On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:25:02 -0700
miles > wrote:

> >
> > http://www.wineinstitute.org/communi...tics/index.htm
> >
> > You will see that CA produces ~ 90 % of all US wine, and that the
> > 97/00 average was that CA produced more than 37% the quantity
> > of Italy.
>
> What figures are you referring to? On the world production page it
> shows the USA at 21,000 and Italy at 50,000 hectoliters for year 2001.

http://www.wineinstitute.org/communi..._key_facts.htm

"CA produces more than 90% of total US wine production"

http://www.wineinstitute.org/communi...oduction02.htm

97/00 3 year average: Italy 53.3 million hl, US 22 million hl

(.90 * 22) / 53.3 = 37 %

The inverse of this is 2.69 but assuming the trend suggested by

http://www.wineinstitute.org/communi...age1988_02.htm

and knowing that European acreage is decreasing I think it fair to
round down to 2.5, especially for the purposes of discussion, on 6
year old figures.

-E


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

Emery Davis wrote:

> When we think of the often outrageous cost of certain wines, and
> the argument that "you can only make swill for under US$10", it's
> worth pondering with bewilderment how a classified Bordeaux
> at 60‚¬ comes from vineyards yielding better than 50 hl, but a
> fabulous Vacqueyras for 8‚¬ comes from vines with a 20 hl yield!

Are you talking per hectare..?

> Of course, chaptalisation is not permitted in Vacqueyras... those
> bags of beet sugar are probably very expensive.

;-)
And probably it is not even necessary with such a low yield.

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:01:43 +0000
filippo > wrote:

> Emery Davis wrote:
>
> > When we think of the often outrageous cost of certain wines, and
> > the argument that "you can only make swill for under US$10", it's
> > worth pondering with bewilderment how a classified Bordeaux
> > at 60‚¬ comes from vineyards yielding better than 50 hl, but a
> > fabulous Vacqueyras for 8‚¬ comes from vines with a 20 hl yield!
>
> Are you talking per hectare..?
>

Yes indeed.

> > Of course, chaptalisation is not permitted in Vacqueyras... those
> > bags of beet sugar are probably very expensive.
>
> ;-)
> And probably it is not even necessary with such a low yield.

Which is pretty much the point...

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

miles wrote:
> UC wrote:
>
> > Then they might as well not even exist.
>
> Why? Because they don't serve your needs?

1) Because I cannot buy them her

2) Because they're not Italian

> The best wines are often not
> from the bigger producers. California is perfect for the smaller
> winery. They do just fine for themselves. Since I am able to visit
> often they also serve my needs fine. I prefer the smaller wineries and
> their superior wines.
>
> >
> > It's ironic that I can get wines from Sicily or Puglia easier than ones
> > from California.
>
> Only from the larger wineries from those regions and Italy produces far
> more wine than anyone else in the world albeit mostly jug wines.
> California wine production is minuscule compared to other regions of the
> world. But they do produce some excellent wines. You just haven't
> tried them.

Why should I? I'm Italian!!!!!! I'm just stuck here by an accident of
history, because my grandparent emmigrated from Italy. I had no say in
the matter.

John Gunn wrote:
> "UC" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
> > You mistake me. I'm not looking for California wines. (Are you mad?
> > Why would I look for California wines?) I said that it's almost
> > impossible to find GOOD wine below $10 bottle in Ohio. You can find
> > wine under $10, and occasionally good ones (closed-out items, etc.),
> > but not on a regular basis. One dealer had Mastroberardino Radici
> > Fiano d'Avellino for $7/bottle on a close-out a couple years back, old
> > vintage. This is a $22 wine normally, I think.
> >
> >
>
> In other words they have such a hard time selling the stuff that it is
> discounted to nearly nothing. Sounds like a winner to me.

It happens all the time, to many brands of wine. It could be that the
distributor simply bought more than he could sell. An obscure $22 white
Itallian wine is a tough sell, no matter how good it is (and it is VERY
good). I assure you that Radici Fian d'Avellino is worth the $22, but
when a new vintage of any wine comes out, the old one is often dumped,
and this is especially true of whites.

>
> John

Wow, never guessed you were italian.




"UC" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> miles wrote:
>> UC wrote:
>>
>> > Then they might as well not even exist.
>>
>> Why? Because they don't serve your needs?
>
> 1) Because I cannot buy them her
>
> 2) Because they're not Italian
>
>> The best wines are often not
>> from the bigger producers. California is perfect for the smaller
>> winery. They do just fine for themselves. Since I am able to visit
>> often they also serve my needs fine. I prefer the smaller wineries and
>> their superior wines.
>>
>> >
>> > It's ironic that I can get wines from Sicily or Puglia easier than ones
>> > from California.
>>
>> Only from the larger wineries from those regions and Italy produces far
>> more wine than anyone else in the world albeit mostly jug wines.
>> California wine production is minuscule compared to other regions of the
>> world. But they do produce some excellent wines. You just haven't
>> tried them.
>
> Why should I? I'm Italian!!!!!! I'm just stuck here by an accident of
> history, because my grandparent emmigrated from Italy. I had no say in
> the matter.
>

John,
just for sake of accuracy it probably wasn't normal discounting of a
slow seller. Mastrobernardino switched importers a couple years ago,
the old importer flooded the market with entire stock at discount
prices. The unspoken goal of course was to send a message to anyone
else who might think of "jumping ship." Hard for Mastrobernardino to
sell @$20 when people remembered "well I bought last year at $8"- wine
biz can be rough. I picked up a bunch of '95, '96, & '97 "Radichi"
Taurasi at prices that ranged from $15-18, maybe 60% of normal pricing.


John Gunn wrote:
> "UC" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
> > You mistake me. I'm not looking for California wines. (Are you mad?
> > Why would I look for California wines?) I said that it's almost
> > impossible to find GOOD wine below $10 bottle in Ohio. You can find
> > wine under $10, and occasionally good ones (closed-out items, etc.),
> > but not on a regular basis. One dealer had Mastroberardino Radici
> > Fiano d'Avellino for $7/bottle on a close-out a couple years back, old
> > vintage. This is a $22 wine normally, I think.
> >
> >
>
> In other words they have such a hard time selling the stuff that it is
> discounted to nearly nothing. Sounds like a winner to me.
>
> John

I have never had a Vacqueyras before but a few weeks ago bought a few
bottles that was at a place called winelibrary in New Jersey. It was a
internet order as I am in NC.

The item is Domaine La Garrigue 2004 Vacqueyras. Is anyone familiar with
this producer? Is this typical of this region...better/worse than others?
Style etc.

Thanks. Funny I had never heard of it and here it is being discussed
compared to Bordeaux that I do know well.





"filippo" > wrote in message
...
> Emery Davis wrote:
>
>> When we think of the often outrageous cost of certain wines, and
>> the argument that "you can only make swill for under US$10", it's
>> worth pondering with bewilderment how a classified Bordeaux
>> at 60? comes from vineyards yielding better than 50 hl, but a
>> fabulous Vacqueyras for 8? comes from vines with a 20 hl yield!
>
> Are you talking per hectare..?
>
>> Of course, chaptalisation is not permitted in Vacqueyras... those
>> bags of beet sugar are probably very expensive.
>
> ;-)
> And probably it is not even necessary with such a low yield.

"DaleW" > wrote in news:1169225573.939841.176140@
51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com:

> John,
> just for sake of accuracy it probably wasn't normal discounting of a
> slow seller. Mastrobernardino switched importers a couple years ago,
> the old importer flooded the market with entire stock at discount
> prices. The unspoken goal of course was to send a message to anyone
> else who might think of "jumping ship." Hard for Mastrobernardino to
> sell @$20 when people remembered "well I bought last year at $8"- wine
> biz can be rough. I picked up a bunch of '95, '96, & '97 "Radichi"
> Taurasi at prices that ranged from $15-18, maybe 60% of normal pricing.


Thanks, Dale.

As you might imagine, I sometimes just get tired of the noise.

