Richard Neidich wrote:
> Miles, I actually disagree with that. I think in Euro-France, Italy and
> Span...they have very good inexpensive wines.
>
> In California there are few decent inexpensive wines.

Correct.

> I also think the pricing issue accounts for why the USA has a relatively low
> consumption of wine per capita.

I agree.
>
> Europeans have wine as part of a daily regimine and its affordable.

True, yes.

> Here in
> USA there is more snob appeal to wine. Sorry, I think it is true in
> general. Not necessarily in this group. We love wine for the art form, the
> taste, and a few here,,,the alcohol.

Yesh!

> But Italy and spain do have outstanding inexpensive wines as do Aus and NZ,
> Chili and Argentina.

It's spelled 'Chile' by the way, and, I have not had one yet that is
any good.

> In the under $10 from Ca, you really don't find much that is decent.

Right. Thus, marketing cheap decent 'Chianti' here is a reasonable
move.

I noted that of all the wine at the party last night (of various points
of origin), the $13 bottle of Michele Chiarlo Barbera d'Asti was BY FAR
the best.

> "miles" > wrote in message
> ...
> > UC wrote:
> >
> >> They spend more than $8.99. 'Chianti', though, fills the price
> >> point for those who want that $8.99 bottle and expect to get something
> >> better than cheap California jug wine.
> >
> > Italy is far more famous than anywhere else in the world for it's mass
> > quantities of cheap jug wine. If I want something cheap to serve at mixed
> > get togethers Italian wines always fit perfect.

Richard Neidich wrote:
> Miles, I actually disagree with that. I think in Euro-France, Italy and
> Span...they have very good inexpensive wines.

True, so does California, Oregon, Washington etc.

> In California there are few decent inexpensive wines.

There are quite a few decent inexpensive wines.

> I also think the pricing issue accounts for why the USA has a relatively low
> consumption of wine per capita.

It's a culture thing.

> Europeans have wine as part of a daily regimine and its affordable.

Yes, especially in Italy where very cheap jug wine is served with daily
meals. It's a different culture. Even if wine were dirt cheap and
decent in the USA people would not drink it with every meal.

> In the under $10 from Ca, you really don't find much that is decent.

Thats simply not true at all. There are numerous decent wines $8-$10.
Most of my favorites are from smaller wineries so they're not nationally
distributed. Also I do not shop at grocery stores for wine. They have
lousy selections at high prices. I go to Costco, Sams Club, Cost Plus
World Market or a number of wine warehouse stores. Most of my wines
however come directly from small wineries.

Some of my favorite decent CA wines that are nationally distributed a

Gallo Sonoma Chardonnay or Zinfandel
Wente Brothers Chardonnay (They have several in that price range)
7 Deadly Zins Zinfandel (Costco often has this for $10)
Napa Ridge Chardonnay Estate
Columbia Crest Estate Chardonnay or Zinfandel

There are many many more.

miles wrote:
> Richard Neidich wrote:
> > Miles, I actually disagree with that. I think in Euro-France, Italy and
> > Span...they have very good inexpensive wines.
>
> True, so does California, Oregon, Washington etc.
>
> > In California there are few decent inexpensive wines.
>
> There are quite a few decent inexpensive wines.
>
> > I also think the pricing issue accounts for why the USA has a relatively low
> > consumption of wine per capita.
>
> It's a culture thing.
>
> > Europeans have wine as part of a daily regimine and its affordable.
>
> Yes, especially in Italy where very cheap jug wine is served with daily
> meals. It's a different culture. Even if wine were dirt cheap and
> decent in the USA people would not drink it with every meal.
>
> > In the under $10 from Ca, you really don't find much that is decent.
>
> Thats simply not true at all. There are numerous decent wines $8-$10.
> Most of my favorites are from smaller wineries so they're not nationally
> distributed. Also I do not shop at grocery stores for wine. They have
> lousy selections at high prices. I go to Costco, Sams Club, Cost Plus
> World Market or a number of wine warehouse stores. Most of my wines
> however come directly from small wineries.
>
> Some of my favorite decent CA wines that are nationally distributed a
>
> Gallo Sonoma Chardonnay or Zinfandel
> Wente Brothers Chardonnay (They have several in that price range)
> 7 Deadly Zins Zinfandel (Costco often has this for $10)
> Napa Ridge Chardonnay Estate
> Columbia Crest Estate Chardonnay or Zinfandel
>
> There are many many more.

But how would they compare to a $9 Ruffino or Banfi 'Chianti'?

UC wrote:
> miles wrote:
>> Gallo Sonoma Chardonnay or Zinfandel
>> Wente Brothers Chardonnay (They have several in that price range)
>> 7 Deadly Zins Zinfandel (Costco often has this for $10)
>> Napa Ridge Chardonnay Estate
>> Columbia Crest Estate Chardonnay or Zinfandel
>>
>> There are many many more.
>
> But how would they compare to a $9 Ruffino or Banfi 'Chianti'?

Some better, some worse. I agree, the Chianti's I buy at Costco for
about $10 are very good values for the money. I'd have to say the Wente
and 7 deadly zins rank quite a bit higher than those Chianti's. The
Gallo Zin is about on par. Hard to compare Chardonnays because white
wines in general are cheaper than reds.

Cheap wines in the USA have stepped WAY up over the past 10 years or so.
Gallo used to be synonomous with cheap jug wine. Thats about all they
produced for decades. Not so any more. Same with Columbia Crest who
was known for their low end jug wines. They too now produce some
excellent quality wines. Quite a number of traditionally low end wine
makers have changed their markets considerably. Those wines are
bargains because it'll take years for them to lose the stigma of being
jug wine producers and thus the prices stay low.

