degrees.

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/For...c/Default.aspx

Yes, the table gives 49 for Aberdeen. Glamis castle is quite near but at a
somewhat higher altitude and more inland. 46 could then be right if the
cellars in question are sufficiently deep below the ground level.
Anders


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Old 26-09-2008, 05:19 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default cellaring

"Anders Tørneskog" wrote:

Yes, the table gives 49 for Aberdeen. Glamis castle is
quite near but at a somewhat higher altitude and more inland.
46 could then be right if the cellars in question are
sufficiently deep below the ground level.


Which quite obviously they were/are.

M.
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin[_22_] View Post
On 2008-09-21 10:08:00 -0700, Doug Anderson
said:

Ronin
writes:

I have seen posted here that 56 deg F is the proper cellaring
temperature, and I wonder if anyone can offer a citation for such, or
knows of any study done to show what is the proper temp and humidity
other than "common knowledge." Further, has there been any studies as
to how maturing is effected by a few degrees warmer or cooler? In my
own case, I have an uncontrolled basement room which stays about 55
deg in the winter, and 65 in the summer. And as I am advancing in age
(as which of us isn't?) I am finding myself wondering how I can push
maturity without damaging the poor babies...


Good question, and I'd love to hear what others have to say.

The only controlled experiments I've read about have been done by
this guy (Chris Miley):

Wine Cellar Temperature



Another question brought up by this interesting website - he notes that
the optimum humidity is 70%, but if I raise my orchid room above 60%,
the room turns black with mildew. Now, that is admitedly a much warmer
clime, but I knew a man back East (US) who had a temp/humidity
controlled above ground wine cellar and the room was dripping with
water, and the paper cases were falling apart and some damn fine wine
was in very ugly bottles - all spotted with red and black mold/mildew.
Does anyone else put up with those conditions??
Absent proper room preparation, which includes the critical use of a complete vapor barrier envelope which segregates external and internal environments, the humidity levels RELATIVE to a given temperature are going to result int eh probability of mold and mildew growth.

Absent proper room prep, you're just wasting time monitoring ro trying to control any environment.

Mike Stanton
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:23 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default cellaring

In article ,
Doug Anderson wrote:

Ronin writes:

I have seen posted here that 56 deg F is the proper cellaring
temperature, and I wonder if anyone can offer a citation for such, or
knows of any study done to show what is the proper temp and humidity
other than "common knowledge." Further, has there been any studies as
to how maturing is effected by a few degrees warmer or cooler? In my
own case, I have an uncontrolled basement room which stays about 55
deg in the winter, and 65 in the summer. And as I am advancing in age
(as which of us isn't?) I am finding myself wondering how I can push
maturity without damaging the poor babies...


Good question, and I'd love to hear what others have to say.

The only controlled experiments I've read about have been done by
this guy (Chris Miley):

http://www.winecellarsecrets.com/win...emperature.htm

I don't cellar much wine for more than about 5 years or so. My cellar
has conditions similar to those you describe (55 in winter, warming to
65 in summer).

I haven't noticed any problems, but I haven't done good controlled
experiments.

The conventional wisdom (which you probably already know) seems to be:
aging at 55 is slow, but leads to greater complexity. Higher
temperatures lead to more rapid aging but with less complexity.
Frequent temperature changes are bad.

Miley tested the last thing in the edition of his book that I read.


I run mine at 54? and I think the aging I see is quite complex for the
right wines. Even inexpensive wines are cellared for up to 2 years.


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Old 08-10-2008, 04:25 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default cellaring/humidity

In article , Mark Lipton
wrote:

Ronin wrote:
On 2008-09-21 10:08:00 -0700, Doug Anderson
said:

Ronin writes:

I have seen posted here that 56 deg F is the proper cellaring
temperature, and I wonder if anyone can offer a citation for such, or
knows of any study done to show what is the proper temp and humidity
other than "common knowledge." Further, has there been any studies as
to how maturing is effected by a few degrees warmer or cooler? In my
own case, I have an uncontrolled basement room which stays about 55
deg in the winter, and 65 in the summer. And as I am advancing in age
(as which of us isn't?) I am finding myself wondering how I can push
maturity without damaging the poor babies...


Good question, and I'd love to hear what others have to say.

The only controlled experiments I've read about have been done by
this guy (Chris Miley):

http://www.winecellarsecrets.com/win...emperature.htm



Another question brought up by this interesting website - he notes that
the optimum humidity is 70%, but if I raise my orchid room above 60%,
the room turns black with mildew. Now, that is admitedly a much warmer
clime, but I knew a man back East (US) who had a temp/humidity
controlled above ground wine cellar and the room was dripping with
water, and the paper cases were falling apart and some damn fine wine
was in very ugly bottles - all spotted with red and black mold/mildew.
Does anyone else put up with those conditions??


Something was wrong with that guy's humidity control: 70% relative
humidity means that the air is only carrying 70% of the water it has the
capacity to carry. Dripping water only occurs when the relative
humidity reaches 100% (aka the dew point). What could have occured is
that the air is set to 70% RH at a given temp, but then comes into
contact with objects that are a lot cooler and condense the water out of
the air. My cellar, passively cooled, stays at a fairly constant 65-80%
RH and I have no problems with mold or mildew. I'd be especially
careful about mildew as it can impart a TCA-like odor to things (not to
mention eating the labels).

Mark Lipton


My cabinet keeps the humidity at 65% year round. I have found mold with
75% or higher.


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