John

DaleW wrote:
> John,
> just for sake of accuracy it probably wasn't normal discounting of a
> slow seller. Mastrobernardino switched importers a couple years ago,
> the old importer flooded the market with entire stock at discount
> prices. The unspoken goal of course was to send a message to anyone
> else who might think of "jumping ship." Hard for Mastrobernardino to
> sell @$20 when people remembered "well I bought last year at $8"- wine
> biz can be rough. I picked up a bunch of '95, '96, & '97 "Radichi"
> Taurasi at prices that ranged from $15-18, maybe 60% of normal pricing.
>
>
I think you're reading too much into it. If a distributor loses a line,
he wants to cash out, as there will be no long-term profit to come.

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:16:18 +0100
Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> Emery Davis wrote:
> > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:01:43 +0000
> > filippo > wrote:
> >
> >> Emery Davis wrote:
> >>
> >>> When we think of the often outrageous cost of certain wines, and
> >>> the argument that "you can only make swill for under US$10", it's
> >>> worth pondering with bewilderment how a classified Bordeaux
> >>> at 60‚¬ comes from vineyards yielding better than 50 hl, but a
> >>> fabulous Vacqueyras for 8‚¬ comes from vines with a 20 hl yield!
> >> Are you talking per hectare..?
> >>
> >
> > Yes indeed.
>
> I get your drift Emery, but very few people produce at such low yields,
> the average in the Vacqueyras area is more like 35-40... but yes, it is
> lower than the average in Bordeaux, they tend to go for quantity ;-)))
>

I wonder if the average yield has come up since the appellation was
granted, in '89 (or was it '88?) I suspect it has. Interesting to ponder
what the average actually is; I've not seen figures, only anecdotal
from the folks I know. That would put it well below 35-40, but it's
probably not a very fair sample space. Do you know if the syndic
releases such figures? I've heard averages quoted in Bordeaux
of 55 hl/ha, but I can't honestly remember the source.

I was above referring to Clos des Cazaux, where yields are always
below 25 and can hover around 20.

>
> >
> >>> Of course, chaptalisation is not permitted in Vacqueyras... those
> >>> bags of beet sugar are probably very expensive.
> >> ;-)
> >> And probably it is not even necessary with such a low yield.
> >
> > Which is pretty much the point...
>
> Correct, and adding sugar from sugar beets is quite common in Bordeaux.
> Although technology now allows enriching with more sophisticated
> methods...
>

Reverse osmosis? Are there other methods as well?

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

UC wrote:

> Why should I? I'm Italian!!!!!! I'm just stuck here by an accident of
> history, because my grandparent emmigrated from Italy. I had no say in
> the matter.

Oh geez!! One of my Grandparents came from Italy too. I drink wines
from all over the world. I don't drink wine based on where my
grandparents came from!! I'm glad I don't share in your bias. It would
rule out too many great wines!

Richard Neidich wrote:
> Wow, never guessed you were italian.

He's not. He just has a grandparent that came from Italy. Just about
everyone in the USA has ancestors from somewhere!!

miles > wrote:

> How are laws in other countries regarding public intoxication or
> especially drunk driving? In the USA DUI laws in most states have
> gotten tougher and tougher every year. That probably limits drinking in
> general while out at a restaurant or bar.

That doesn't affect people much here in the UK: if I want to drink in
a restaurant or a bar I walk there, or perhaps get a cab or a bus.
What you're describing sounds more like a consequence of the urban
sprawl in some parts of North America.

Andrew.

I do not begrudge a supplier(winery) or any enterprise between supplier and
consumer making a fair profit but Ithink high restaurant mark ups especially
when wholesale prices are reduced is counterproductive. Retailers &
restaurants should pass some of the savings on to the customer. High
restaurant markups & artificial minimums make wine an optional experience
for patrons. Lower the prices to double retail or less and you'll have more
interest. I don't order wine as a rule when I'm being gouged.

I recall in my retail days people asking me to pick out a wine for a prime
rib or steak dinner and showing a decent Bordeaux which in the mid 1980 sold
for $20. Most of the time the customer usually a wife would say "I can't
spend that much on a wine" and I'd ask how much the food cost and the cost
of dinner was $50-$100. Then I'd ask if she would buy a lesser cut of meat.
Finally I tell them, if you have food of very good quality shouldn't the
wine be of the same quality---9 times out of 10, the customer would buy a
$15-$25 bottle or send the husband in, so its on him. Almost always, one of
the couple would come back and order the same or something a bit better.

Dodos who stick a tastevin round their neck and correct mistakes in
pronunciations and sneer at a customer lose that customer.(Well yes a chenin
blanc would be adequate and perhaps interesting with your salmon although
you might try something drier and it is chenin blanc not chino blanc.)

The mantra should be there's a wine for every occasion and you only have to
please yourself, not the waiter, salesperson or your Uncle Felix---its the
"try it you'll like it school of selling"

Whenever I called on an account and the buyer asked about the ph or what
theBrix was at harvest, Id say "Enough" and then get out my technical sheet
with all the info the cork-dork could think of.

In Maryland once upon a time you have to buy out an old wholesaler to switch
to a new one--so the wine isn't dumped but they've gone back to the lets
ruin a brand mode which is better than arson anyday.

"Andrew Haley" > wrote in message
...
> miles > wrote:
>
> > How are laws in other countries regarding public intoxication or
> > especially drunk driving? In the USA DUI laws in most states have
> > gotten tougher and tougher every year. That probably limits drinking in
> > general while out at a restaurant or bar.
>
> That doesn't affect people much here in the UK: if I want to drink in
> a restaurant or a bar I walk there, or perhaps get a cab or a bus.
> What you're describing sounds more like a consequence of the urban
> sprawl in some parts of North America.
>
> Andrew.

A few thoughts. I'm not sure that comparing yields really is that
informative

1) Unsure what limits are in Vacqueyras, but in Bdx it's typically
50-55. And average is probably close to that, but a lot of that has to
do with the vast majority of wineries making basic Bordeaux, Bdx Sup,
Entre deux Mers, etc. Most of the classified estates are more in line
with 35-45.
2) I just got an offer for 2005 Bellevue Mondotte that says yield was
15 hl/ha. Does that mean this is best wine in Bordeaux? Based on my
tastes of Pavie (also low yields), I doubt it.
3) Unsure it's especially valuable to compare Merlot and Cab in a cool
climate with Syrah and Grenache in a warmer valley.
4) As with most things in life, our preferences and prejudices come
into this. I enjoy Rhons, but love good Bordeaux. You and Mike have an
obvious preference for the southern wines. So our opinions on what is
good viticulture will be colored by those preferences.
cheers!

Emery Davis wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:16:18 +0100
> Mike Tommasi > wrote:
>
> > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:01:43 +0000
> > > filippo > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Emery Davis wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> When we think of the often outrageous cost of certain wines, and
> > >>> the argument that "you can only make swill for under US$10", it's
> > >>> worth pondering with bewilderment how a classified Bordeaux
> > >>> at 60‚¬ comes from vineyards yielding better than 50 hl, but a
> > >>> fabulous Vacqueyras for 8‚¬ comes from vines with a 20 hl yield!
> > >> Are you talking per hectare..?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Yes indeed.
> >
> > I get your drift Emery, but very few people produce at such low yields,
> > the average in the Vacqueyras area is more like 35-40... but yes, it is
> > lower than the average in Bordeaux, they tend to go for quantity ;-)))
> >
>
> I wonder if the average yield has come up since the appellation was
> granted, in '89 (or was it '88?) I suspect it has. Interesting to ponder
> what the average actually is; I've not seen figures, only anecdotal
> from the folks I know. That would put it well below 35-40, but it's
> probably not a very fair sample space. Do you know if the syndic
> releases such figures? I've heard averages quoted in Bordeaux
> of 55 hl/ha, but I can't honestly remember the source.
>
> I was above referring to Clos des Cazaux, where yields are always
> below 25 and can hover around 20.
>
> >
> > >
> > >>> Of course, chaptalisation is not permitted in Vacqueyras... those
> > >>> bags of beet sugar are probably very expensive.
> > >> ;-)
> > >> And probably it is not even necessary with such a low yield.
> > >
> > > Which is pretty much the point...
> >
> > Correct, and adding sugar from sugar beets is quite common in Bordeaux.
> > Although technology now allows enriching with more sophisticated
> > methods...
> >
>
> Reverse osmosis? Are there other methods as well?
>
> -E
>
> --
> Emery Davis
> You can reply to ecom
> by removing the well known companies

