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Old 04-03-2008, 05:42 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Pete's minion or maybe it's the asshole Pete herself
blabbered:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:02:34 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Pete's minion or maybe it's the asshole Pete herself blabbered:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:26:40 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Pete's minion or maybe it's the asshole Pete herself blabbered:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Pete's minion or maybe it's the asshole Pete herself blabbered:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?
No. We have a choice?
Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But
if "vegans" suppress animal husbandry, there won't be
any manure.
Horse shit!!! is around in abundance.

There wouldn't be any horses if "vegans" were to
succeed in imposing their benighted regime on the rest
of us.


There will always be horses and other livestock.


Not if benighted fascistic "vegan" get their way.


In fact the world cannot give
it away these days, more than enough to go round. Then we have seaweed
etc

Requires more energy to harvest, transport and convert
into fertilizer than is put back into the soil.


That's life Jonny.


That's inefficiency, ****.


In fact we could always go back to what farming is really about.
Farming and working with nature!

Farming is about farming - nice little tautology.

Farming is about people producing food to feed
themselves - the foods they want to eat, not the foods
some repressive self-styled "visionaries" think they
"ought" to be eating.


Farming is about a sustainable future for us and the planet.


No, it isn't. I correctly defined farming, ****: it's
about growing the foods people want to eat, not the
foods some bloated-ego **** like you thinks they ought
to eat.


Stop twisting it to suit you weird anti began agenda.


"began"? Anyway, "veganism" is the weird agenda. It's
100% misanthropic.

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Old 04-03-2008, 05:42 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:34:52 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:

There will always be horses and other livestock. They just wont have
to endure the suffering to feed fat faces like yours.


There might be horses, but there would be little else.
You do not breed if you do not cull.


We'll have plenty of livestock for the next fifty years even if
livestock farming was stopped.

Otherwise the country would be overpopulated with starving sheep.


The farmers wont let them breed.

[we have already managed to do that to our deer population]


No we haven't. We have managed to artificially boost many wildlife
especially deer by the constant slaughtering of them. This causes them
to breed at maximum rates and constantly. It throws the whole natural
cycle out of synch. You might think we have a deer problem but I can
assure you the shooters don't!
  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 05:43 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Rudy Canoza wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?


No. We have a choice?


Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But if "vegans"
suppress animal husbandry, there won't be any manure. Kind of a
paradox, eh?


And for those who claim to care about the animals, it seems callous to
want to slaughter all the livestock so that you can turn pasture over
to growing crops humans can eat.

Or were they planning to just let them just starve to death on the
land that was left?


--
Jette Goldie

http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 05:44 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Jim Webster wrote:
"Jill" wrote in message
...
Julie wrote:
Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot give
it away these days, more than enough to go round.

With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the insect
life in the soil.
Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk low
quality item around the country.


interesting that pete advocates keeping equines as pets.


Took me a while to spot his grubby fingerprints all
over "Julie's" posts.


The one problem with them is that actually their muck only fertilises the
areas they are in. If you haul their muck away, then you have to find
something to replemish the fertility of the area they are grazing

Then we have seaweed

So you are advocating stripping and decimating our marine environment to
produce food for too many people, let alone the colossal transportation
problems and its effect on any carbon footprint.

etc In fact we could always go back to what farming is really about.
Farming and working with nature!


good old fashioned organic rotation, alternating livestock and cropping

Ahhh that is your method of population control :-- starvation and disease.
I know there had to be some logic somewhere.


The interesting bit is what we use in the UK when we can no longer out bid
the Chinese for soya. Ironically they seem happy to pay more to use it for
animal feed than we are to use it for human consumption

Jim Webster


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Old 04-03-2008, 05:46 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Jette wrote:
Rudy Canoza wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?

No. We have a choice?


Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But if "vegans"
suppress animal husbandry, there won't be any manure. Kind of a
paradox, eh?


