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  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:01 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:34:52 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:

There will always be horses and other livestock. They just wont have
to endure the suffering to feed fat faces like yours.


There might be horses, but there would be little else.
You do not breed if you do not cull.


We'll have plenty of livestock for the next fifty years even if
livestock farming was stopped.


If livestock farming was stopped then the livestock would end. Then.
No-one would feed livestock for no reason.


Otherwise the country would be overpopulated with starving sheep.


The farmers wont let them breed.


The farmers would not keep them.


[we have already managed to do that to our deer population]


No we haven't. We have managed to artificially boost many wildlife
especially deer by the constant slaughtering of them. This causes them
to breed at maximum rates and constantly. It throws the whole natural
cycle out of synch. You might think we have a deer problem but I can
assure you the shooters don't!


I suggest some reading into the subject.

--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk



  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:14 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:43:46 GMT, Jette
wrote:

Rudy Canoza wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?
No. We have a choice?
Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But if "vegans"
suppress animal husbandry, there won't be any manure. Kind of a
paradox, eh?

And for those who claim to care about the animals, it seems callous to
want to slaughter all the livestock so that you can turn pasture over
to growing crops humans can eat.
Or were they planning to just let them just starve to death on the
land that was left?


You just let them live their lives out and start afresh when that's
done. Easy really, but that's why we need to act now.


NOT going to happen. You'd want to turn the land over to growing
crops ASAP. Meanwhile you'd have to make sure those animals were fed
and cared for and housed.

Where?



--
Jette Goldie

http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
  #63 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:29 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:44:54 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Jim Webster wrote:
"Jill" wrote in message
...
Julie wrote:
Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot give
it away these days, more than enough to go round.
With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the insect
life in the soil.
Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk low
quality item around the country.


interesting that pete advocates keeping equines as pets.


Took me a while to spot his grubby fingerprints


Don't be taken in by Jim he is pete the troll and has no interest in
farming.


  #64 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:30 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:53:30 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:36:39 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:

"Jill" wrote in message
...
Julie wrote:
Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot give
it away these days, more than enough to go round.
With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the insect
life in the soil.
Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk low
quality item around the country.

interesting that pete


No such person.


Sure thing, pete.



advocates keeping equines as pets.


Most people love animals and that will never change. I personally
would love two of every creature (at least) and cows, horses, sheep,
goats, pigs make lovely pets as any dumb dog.


Then you're no "ara", and probably not even "vegan".

You're just a shitbag, pete.


Great argument Jonny.
  #65 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:36 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:54:00 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:30:40 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:

Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot
give it away these days, more than enough to go round.

With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the
insect life in the soil.


Really where does it say that?


Do you not know about this?
I am surprised.


How long will you be stalling for?

Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk
low quality item around the country.


Try and keep up Jill.


I am keeping up, you seem to have not researched your subject and have no
answers for simple straight forward questions.


They are not questions they are nonsense obstacles proving you are
just a troll.

snip trolling


Not trolling, simply endeavouring to find out how you propose to support
your new ecosystem, only to find you have no answers.


You are trolling and it's quite blatant a diversionary tactic to take
us away from the unsustainability of meat production in the modern
world. Which if we don't change quickly will not last much longer.

You can play chase your tail or punch & judy with Jim. When you are
ready for serious discussion come back.

If you cant be sensible about it get lost.


Why, because you are shown to not understand some basic ecology and
logistics?


I am interested to hear how you make your system work, how you sustain food
productivity for all the people now and the growing population in the future
using the circumstances we are in NOW, not those of a time when the common
rural way of life involved subsistance living and no Ipods.
At the same time reducing the carbon footprint, creating a sustainable rural
economy and protecting the land we need to feed ourselves with.


You've already been told and shown easily viable alternatives which
we, the planet will need to adopt if we are to save ourselves for
anything like a decent future. You have no comprehension of what's
involved so I suppose breeding a couple of fluffy chickens doesn't a
farmer make!