Hi Dale,

We've wandered well off the topic of this thread! I was really starting
out to demonstrate that CA makes a lot of wine even compared to
the biggest producers; but,

On 20 Jan 2007 04:45:42 -0800
"DaleW" > wrote:

> A few thoughts. I'm not sure that comparing yields really is that
> informative
>
> 1) Unsure what limits are in Vacqueyras, but in Bdx it's typically
> 50-55. And average is probably close to that, but a lot of that has to
> do with the vast majority of wineries making basic Bordeaux, Bdx Sup,
> Entre deux Mers, etc. Most of the classified estates are more in line
> with 35-45.
> 2) I just got an offer for 2005 Bellevue Mondotte that says yield was
> 15 hl/ha. Does that mean this is best wine in Bordeaux? Based on my
> tastes of Pavie (also low yields), I doubt it.
> 3) Unsure it's especially valuable to compare Merlot and Cab in a cool
> climate with Syrah and Grenache in a warmer valley.
> 4) As with most things in life, our preferences and prejudices come
> into this. I enjoy Rhons, but love good Bordeaux. You and Mike have an
> obvious preference for the southern wines. So our opinions on what is
> good viticulture will be colored by those preferences.
> cheers!
>

I recall that the limit in Vacqueyras is 40 hl/ha, but that's just a
recollection not gospel. My point above had to do with relative
costs, although I probably do (as do we all) let my preferences
colour my commentary. This said I love a good Bordeaux too.
But I find it hard to imagine how roughly double the juice translates
into many fold the price at times.

It's been 10 years since I've been to Bordeaux, but my recollection
from the last trip was that the classified properties were
yielding around 50. But I will happily "yield" my opinion to
your geekiness (in the best of senses) in this area.

Low yield can mean more concentrated fruit. This is sometimes pretty
apparent in the glass, as I'm sure you'll agree. Of course low
yields can also mean other things: sick vines, hail storms, etc.
Under these circumstances it's hardly a positive.

15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Do you know
the style of Bellevue Mondotte?

-E

> Emery Davis wrote:
> > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:16:18 +0100
> > Mike Tommasi > wrote:
> >
> > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:01:43 +0000
> > > > filippo > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Emery Davis wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> When we think of the often outrageous cost of certain wines, and
> > > >>> the argument that "you can only make swill for under US$10", it's
> > > >>> worth pondering with bewilderment how a classified Bordeaux
> > > >>> at 60‚¬ comes from vineyards yielding better than 50 hl, but a
> > > >>> fabulous Vacqueyras for 8‚¬ comes from vines with a 20 hl yield!
> > > >> Are you talking per hectare..?
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Yes indeed.
> > >
> > > I get your drift Emery, but very few people produce at such low yields,
> > > the average in the Vacqueyras area is more like 35-40... but yes, it is
> > > lower than the average in Bordeaux, they tend to go for quantity ;-)))
> > >
> >
> > I wonder if the average yield has come up since the appellation was
> > granted, in '89 (or was it '88?) I suspect it has. Interesting to ponder
> > what the average actually is; I've not seen figures, only anecdotal
> > from the folks I know. That would put it well below 35-40, but it's
> > probably not a very fair sample space. Do you know if the syndic
> > releases such figures? I've heard averages quoted in Bordeaux
> > of 55 hl/ha, but I can't honestly remember the source.
> >
> > I was above referring to Clos des Cazaux, where yields are always
> > below 25 and can hover around 20.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >>> Of course, chaptalisation is not permitted in Vacqueyras... those
> > > >>> bags of beet sugar are probably very expensive.
> > > >> ;-)
> > > >> And probably it is not even necessary with such a low yield.
> > > >
> > > > Which is pretty much the point...
> > >
> > > Correct, and adding sugar from sugar beets is quite common in Bordeaux.
> > > Although technology now allows enriching with more sophisticated
> > > methods...
> > >
> >
> > Reverse osmosis? Are there other methods as well?
> >
> > -E
> >
> > --
> > Emery Davis
> > You can reply to ecom
> > by removing the well known companies
>


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

DaleW wrote:
> A few thoughts. I'm not sure that comparing yields really is that
> informative
>
> 1) Unsure what limits are in Vacqueyras, but in Bdx it's typically
> 50-55. And average is probably close to that, but a lot of that has to
> do with the vast majority of wineries making basic Bordeaux, Bdx Sup,
> Entre deux Mers, etc. Most of the classified estates are more in line
> with 35-45.
> 2) I just got an offer for 2005 Bellevue Mondotte that says yield was
> 15 hl/ha. Does that mean this is best wine in Bordeaux? Based on my
> tastes of Pavie (also low yields), I doubt it.
> 3) Unsure it's especially valuable to compare Merlot and Cab in a cool
> climate with Syrah and Grenache in a warmer valley.
> 4) As with most things in life, our preferences and prejudices come
> into this. I enjoy Rhons, but love good Bordeaux. You and Mike have an
> obvious preference for the southern wines. So our opinions on what is
> good viticulture will be colored by those preferences.
> cheers!

My humble opinion: yields may be informative, but of course they tell
only part of the story, and this part is a little bit more significant
if we take the yield per vine, rather than per acre/hectare.
Tell me how many bottles of wine come from that rootstock, and you may
have told me something. Not the whole, I agree. First af all, I agree
particularly with your point 3: different grape varieties grown in
different climates make little meaningful any technical comparison on
this issue.
Then, there might be a different meaning of the yield of a particular
wine: it may mean that to produce that particular label that year, the
selection of grapes involved allowed such effective "yield". That would
have been an entirely different way of reducing yields maybe without
affecting the fisiology of the vines at all.
I know of a great old taster, only speaking about the grape-terroir pair
of his direct knowledge, who praises the now almost extint habit of
spraying real home-made Bordeaux mixture (that is containing freshly
slaked limewash) on the vines in their early stage of formation of the
bunches (sorry, I can name it but not in English), which had the side
effect of "burning" the weakest would-be grapes, and concentrating the
energy and flavours in the strongest ones.
Apparently the new more popular "systemic" remedies are less aggressive
to the newborn bunches, so this nearly-natural selection does not take
place (unless at the cost of additional labour to be spent or employed
for the green harvest).
Burgundy mixture, having soda in place of lime, is even stronger. I
wonder if we could speculate any further on this Bordeaux-Burgundy
difference ;-)

Emery Davis wrote:
>. My point above had to do with relative
> costs, although I probably do (as do we all) let my preferences
> colour my commentary. This said I love a good Bordeaux too.
> But I find it hard to imagine how roughly double the juice translates
> into many fold the price at times.
>
I really don't think that any chateau owner argues pricing based on
costs, nor IMHO should they. While I'd guess I'm one of the most
left-leaning people here in an econo-political sense, I'm pretty much a
believer in pure capitalism in the market for luxury products (and once
you get past the most basic table wine, wine is a luxury product). The
market sometimes means old favorites are priced beyond my ability to
pay, but there's always other wine.

As to pricing, does anyone think that it is reduced yields or the price
of new oak that has many CdP high end cuvees well over $100 (or $200 or
$300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what
the market is willing to pay. That in part is what leads to all the
unsold plonk on the bottom level - concentration on the idea I do this,
I do that, I figure my labor at that, and price my wine accordingly
rather than trying to either price to market or make a product that is
more appealing to the market. One's costs don't vary dramatically
vintage to vintage, but as a part of the market I personally am not
willing to pay as much for most 2002 Southern Rhones or sections of
Barolo as I might for the 2001 of the same.

