OK, using your numbers on Margaux.

Assume the winery sells to wholesalers Chateau Margaux for $90 per bottle.
Pavillon Rouge $30 Bottle and $20 Pavillion Blanc.

That extended to the bottles you claim sold is a total anually of approx $38
Million Dollars in USA assume all the wine was sold at our pricing to
wholesalers.

From that Just the cost of barrels per year if they used all new would be
$1.6 Million Dollars USA. That is 2000 Barrels at $800 for french oak.
Each barrel holds about 25 cases.

Now we have not yet paid for any grapes, boxes, staples labels, growing and
harvest cost, taxes etc.

Cost is not an issue?

The barrels alone are 4.1% of sales.
Bet the labor is not cheap.
Office Staff
Sales Manager
Vineyard management
picking costs
etc...

I bet they don't make as much as you would imagine. Therefore cost is
important.

I knew nothing of the laws of Ohio for wine but that is interesting. I know
in North Carolina while ABC control liquor only the wine still has to get
approved by ABC before being allowed to be sold in state. Crazy crap.





"Bi!!" > wrote in message
ups.com...
This from my Blackberry so the reply will be short since my PC crapped
out today.
Ohio is a State in which the State controls the price of wine and sets
a minimum based on the price at which the winery decides to sell it
for. Obviously there are some aspects of production costs that are
passed along in the price of wine however I would not agree that it is
the major factor in pricing the wine. Take Brunello for example. The
consortium sets the yield limit and only authorizes a pre-determined
amount of labels as Brunello. THe rest of the fruit goes into Rosso at
a much lower price thus protecting the price of Brunello yet production
costs are quite close for the Brunello and the Rosso. $75.00 for
Brunello, $20 for Rosso. Remember that most of these vineyards and
wineries were established a few hundred years ago.

Chateau Margaux makes clsoe to 400,000 bottles of wine per year if you
include the Pavillion Rouge and Blanc at roughly 200,000 and 35,000
respectively. They have made wine there since 1700 in it's present
configuration. Somehow I think their costs are well in line with an
average 5th growth.

Almaden, Franzia, Gallo, Adler Fels, etc all are banking on the ablilty
of the California grape growers to grow and pick more grapes year after
year in spite of conditions and labor. Their biggest fear is
nationalization of illegal immigrants not the cost of a new barrel.
Their costing and pricing structures are entirely different from fine
wine makers.



On Jan 22, 7:05pm, "Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> So, you don't think that production cost has anything to do with the final
> product cost on wine?
>
> All wine? So you think that Aldmen on box wine and Franzia don't compete
> head to head and would drop price if cost allow to increase market share
> and
> gain more shelf space?
>
> Chateaux Margaux---I agree. But I bet it cost more to make that then it
> cost for the average 5th growth. First, the production is smaller and that
> makes a difference when allocating cost.
>
> Size of operation plays a direct role if run effeciently than smaller
> companies.
>
> That said I think small, well run wineries do have advantages in quality.
> But only the best well run. Saywer Cellars, Napa, Reverie, El
> Molino...Larkmead, Tantara, etc. Small produciton houses where often the
> owner is directly involved and perfoms most tasks.
>
> Their costs are often lower, they can pick over day and decide which
> clusters are ripe vs not ripe. etc.
>
> I totally disagree.
>
> Also, since image plays a key role here I must say that lower priced wines
> and wineries that are lower priced cost is a key consideration in
> production
> and retail price targets are generated in that vein to be competitive.
>
> Retailers always want to know, why does your product need to be on my
> shelves. I guess if you can say, I have a great value at 92 points from
> Wine Spectator and $2 less bottle than your other crap with good rating it
> will sell and consumers will come in looking for it...Price played a role.
>
> If price did not play a role why is Aus subsidizing to gain world wide
> market share? Just float at any price?
>
> Gallo of Sonoma for $100 bottle...why not?
>
> "Bi!!" > wrote in
> ooglegroups.com...
> LOL! It's hard for me to ignore him because I've met him....he just
> doesn't know it. He's about 5'3', balding and in his late 50's...like
> a lot of us! I would agree that the qualifier "good" is important and
> that can be somewhat subjective. I taste about 50-75 wines per week
> for evaluation in regards to import and distribution most of which are
> in the under $20.00 category. Generally speaking we find roughly one
> or two per month that would qualify for consideration in our portfolio
> in that price range and perhaps less than 10 red wines per year in the
> under $10.00. I could post a few if anyone is interested. Most are
> French with a smattering of Italian or South American. I agree
> wholeheartedly with your production cost/pricing scenario.
>
> On Jan 22, 3:12pm, "UC" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > On 22 Jan 2007 11:10:43 -0800
> > > "Bi!!" > wrote:
>
> > > > No, I don't agree with you.
>
> > > []
>
> > > Bill, you must have a Sysiphean complex. Really, ignore the
> > > guy. He deserves neither more nor less.I was speaking primarily of
> > > reds,
> > > for which the $10 minimum pretty much
> > obtains.
>
> > Find a GOOD red for under $10? Not very many out there.
>
> > > My point, lost on the All American Buckeye, was about
> > > production cost and relation to eventual pricing, as you no
> > > doubt saw.
>
> > > I hope others in your market see the list, though. Pearls before
> > > swine.
>
> > > To your very good health,
>
> > > -E
>
> > > --
> > > Emery Davis
> > > You can reply to
> > > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted
> > > text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

didn't Fran Kysela work for Metzler.