  #66 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:37 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:54:14 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:46:20 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Jette wrote:
Rudy Canoza wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?
No. We have a choice?
Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But if "vegans"
suppress animal husbandry, there won't be any manure. Kind of a
paradox, eh?
And for those who claim to care about the animals, it seems callous to
want to slaughter all the livestock so that you can turn pasture over to
growing crops humans can eat.
Well, we're going to slaughter the livestock anyway, so
that's not really an issue. The big thing for
"vegans"/"aras" is that they don't want any *more*
livestock to exist.


I don't think there's any room for you in this matinee jonny,


I'm here,


No Jonny you're not. You're like a bad smell, a waft of something we
cant put our finger on!


  #67 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:39 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:01:29 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:34:52 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:

There will always be horses and other livestock. They just wont have
to endure the suffering to feed fat faces like yours.

There might be horses, but there would be little else.
You do not breed if you do not cull.


We'll have plenty of livestock for the next fifty years even if
livestock farming was stopped.


If livestock farming was stopped then the livestock would end. Then.
No-one would feed livestock for no reason.


Yes we, society would. You are obviously so far removed it's painful.

Otherwise the country would be overpopulated with starving sheep.


The farmers wont let them breed.


The farmers would not keep them.


Nothing new there then!

[we have already managed to do that to our deer population]


No we haven't. We have managed to artificially boost many wildlife
especially deer by the constant slaughtering of them. This causes them
to breed at maximum rates and constantly. It throws the whole natural
cycle out of synch. You might think we have a deer problem but I can
assure you the shooters don't!


I suggest some reading into the subject.


Great idea when will you start?


  #68 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:40 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:14:30 GMT, Jette
wrote:

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:43:46 GMT, Jette
wrote:

Rudy Canoza wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?
No. We have a choice?
Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But if "vegans"
suppress animal husbandry, there won't be any manure. Kind of a
paradox, eh?
And for those who claim to care about the animals, it seems callous to
want to slaughter all the livestock so that you can turn pasture over
to growing crops humans can eat.
Or were they planning to just let them just starve to death on the
land that was left?


You just let them live their lives out and start afresh when that's
done. Easy really, but that's why we need to act now.


NOT going to happen. You'd want to turn the land over to growing
crops ASAP. Meanwhile you'd have to make sure those animals were fed
and cared for and housed.

Where?


Grazing animals need grazing land not crops.
  #69 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:52 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Posts: 23
Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:


I am keeping up, you seem to have not researched your subject and
have no answers for simple straight forward questions.


They are not questions they are nonsense obstacles proving you are
just a troll.


But they are not, they are extremely serious issues that have to be
addressed before anyone will take such a drastic change in direction
seriously.
If you cannot answer simple queries about the basics of fertility, ecology
and logistics without turning to abuse because you have nothing to
contribute, you cannot ever expect anyone to believe the system is robust
enough to work. Therefore its a non starter.
So far, its been shown that your proposals are unsustainable at the most
elemental level, but if there is more that you can offer to change this it
would be interesting to hear.


snip trolling


Not trolling, simply endeavouring to find out how you propose to
support your new ecosystem, only to find you have no answers.


You are trolling and it's quite blatant a diversionary tactic to take
us away from the unsustainability of meat production in the modern
world.


Not at all, I am interested in your alternatives.
Jumping up and down saying something is wrong is to no effect unless you can
offer a viable alternative.


You can play chase your tail or punch & judy with Jim. When you are
ready for serious discussion come back.


I am trying to get a serious discussion with you but you are evading at
every turn and then turn abusive and childish.


If you cant be sensible about it get lost.


Why, because you are shown to not understand some basic ecology and
logistics?


I am interested to hear how you make your system work, how you
sustain food productivity for all the people now and the growing
population in the future using the circumstances we are in NOW, not
those of a time when the common rural way of life involved
subsistance living and no Ipods.
At the same time reducing the carbon footprint, creating a
sustainable rural economy and protecting the land we need to feed
ourselves with.