Chile is correct...I type fast and goofed. Sorry.
"UC" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Richard Neidich wrote:
>> Miles, I actually disagree with that. I think in Euro-France, Italy and
>> Span...they have very good inexpensive wines.
>>
>> In California there are few decent inexpensive wines.
>
> Correct.
>
>> I also think the pricing issue accounts for why the USA has a relatively
>> low
>> consumption of wine per capita.
>
> I agree.
>>
>> Europeans have wine as part of a daily regimine and its affordable.
>
> True, yes.
>
>> Here in
>> USA there is more snob appeal to wine. Sorry, I think it is true in
>> general. Not necessarily in this group. We love wine for the art form,
>> the
>> taste, and a few here,,,the alcohol.
>
> Yesh!
>
>> But Italy and spain do have outstanding inexpensive wines as do Aus and
>> NZ,
>> Chili and Argentina.
>
> It's spelled 'Chile' by the way, and, I have not had one yet that is
> any good.
>
>> In the under $10 from Ca, you really don't find much that is decent.
>
> Right. Thus, marketing cheap decent 'Chianti' here is a reasonable
> move.
>
> I noted that of all the wine at the party last night (of various points
> of origin), the $13 bottle of Michele Chiarlo Barbera d'Asti was BY FAR
> the best.
>
>> "miles" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > UC wrote:
>> >
>> >> They spend more than $8.99. 'Chianti', though, fills the price
>> >> point for those who want that $8.99 bottle and expect to get something
>> >> better than cheap California jug wine.
>> >
>> > Italy is far more famous than anywhere else in the world for it's mass
>> > quantities of cheap jug wine. If I want something cheap to serve at
>> > mixed
>> > get togethers Italian wines always fit perfect.
>

Miles, when I spent a summer in Spain a few years ago I was drinking Rioja
for about $2.00 a bottle. The closest quality from California was much
higher than $10. Gallo of Sonoma could not hold a candle to these.

In my opinion we simply lack the low prices quality wines that exist in many
countries. Perhaps this is due to 3 tier system of distribution, the tax
burden on companies, health care cost gone to high or simply the opportunity
cost since land is so valuable in California. Either way I don't see the
quality in the wines you state vs many from other countries.

We do have outstanding wines in the $30-$75 dollar range however that in
Bordeaux/Burg would be more expensive.

My opinion only.

That said I love wines from all areas but each serves a purpose of their
own.



"miles" > wrote in message
...
> Richard Neidich wrote:
>> Miles, I actually disagree with that. I think in Euro-France, Italy and
>> Span...they have very good inexpensive wines.
>
> True, so does California, Oregon, Washington etc.
>
>> In California there are few decent inexpensive wines.
>
> There are quite a few decent inexpensive wines.
>
>> I also think the pricing issue accounts for why the USA has a relatively
>> low consumption of wine per capita.
>
> It's a culture thing.
>
>> Europeans have wine as part of a daily regimine and its affordable.
>
> Yes, especially in Italy where very cheap jug wine is served with daily
> meals. It's a different culture. Even if wine were dirt cheap and decent
> in the USA people would not drink it with every meal.
>
>> In the under $10 from Ca, you really don't find much that is decent.
>
> Thats simply not true at all. There are numerous decent wines $8-$10.
> Most of my favorites are from smaller wineries so they're not nationally
> distributed. Also I do not shop at grocery stores for wine. They have
> lousy selections at high prices. I go to Costco, Sams Club, Cost Plus
> World Market or a number of wine warehouse stores. Most of my wines
> however come directly from small wineries.
>
> Some of my favorite decent CA wines that are nationally distributed a
>
> Gallo Sonoma Chardonnay or Zinfandel
> Wente Brothers Chardonnay (They have several in that price range)
> 7 Deadly Zins Zinfandel (Costco often has this for $10)
> Napa Ridge Chardonnay Estate
> Columbia Crest Estate Chardonnay or Zinfandel
>
> There are many many more.

Richard Neidich wrote:
> Miles, when I spent a summer in Spain a few years ago I was drinking Rioja
> for about $2.00 a bottle. The closest quality from California was much
> higher than $10. Gallo of Sonoma could not hold a candle to these.

I've never tried Spanish wines. It's hard to compare prices when in
another country. Have to figure in typical salaries and exchange rates
for comparison. You're right though, there aren't many $2 wines that
are any good in the USA. Gallo Sonoma Estate wines are easily worth $10
though. They are certainly not jug wines.

> In my opinion we simply lack the low prices quality wines that exist in many
> countries.

Thats true but in the USA people do not drink wines with every meal.
It's a different culture. The demand for cheap wines just isn't there.
For a winery to produce $2 wines they've got to be able to sell a ton
to recoup the costs.

> Perhaps this is due to 3 tier system of distribution

That has a lot to do with it. The inability for wineries to ship direct
to consumers in most states makes it impossible for smaller wineries to
gain much of a market other than local.

> Either way I don't see the
> quality in the wines you state vs many from other countries.

Depends on your tastes. I generally prefer the styles typical of
California Reds over those of France and elsewhere. I do enjoy Aussie
Shiraz over California Syrahs.

> We do have outstanding wines in the $30-$75 dollar range however that in
> Bordeaux/Burg would be more expensive.

I'm not fond of Bordeaux's. I like a good Cab but am picky and the ones
I like are way too expensive. Used to buy Caymus Select for about $25
in the 80's. Now it's over $100. The USA has many excellent wines in
the $18-$25 range but they are not well distributed because of the
absurd distribution and tax laws as you've stated. I travel to
California about 4 times a year and stock up on what I can't buy here.

> That said I love wines from all areas but each serves a purpose of their
> own.

Thats true. I just prefer the styles predominant in California as well
as Oregon and Washington. Willimate Valley has some supurb Pinot Noirs
for instance. I have yet to find anywhere in the world that makes a
better Zinfandel (Primotivo) than California and thats one of my favorites.

The reasons why wine is not a part of regular daily routine in the US of A:
1. Our puritanical legacy---alcohol is evil, thus Prohibition and regulatory
restrictions.

2. Wine is a snobbish enjoyment---this is fostered by point chasers,
elitist retail salespersons, wine stewards and the practice of charging
double and triple retail prices on a wine list. I don't know how many times
I've heard "My customers won't order anything under $xx" Food barns
likeTGIF, Applebee's place priority on turning a table over---wine service
adds minutes to a customer's visit. Mixed drinks & beer are more
profitable.