>
15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Do you know
> the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
>
Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not my
style is my guess.

I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. I'm no fan of
overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of how
good wine is.

cheers!

Mike,
I think it's more the WA effect on CdP pricing, he's been their biggest
booster in US.
As to "equivalent quality" , we all of course buy what we think gives
us the most for our money (I'm think we both agree on that, as opposed
to the idea of objective quality, that Parkerista concept). In my case
I tend to spend more in the $20-50 range on Bordeaux than Rhone wines.
That's partly our acknowledged difference in preferences, but also the
fact that I probably pay quite a bit more for Rhone wines than you do,
but not neccessarily for Bordeaux. My observations as to European
prices is that they are far lower for Rhones (and even more so
ex-cellar) . Due to the traditional Bordeaux system, prices seem pretty
equivalent Europe and US. So while I think I paid $30-35 for 2001 Clos
des Papes and Vieux Donjon, and $50 for Beaucastel, they would probably
have been less for you. While my $20 2001 Lagrange and $50 '01 Trotanoy
would probably have been pretty close to what your market might bear.

I will say that I tend to find more Rhone bargains than Bordeaux in the
under $15 market (and lately as many CdPs seem to approching
overripeness I often find CdRs I prefer to CdP)

cheers

On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
"DaleW" > wrote:

>
> Emery Davis wrote:
[]
> $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
> bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
> concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what

I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. The part I object to
is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine for
under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. As you know there's plenty of
good wine here for under that price.

Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
I've had since 2002 I think. It's amazing to look through an appellation,
you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
in the export market. They're priced at ‚¬15-20 where the neighbor's
are at ‚¬5-8. And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more expensive
is not always higher. Anyway I've never seen such disparity in previous
editions.

I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
Aux barricades! Reprivatisez le EDF! Vive la Presidente!


[]
> >
> 15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Do you know
> > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
> >
> Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
> that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not my
> style is my guess.
>

Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.

> I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
> comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. I'm no fan of
> overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of how
> good wine is.
>
> cheers!
>

The same,

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

There very well may be decent wine at lower pricing than I buy but I have
not found it here in my area of USA or in my travels. I would personally
welcome it.

You know there are barriers of entry here in many businesses.

Its my understanding the Mercedes has had the Smart Car out for a few years
now and reasonable pricing in Europe and Canada. That for some legal issues
they could not introduce in USA as comperable pricing.

Sorry. Thats not free market.

As for that, here in my area it is hard to get the same quality of wine at
low pricing that we had in Spain and France.

I am not suggesting that is should not exist, I am suggesting market forces
are not in favor of lower priced quality wine in USA. And for those that
suggest Gallo of Sonoma Cab at $12.99 is a good wine I agree. But the same
quality in places in Spain would be $3.00 bottle.

Off to bed.

"Emery Davis" > wrote in message
...
> On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
> "DaleW" > wrote:
>
>>
>> Emery Davis wrote:
> []
>> $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
>> bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
>> concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what
>
> I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. The part I object
> to
> is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
> price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine for
> under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. As you know there's plenty of
> good wine here for under that price.
>
> Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
> I've had since 2002 I think. It's amazing to look through an appellation,
> you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
> in the export market. They're priced at ?15-20 where the neighbor's
> are at ?5-8. And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more expensive
> is not always higher. Anyway I've never seen such disparity in previous
> editions.
>
> I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
> Aux barricades! Reprivatisez le EDF! Vive la Presidente!
>
>
> []
>> >
>> 15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Do you know
>> > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
>> >
>> Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
>> that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not my
>> style is my guess.
>>
>
> Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.
>
>> I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
>> comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. I'm no fan of
>> overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of how
>> good wine is.
>>
>> cheers!
>>
>
> The same,
>
> -E
>
> --
> Emery Davis
> You can reply to ecom
> by removing the well known companies
>

Mike, my point with the Mercedes Smart is that resistance to bring in USA at
low pricing is against a Free Market.

Wine sold in 3 tier is against free market.

When it comes to premium wines I actually can assume that California is in
line pricing with France.

But our wine consumption is lower because there are not decent quality every
day wines here in the cheap range unless you go jug wine quality. I think
in France and definitly in Spain....they have excellent low priced wine for
the masses.

Thats why, in addition to cultural, consumption per capita is much higher.

Just like the menu deldia in spain, 3 course lunch, bottle of water or wine
for $8.00 Per person, by law.
"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> Richard Neidich wrote:
>> There very well may be decent wine at lower pricing than I buy but I have
>> not found it here in my area of USA or in my travels. I would personally
>> welcome it.
>>
>> You know there are barriers of entry here in many businesses.
>
> Yes but I find that I can buy some of my favourite premium french wines in
> the US cheaper than in France... I've even seen wines in restaurants at
> the same price as in wine stores in France.
>
>> Its my understanding the Mercedes has had the Smart Car out for a few
>> years now and reasonable pricing in Europe and Canada. That for some
>> legal issues they could not introduce in USA as comperable pricing.
>
> I drive a (small) Mercedes and when it is being services I get a Smart on
> loan. It is one of the worse cars I've ever driven, noisy engine, rattles
> all the time, the automatic transmission is terrible. It is also way way
> ovepriced, costs more than a Fiat Punto. I don't get it. What did Smart
> invent? Small cars? The Fiat 500 has been around for years... ;-)
>
>> Sorry. Thats not free market.
>>
>> As for that, here in my area it is hard to get the same quality of wine
>> at low pricing that we had in Spain and France.
>
> Earlier I was talking about premium wines. True, low priced wines are not
> as cheap in the US (I guess it does cost money to transport them and get
> them through 3 layers of distribution). Here in France I can drink wery
> well under $10.
>
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

The cost to transport from Eu to USA is about 1/2 of the return trip.

If using 20 foot or 40 foot refer containers you are really only looking at
$2.00 a bottle cost.

Why can't we produce wine at same prices however as say France, italy or
spain on the lower price wine?

I think some of the answers lie with fact there really is ont much
competition in reality. The are what 10000 or 20000 non corporate wineries
in Italy...maybe more? Same in France?

I hate to say this but that is more Free Market than here. That has lots to
do with the reason every day wine is that cheap. If we have 2000 producers
in all of California or for that matter USA I really would be surprised.


"Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
...
> Richard Neidich wrote:
>> There very well may be decent wine at lower pricing than I buy but I have
>> not found it here in my area of USA or in my travels. I would personally
>> welcome it.
>>
>> You know there are barriers of entry here in many businesses.
>
> Yes but I find that I can buy some of my favourite premium french wines in
> the US cheaper than in France... I've even seen wines in restaurants at
> the same price as in wine stores in France.
>
>> Its my understanding the Mercedes has had the Smart Car out for a few
>> years now and reasonable pricing in Europe and Canada. That for some
>> legal issues they could not introduce in USA as comperable pricing.
>
> I drive a (small) Mercedes and when it is being services I get a Smart on
> loan. It is one of the worse cars I've ever driven, noisy engine, rattles
> all the time, the automatic transmission is terrible. It is also way way
> ovepriced, costs more than a Fiat Punto. I don't get it. What did Smart
> invent? Small cars? The Fiat 500 has been around for years... ;-)
>
>> Sorry. Thats not free market.
>>
>> As for that, here in my area it is hard to get the same quality of wine
>> at low pricing that we had in Spain and France.
>
> Earlier I was talking about premium wines. True, low priced wines are not
> as cheap in the US (I guess it does cost money to transport them and get
> them through 3 layers of distribution). Here in France I can drink wery
> well under $10.
>
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

One additional point: 3 tier is fine and offers benfits to wineries,
especially smaller ones.

That said government required 3 tier is what sets up monopolies. That is
what defeats true free markets and why wine prices remain high as well.


