In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Dutch" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> >> "Ron" > wrote
> >> >> > "Dutch" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> > If people need to blame me for their actions, well, I'm a big boy
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > can handle that. The reality is, of course, that anyone who kills
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > relies on the "they made me do it argument" is just being
> >> >> >> > juvenile
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > passing responsibility for their own actions.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Who makes you place a demand for meat on the meat market?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You do, Dutch.
> >> >>
> >> >> Bad answer.
> >> >>
> >> >> > I'm not responsible for my own actions under your
> >> >> > theoretical constructs.
> >> >>
> >> >> Nope, wrong again.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Someone else _must_ be responsible for my
> >> >> > demand.
> >> >>
> >> >> Nope, it's you.
> >> >>
> >> >> > How could I possibly be responsible for my own actions.
> >> >>
> >> >> How could anyone else?
> >> >
> >> > So how could I be responsible for the farmers actions?
> >>
> >> You're not, you're responsibile for your choice to support him by doing
> >> business with him.
> >
> > I accept that you want me to be responsible, but I'm not. Of course, the
> > childlike position of "i made him do it" doesn't hold much water for me.
>
> Who is forcing you to do business with animal-killing farmers Ronny? Who is
> making you do it? Why are you attempting to avoid responsibility for your
> personal choices?

My choice was to buy tomatoes today. That you've magnified that act into
some deed of evil is more about you than me. I needed some tomatoes
today. I bought the ones that conformed to my needs.

Evil, immoral me. Shoot me now. I bought tomatoes. I'm goin to hell in a
handbasket now. I'm just a heathen tomato eater.

"Ron" > wrote
> "Dutch" > wrote:

[..]
>> Who is forcing you to do business with animal-killing farmers Ronny? Who
>> is
>> making you do it? Why are you attempting to avoid responsibility for your
>> personal choices?
>
> My choice was to buy tomatoes today. That you've magnified that act into
> some deed of evil is more about you than me. I needed some tomatoes
> today. I bought the ones that conformed to my needs.

Indeed, and the animal-killing farmers in Mexico thank you for your
contributions. They'll be clearing and spraying some more land to meet your
insatiable appetite for tomatoes.

> Evil, immoral me. Shoot me now. I bought tomatoes. I'm goin to hell in a
> handbasket now. I'm just a heathen tomato eater.

Nah, I'll hire someone else to it, nothing wrong with that, right?

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote
> > "Dutch" > wrote:
>
> [..]
> >> Who is forcing you to do business with animal-killing farmers Ronny? Who
> >> is
> >> making you do it? Why are you attempting to avoid responsibility for your
> >> personal choices?
> >
> > My choice was to buy tomatoes today. That you've magnified that act into
> > some deed of evil is more about you than me. I needed some tomatoes
> > today. I bought the ones that conformed to my needs.
>
> Indeed, and the animal-killing farmers in Mexico thank you for your
> contributions. They'll be clearing and spraying some more land to meet your
> insatiable appetite for tomatoes.

Let's recap.

I have purchased tomatoes in the past past 2 weeks, three times. Prior
to this, I purchased some in approximately May of 2004. Imagine my
surprise and chagrin to note that farmers still kill animals, use
pesticides, clear land and all of those things when I don't buy their
products. Could it be that they are responsible for their own actions? I
don't control the universe. They will still do what they do independent
of my actions.

> > Evil, immoral me. Shoot me now. I bought tomatoes. I'm goin to hell in a
> > handbasket now. I'm just a heathen tomato eater.
>
> Nah, I'll hire someone else to it, nothing wrong with that, right?

That's right. The person who acts on it is the one I want in prison --
or farming, or both.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Dutch" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote
>> > "Dutch" > wrote:
>>
>> [..]
>> >> Who is forcing you to do business with animal-killing farmers Ronny?
>> >> Who
>> >> is
>> >> making you do it? Why are you attempting to avoid responsibility for
>> >> your
>> >> personal choices?
>> >
>> > My choice was to buy tomatoes today. That you've magnified that act
>> > into
>> > some deed of evil is more about you than me. I needed some tomatoes
>> > today. I bought the ones that conformed to my needs.
>>
>> Indeed, and the animal-killing farmers in Mexico thank you for your
>> contributions. They'll be clearing and spraying some more land to meet
>> your
>> insatiable appetite for tomatoes.
>
> Let's recap.
>
> I have purchased tomatoes in the past past 2 weeks, three times. Prior
> to this, I purchased some in approximately May of 2004. Imagine my
> surprise and chagrin to note that farmers still kill animals, use
> pesticides, clear land and all of those things when I don't buy their
> products. Could it be that they are responsible for their own actions? I
> don't control the universe. They will still do what they do independent
> of my actions.