And for those who claim to care about the animals, it seems callous to
want to slaughter all the livestock so that you can turn pasture over to
growing crops humans can eat.


Well, we're going to slaughter the livestock anyway, so
that's not really an issue. The big thing for
"vegans"/"aras" is that they don't want any *more*
livestock to exist.

"vegans"/"aras" don't really care about animals, and
they admit it. It's really only their own egos they
care about.



Or were they planning to just let them just starve to death on the land
that was left?




  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 05:46 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:36:39 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"Jill" wrote in message
...
Julie wrote:

Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot give
it away these days, more than enough to go round.


With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the insect
life in the soil.
Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk low
quality item around the country.


interesting that pete


No such person.

advocates keeping equines as pets.


Most people love animals and that will never change. I personally
would love two of every creature (at least) and cows, horses, sheep,
goats, pigs make lovely pets as any dumb dog.

The one problem with them is that actually their muck only fertilises the
areas they are in. If you haul their muck away, then you have to find
something to replemish the fertility of the area they are grazing


No wonder you have such great trouble fitting in to a farming
community. You're clueless!

snip spoiled brat


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Old 04-03-2008, 05:48 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:38:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"Jill" wrote in message
...
Julie wrote:

There will always be horses and other livestock. They just wont have
to endure the suffering to feed fat faces like yours.


There might be horses, but there would be little else.
You do not breed if you do not cull.
Otherwise the country would be overpopulated with starving sheep.
[we have already managed to do that to our deer population]


oh goodie, so we have all this land being used to feed livestock that
doesn't actually contribute to human nutrition. Effectively using livestock
as a green manure, meaning that you only get a food crop from it perhaps
three years in ten
Far less efficient that what we do now when at least we eat the livestock
Jim Webster


It's quite painful to see the village idiots playing on their own..

Which one are you. Judy?


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Old 04-03-2008, 05:50 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:43:46 GMT, Jette
wrote:

Rudy Canoza wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?

No. We have a choice?


Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But if "vegans"
suppress animal husbandry, there won't be any manure. Kind of a
paradox, eh?


And for those who claim to care about the animals, it seems callous to
want to slaughter all the livestock so that you can turn pasture over
to growing crops humans can eat.
Or were they planning to just let them just starve to death on the
land that was left?


You just let them live their lives out and start afresh when that's
done. Easy really, but that's why we need to act now.

  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 05:51 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:46:20 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Jette wrote:
Rudy Canoza wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?

No. We have a choice?

Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But if "vegans"
suppress animal husbandry, there won't be any manure. Kind of a
paradox, eh?


And for those who claim to care about the animals, it seems callous to
want to slaughter all the livestock so that you can turn pasture over to
growing crops humans can eat.


Well, we're going to slaughter the livestock anyway, so
that's not really an issue. The big thing for
"vegans"/"aras" is that they don't want any *more*
livestock to exist.


I don't think there's any room for you in this matinee jonny, we
already have Punch & Judy!
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Old 04-03-2008, 05:53 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:36:39 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:

"Jill" wrote in message
...
Julie wrote:
Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot give
it away these days, more than enough to go round.
With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the insect
life in the soil.
Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk low
quality item around the country.

interesting that pete


No such person.


Sure thing, pete.



advocates keeping equines as pets.


Most people love animals and that will never change. I personally
would love two of every creature (at least) and cows, horses, sheep,
goats, pigs make lovely pets as any dumb dog.


Then you're no "ara", and probably not even "vegan".

You're just a shitbag, pete.


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Old 04-03-2008, 05:54 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:30:40 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:

Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot
give it away these days, more than enough to go round.


With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the
insect life in the soil.


Really where does it say that?


Do you not know about this?
I am surprised.


Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk
low quality item around the country.


Try and keep up Jill.


I am keeping up, you seem to have not researched your subject and have no
answers for simple straight forward questions.

snip trolling


Not trolling, simply endeavouring to find out how you propose to support
your new ecosystem, only to find you have no answers.