"Richard Neidich" > wrote in message
link.net...
> The cost to transport from Eu to USA is about 1/2 of the return trip.
>
> If using 20 foot or 40 foot refer containers you are really only looking
> at $2.00 a bottle cost.
>
> Why can't we produce wine at same prices however as say France, italy or
> spain on the lower price wine?
>
> I think some of the answers lie with fact there really is ont much
> competition in reality. The are what 10000 or 20000 non corporate
> wineries in Italy...maybe more? Same in France?
>
> I hate to say this but that is more Free Market than here. That has lots
> to do with the reason every day wine is that cheap. If we have 2000
> producers in all of California or for that matter USA I really would be
> surprised.
>
>
> "Mike Tommasi" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Richard Neidich wrote:
>>> There very well may be decent wine at lower pricing than I buy but I
>>> have not found it here in my area of USA or in my travels. I would
>>> personally welcome it.
>>>
>>> You know there are barriers of entry here in many businesses.
>>
>> Yes but I find that I can buy some of my favourite premium french wines
>> in the US cheaper than in France... I've even seen wines in restaurants
>> at the same price as in wine stores in France.
>>
>>> Its my understanding the Mercedes has had the Smart Car out for a few
>>> years now and reasonable pricing in Europe and Canada. That for some
>>> legal issues they could not introduce in USA as comperable pricing.
>>
>> I drive a (small) Mercedes and when it is being services I get a Smart on
>> loan. It is one of the worse cars I've ever driven, noisy engine, rattles
>> all the time, the automatic transmission is terrible. It is also way way
>> ovepriced, costs more than a Fiat Punto. I don't get it. What did Smart
>> invent? Small cars? The Fiat 500 has been around for years... ;-)
>>
>>> Sorry. Thats not free market.
>>>
>>> As for that, here in my area it is hard to get the same quality of wine
>>> at low pricing that we had in Spain and France.
>>
>> Earlier I was talking about premium wines. True, low priced wines are
>> not as cheap in the US (I guess it does cost money to transport them and
>> get them through 3 layers of distribution). Here in France I can drink
>> wery well under $10.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
>> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
>
>

Emery Davis wrote:
> On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
> "DaleW" > wrote:
>
> >
> > Emery Davis wrote:
> []
> > $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
> > bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
> > concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what
>
> I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. The part I object to
> is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
> price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine for
> under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. As you know there's plenty of
> good wine here for under that price.

Not today, not in Ohio, not with the US distribution system.. Only on
rare occasions can one find a decent bottle for less than about $8-10.
>
> Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
> I've had since 2002 I think. It's amazing to look through an appellation,
> you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
> in the export market. They're priced at ‚¬15-20 where the neighbor's
> are at ‚¬5-8. And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more expensive
> is not always higher. Anyway I've never seen such disparity in previous
> editions.
>
> I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
> Aux barricades! Reprivatisez le EDF! Vive la Presidente!
>
>
> []
> > >
> > 15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Do you know
> > > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
> > >
> > Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
> > that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not my
> > style is my guess.
> >
>
> Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.
>
> > I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
> > comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. I'm no fan of
> > overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of how
> > good wine is.
> >
> > cheers!
> >
>
> The same,
>
> -E
>
> --
> Emery Davis
> You can reply to ecom
> by removing the well known companies

I'll say this one more time Mr. UC. You cannot pop your head into
Gentile's on occasion and find decent wines for under $10.00 but they
do exist. You cannot limit your purchases to only wines from Italy,
you must attend tastings...sorry, I forgot, you don't ever taste wine.
A few examples of wines that retail for under $10.00 in Ohio:
Albert Mann Tokay Pinot Gris
Brocard Sauvignon de St Bris
Chateau Coup Roses Minervois
Mourgues de Gres Rose
Montirius Cotes du Rhone
Ch.du Pavillion Bordeaux Rouge
these come to mind off the top of my head but I could list at least
another 50. If you limit yourself to Italy, and only to a few wine
stores in Grandview you won't fine too may wines for less than $10.00
but they are there.

On Jan 21, 2:59Â*pm, "UC" > wrote:
> Emery Davis wrote:
> > On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
> > "DaleW" > wrote:
>
> > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > []
> > > $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
> > > bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
> > > concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what
>
> > I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. Â*The part I object to
> > is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
> > price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine for
> > under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. Â*As you know there's plenty of
> > good wine here for under that price.Not today, not in Ohio, not with the US distribution system.. Only on
> rare occasions can one find a decent bottle for less than about $8-10.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
> > I've had since 2002 I think. Â*It's amazing to look through an appellation,
> > you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
> > in the export market. Â*They're priced at ‚¬15-20 where the neighbor's
> > are at ‚¬5-8. Â*And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more expensive
> > is not always higher. Â*Anyway I've never seen such disparity in previous
> > editions.
>
> > I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
> > Aux barricades! Â*Reprivatisez le EDF! Â*Vive la Presidente!
>
> > []
>
> > > Â*15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Â*Do you know
> > > > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
>
> > > Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
> > > that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not my
> > > style is my guess.
>
> > Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.
>
> > > I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
> > > comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. Â*I'm no fan of
> > > overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of how
> > > good wine is.
>
> > > cheers!
>
> > The same,
>
> > -E
>
> > --
> > Emery Davis
> > You can reply to
> > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

Bi!! wrote:
> I'll say this one more time Mr. UC. You cannot pop your head into
> Gentile's on occasion and find decent wines for under $10.00 but they
> do exist.

So what? If I cannot BUY them, what difference does it make? Sure,
there are $20 US double eagle gold coins dated 1933....but try to buy
them!

> You cannot limit your purchases to only wines from Italy,

Nonsense: I can and do.

> you must attend tastings

I don't attend tastings...ever...I'm philosophically opposed to them.
They're stupid and pointless, and only for the naïve.

>...sorry, I forgot, you don't ever taste wine.
> A few examples of wines that retail for under $10.00 in Ohio:
> Albert Mann Tokay Pinot Gris
> Brocard Sauvignon de St Bris
> Chateau Coup Roses Minervois
> Mourgues de Gres Rose
> Montirius Cotes du Rhone
> Ch.du Pavillion Bordeaux Rouge
> these come to mind off the top of my head but I could list at least
> another 50. If you limit yourself to Italy, and only to a few wine
> stores in Grandview you won't fine too may wines for less than $10.00
> but they are there.

Then you agree with me....How charming!
>
> On Jan 21, 2:59 pm, "UC" > wrote:
> > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
> > > "DaleW" > wrote:
> >
> > > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > []
> > > > $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
> > > > bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
> > > > concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what
> >
> > > I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. The part I object to
> > > is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
> > > price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine for
> > > under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. As you know there's plenty of
> > > good wine here for under that price.Not today, not in Ohio, not with the US distribution system.. Only on
> > rare occasions can one find a decent bottle for less than about $8-10.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
> > > I've had since 2002 I think. It's amazing to look through an appellation,
> > > you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
> > > in the export market. They're priced at ‚¬15-20 where the neighbor's
> > > are at ‚¬5-8. And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more expensive
> > > is not always higher. Anyway I've never seen such disparity in previous
> > > editions.
> >
> > > I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
> > > Aux barricades! Reprivatisez le EDF! Vive la Presidente!
> >
> > > []
> >
> > > > 15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Do you know
> > > > > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
> >
> > > > Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
> > > > that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not my
> > > > style is my guess.
> >
> > > Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.
> >
> > > > I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
> > > > comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. I'm no fan of
> > > > overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of how
> > > > good wine is.
> >
> > > > cheers!
> >
> > > The same,
> >
> > > -E
> >
> > > --
> > > Emery Davis
> > > You can reply to
> > > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

No, I don't agree with you.

