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cc wrote: > > So, I think your idea of discipline and following strict rules is false, or > at least very exagerated. But I get where you've seen that. Samurai fictions > are to Japan what Westerns are to the U.S. I'm glad someone finally brought this up. The whole spirit of cha-no-yu is the in the avoidance of strict, complicated ritual. "Harmony", "reverence", "purity", and "tranquility" -- these are the guiding principles. --crymad |
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> Sorry, but it seems to me that strict avoidance of rules results in chaos, > which is not conducive to harmony, reverence, purity or tranquility. Am I > missing something? (Seriously asking this question. I've gone off-track > before, and if I have done it again I would honestly appreciate having > that > fact pointed out so I don't continue in an off-track direction.) > > Dave Dave, Following rules is always an act of self-limitation. Following the rules that are imposed on you is obedience, i.e. forced self-limitation. Following the rules because you deeply understand their meanings and embrace the ritual and its rules as something that reinforce your system of values is voluntary, eager self-limitation, the act of disciplined mind, the ultimate individualism. The knights of the Round Table would understand that better than our generation for whom the individualism was wrongly translated as never-ending childish "I wanna". So, our poets are few, our music lacks depth, our friendships are cold and our passion has to be jump-started with blue pills. We make shows of our weddings and we do not wail at our funerals. We imprison our elderly into the expensive houses of cold, lone death and we do not want to think what is it our children will do to us. We dress casual and that lead to casual thought, casual feelings, casual love and casual honor. Real honor cannot be casual. Real love cannot be based on "I wanna". And real poetry requires rhythm and rhyme. And it all requires self-limitation, i.e. self-discipline. And I am as guilty as anyone. And I an not happy about it. Sasha. |
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> Sorry, but it seems to me that strict avoidance of rules results in chaos, > which is not conducive to harmony, reverence, purity or tranquility. Am I > missing something? (Seriously asking this question. I've gone off-track > before, and if I have done it again I would honestly appreciate having > that > fact pointed out so I don't continue in an off-track direction.) > > Dave Dave, Following rules is always an act of self-limitation. Following the rules that are imposed on you is obedience, i.e. forced self-limitation. Following the rules because you deeply understand their meanings and embrace the ritual and its rules as something that reinforce your system of values is voluntary, eager self-limitation, the act of disciplined mind, the ultimate individualism. The knights of the Round Table would understand that better than our generation for whom the individualism was wrongly translated as never-ending childish "I wanna". So, our poets are few, our music lacks depth, our friendships are cold and our passion has to be jump-started with blue pills. We make shows of our weddings and we do not wail at our funerals. We imprison our elderly into the expensive houses of cold, lone death and we do not want to think what is it our children will do to us. We dress casual and that lead to casual thought, casual feelings, casual love and casual honor. Real honor cannot be casual. Real love cannot be based on "I wanna". And real poetry requires rhythm and rhyme. And it all requires self-limitation, i.e. self-discipline. And I am as guilty as anyone. And I an not happy about it. Sasha. |
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Dave wrote: > > "crymad" > wrote in message > ... > > > > > > cc wrote: > > > > > > > > So, I think your idea of discipline and following strict rules is false, > or > > > at least very exagerated. But I get where you've seen that. Samurai > fictions > > > are to Japan what Westerns are to the U.S. > > > > I'm glad someone finally brought this up. The whole spirit of cha-no-yu > > is the in the avoidance of strict, complicated ritual. "Harmony", > > "reverence", "purity", and "tranquility" -- these are the guiding > > principles. > > > > --crymad > > I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from on this point. Harmony > comes from working together, does it not? And strict rules (and following > them like a religion is to some people) would not result in this type of > harmony? That, at least, is what I intend to play on in the story I am > writing. An arrogant rule-breaker is made to adjust his attitude, at least > on the outside, in order to remain essentially free from a type of > punishment. It appears you're trying to mold tea ceremony into a metaphor for the virtues of discipline and obedience. If so, then this effort is sadly misguided. Enjoying tea with guests in quiet, humble surroundings bears little resemblance to rifle inspection at boot camp with failings punishable by givin'em twenty. > Sorry, but it seems to me that strict avoidance of rules results in chaos, > which is not conducive to harmony, reverence, purity or tranquility. Am I > missing something? In your fixation on rules, yes, you are missing something. You must realize that the aesthetics of imperfection and insufficiency are at the heart of cha-no-yu. Learn more on the subject, and you'll certainly discover this. --crymad |
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Dave,
If I were you I would not pay much attention at crymad's posts. If you read his posts you will see that very few if any of his posts are informative, rather his posts are all argumentative. There is no constructive element there. Direct questions turn him away, as you can see looking at my recent direct questions to him in the "Cha that's not tea" thread. I love aggressive arguing, but there has to be certain level of knowledge behind it. Arguing for the sake of arguing belongs in alt.politics or alt.culture. That's all they do. Sasha. "Dave" > wrote in message ... > > "crymad" > wrote in message > ... >> >> >> cc wrote: >> >> > >> > So, I think your idea of discipline and following strict rules is >> > false, > or >> > at least very exagerated. But I get where you've seen that. Samurai > fictions >> > are to Japan what Westerns are to the U.S. >> >> I'm glad someone finally brought this up. The whole spirit of cha-no-yu >> is the in the avoidance of strict, complicated ritual. "Harmony", >> "reverence", "purity", and "tranquility" -- these are the guiding >> principles. >> >> --crymad > > I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from on this point. > Harmony > comes from working together, does it not? And strict rules (and following > them like a religion is to some people) would not result in this type of > harmony? That, at least, is what I intend to play on in the story I am > writing. An arrogant rule-breaker is made to adjust his attitude, at > least > on the outside, in order to remain essentially free from a type of > punishment. > > Sorry, but it seems to me that strict avoidance of rules results in chaos, > which is not conducive to harmony, reverence, purity or tranquility. Am I > missing something? (Seriously asking this question. I've gone off-track > before, and if I have done it again I would honestly appreciate having > that > fact pointed out so I don't continue in an off-track direction.) > > Dave > > > |
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"Alex Chaihorsky" > writes:
> Following rules is always an act of self-limitation. That's a bit harsh. It's the passing of time which is `limiting'. You only have a moment to decide what to do with that moment, and then the opportunity is gone. Rule-following is one way of making that decision, not the origin of the limitation. <snip!> > And I am as guilty as anyone. And I an not happy about it. Quit complaining. Time's passing.   Cheers, - Joel |
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There is so much I can say here, but I will yield to higher authority.