They are not independent of your actions, in fact they DEPEND on your
demand. The reason nothing changes is that your demand is very small, but
significant in principle.


>> > Evil, immoral me. Shoot me now. I bought tomatoes. I'm goin to hell in
>> > a
>> > handbasket now. I'm just a heathen tomato eater.
>>
>> Nah, I'll hire someone else to it, nothing wrong with that, right?
>
> That's right. The person who acts on it is the one I want in prison --
> or farming, or both.

Farmers in prison huh? Who is going to kill animals on your behalf then?

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Dutch" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron" > wrote
> >> > "Dutch" > wrote:
> >>
> >> [..]
> >> >> Who is forcing you to do business with animal-killing farmers Ronny?
> >> >> Who
> >> >> is
> >> >> making you do it? Why are you attempting to avoid responsibility for
> >> >> your
> >> >> personal choices?
> >> >
> >> > My choice was to buy tomatoes today. That you've magnified that act
> >> > into
> >> > some deed of evil is more about you than me. I needed some tomatoes
> >> > today. I bought the ones that conformed to my needs.
> >>
> >> Indeed, and the animal-killing farmers in Mexico thank you for your
> >> contributions. They'll be clearing and spraying some more land to meet
> >> your
> >> insatiable appetite for tomatoes.
> >
> > Let's recap.
> >
> > I have purchased tomatoes in the past past 2 weeks, three times. Prior
> > to this, I purchased some in approximately May of 2004. Imagine my
> > surprise and chagrin to note that farmers still kill animals, use
> > pesticides, clear land and all of those things when I don't buy their
> > products. Could it be that they are responsible for their own actions? I
> > don't control the universe. They will still do what they do independent
> > of my actions.
>
> They are not independent of your actions, in fact they DEPEND on your
> demand. The reason nothing changes is that your demand is very small, but
> significant in principle.

Now you've changed the argument. They act independent of my action as
was demonstrated.

> >> > Evil, immoral me. Shoot me now. I bought tomatoes. I'm goin to hell in
> >> > a
> >> > handbasket now. I'm just a heathen tomato eater.
> >>
> >> Nah, I'll hire someone else to it, nothing wrong with that, right?
> >
> > That's right. The person who acts on it is the one I want in prison --
> > or farming, or both.
>
> Farmers in prison huh? Who is going to kill animals on your behalf then?

If they were all nicely tucked away, I would give up meat. The community
would be safe.

"Ron" > wrote
> Dutch" >

> > > I have purchased tomatoes in the past past 2 weeks, three times. Prior
> > > to this, I purchased some in approximately May of 2004. Imagine my
> > > surprise and chagrin to note that farmers still kill animals, use
> > > pesticides, clear land and all of those things when I don't buy their
> > > products. Could it be that they are responsible for their own actions?
I
> > > don't control the universe. They will still do what they do
independent
> > > of my actions.
> >
> > They are not independent of your actions, in fact they DEPEND on your
> > demand. The reason nothing changes is that your demand is very small,
but
> > significant in principle.
>
> Now you've changed the argument. They act independent of my action as
> was demonstrated.

No, in theory supply responds 1:1 with fluctuations in demand. In reality
supply does not change unless there is a significant and peristent change.

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote
> > Dutch" >
>
> > > > I have purchased tomatoes in the past past 2 weeks, three times. Prior
> > > > to this, I purchased some in approximately May of 2004. Imagine my
> > > > surprise and chagrin to note that farmers still kill animals, use
> > > > pesticides, clear land and all of those things when I don't buy their
> > > > products. Could it be that they are responsible for their own actions?
> I
> > > > don't control the universe. They will still do what they do
> independent
> > > > of my actions.
> > >
> > > They are not independent of your actions, in fact they DEPEND on your
> > > demand. The reason nothing changes is that your demand is very small,
> but
> > > significant in principle.
> >
> > Now you've changed the argument. They act independent of my action as
> > was demonstrated.
>
> No, in theory supply responds 1:1 with fluctuations in demand. In reality
> supply does not change unless there is a significant and peristent change.

In _theory_. Clearly, if I am and others are able to not buy tomatoes
for periods of months and growers will still do their thing then, the
ratio of 1:1 is false. Frankly, I wasn't interested in changing the
dynamic at this time and for the reasons stated previously. A problem of
theoretical constructions.