On Jan 22, 1:31Â*pm, "UC" > wrote:
> Bi!! wrote:
> > I'll say this one more time Mr. UC. Â*You cannot pop your head into
> > Gentile's on occasion and find decent wines for under $10.00 but they
> > do exist.So what? If I cannot BUY them, what difference does it make? Sure,
> there are $20 US double eagle gold coins dated 1933....but try to buy
> them!
>
> > You cannot limit your purchases to only wines from Italy,Nonsense: I can and do.
>
> > you must attend tastingsI don't attend tastings...ever...I'm philosophically opposed to them.
> They're stupid and pointless, and only for the naïve.
>
> >...sorry, I forgot, you don't ever taste wine.
> > A few examples of wines that retail for under $10.00 in Ohio:
> > Albert Mann Tokay Pinot Gris
> > Brocard Sauvignon de St Bris
> > Chateau Coup Roses Minervois
> > Mourgues de Gres Rose
> > Montirius Cotes du Rhone
> > Ch.du Pavillion Bordeaux Rouge
> > these come to mind off the top of my head but I could list at least
> > another 50. Â*If you limit yourself to Italy, and only to a few wine
> > stores in Grandview you won't fine too may wines for less than $10.00
> > but they are there.Then you agree with me....How charming!
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 21, 2:59 pm, "UC" > wrote:
> > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > > On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
> > > > "DaleW" > wrote:
>
> > > > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > > []
> > > > > $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
> > > > > bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
> > > > > concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what
>
> > > > I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. Â*The part I object to
> > > > is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
> > > > price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine for
> > > > under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. Â*As you know there's plenty of
> > > > good wine here for under that price.Not today, not in Ohio, not with the US distribution system.. Only on
> > > rare occasions can one find a decent bottle for less than about $8-10.
>
> > > > Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
> > > > I've had since 2002 I think. Â*It's amazing to look through an appellation,
> > > > you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
> > > > in the export market. Â*They're priced at ‚¬15-20 where the neighbor's
> > > > are at ‚¬5-8. Â*And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more expensive
> > > > is not always higher. Â*Anyway I've never seen such disparity in previous
> > > > editions.
>
> > > > I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
> > > > Aux barricades! Â*Reprivatisez le EDF! Â*Vive la Presidente!
>
> > > > []
>
> > > > > Â*15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Â*Do you know
> > > > > > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
>
> > > > > Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
> > > > > that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not my
> > > > > style is my guess.
>
> > > > Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.
>
> > > > > I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
> > > > > comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. Â*I'm no fan of
> > > > > overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of how
> > > > > good wine is.
>
> > > > > cheers!
>
> > > > The same,
>
> > > > -E
>
> > > > --
> > > > Emery Davis
> > > > You can reply to
> > > > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

Nice list, the Brocard is especially nice for the price.

Bi!! wrote:
> I'll say this one more time Mr. UC. You cannot pop your head into
> Gentile's on occasion and find decent wines for under $10.00 but they
> do exist. You cannot limit your purchases to only wines from Italy,
> you must attend tastings...sorry, I forgot, you don't ever taste wine.
> A few examples of wines that retail for under $10.00 in Ohio:
> Albert Mann Tokay Pinot Gris
> Brocard Sauvignon de St Bris
> Chateau Coup Roses Minervois
> Mourgues de Gres Rose
> Montirius Cotes du Rhone
> Ch.du Pavillion Bordeaux Rouge
> these come to mind off the top of my head but I could list at least
> another 50. If you limit yourself to Italy, and only to a few wine
> stores in Grandview you won't fine too may wines for less than $10.00
> but they are there.
>
> On Jan 21, 2:59Â*pm, "UC" > wrote:
> > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
> > > "DaleW" > wrote:
> >
> > > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > []
> > > > $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
> > > > bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
> > > > concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what
> >
> > > I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. Â*The part I object to
> > > is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
> > > price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine for
> > > under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. Â*As you know there's plenty of
> > > good wine here for under that price.Not today, not in Ohio, not with the US distribution system.. Only on
> > rare occasions can one find a decent bottle for less than about $8-10.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
> > > I've had since 2002 I think. Â*It's amazing to look through an appellation,
> > > you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
> > > in the export market. Â*They're priced at ‚¬15-20 where the neighbor's
> > > are at ‚¬5-8. Â*And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more expensive
> > > is not always higher. Â*Anyway I've never seen such disparity in previous
> > > editions.
> >
> > > I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
> > > Aux barricades! Â*Reprivatisez le EDF! Â*Vive la Presidente!
> >
> > > []
> >
> > > > Â*15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Â*Do you know
> > > > > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
> >
> > > > Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
> > > > that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not my
> > > > style is my guess.
> >
> > > Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.
> >
> > > > I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
> > > > comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. Â*I'm no fan of
> > > > overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of how
> > > > good wine is.
> >
> > > > cheers!
> >
> > > The same,
> >
> > > -E
> >
> > > --
> > > Emery Davis
> > > You can reply to
> > > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

On 22 Jan 2007 11:10:43 -0800
"Bi!!" > wrote:

> No, I don't agree with you.
>
[]

Bill, you must have a Sysiphean complex. Really, ignore the
guy. He deserves neither more nor less.

My point, lost on the All American Buckeye, was about
production cost and relation to eventual pricing, as you no
doubt saw.

I hope others in your market see the list, though. Pearls before
swine.

To your very good health,

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

Emery Davis wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2007 11:10:43 -0800
> "Bi!!" > wrote:
>
> > No, I don't agree with you.
> >
> []
>
> Bill, you must have a Sysiphean complex. Really, ignore the
> guy. He deserves neither more nor less.

I was speaking primarily of reds, for which the $10 minimum pretty much
obtains.

Find a GOOD red for under $10? Not very many out there.

> My point, lost on the All American Buckeye, was about
> production cost and relation to eventual pricing, as you no
> doubt saw.
>
> I hope others in your market see the list, though. Pearls before
> swine.
>
> To your very good health,
>
> -E
>
> --
> Emery Davis
> You can reply to ecom
> by removing the well known companies

Emory, I probably agree there are plenty of decent under $10 bottles out
there...just not in most of the USA that I have been. Also, since I have
never had any of the ones on Bills list and had not heard of most I would
not have looked for either. But I will now!!! :-)

I think most of us drink whats in our comfort zone. Had it somewhere, read
about it, recomendations, visited winery, tasting dinner etc. Some
connection.

I went to a tasting in 1999 in prep for a 1999-year 2000 change we were
doing at our house. We had a piano player, catering (wife did heavy stuff)
caterer did all the passarounds. We tasted over 50 Sparklers that night.
Italian, Spanish Cava, French sparkling but not Champaigne district.

I want a sparker for under $10. We found one. It was our favorite and we
bought probably 20 case. It was called Xenius and was a NV Spanish Cava.
By the case and the mulitple case it was only about $6.00 a bottle. Drank
like a $50 bottle of Champaigne. GREAT STUFF.

Saw a tasting for parties on tv for same year and they blind tasted on the
Today Show Katie Couric chose mine blind as the best. We already had our
cases.

Before this I never really drank sparkling.

6 months later it was gone from every shop Never seen anywhere again.
Could not find on internet. Called, distributor said importer no longer
had.

End of story.. Found a good one...1x






"Emery Davis" > wrote in message
...
> On 22 Jan 2007 11:10:43 -0800
> "Bi!!" > wrote:
>
>> No, I don't agree with you.
>>
> []
>
> Bill, you must have a Sysiphean complex. Really, ignore the
> guy. He deserves neither more nor less.
>
> My point, lost on the All American Buckeye, was about
> production cost and relation to eventual pricing, as you no
> doubt saw.
>
> I hope others in your market see the list, though. Pearls before
> swine.
>
> To your very good health,
>
> -E
>
> --
> Emery Davis
> You can reply to ecom
> by removing the well known companies
>

Richard Neidich wrote:
> Emory, I probably agree there are plenty of decent under $10 bottles out
> there...just not in most of the USA that I have been.

This was what I was saying. They may exist, but distribution is a
problem, but distribution & marketing costs raise the price....so then
it's no longer sucha bargain!