3. The influence of groups like MADD, well meaning, but constantly lobbying
for lowering legal alcohol levels for driver's being charged with being
alcohol impaired. How dangerous do you think a driver may be by drinking 2
or 3 double lattes on an empty stomach? MADD also monitors retail venues to
ensure that in store tastings are in accordance with State and local laws.
Just their presence, curtails these events. Store managers close things
down because of the time and expense contesting MADD's allegation. Many
times MADD is unaware of changes in local rules or is just overzealous and
want no alcohol served in a store regardless of the pertinent regulations
The contrast
in a State very conscious of MADD and similar groups and those less fearful
is dramatic; At Maryland winefestivals you get 10 tickets for one ounce
pours and State police with breathalyzers are at every exit and on occasion
urge someone to voluntarily take the test. Now you can buy bigger pours and
bottles but the casual attendee knows big brother is watching. In Virginia
you get unlimited pours and Commonwealth police are less obvious. Required
Government labeling also alerts consumers that they are imbibing an evil
substance especially if they are with child and driving a tractor or lawn
mover.

Many consumer friendly wine education groups have restricted the number of
wines per tastings or classes. Often they buy insurance that protects them
if someone leaves and is arrested. Sipping and spitting at these events is
considered gauche and unsanitary. Now some of these Advocacy group
initiatives are credible, like harsher penalties for drunk driving & causing
an accident and I can emphasize with the loss of a loved one. But there
should be limits on zealotry. IMHO.

4. The last factor is universal---greed---the mark ups of wholesalers and
retailers are at times excessive, more than a third of the cost at each
stop. Anyone who's bought or ordered a favorite in Europe at half the US
normal retail price knows gobs and gobs of profit are the rule not the
exception. I don't think warehousing and selling wine is bad but by
overpricing, wines especially at the consumer's threshold is
counterproductive. Its not only lawyers who should be shunned but CPA's and
other penny counters. IMHO of course.
"miles" > wrote in message
...
> UC wrote:
> > miles wrote:
> >> Gallo Sonoma Chardonnay or Zinfandel
> >> Wente Brothers Chardonnay (They have several in that price range)
> >> 7 Deadly Zins Zinfandel (Costco often has this for $10)
> >> Napa Ridge Chardonnay Estate
> >> Columbia Crest Estate Chardonnay or Zinfandel
> >>
> >> There are many many more.
> >
> > But how would they compare to a $9 Ruffino or Banfi 'Chianti'?
>
> Some better, some worse. I agree, the Chianti's I buy at Costco for
> about $10 are very good values for the money. I'd have to say the Wente
> and 7 deadly zins rank quite a bit higher than those Chianti's. The
> Gallo Zin is about on par. Hard to compare Chardonnays because white
> wines in general are cheaper than reds.
>
> Cheap wines in the USA have stepped WAY up over the past 10 years or so.
> Gallo used to be synonomous with cheap jug wine. Thats about all they
> produced for decades. Not so any more. Same with Columbia Crest who
> was known for their low end jug wines. They too now produce some
> excellent quality wines. Quite a number of traditionally low end wine
> makers have changed their markets considerably. Those wines are
> bargains because it'll take years for them to lose the stigma of being
> jug wine producers and thus the prices stay low.

Joe "Beppe"Rosenberg wrote:
> The reasons why wine is not a part of regular daily routine in the US of A:
> 1. Our puritanical legacy---alcohol is evil, thus Prohibition and regulatory
> restrictions.

Prohibition went out a long time ago and I'd say most were not even
alive during Prohibition. Totally different generation.

> 2. Wine is a snobbish enjoyment---this is fostered by point chasers,
> elitist retail salespersons, wine stewards and the practice of charging
> double and triple retail prices on a wine list.

That is partly true but is starting to change considerably. A couple
decades ago when I went wine tasting throughout California most others
were very snobbish. Generally only people interested in wines ever went
wine tasting. Today when out at the wineries I find a vastly different
crowd. The people are mostly newbies just out having fun for the day
and wanting to learn more about wines. The snobbishness is slowly dying
off but there will always be that crowd.

How are laws in other countries regarding public intoxication or
especially drunk driving? In the USA DUI laws in most states have
gotten tougher and tougher every year. That probably limits drinking in
general while out at a restaurant or bar.

Still, I am seeing quite a number of wine bars opening up all over town
at least here in AZ the past few years. They have wine makers on some
nights as well as food pairing. It's quite a fun social thing to do and
every time I have gone it is not wine snobs attending. Just people out
having fun.

Miles with all due respect the cultural aspect of prohibition still exists.

Elites run this country and run it to their advantage. Gov for the people,
by the people is hogwash and always has been.

The 3-tier system mostly exists so that local monopolies could be created.
The people running them wanted to protect their investments so they sold it
as a way to collect taxes for the state and have more control. Free Market
is the only real solution and they can just have higher taxes.

I think Joe in a different thread explained real live examples that
logistically it makes sense for wineries to use the 3 tier system and I
agree. But it should not be a legal requirement. A winery should be able
to decide how to bring their product to market. Example is Frito Lay brings
product on thier own trucks to stores called DSD. M & M /Mars has combos
from the Snackmasters division that delivers direct to the retailers DC and
lets them distribute. Both have advantages and disadvantages and its up to
them to decide.

Snobbery does exist in my opinion in the same manner that people buy
diamonds for jewelry or a Rolex vs a Timex. I am not trying to make a value
judgement but drinking wine is restricted for the most part to people here
of means of at least middle class. $5 a day for a bottle of wine is $150
per month. Thats more than lower middle classes here have as discretionary
income. So at $10 its almost $300 a month.

My point is the lower the price of quality wine the more people can learn to
enjoy wine. Right now the elites keep that market high just like diamond
dealers do.

We are all pawns of a marketing scheme perpetuated since the days of
prohibition that keeps some from ever being able to afford decent wine.

After all if Diamonds were worthless rather than priceless why woud we give
them to our women. Its all about image. Wine is to. Can't ignore the
facts.

I think UC is correct on many things he says because he is the anti wine
snob. I beleive our wine prices are high not by chance but by choice of
importers, local distributors and it is a monopoly of sorts.