"Ron" > wrote
> Dutch" >

> > > I have purchased tomatoes in the past past 2 weeks, three times. Prior
> > > to this, I purchased some in approximately May of 2004. Imagine my
> > > surprise and chagrin to note that farmers still kill animals, use
> > > pesticides, clear land and all of those things when I don't buy their
> > > products. Could it be that they are responsible for their own actions?
I
> > > don't control the universe. They will still do what they do
independent
> > > of my actions.
> >
> > They are not independent of your actions, in fact they DEPEND on your
> > demand. The reason nothing changes is that your demand is very small,
but
> > significant in principle.
>
> Now you've changed the argument. They act independent of my action as
> was demonstrated.

No, in theory supply responds 1:1 with fluctuations in demand. In reality
supply does not change unless there is a significant and peristent change.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Dutch" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" > wrote
>> > "Dutch" > wrote:
>>
>> [..]
>> >> Who is forcing you to do business with animal-killing farmers Ronny?
>> >> Who
>> >> is
>> >> making you do it? Why are you attempting to avoid responsibility for
>> >> your
>> >> personal choices?
>> >
>> > My choice was to buy tomatoes today. That you've magnified that act
>> > into
>> > some deed of evil is more about you than me. I needed some tomatoes
>> > today. I bought the ones that conformed to my needs.
>>
>> Indeed, and the animal-killing farmers in Mexico thank you for your
>> contributions. They'll be clearing and spraying some more land to meet
>> your
>> insatiable appetite for tomatoes.
>
> Let's recap.
>
> I have purchased tomatoes in the past past 2 weeks, three times. Prior
> to this, I purchased some in approximately May of 2004. Imagine my
> surprise and chagrin to note that farmers still kill animals, use
> pesticides, clear land and all of those things when I don't buy their
> products. Could it be that they are responsible for their own actions? I
> don't control the universe. They will still do what they do independent
> of my actions.

They are not independent of your actions, in fact they DEPEND on your
demand. The reason nothing changes is that your demand is very small, but
significant in principle.


>> > Evil, immoral me. Shoot me now. I bought tomatoes. I'm goin to hell in
>> > a
>> > handbasket now. I'm just a heathen tomato eater.
>>
>> Nah, I'll hire someone else to it, nothing wrong with that, right?
>
> That's right. The person who acts on it is the one I want in prison --
> or farming, or both.

Farmers in prison huh? Who is going to kill animals on your behalf then?

In article >, "Dutch" >
wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote
> > "Dutch" > wrote:
>
> [..]
> >> Who is forcing you to do business with animal-killing farmers Ronny? Who
> >> is
> >> making you do it? Why are you attempting to avoid responsibility for your
> >> personal choices?
> >
> > My choice was to buy tomatoes today. That you've magnified that act into
> > some deed of evil is more about you than me. I needed some tomatoes
> > today. I bought the ones that conformed to my needs.
>
> Indeed, and the animal-killing farmers in Mexico thank you for your
> contributions. They'll be clearing and spraying some more land to meet your
> insatiable appetite for tomatoes.

Let's recap.

I have purchased tomatoes in the past past 2 weeks, three times. Prior
to this, I purchased some in approximately May of 2004. Imagine my
surprise and chagrin to note that farmers still kill animals, use
pesticides, clear land and all of those things when I don't buy their
products. Could it be that they are responsible for their own actions? I
don't control the universe. They will still do what they do independent
of my actions.

> > Evil, immoral me. Shoot me now. I bought tomatoes. I'm goin to hell in a
> > handbasket now. I'm just a heathen tomato eater.
>
> Nah, I'll hire someone else to it, nothing wrong with that, right?

That's right. The person who acts on it is the one I want in prison --
or farming, or both.

"Ron" > wrote
> "Dutch" > wrote:

[..]
>> Who is forcing you to do business with animal-killing farmers Ronny? Who
>> is
>> making you do it? Why are you attempting to avoid responsibility for your
>> personal choices?
>
> My choice was to buy tomatoes today. That you've magnified that act into
> some deed of evil is more about you than me. I needed some tomatoes
> today. I bought the ones that conformed to my needs.

Indeed, and the animal-killing farmers in Mexico thank you for your
contributions. They'll be clearing and spraying some more land to meet your
insatiable appetite for tomatoes.

> Evil, immoral me. Shoot me now. I bought tomatoes. I'm goin to hell in a
> handbasket now. I'm just a heathen tomato eater.

Nah, I'll hire someone else to it, nothing wrong with that, right?