UC--(or Bi)---does David Shiverick still have a wholesale operation in Ohio.
He imported some good QPR wines from Province, Languedoc & other less known
areas--He also had Vin Pays d'Oc in four flavors that hit the stores in
Maryland at $40 a case or $4.99 a bottle, $15 in a bistro. I personally
sold half a small container at a pre-order wholesale price of $36 a case.
Fran Kysela, Leo Fox & Bobbie Kacher also search for QPR wines. Maybe a
trip to Cleveland(Shaker Heights) or Zinzcinnati is in order after all a
Buckeye's beverage of choice is Milwaukee's Best Lite. The ghost of Woody
is still crying in his beer........
"DaleW" > wrote in message
ups.com...
Nice list, the Brocard is especially nice for the price.

Bi!! wrote:
> I'll say this one more time Mr. UC. You cannot pop your head into
> Gentile's on occasion and find decent wines for under $10.00 but they
> do exist. You cannot limit your purchases to only wines from Italy,
> you must attend tastings...sorry, I forgot, you don't ever taste wine.
> A few examples of wines that retail for under $10.00 in Ohio:
> Albert Mann Tokay Pinot Gris
> Brocard Sauvignon de St Bris
> Chateau Coup Roses Minervois
> Mourgues de Gres Rose
> Montirius Cotes du Rhone
> Ch.du Pavillion Bordeaux Rouge
> these come to mind off the top of my head but I could list at least
> another 50. If you limit yourself to Italy, and only to a few wine
> stores in Grandview you won't fine too may wines for less than $10.00
> but they are there.
>
> On Jan 21, 2:59 pm, "UC" > wrote:
> > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
> > > "DaleW" > wrote:
> >
> > > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > []
> > > > $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
> > > > bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
> > > > concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what
> >
> > > I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. The part I
object to
> > > is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
> > > price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine for
> > > under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. As you know there's plenty of
> > > good wine here for under that price.Not today, not in Ohio, not with
the US distribution system.. Only on
> > rare occasions can one find a decent bottle for less than about $8-10.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
> > > I've had since 2002 I think. It's amazing to look through an
appellation,
> > > you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
> > > in the export market. They're priced at ?15-20 where the neighbor's
> > > are at ?5-8. And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more expensive
> > > is not always higher. Anyway I've never seen such disparity in
previous
> > > editions.
> >
> > > I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
> > > Aux barricades! Reprivatisez le EDF! Vive la Presidente!
> >
> > > []
> >
> > > > 15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Do you know
> > > > > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
> >
> > > > Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
> > > > that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not
my
> > > > style is my guess.
> >
> > > Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.
> >
> > > > I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
> > > > comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. I'm no fan of
> > > > overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of
how
> > > > good wine is.
> >
> > > > cheers!
> >
> > > The same,
> >
> > > -E
> >
> > > --
> > > Emery Davis
> > > You can reply to
> > > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted
text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

LOL! It's hard for me to ignore him because I've met him....he just
doesn't know it. He's about 5'3', balding and in his late 50's...like
a lot of us! I would agree that the qualifier "good" is important and
that can be somewhat subjective. I taste about 50-75 wines per week
for evaluation in regards to import and distribution most of which are
in the under $20.00 category. Generally speaking we find roughly one
or two per month that would qualify for consideration in our portfolio
in that price range and perhaps less than 10 red wines per year in the
under $10.00. I could post a few if anyone is interested. Most are
French with a smattering of Italian or South American. I agree
wholeheartedly with your production cost/pricing scenario.



On Jan 22, 3:12*pm, "UC" > wrote:
> Emery Davis wrote:
> > On 22 Jan 2007 11:10:43 -0800
> > "Bi!!" > wrote:
>
> > > No, I don't agree with you.
>
> > []
>
> > Bill, you must have a Sysiphean complex. *Really, ignore the
> > guy. *He deserves neither more nor less.I was speaking primarily of reds, for which the $10 minimum pretty much
> obtains.
>
> Find a GOOD red for under $10? Not very many out there.
>
>
>
> > My point, lost on the All American Buckeye, was about
> > production cost and relation to eventual pricing, as you no
> > doubt saw.
>
> > I hope others in your market see the list, though. *Pearls before
> > swine.
>
> > To your very good health,
>
> > -E
>
> > --
> > Emery Davis
> > You can reply to
> > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

So, you don't think that production cost has anything to do with the final
product cost on wine?

All wine? So you think that Aldmen on box wine and Franzia don't compete
head to head and would drop price if cost allow to increase market share and
gain more shelf space?

Chateaux Margaux---I agree. But I bet it cost more to make that then it
cost for the average 5th growth. First, the production is smaller and that
makes a difference when allocating cost.

Size of operation plays a direct role if run effeciently than smaller
companies.

That said I think small, well run wineries do have advantages in quality.
But only the best well run. Saywer Cellars, Napa, Reverie, El
Molino...Larkmead, Tantara, etc. Small produciton houses where often the
owner is directly involved and perfoms most tasks.

Their costs are often lower, they can pick over day and decide which
clusters are ripe vs not ripe. etc.

I totally disagree.

Also, since image plays a key role here I must say that lower priced wines
and wineries that are lower priced cost is a key consideration in production
and retail price targets are generated in that vein to be competitive.

Retailers always want to know, why does your product need to be on my
shelves. I guess if you can say, I have a great value at 92 points from
Wine Spectator and $2 less bottle than your other crap with good rating it
will sell and consumers will come in looking for it...Price played a role.

If price did not play a role why is Aus subsidizing to gain world wide
market share? Just float at any price?

Gallo of Sonoma for $100 bottle...why not?




"Bi!!" > wrote in message
oups.com...
LOL! It's hard for me to ignore him because I've met him....he just
doesn't know it. He's about 5'3', balding and in his late 50's...like
a lot of us! I would agree that the qualifier "good" is important and
that can be somewhat subjective. I taste about 50-75 wines per week
for evaluation in regards to import and distribution most of which are
in the under $20.00 category. Generally speaking we find roughly one
or two per month that would qualify for consideration in our portfolio
in that price range and perhaps less than 10 red wines per year in the
under $10.00. I could post a few if anyone is interested. Most are
French with a smattering of Italian or South American. I agree
wholeheartedly with your production cost/pricing scenario.



On Jan 22, 3:12pm, "UC" > wrote:
> Emery Davis wrote:
> > On 22 Jan 2007 11:10:43 -0800
> > "Bi!!" > wrote:
>
> > > No, I don't agree with you.
>
> > []
>
> > Bill, you must have a Sysiphean complex. Really, ignore the
> > guy. He deserves neither more nor less.I was speaking primarily of reds,
> > for which the $10 minimum pretty much
> obtains.
>
> Find a GOOD red for under $10? Not very many out there.
>
>
>
> > My point, lost on the All American Buckeye, was about
> > production cost and relation to eventual pricing, as you no
> > doubt saw.
>
> > I hope others in your market see the list, though. Pearls before
> > swine.
>
> > To your very good health,
>
> > -E
>
> > --
> > Emery Davis
> > You can reply to
> > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted
> > text -

He sold it last year to Ardie Bonano and it's now called 55Degrees.
Much the same book with some nice wines including a bunch of 1st
growths. Peter Wygandt is a vendor of mine that you might know. He
finds a great QPR from time to time.