My Shiverick story--I was looking for a MD home for DeGrazia and was
referred to Atlantic Wine & Sprits. Atlantic's wine manager, Mr. William
was a Philadelphia guy who had a British accent, tastevin and fencing scar.
Atlantic did private labels and "cleared" for Stacole. William bought
Langdon Shiverick to Atlantic and they ordered a container which was to
presell. Most wineshops taught William a joke, going store to store with
his tastevin and arrogant attitude. The owner of Atlantic hated inventory
and wanted the container sold before it landed in late May. So in order to
place an order with Marc, Atlantic's owner asked me to help William, which I
did. William hadn't priced anything yet and the boat was leaving soon.
William looked at currency exchange, got a shipping estimate and set prices
with me. Although I didn't go to Cambridge I thought he left little room
for profit and the Vin D'Pays at $32 a case. So the first thing I did was
up that price to $36, but would honor the $32 price if 50 cases was ordered,
so since I had a regular 9-5 job spent a few Saturdays with the top dozen
stores in the State. It took 2 Saturdays but I sold about 300 cases @$32
and about 25% of the other wines. I kept asking when the shipment was do,
Now William and the manager of Atlantic hated each other. I found out later
she and Atlantic's 82 year old salesmen were taken care of by Stacole who
viewed me & his nibs as in house competition. I asked Ms. B a few times
about where the shipment was and she referred me to William who referred me
back to Ms B. I finally called David to find out the shipment's status. On
around June 15th he told me Hillenbrand would ship and tat Atlantic had
turned down using a reefer because William's pricing didn't take reefers
into consideration. I asked Ms B then if Atlantic had a shipping broker and
she referred me to William. I found out from Stacole who the used and gave
the name to Ms. B who approved because they were cheap and didn't require
payment in advance. So I had to promise to help Stacole with their next
pre-sell. Any way starting mid July I kept asking my two combatants had the
shipment arrived. Final on about August 1 I called the shipping agent aka
custom's broker and was told the shipment was in Norfolk for about a week
and they were waiting on Atlantic to pay something to get it released. So I
called the owner, who was a millionaire and he told Ms B to get the customs
broker paid. Well the 600 cases showed up @ Atlantic not on pallets and
with heat damage to about 25% of the wine. By now stores were getting
anxious and Atlantic was stuck with the $32 price until the end of
September. David Shiverick was summoned and he looked at the damage and cut
25% off his invoice. I then did a damage inspection and pushed the corks
back in an cleaned up the bottles which I wanted to store in the basement
which had a broken dumb waiter & shute and was 20 degrees cooler than the
warehouse floor which approached 85 degrees. The warehouse lady said she
was not going to climb the stairs. No way, so I took off a day and made
room in the basement by hand carrying about 5 pallets of sacramental wine up
the stairs. Luckily there was little damage in the Vin d'Pays so I had them
shipped to stores after Labor day after I vetted each bottle & put the
damaged ones in the basement. I told store there was a problem with the
rest of the shipment and we had the wines in 65 degree storage and would not
deliver until October at the earliest. Now the punch line a few stores
insisted on retasting before shipping and at the exchange rate, even with
Shiverick's 25%credit and removal of really bad bottles or ones with wine
soaked labels, Atlantic was losing $2 a case on the Vin d'Pays. So I held
back selling more until the price could be raised to $36.

That's how I got to be a wholesalers Wine Manager by replacing William who
became enemy for life. Since William would not call on gays and people of
color, I sent the 82 year old who knew bupkis about wine to visit the small
mom & pops who bought the Private label booze, which of course got me so in
dutch with Stacole who wined and dimed me to have Atlantic inventory his
wine and abandon DeGrazia, since my late father dealt with the same hoods
as Stacole said they knew(he checked me out) I got to keep my legs when I
refused since I was "family". It took 3 years of convincing but Stacole &
his silent in house partners finally convinced the owner to ask me to leave.
(Please note my statements on the role of Stacole in doing business with
Atlantic is based on hearsay & speculation except for my direct
conversations. The Stacole man did tell me that he got paid faster if
people thought he had a connection and then he winked.)
One more Shiverick story, when I relocated my portfolio including my own
imports from Italy, I suggested to the owner of the small wholesale house,
he call Shiverick. He did and was invited to Ohio. Now Shiverick was to pay
me as his agent in Maryland but when the owner complained about pricing
Shiverick cut me out according to the owner who laughed all the way to the
bank.
"Bi!!" > wrote in message
oups.com...
He sold it last year to Ardie Bonano and it's now called 55Degrees.
Much the same book with some nice wines including a bunch of 1st
growths. Peter Wygandt is a vendor of mine that you might know. He
finds a great QPR from time to time.