"miles" > wrote in message
...
> Joe "Beppe"Rosenberg wrote:
>> The reasons why wine is not a part of regular daily routine in the US of
>> A:
>> 1. Our puritanical legacy---alcohol is evil, thus Prohibition and
>> regulatory
>> restrictions.
>
> Prohibition went out a long time ago and I'd say most were not even alive
> during Prohibition. Totally different generation.
>
>> 2. Wine is a snobbish enjoyment---this is fostered by point chasers,
>> elitist retail salespersons, wine stewards and the practice of charging
>> double and triple retail prices on a wine list.
>
> That is partly true but is starting to change considerably. A couple
> decades ago when I went wine tasting throughout California most others
> were very snobbish. Generally only people interested in wines ever went
> wine tasting. Today when out at the wineries I find a vastly different
> crowd. The people are mostly newbies just out having fun for the day and
> wanting to learn more about wines. The snobbishness is slowly dying off
> but there will always be that crowd.
>
> How are laws in other countries regarding public intoxication or
> especially drunk driving? In the USA DUI laws in most states have gotten
> tougher and tougher every year. That probably limits drinking in general
> while out at a restaurant or bar.
>
> Still, I am seeing quite a number of wine bars opening up all over town at
> least here in AZ the past few years. They have wine makers on some nights
> as well as food pairing. It's quite a fun social thing to do and every
> time I have gone it is not wine snobs attending. Just people out having
> fun.

Richard Neidich wrote:
> Miles with all due respect the cultural aspect of prohibition still exists.

I don't think people are afraid to drink because of prohibition from
decades ago. That was my point.

> I think Joe in a different thread explained real live examples that
> logistically it makes sense for wineries to use the 3 tier system and I
> agree.

Wineries are largely lobbying against the absurd distribution laws we
now have. They generally want them overturned so they can ship direct
to consumers. Possibly larger wineries do not want this because it
would invite competition from the numerous smaller wineries.

> I think UC is correct on many things he says because he is the anti wine
> snob.

No. He has his own 'correct' way to drink or taste wines and everyone
else is wrong. That is a wine snob! Drink wine however you enjoy it!!
Everyones different and thats ok by me.

Richard Neidich wrote:
> Miles with all due respect the cultural aspect of prohibition still exists.

Yes, with this I agree.

>
> Elites run this country and run it to their advantage. Gov for the people,
> by the people is hogwash and always has been.
>
> The 3-tier system mostly exists so that local monopolies could be created.
> The people running them wanted to protect their investments so they sold it
> as a way to collect taxes for the state and have more control. Free Market
> is the only real solution and they can just have higher taxes.

Perhaps. I think that when you can buy an Italian wine in Germany for
$10 and it costs $25 here, something is dreadfully wrong, even allowing
for shipping.

> I think Joe in a different thread explained real live examples that
> logistically it makes sense for wineries to use the 3 tier system and I
> agree. But it should not be a legal requirement. A winery should be able
> to decide how to bring their product to market. Example is Frito Lay brings
> product on thier own trucks to stores called DSD. M & M /Mars has combos
> from the Snackmasters division that delivers direct to the retailers DC and
> lets them distribute. Both have advantages and disadvantages and its up to
> them to decide.
>
> Snobbery does exist in my opinion in the same manner that people buy
> diamonds for jewelry or a Rolex vs a Timex. I am not trying to make a value
> judgement but drinking wine is restricted for the most part to people here
> of means of at least middle class. $5 a day for a bottle of wine is $150
> per month. Thats more than lower middle classes here have as discretionary
> income. So at $10 its almost $300 a month.

True, yes.
>
> My point is the lower the price of quality wine the more people can learn to
> enjoy wine. Right now the elites keep that market high just like diamond
> dealers do.

No, I don't think that's the reason. A lot of it is gouging by
producers, along with general inflation and currency exchange rates,
and the 3-tier system multiplies that.

> We are all pawns of a marketing scheme perpetuated since the days of
> prohibition that keeps some from ever being able to afford decent wine.
>
> After all if Diamonds were worthless rather than priceless why woud we give
> them to our women. Its all about image. Wine is to. Can't ignore the
> facts.
>
> I think UC is correct on many things he says because he is the anti wine
> snob.

It's not really so much snobbery that I oppose, but scientifically
unsound practices and beliefs. Many of the 'snob' practices and beliefs
are simply mistaken; a few are not. I don't care to discuss wine to
death (using all sorts of obscure terms), 'taste' it, sniff it, look at
it in the 'right' light, assign it a number, or open it 8 hours before
serving it. I just open it and drink it. If it's not to my liking, I
don't buy it again.

> I beleive our wine prices are high not by chance but by choice of
> importers, local distributors and it is a monopoly of sorts.
>
> "miles" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Joe "Beppe"Rosenberg wrote:
> >> The reasons why wine is not a part of regular daily routine in the US of
> >> A:
> >> 1. Our puritanical legacy---alcohol is evil, thus Prohibition and
> >> regulatory
> >> restrictions.
> >
> > Prohibition went out a long time ago and I'd say most were not even alive
> > during Prohibition. Totally different generation.
> >
> >> 2. Wine is a snobbish enjoyment---this is fostered by point chasers,
> >> elitist retail salespersons, wine stewards and the practice of charging
> >> double and triple retail prices on a wine list.
> >
> > That is partly true but is starting to change considerably. A couple
> > decades ago when I went wine tasting throughout California most others
> > were very snobbish. Generally only people interested in wines ever went
> > wine tasting. Today when out at the wineries I find a vastly different
> > crowd. The people are mostly newbies just out having fun for the day and
> > wanting to learn more about wines. The snobbishness is slowly dying off
> > but there will always be that crowd.
> >
> > How are laws in other countries regarding public intoxication or
> > especially drunk driving? In the USA DUI laws in most states have gotten
> > tougher and tougher every year. That probably limits drinking in general
> > while out at a restaurant or bar.
> >
> > Still, I am seeing quite a number of wine bars opening up all over town at
> > least here in AZ the past few years. They have wine makers on some nights
> > as well as food pairing. It's quite a fun social thing to do and every
> > time I have gone it is not wine snobs attending. Just people out having
> > fun.

UC wrote:

> Perhaps. I think that when you can buy an Italian wine in Germany for
> $10 and it costs $25 here, something is dreadfully wrong, even allowing
> for shipping.

Exchange rates and tariffs might play a role. Also, why should a winery
or distributor sell a wine for $10 when people are willing to pay $25?