If you cant be sensible about it get lost.


Why, because you are shown to not understand some basic ecology and
logistics?

I am interested to hear how you make your system work, how you sustain food
productivity for all the people now and the growing population in the future
using the circumstances we are in NOW, not those of a time when the common
rural way of life involved subsistance living and no Ipods.
At the same time reducing the carbon footprint, creating a sustainable rural
economy and protecting the land we need to feed ourselves with.

--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk


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Old 04-03-2008, 05:54 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:46:20 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Jette wrote:
Rudy Canoza wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?
No. We have a choice?
Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But if "vegans"
suppress animal husbandry, there won't be any manure. Kind of a
paradox, eh?
And for those who claim to care about the animals, it seems callous to
want to slaughter all the livestock so that you can turn pasture over to
growing crops humans can eat.

Well, we're going to slaughter the livestock anyway, so
that's not really an issue. The big thing for
"vegans"/"aras" is that they don't want any *more*
livestock to exist.


I don't think there's any room for you in this matinee jonny,


I'm here, pete, and you'll take it and you'll like it.
Simple.
  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 05:56 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Jill wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:30:40 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot
give it away these days, more than enough to go round.
With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the
insect life in the soil.

Really where does it say that?


Do you not know about this?
I am surprised.


I'm not. pete the troll really doesn't know about much
of anything.


Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk
low quality item around the country.

Try and keep up Jill.


I am keeping up, you seem to have not researched your subject and have no
answers for simple straight forward questions.


pete the troll never has answers.


snip trolling


Not trolling, simply endeavouring to find out how you propose to support
your new ecosystem, only to find you have no answers.

If you cant be sensible about it get lost.


Why, because you are shown to not understand some basic ecology and
logistics?

I am interested to hear how you make your system work, how you sustain food
productivity for all the people now and the growing population in the future
using the circumstances we are in NOW, not those of a time when the common
rural way of life involved subsistance living and no Ipods.
At the same time reducing the carbon footprint, creating a sustainable rural
economy and protecting the land we need to feed ourselves with.

  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 05:57 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate


"Jette" wrote in message
...
Rudy Canoza wrote:
On Mar 3, 4:00 pm, Buxqi wrote:
On Mar 3, 3:53 pm, Rudy Canoza wrote:

The "vegan" pseudo-argument on "inefficiency" is that
the resources used to produce a given amount of meat
could produce a much greater amount of vegetable food
for direct human consumption, due to the loss of energy
that results from feeding grain and other feeds to
livestock.
Yes. A vegan diet will generally have a smaller ecological
footprint than a meat based one.


Not necessarily. But that isn't really their argument about
efficiency. They're talking about resource use, not environmental
degradation.


There's also the point that some animals - goats, sheep, etc., can live on
land where it wouldn't be possible to grow much that is edible by humans.
You can't grow wheat, or even soy, on high boggy moorland in the
semi-Arctic moorlands of Scotland. Sheep and deer, OTOH, thrive on the
food available to them there.


yes, and actually if you follow pre-modern 'folding' techniques where you
bring the animals down from the fell overnight to milk them, then they build
up the fertility of your crop ground around the steading, while being
sparsely stocked and not having a major effect on the ground they graze on

Jim Webster


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Old 04-03-2008, 05:58 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,talk.politics.animals,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Jette wrote:


There's also the point that some animals - goats, sheep, etc., can
live on land where it wouldn't be possible to grow much that is edible
by humans. You can't grow wheat, or even soy, on high boggy moorland
in the semi-Arctic moorlands of Scotland. Sheep and deer, OTOH,
thrive on the food available to them there.


They subsist, not thrive.

To thrive they need to come down to good pastures.
Man has taken sheep over to the eastern pastures for many centuries as he
recognised this gave a better carcase.

--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk




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