On Jan 22, 6:18pm, "Joe \"Beppe\"Rosenberg" > wrote:
> UC--(or Bi)---does David Shiverick still have a wholesale operation in
Ohio.
> He imported some good QPR wines from Province, Languedoc & other less
known
> areas--He also had Vin Pays d'Oc in four flavors that hit the stores in
> Maryland at $40 a case or $4.99 a bottle, $15 in a bistro. I personally
> sold half a small container at a pre-order wholesale price of $36 a case.
> Fran Kysela, Leo Fox & Bobbie Kacher also search for QPR wines. Maybe a
> trip to Cleveland(Shaker Heights) or Zinzcinnati is in order after all a
> Buckeye's beverage of choice is Milwaukee's Best Lite. The ghost of Woody
> is still crying in his beer........"DaleW" > wrote in
oglegroups.com...
> Nice list, the Brocard is especially nice for the price.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bi!! wrote:
> > I'll say this one more time Mr. UC. You cannot pop your head into
> > Gentile's on occasion and find decent wines for under $10.00 but they
> > do exist. You cannot limit your purchases to only wines from Italy,
> > you must attend tastings...sorry, I forgot, you don't ever taste wine.
> > A few examples of wines that retail for under $10.00 in Ohio:
> > Albert Mann Tokay Pinot Gris
> > Brocard Sauvignon de St Bris
> > Chateau Coup Roses Minervois
> > Mourgues de Gres Rose
> > Montirius Cotes du Rhone
> > Ch.du Pavillion Bordeaux Rouge
> > these come to mind off the top of my head but I could list at least
> > another 50. If you limit yourself to Italy, and only to a few wine
> > stores in Grandview you won't fine too may wines for less than $10.00
> > but they are there.
>
> > On Jan 21, 2:59 pm, "UC" > wrote:
> > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > > On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
> > > > "DaleW" > wrote:
>
> > > > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > > []
> > > > > $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market
can
> > > > > bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
> > > > > concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than
what
>
> > > > I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. The part I
> object to
> > > > is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
> > > > price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine
for
> > > > under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. As you know there's plenty of
> > > > good wine here for under that price.Not today, not in Ohio, not
withthe US distribution system.. Only on
>
>
>
> > > rare occasions can one find a decent bottle for less than about $8-10.
>
> > > > Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
> > > > I've had since 2002 I think. It's amazing to look through an
> appellation,
> > > > you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
> > > > in the export market. They're priced at ?15-20 where the neighbor's
> > > > are at ?5-8. And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more
expensive
> > > > is not always higher. Anyway I've never seen such disparity in
> previous
> > > > editions.
>
> > > > I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
> > > > Aux barricades! Reprivatisez le EDF! Vive la Presidente!
>
> > > > []
>
> > > > > 15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Do you know
> > > > > > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
>
> > > > > Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse,
if
> > > > > that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not
> my
> > > > > style is my guess.
>
> > > > Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.
>
> > > > > I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out
that
> > > > > comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. I'm no fan
of
> > > > > overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of
> how
> > > > > good wine is.
>
> > > > > cheers!
>
> > > > The same,
>
> > > > -E
>
> > > > --
> > > > Emery Davis
> > > > You can reply to
> > > > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show
quotedtext -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text --
Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

Bi!! wrote:
> LOL! It's hard for me to ignore him because I've met him....he just
> doesn't know it. He's about 5'3'

5' 3-3/4"!

>, balding

Yeah? So?

> and in his late 50's...

I'm 57. I used to be 30!

> like
> a lot of us! I would agree that the qualifier "good" is important and
> that can be somewhat subjective. I taste about 50-75 wines per week
> for evaluation in regards to import and distribution most of which are
> in the under $20.00 category. Generally speaking we find roughly one
> or two per month that would qualify for consideration in our portfolio
> in that price range and perhaps less than 10 red wines per year in the
> under $10.00.

Just as I have argued.....

> I could post a few if anyone is interested. Most are
> French with a smattering of Italian or South American. I agree
> wholeheartedly with your production cost/pricing scenario.
>
>
>
> On Jan 22, 3:12?pm, "UC" > wrote:
> > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > On 22 Jan 2007 11:10:43 -0800
> > > "Bi!!" > wrote:
> >
> > > > No, I don't agree with you.
> >
> > > []
> >
> > > Bill, you must have a Sysiphean complex. ?Really, ignore the
> > > guy. ?He deserves neither more nor less.I was speaking primarily of reds, for which the $10 minimum pretty much
> > obtains.
> >
> > Find a GOOD red for under $10? Not very many out there.
> >
> >
> >
> > > My point, lost on the All American Buckeye, was about
> > > production cost and relation to eventual pricing, as you no
> > > doubt saw.
> >
> > > I hope others in your market see the list, though. ?Pearls before
> > > swine.
> >
> > > To your very good health,
> >
> > > -E
> >
> > > --
> > > Emery Davis
> > > You can reply to
> > > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

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