Joe "Beppe"Rosenberg wrote:
> The reasons why wine is not a part of regular daily routine in the US
of A:
> 1. Our puritanical legacy---alcohol is evil, thus Prohibition and
regulatory
> restrictions.

Well not exactly Joe. You only have to look back to 1909 and the
publication of a Bible by a real forward looking gent named Scofield
who published his notes side by side with scripture. A bunch of people
got confused about what was scripture and what was notes and the
Fundamentalist movement was born. If you look back to the Pilgrims,
they drank beer on the Mayflower, to be on the safe side. The
anti-alcohol movement was started in this country by those
fundamentalists to save souls and increase their following. Looking back
to the 1890's, even cocaine was in general use and not frowned upon, ie
Coca Cola. The mainstream church groups caught on to saving
souls around 1917. The John Wesley Bible Society was the cauldron
that hatched the Womens Christian Temperance Union that was a major
influence on getting Prohibition passed. My grandmother was a member
of that and I am sure she drank wine before the movement started.
The Puritans and Pilgrims were rather severe but they knew that water
was dangerous.

miles wrote:
> Richard Neidich wrote:
>
>> Miles with all due respect the cultural aspect of prohibition still
>> exists.
>
>
> I don't think people are afraid to drink because of prohibition from
> decades ago. That was my point.

No one said that people were afraid to drink because of Prohibition,
Miles -- that was just your reading. Prohibition has had a lasting
effect on Americans' wine consumption. During Prohibition, most
domestic wineries went out of business and virtually no wine was
imported. Even after the end of Prohibition, the Depression kept US
wineries from reappearing and WW II disrupted wine production in Europe
and importation to the US. It wasn't until the 1960s that our domestic
industry really began its rebound and only in the past two decades that
domestic premium wine consumption has steadily increased. There's a
close parallel to what happened to coffee consumption in the US. When
importation of coffee from Indonesia was brought to an end in WWII,
Americans were forced to drink robusta coffee from S. America. It
wasn't until the '70s that Americans began to rediscover the taste of
freshly roasted arabica coffees, and the rest (Starbucks) is history.


>> I think UC is correct on many things he says because he is the anti
>> wine snob.
>
>
> No. He has his own 'correct' way to drink or taste wines and everyone
> else is wrong. That is a wine snob! Drink wine however you enjoy it!!
> Everyones different and thats ok by me.

UC is a hidebound idealogue masquerading as a free thinker. His
opinions aren't worth the electricity it takes to transport them over
the Internet.

Mark Lipton

"AyTee" > wrote:

>> ... the Black Rooster remains but now is
>> challenged by PETA(an American Animal Rights
>> Group)---apparently they understand Chianti contains some dead
>> cock.

> Yum! Vin au coq. My favorite dish.

Drink. Dish would be Coq au vin.

M.

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
m...
>
> UC is a hidebound idealogue masquerading as a free thinker. His opinions
> aren't worth the electricity it takes to transport them over the
> Internet.

While this comment has a certain humor I would like to say perhaps its not
his opinions that are the issue but the manner in which he chose to express
them. I find UC passionate about italian wines and he is culturally
committed to wine. I think this differs from socially committed to wine.
My opinion only. That said the commment on "His opinions aren't worth the
electricity it takes to transport them over the Internet" while funny, its
not very nice.

Mark Lipton wrote:
> miles wrote:
> > Richard Neidich wrote:
> >
> >> Miles with all due respect the cultural aspect of prohibition still
> >> exists.
> >
> >
> > I don't think people are afraid to drink because of prohibition from
> > decades ago. That was my point.
>
> No one said that people were afraid to drink because of Prohibition,
> Miles -- that was just your reading. Prohibition has had a lasting
> effect on Americans' wine consumption. During Prohibition, most
> domestic wineries went out of business and virtually no wine was
> imported. Even after the end of Prohibition, the Depression kept US
> wineries from reappearing and WW II disrupted wine production in Europe
> and importation to the US. It wasn't until the 1960s that our domestic
> industry really began its rebound and only in the past two decades that
> domestic premium wine consumption has steadily increased. There's a
> close parallel to what happened to coffee consumption in the US. When
> importation of coffee from Indonesia was brought to an end in WWII,
> Americans were forced to drink robusta coffee from S. America. It
> wasn't until the '70s that Americans began to rediscover the taste of
> freshly roasted arabica coffees, and the rest (Starbucks) is history.
>
>
> >> I think UC is correct on many things he says because he is the anti
> >> wine snob.
> >
> >
> > No. He has his own 'correct' way to drink or taste wines and everyone
> > else is wrong. That is a wine snob! Drink wine however you enjoy it!!
> > Everyones different and thats ok by me.
>
> UC is a hidebound idealogue masquerading as a free thinker. His
> opinions aren't worth the electricity it takes to transport them over
> the Internet.

Why? Because I laugh at people who buy Opus One instead of Conterno or
Gaja or Passopisciaro?

Because I despise buying wine by Wine Spectator ratings (and even the
concept of 'rating' itself) and the Parkerization of a lot of wine?

My outlook is thoroughly unpretentious. I assure you that if you had
the opportunity to attend one of my regional Italian dinners
accompanied by my selection of regional Italian wines (of various price
points) you would never drink anything but Italian wine.

The next dinner will be Lombardian/Northern Italy food and wines.