On Jan 22, 6:18*pm, "Joe \"Beppe\"Rosenberg" > wrote:
> UC--(or Bi)---does David Shiverick still have a wholesale operation in Ohio.
> He imported some good QPR wines from Province, Languedoc & other less known
> areas--He also had Vin Pays d'Oc in four flavors that hit the stores in
> Maryland at $40 a case or $4.99 a bottle, $15 in a bistro. *I personally
> sold half a small container at a pre-order wholesale price of $36 a case.
> Fran Kysela, Leo Fox & Bobbie Kacher also search for QPR wines. *Maybe a
> trip to Cleveland(Shaker Heights) or Zinzcinnati is in order after all a
> Buckeye's beverage of choice is Milwaukee's Best Lite. *The ghost of Woody
> is still crying in his beer........"DaleW" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
> Nice list, the Brocard is especially nice for the price.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bi!! wrote:
> > I'll say this one more time Mr. UC. *You cannot pop your head into
> > Gentile's on occasion and find decent wines for under $10.00 but they
> > do exist. *You cannot limit your purchases to only wines from Italy,
> > you must attend tastings...sorry, I forgot, you don't ever taste wine.
> > A few examples of wines that retail for under $10.00 in Ohio:
> > Albert Mann Tokay Pinot Gris
> > Brocard Sauvignon de St Bris
> > Chateau Coup Roses Minervois
> > Mourgues de Gres Rose
> > Montirius Cotes du Rhone
> > Ch.du Pavillion Bordeaux Rouge
> > these come to mind off the top of my head but I could list at least
> > another 50. *If you limit yourself to Italy, and only to a few wine
> > stores in Grandview you won't fine too may wines for less than $10.00
> > but they are there.
>
> > On Jan 21, 2:59 pm, "UC" > wrote:
> > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > > On 20 Jan 2007 14:16:02 -0800
> > > > "DaleW" > wrote:
>
> > > > > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > > []
> > > > > $300....)? Winemakers everywhere charge based on what the market can
> > > > > bear, not on costs. In fact, the biggest problems come when they
> > > > > concentrate on what they think they should be paid, rather than what
>
> > > > I think that we're pretty much in line with all this. The part I
> object to
> > > > is the common statement on this group that quality is determined by
> > > > price; and that it's impossible to make great (or even good) wine for
> > > > under $10 (or some even say $20) USD. As you know there's plenty of
> > > > good wine here for under that price.Not today, not in Ohio, not withthe US distribution system.. Only on
>
>
>
> > > rare occasions can one find a decent bottle for less than about $8-10.
>
> > > > Adele gave me the 07 Guide Hachette for christmas, the first copy
> > > > I've had since 2002 I think. It's amazing to look through an
> appellation,
> > > > you can clearly see which wines have had success (good reviews)
> > > > in the export market. They're priced at ?15-20 where the neighbor's
> > > > are at ?5-8. And I'm willing to bet the quality of the more expensive
> > > > is not always higher. Anyway I've never seen such disparity in
> previous
> > > > editions.
>
> > > > I won't get into a discussion about who's further to the left. <g>
> > > > Aux barricades! Reprivatisez le EDF! Vive la Presidente!
>
> > > > []
>
> > > > > 15 hl is pretty extraordinary in a 2005 Bordeaux. Do you know
> > > > > > the style of Bellevue Mondotte?
>
> > > > > Um, it's a garagiste wine by Gerard Perse (Pavie, Pavie-Decesse, if
> > > > > that gives you a clue. I'm sure concentration isn't a problem. Not
> my
> > > > > style is my guess.
>
> > > > Gotcha, I think we agree about this too.
>
> > > > > I don't think we're far apart , I just was trying to point out that
> > > > > comparing yields is not the same as comparing quality. I'm no fan of
> > > > > overly high yields, but it is not in and of itself a statement of
> how
> > > > > good wine is.
>
> > > > > cheers!
>
> > > > The same,
>
> > > > -E
>
> > > > --
> > > > Emery Davis
> > > > You can reply to
> > > > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quotedtext -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

This from my Blackberry so the reply will be short since my PC crapped
out today.
Ohio is a State in which the State controls the price of wine and sets
a minimum based on the price at which the winery decides to sell it
for. Obviously there are some aspects of production costs that are
passed along in the price of wine however I would not agree that it is
the major factor in pricing the wine. Take Brunello for example. The
consortium sets the yield limit and only authorizes a pre-determined
amount of labels as Brunello. THe rest of the fruit goes into Rosso at
a much lower price thus protecting the price of Brunello yet production
costs are quite close for the Brunello and the Rosso. $75.00 for
Brunello, $20 for Rosso. Remember that most of these vineyards and
wineries were established a few hundred years ago.

Chateau Margaux makes clsoe to 400,000 bottles of wine per year if you
include the Pavillion Rouge and Blanc at roughly 200,000 and 35,000
respectively. They have made wine there since 1700 in it's present
configuration. Somehow I think their costs are well in line with an
average 5th growth.

Almaden, Franzia, Gallo, Adler Fels, etc all are banking on the ablilty
of the California grape growers to grow and pick more grapes year after
year in spite of conditions and labor. Their biggest fear is
nationalization of illegal immigrants not the cost of a new barrel.
Their costing and pricing structures are entirely different from fine
wine makers.



On Jan 22, 7:05*pm, "Richard Neidich" > wrote:
> So, you don't think that production cost has anything to do with the final
> product cost on wine?
>
> All wine? *So you think that Aldmen on box wine and Franzia don't compete
> head to head and would drop price if cost allow to increase market share and
> gain more shelf space?
>
> Chateaux Margaux---I agree. *But I bet it cost more to make that then it
> cost for the average 5th growth. *First, the production is smaller and that
> makes a difference when allocating cost.
>
> Size of operation plays a direct role if run effeciently than smaller
> companies.
>
> That said I think small, well run wineries do have advantages in quality.
> But only the best well run. *Saywer Cellars, Napa, Reverie, El
> Molino...Larkmead, Tantara, etc. *Small produciton houses where often the
> owner is directly involved and perfoms most tasks.
>
> Their costs are often lower, they can pick over day and decide which
> clusters are ripe vs not ripe. etc.
>
> I totally disagree.
>
> Also, since image plays a key role here I must say that lower priced wines
> and wineries that are lower priced cost is a key consideration in production
> and retail price targets are generated in that vein to be competitive.
>
> Retailers always want to know, why does your product need to be on my
> shelves. *I guess if you can say, I have a great value at 92 points from
> Wine Spectator and $2 less bottle than your other crap with good rating it
> will sell and consumers will come in looking for it...Price played a role.
>
> If price did not play a role why is Aus subsidizing to gain world wide
> market share? *Just float at any price?
>
> Gallo of Sonoma for $100 bottle...why not?
>
> "Bi!!" > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
> LOL! *It's hard for me to ignore him because I've met him....he just
> doesn't know it. *He's about 5'3', balding and in his late 50's...like
> a lot of us! *I would agree that the qualifier "good" is important and
> that can be somewhat subjective. *I taste about 50-75 wines per week
> for evaluation in regards to import and distribution most of which are
> in the under $20.00 category. *Generally speaking we find roughly one
> or two per month that would qualify for consideration in our portfolio
> in that price range and perhaps less than 10 red wines per year in the
> under $10.00. *I could post a few if anyone is interested. *Most are
> French with a smattering of Italian or South American. *I agree
> wholeheartedly with your production cost/pricing scenario.
>
> On Jan 22, 3:12pm, "UC" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Emery Davis wrote:
> > > On 22 Jan 2007 11:10:43 -0800
> > > "Bi!!" > wrote:
>
> > > > No, I don't agree with you.
>
> > > []
>
> > > Bill, you must have a Sysiphean complex. Really, ignore the
> > > guy. He deserves neither more nor less.I was speaking primarily of reds,
> > > for which the $10 minimum pretty much
> > obtains.
>
> > Find a GOOD red for under $10? Not very many out there.
>
> > > My point, lost on the All American Buckeye, was about
> > > production cost and relation to eventual pricing, as you no
> > > doubt saw.
>
> > > I hope others in your market see the list, though. Pearls before
> > > swine.
>
> > > To your very good health,
>
> > > -E
>
> > > --
> > > Emery Davis
> > > You can reply to
> > > by removing the well known companies- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted
> > > text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

Bi!! wrote:
> Chateau Margaux makes clsoe to 400,000 bottles of wine per year if you
> include the Pavillion Rouge and Blanc at roughly 200,000 and 35,000
> respectively. They have made wine there since 1700 in it's present
> configuration. Somehow I think their costs are well in line with an
> average 5th growth.
>
that sounds about right. Probably a tad less than Pontet-Canet, but
bigger than any of the other 5ths.