You've already been told and shown easily viable alternatives


But they are not viable in the 21st century UK situation.

which
we, the planet will need to adopt if we are to save ourselves for
anything like a decent future. You have no comprehension of what's
involved so I suppose breeding a couple of fluffy chickens doesn't a
farmer make!


I have a strong idea what is involved, coupled with a hefty dose of reality.
So far you have given fluffy ideals but nothing that is a robust strategy to
put food on the tables of the populace for the next 100 years.

--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk


  #70 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:58 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:

If livestock farming was stopped then the livestock would end. Then.
No-one would feed livestock for no reason.


Yes we, society would.


But society is not prepared to pay for that, they are not prepared to pay
for what is needed to protect the countryside now, feeding some ancient
sheep is just not going to happen.


Otherwise the country would be overpopulated with starving sheep.

The farmers wont let them breed.


The farmers would not keep them.


Nothing new there then!


That answer does not answer the problem. There would be none to breed.


[we have already managed to do that to our deer population]

No we haven't. We have managed to artificially boost many wildlife
especially deer by the constant slaughtering of them. This causes
them to breed at maximum rates and constantly. It throws the whole
natural cycle out of synch. You might think we have a deer problem
but I can assure you the shooters don't!


I suggest some reading into the subject.


Great idea when will you start?


Been there, done that, and studied with some of the best in the country.

--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk




  #71 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:59 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:44:54 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Jim Webster wrote:
"Jill" wrote in message
...
Julie wrote:
Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot give
it away these days, more than enough to go round.
With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the insect
life in the soil.
Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk low
quality item around the country.

interesting that pete advocates keeping equines as pets.

Took me a while to spot his grubby fingerprints


Don't be taken in by Jim he is pete the troll


You're pete the shitbag troll, ****.
  #72 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:59 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:

Grazing animals need grazing land not crops.


Where are you going to find this grazing land when every inch is going to be
needed for crops however unviable, and how are you going to collect and
transport their "input" to the crop land?

--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk


  #73 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:59 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

pete the **** lied:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:53:30 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:36:39 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:

"Jill" wrote in message
...
Julie wrote:
Horse shit!!! is around in abundance. In fact the world cannot give
it away these days, more than enough to go round.
With plenty of wormers and other substances in which would kill the insect
life in the soil.
Clever one
There are also not enough equines in the right places so you would be
increasing your carbon footprint drastically moving this high bulk low
quality item around the country.

interesting that pete
No such person.

Sure thing, pete.


advocates keeping equines as pets.
Most people love animals and that will never change. I personally
would love two of every creature (at least) and cows, horses, sheep,
goats, pigs make lovely pets as any dumb dog.

Then you're no "ara", and probably not even "vegan".

You're just a shitbag, pete.


Great argument Jonny.


It's good enough, shitbag - you don't have any.
  #74 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:00 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:54:14 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Julie wrote:
On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:46:20 -0800, Rudy Canoza
wrote:

Jette wrote:
Rudy Canoza wrote:
Julie wrote:
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:02:13 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:
No Jim that's a blatant lie. When was the last time anyone saw
livestock grazing on a well managed arable farm?

So you agree with all artificial inputs to replenish the land?
No. We have a choice?
Organic farming virtually requires animal manure. But if "vegans"
suppress animal husbandry, there won't be any manure. Kind of a
paradox, eh?
And for those who claim to care about the animals, it seems callous to
want to slaughter all the livestock so that you can turn pasture over to
growing crops humans can eat.
Well, we're going to slaughter the livestock anyway, so
that's not really an issue. The big thing for
"vegans"/"aras" is that they don't want any *more*
livestock to exist.
I don't think there's any room for you in this matinee jonny,

I'm here, pete, and you'll take it and you'll like it.


No Jonny you're not.


Yes, shitbag pete, I am - and you'll take it and you'll
like it.
  #75 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:18 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,uk.environment.conservation,uk.business.agriculture
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Default The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 18:59:29 -0000, "Jill"
wrote:

Julie wrote:

Grazing animals need grazing land not crops.


Where are you going to find this grazing land when every inch is going to be
needed for crops


Don't be silly Jill.


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