> Mark Lipton

miles wrote:
> UC wrote:
>
>> Perhaps. I think that when you can buy an Italian wine in Germany for
>> $10 and it costs $25 here, something is dreadfully wrong, even allowing
>> for shipping.
>
> Exchange rates and tariffs might play a role. Also, why should a winery
> or distributor sell a wine for $10 when people are willing to pay $25?
>

Interesting, this and the preceding comments...
I happen to be a small producer, but never thought it would have been
impossible for me to direct ship my wine in any country. It is true, I
have to admit, that I never had to take into account US regulations, for
instance. Is this direct shipping formally impossible for some
countries, instead? Would I need to pay my fee to an
importer/distributor, in some cases?
I am trying to enforce this policy of mine: price is the same whether
private customers or dealers want to buy. I may want to give some
bottles as freebies every N purchased, still regardless of the
purchaser's role. Of course, dealers are then free to choose their mark
up rate.
By the way, I am amazed at the prices that I can read in this thread as
considered to be the minimum threshold of drinkability. ;-) Off my
"cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.. and I never
thought I was putting my would-be-artisan wine in the plonk price range :-|

filippo wrote:
> miles wrote:
> > UC wrote:
> >
> >> Perhaps. I think that when you can buy an Italian wine in Germany for
> >> $10 and it costs $25 here, something is dreadfully wrong, even allowing
> >> for shipping.
> >
> > Exchange rates and tariffs might play a role. Also, why should a winery
> > or distributor sell a wine for $10 when people are willing to pay $25?
> >
>
> Interesting, this and the preceding comments...
> I happen to be a small producer, but never thought it would have been
> impossible for me to direct ship my wine in any country. It is true, I
> have to admit, that I never had to take into account US regulations, for
> instance. Is this direct shipping formally impossible for some
> countries, instead? Would I need to pay my fee to an
> importer/distributor, in some cases?
> I am trying to enforce this policy of mine: price is the same whether
> private customers or dealers want to buy. I may want to give some
> bottles as freebies every N purchased, still regardless of the
> purchaser's role. Of course, dealers are then free to choose their mark
> up rate.
> By the way, I am amazed at the prices that I can read in this thread as
> considered to be the minimum threshold of drinkability. ;-) Off my
> "cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.. and I never
> thought I was putting my would-be-artisan wine in the plonk price range :-|

In most of the US, it is almost impossible to get a 'good' bottle of
wine for under $10. Every once in a while there will be special
purchases or discontinued items that can be had cheap, but these are of
course the exception rather than the rule.

UC wrote:
> filippo wrote:

>> By the way, I am amazed at the prices that I can read in this thread as
>> considered to be the minimum threshold of drinkability. ;-) Off my
>> "cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.. and I never
>> thought I was putting my would-be-artisan wine in the plonk price range :-|
>
> In most of the US, it is almost impossible to get a 'good' bottle of
> wine for under $10. Every once in a while there will be special
> purchases or discontinued items that can be had cheap, but these are of
> course the exception rather than the rule.
>

Where do the monies go? Or, alternatively: if the wine started off me at
5 euros, how much would the u.s. private customer need to pay, at least?

filippo wrote:
> UC wrote:
> > filippo wrote:
>
> >> By the way, I am amazed at the prices that I can read in this thread as
> >> considered to be the minimum threshold of drinkability. ;-) Off my
> >> "cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.. and I never
> >> thought I was putting my would-be-artisan wine in the plonk price range :-|
> >
> > In most of the US, it is almost impossible to get a 'good' bottle of
> > wine for under $10. Every once in a while there will be special
> > purchases or discontinued items that can be had cheap, but these are of
> > course the exception rather than the rule.
> >
>
> Where do the monies go? Or, alternatively: if the wine started off me at
> 5 euros, how much would the u.s. private customer need to pay, at least?

Probably $20.

I know that Rocca Rubia sells locally for $26. In Germany, it's about
$10 less! I have seen even wider price differentials.

http://vivalavida.de/santadi-rocca-r...2003-p-72.html

http://www.ruesing-weine.de/app.php?...9b491ceb300983

Argiolas Perdera Monica di Sardegna sells here for $13:
http://www.ronaldis-weinshop.de/shop...ails&anid=4453

Radici Taurasi Riserva sells here for $40:
http://www.yatego.com/weinfinger/p,4...09b2346194a2ef

UC wrote:
> filippo wrote:
>> UC wrote:
>>> filippo wrote:
>>>> By the way, I am amazed at the prices that I can read in this thread as
>>>> considered to be the minimum threshold of drinkability. ;-) Off my
>>>> "cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.. and I never
>>>> thought I was putting my would-be-artisan wine in the plonk price range :-|
>>> In most of the US, it is almost impossible to get a 'good' bottle of
>>> wine for under $10. Every once in a while there will be special
>>> purchases or discontinued items that can be had cheap, but these are of
>>> course the exception rather than the rule.
>>>
>> Where do the monies go? Or, alternatively: if the wine started off me at
>> 5 euros, how much would the u.s. private customer need to pay, at least?
>
> Probably $20.

=8-O

....er..ok.. so long for the u.s. market. sorry.

filippo wrote:
> UC wrote:
> > filippo wrote:
> >> UC wrote:
> >>> filippo wrote:
> >>>> By the way, I am amazed at the prices that I can read in this thread as
> >>>> considered to be the minimum threshold of drinkability. ;-) Off my
> >>>> "cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.. and I never
> >>>> thought I was putting my would-be-artisan wine in the plonk price range :-|
> >>> In most of the US, it is almost impossible to get a 'good' bottle of
> >>> wine for under $10. Every once in a while there will be special
> >>> purchases or discontinued items that can be had cheap, but these are of
> >>> course the exception rather than the rule.
> >>>
> >> Where do the monies go? Or, alternatively: if the wine started off me at
> >> 5 euros, how much would the u.s. private customer need to pay, at least?
> >
> > Probably $20.
>
> =8-O
>
> ...er..ok.. so long for the u.s. market. sorry.

Argiolas wines are a fantastic value at $13-16 for their whites and
reds. Nobody comes close for that price. You have to go to $25 to do
better in many cases. Fiano d'Avellino goes for $26!

"Joe \"Beppe\"Rosenberg" > wrote:

> Tavernalle in Val di Pesa

Tavern_e_lle, iirc.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:
> "Joe \"Beppe\"Rosenberg" > wrote:
>
>> Tavernalle in Val di Pesa
>
> Tavern_e_lle, iirc.

Ok, to be exact is "TavArnElle in val di Pesa".
Other minor spelling corrections a
Mercatale val di Pesa
Montefiridolfi
Poggibonsi
Castelnuovo Berardenga
Cerreto
San Gusme'.

filippo > wrote:

> Off my "cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.

Filippo, what wine do you produce where? I might be interested
(as a private costomer, resident of Austria). You can mail me,
my address comes when you chose "reply by mail".

Mille grazie in avanti,

M.

filippo > wrote:

>>> Tavernalle in Val di Pesa

>> Tavern_e_lle, iirc.

> Ok, to be exact is "TavArnElle in val di Pesa".

OK, I stand corrected ... ;-)

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:
> filippo > wrote:
>
>> Off my "cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.
>
> Filippo, what wine do you produce where? I might be interested
> (as a private costomer, resident of Austria). You can mail me,
> my address comes when you chose "reply by mail".
>
> Mille grazie in avanti,

Michael, I produce a very small quantity of Toscana IGT in Gaiole in
Chianti. My vineyard is not in the registrar of DOCG Chianti Classico
anymore, since this changed from DOC to DOCG (1984), so no black
roosters round my neck ;-) Mostly sangiovese with a small amount of
canaiolo and, till 2004, a sprinkle of malvasia. Thanks to you for
asking. My email address is working, provided you apply the "da vinci
code" to the <user> portion ;-)

filippo wrote:
> Michael Pronay wrote:
>> filippo > wrote:
>>
>>> Off my "cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.
>> Filippo, what wine do you produce where? I might be interested
>> (as a private costomer, resident of Austria). You can mail me,
>> my address comes when you chose "reply by mail".
>>
>> Mille grazie in avanti,
>
> Michael, I produce a very small quantity of Toscana IGT in Gaiole in
> Chianti.

In addition to doing Chemical Physics? You're a multitalented
individual, Filippo!

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote:
> filippo wrote:


>> Michael, I produce a very small quantity of Toscana IGT in Gaiole in
>> Chianti.
>
> In addition to doing Chemical Physics?

How do you know that? ;-))

> You're a multitalented
> individual, Filippo!

Well.. you know.. there is some chemistry and physics in wine making..

filippo wrote:
> Mark Lipton wrote:
>> filippo wrote:
>
>
>>> Michael, I produce a very small quantity of Toscana IGT in Gaiole in
>>> Chianti.
>> In addition to doing Chemical Physics?
>
> How do you know that? ;-))

Do the da Vinci thing on *my* email address, apply a bit of Google, and
all will be clear... ;-)

>
>> You're a multitalented
>> individual, Filippo!
>
> Well.. you know.. there is some chemistry and physics in wine making..

Indeed I do, indeed I do... :-)

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote:
> filippo wrote:
> > Mark Lipton wrote:
> >> filippo wrote:
> >
> >
> >>> Michael, I produce a very small quantity of Toscana IGT in Gaiole in
> >>> Chianti.
> >> In addition to doing Chemical Physics?
> >
> > How do you know that? ;-))
>
> Do the da Vinci thing on *my* email address, apply a bit of Google, and
> all will be clear... ;-)
>
> >
> >> You're a multitalented
> >> individual, Filippo!
> >
> > Well.. you know.. there is some chemistry and physics in wine making..
>
> Indeed I do, indeed I do... :-)
>
> Mark Lipton

So, what is 'Chianti', anyway?

Mark Lipton wrote:
> filippo wrote:
>> Mark Lipton wrote:


>>> In addition to doing Chemical Physics?
>> How do you know that? ;-))
>
> Do the da Vinci thing on *my* email address, apply a bit of Google, and
> all will be clear... ;-)

I see...Professor Notpil, I presume..

In article >,
says...

[SNIP some good commentary]

Filippo,

You lack of "knowledge" about alt.food.wine, did not deter you from making
some very sound and well thought-out comments.

Thank you for taking the time to do so.

Please continue to contribute to the group.

Hunt

filippo,

I had not read UC comments on regional influence on Chianti. He tries to be
civil but first you have to swear you allegience to Italian wines only and
they he is an OK guy.

Was not really fully aware of all the changes but I am fairly certain that
as the French say "terroir" plays the key role with soil, microclimate etc.

I don't really know much about Italian wines but I try. I spent 20 years
learning about Bordeaux and Burgundy but to be honest am really almost a
novice when compared to others here. Where I live in North Carlolina there
really are not an abundance of choices. Yes I can get a Falesco Merlot
Umbria or the Montiano...also the Antonori wines. But not much beyond that.
Not one retailer had Taurasi Reserva here when checking two weeks ago.

What I find amazing are the tremendous cost differences here in the USA. I
beleive monopolies have been created for the distributors that have
tremendous clout with our politicians. They limit selection, keep pricing
high...we do not really have a free market economy for wine. That is why
our pricing is out of control. That is why many here never really
experience the love of nice wines.

Despite the fact that we have tremendous wealth here, a majority of people
don't have the money to spend more than say $10-$15 a week on wine. I
dispute that one can get good wine here for that..but that is a subjective
argument.

One day, we will bring down the injustice of required 3 tier distribution.

Thanks for your contributions.

dick






"filippo" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Tommasi wrote:
>> filippo wrote:
>>> Mike Tommasi wrote:
>>>> filippo wrote:
>>>>> Do you really think that the relationship to the geographical area
>>>>> is of no great importance? If you really think so, then excuse me
>>>>> but it
>>>>> is now my turn not to give a shit about your advice.
>>>> ci sei cascato, filippo...
>>>
>>> Please, Mike, do note that I did not make any universal statement, here
>>> above, but simply spelled the obvious: I was not discussing about wine,
>>> about the way to approach wine, whether the terroir or anything else
>>> should matter while considering wine. I was simply making a point
>>> concerning the correct denomination of an individual product
>>
>> You are not familiar with UC yet. Most of us would have ignored his
>> comments. He sometimes says interesting things, but most of the time he
>> is just itching for a silly argument that degenerates into "Italian is
>> good, French is an aoofensive word".
>
>
> Fair enough. I am not too familiar with alt.food.wine itself either, but
> to the points being made I generally give all the respect they deserve,
> regardless of the particular merits or demerits of the person or the
> people making them. After all, UC's remarks boil down to the single
> question: "Why the hell should we care about whether Chianti wine
> relates to the Chianti region or not?". And it is a though one. It
> deserves to be answered. I dare saying so, notwithstanding all my being
> a "chiantisan" and a very small vine grower and wine producer, because I
> am perfectly aware that nobody can escape their fate of _having_ to
> answer the question why the world should care about them.
> So, I am particularly eager to make it very clear that I am not making a
> point about how any wine, or even just a single one, should be made, or
> drunk. I am just giving (a) a bit of specific geographical information,
> along with (b) a remark which points out the oddity in the realm of
> wines of a denomination (the "chianti" one), which is neither a generic
> wine definition (it does not identify a style, and if it ever did, it
> was so only in a recent past which is now over, anyway), nor a correct
> origin denomination, nor a mixture of the above. I think it might be of
> general interest for any perspective or actual "chianti" drinker to know
> that the labeling and naming of what they drink is total nonsense.
> It could help them understand some other strange things about Tuscan
> wines, or the strange way they seem to relate to denominations (table
> wines w/ or w/o geographical indication vs vqprd, i.e. doc and docg),
> and how little such bunch of denomination really relate to the French
> ones, despite of their nominal similarity.
>
> In this ng Rick Rubenstein found an interesting sangiovese from Imagery,
> California, "lighter than many tasted Chianti Classico". Rings a bell.
> Among other things, that makes me thinking about how many old sangiovese
> clones might have travelled all their way to California in immigrants'
> packs. Many of them maybe from Chianti as well (the only real Chianti I
> mean: after all that tiny community of three local councils suffered
> unparalleled depopulation rates in the decades 30s-60s, with respect to
> their neighbouring areas, so that this very hypothesis could make some
> sense).
> Shall I tell you all the truth?
> Once Chianti's name has been stolen by that vast part of central Tuscany
> that we all know, and now that we must share even that pacifier-lollypop
> which the "Classico" addendum is, meant to mean "the real one" (they
> knew what they were doing, didn't they?), with a smaller, but definitely
> more determined part of nonChianti Tuscany (more than as much as the
> real Chianti: more than 100% rate of expansion, I call it, to speak of
> the Classico production area alone), once all this happens, as it does,
> and has been for more than half a century now, and "Chianti wine" does
> not mean any more "wine from/of Chianti",
> to me, in my heart as much as in my mouth and nostrils,
> a bottle of that Imagery Sangiovese might even taste, look, smell,
> sound, resonate much more Chiantish than so many blackroostered ones I
> happened to try.
>
> If it cannot be a proper denomination of geographical origin, as it
> ought to be, then be it a proper generic wine naming term! Rather than
> helplessly watching this outrage of wines which NEITHER look/smell/taste
> anywhere near what Chianti wines used to, NOR are they produced in the
> Chianti district (and in some cases they come from as further as nearly
> in sight of the sea, or right under the Appenini mountains, just to give
> an idea), I would feel much more honoured and delighted by seeing our
> beautiful old sangiovese clones spread everywhere, crowling the world
> for nice spots of soil and climate where to play their song! Keeping,
> better yet: carrying!, their name: Chianti!
>
>

I know I've done this before but as a former broker, I worked at all levels.

To import a wine into the US at a minimum you need an importer and approval
of your label & warning label by the US government--most times the importer
submits the label for you after indicating what exactly is needed and in
what font & type size. The importer multiplies the FOB or excellar price &
shipping & US Customers cost by a factor of at least 1.2.
In rare cases like Washington DC-enotecas (stores) have import licenses but
they then multiply costs by 1.5 because their prices still would be less the
other States.

A few States allow an importer to be a wholesaler/distributor if that's the
case the importer raises his prices higher as long as his/her wines are
equal to what the market is charging.

In the rest of the States the importer finds a wholesaler who must register
the wine with the State which may involve submitting another label &
comparing it to the one the US Government approved. The wholesaler charges
their cost including shipping from an importer a nark up of at least 1.3 but
more common 1.4.

The retailers than charge about 1.4 to 1.5 depending on the mark ups of
other stores that's 140-150% rounded up to x.49 0r x.99 cents. Restaurants
charge at least 200% percent of their cost more often 300% of what a
retailer would charge.

The winery is expected to supply 5% in samples and credit a seller for
"returns".

US Customs can inspect any shipment and only items listed on an invoice or
manifest and conform to Government approved labels are allowed in--the
container is held until the matters resolved--generally a custom broker is
involved at the importers choice as is shippers and whether or not the
containers are refrigerated ("reefers" add $4-8 to shipping costs travel
from the East Coast to West another $6
"filippo" > wrote in message
...
> UC wrote:
> > filippo wrote:
>
> >> By the way, I am amazed at the prices that I can read in this thread as
> >> considered to be the minimum threshold of drinkability. ;-) Off my
> >> "cantina" bottles come 5 euros plus relevant VA taxes.. and I never
> >> thought I was putting my would-be-artisan wine in the plonk price range
:-|
> >
> > In most of the US, it is almost impossible to get a 'good' bottle of
> > wine for under $10. Every once in a while there will be special
> > purchases or discontinued items that can be had cheap, but these are of
> > course the exception rather than the rule.
> >
>
> Where do the monies go? Or, alternatively: if the wine started off me at
> 5 euros, how much would the u.s. private customer need to pay, at least?

UC wrote:

> Why? Because I laugh at people who buy Opus One instead of Conterno or
> Gaja or Passopisciaro?

Opus one is a very over priced wine sold to a limited market. However,
in many years in blind tastings it has scored extremely high. It is one
of the select few wines that has scored 100. Find any wine that has
consistently done so well in competitions that is far cheaper. Thats
the problem. When a wine gains high marks in the public eye it's price
goes through the rough. Would I buy it? Hell no. It's over $100 and
there are too many excellent wines far cheaper that provide a much
better value.

UC wrote:
>
> Because I despise buying wine by Wine Spectator ratings (and even the
> concept of 'rating' itself) and the Parkerization of a lot of wine?

I don't buy wines based on ratings either but that doesn't mean that
some ratings do have credibility and are of some use. The problem I
have is that there are too many people that put too much of their
choices on ratings. That drives prices way up for good wines.

A wine thats say rated 90 I may find I like much better than one rated
95. However, rarely do I find a wine rated 80 that I like better than
one rated 98. I don't like Parker ratings either. Wine Spectator isn't
much better. I prefer more localized ratings to a given region.
Various competitions at local events etc.

UC wrote:

> In most of the US, it is almost impossible to get a 'good' bottle of
> wine for under $10.

That is simply not true at all. Personal bias might prevent you from
enjoying some excellent low priced wines.