I will answer you with the Talmudic quote that appears to be written just for this exchange: "Do not think that time is passing, time is standing, we pass." My Talmudic library is upstairs and I feel lazy today. But if you need, I will dig it up. Sasha. "Joel Reicher" > wrote in message ... > "Alex Chaihorsky" > writes: > >> Following rules is always an act of self-limitation. > > That's a bit harsh. It's the passing of time which is `limiting'. You > only have a moment to decide what to do with that moment, and then the > opportunity is gone. Rule-following is one way of making that > decision, not the origin of the limitation. > > <snip!> >> And I am as guilty as anyone. And I an not happy about it. > > Quit complaining. Time's passing. > > Cheers, > > - Joel |
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"Alex Chaihorsky" > writes:
> There is so much I can say here, but I will yield to higher authority. > I will answer you with the Talmudic quote that appears to be written just > for this exchange: > > "Do not think that time is passing, time is standing, we pass." > My Talmudic library is upstairs and I feel lazy today. But if you need, I > will dig it up. It'd be illuminating to have the context. Put starkly like that it sounds more like Zohar than Talmud. It's not that important though. Cheers, - Joel |
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"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > I was introduced to the O-tya Do in 1980 by former Japanese prisoners of war > in East Siberia .... > in the eyes and movements > of old, defeated samurai Well, nice try. But, your scenario has too many incoherences. You've forgotten that defeated samurai are either dead while fighting or suicided. I suggest you start the story with : "I was introduced to the O-tya Do by the *ghosts* of former Japanese prisoners of war. An East-Siberian shaman allowed one of those wandering soul to borrow his body for the time of a Tea Ceremony....". Kuri |
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"cc" > wrote in message ... > > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > > > I was introduced to the O-tya Do in 1980 by former Japanese prisoners of > war > > in East Siberia > ... > > in the eyes and movements > > of old, defeated samurai > > Well, nice try. But, your scenario has too many incoherences. You've > forgotten that defeated samurai are either dead while fighting or suicided. > I suggest you start the story with : "I was introduced to the O-tya Do by > the *ghosts* of former Japanese prisoners of war. An East-Siberian shaman > allowed one of those wandering soul to borrow his body for the time of a Tea > Ceremony....". > > Kuri Actually- there were defeated samurai who didn't kille themselves. All the Kamikazes didn't commit suicide either. Just like all the old non-reformed Nazis and Junkers didn't commit suicide. > > > > |
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You are entitled to your onion and by questioning my honor you actually
harms yours, since you do it from the convenience of anonymity Russia after the WW2 had tens of thousands of Japanese prisoners of war mainly from Kwantun Army. I have never heard of anyone questioning their honor neither on Russian or Japanese side. Actually many accounts of exceptionally honorable behavior of Japanese POWs in Russia exist in the books of Russian political prisoners who shared labor camps with them. The Japanese POWs were the only group that never succumbed to the organized crime pressure in Russian prisons. There is a memoir about a hero Russian WW2 pilot, who was thrown into the labor camp after the war and described how honored he was to fight with Japanese POWs against Russian criminals in the camps. But of course, he is just a Russki boychik, what does he know? I am not a specialist in Bushido and would never feel that I know enough to voice my opinion. But as someone who have been in an Army and has been trained for 5 years as an officer (all Soviet colleges had that program, obligatory to all men), I will only say the following: no military system in the world would ever demand that the defeated forces commit suicide outside of battlefield. The demand to fight to the end and commit suicide rather than to give up on the battlefield is one thing. But making it obligatory to commit suicide after the battle is over will lead to the situation when if an army suffered a minor defeat, it will lead to extermination of the whole army. So, the minor tactical loss will become a devastated all-out defeat, giving an enemy a free strategic victory. This is laughable. The medieval Japan was a theatre of many battles between clans for centuries. If after every battle the army of one side will lose all its trained officers to suicide practice, the country would cease to exist. But you, of course, having a Japanese name, may know better. Alex. "cc" > wrote in message ... > > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > >> I was introduced to the O-tya Do in 1980 by former Japanese prisoners of > war >> in East Siberia > ... >> in the eyes and movements >> of old, defeated samurai > > Well, nice try. But, your scenario has too many incoherences. You've > forgotten that defeated samurai are either dead while fighting or > suicided. > I suggest you start the story with : "I was introduced to the O-tya Do by > the *ghosts* of former Japanese prisoners of war. An East-Siberian shaman > allowed one of those wandering soul to borrow his body for the time of a > Tea > Ceremony....". > > Kuri > > > > |
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"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message news > Dave, > > If I were you I would not pay much attention at crymad's posts. If you read > his posts you will see that very few if any of his posts are informative, > rather his posts are all argumentative. There is no constructive element > there. Direct questions turn him away, as you can see looking at my recent > direct questions to him in the "Cha that's not tea" thread. I love > aggressive arguing, but there has to be certain level of knowledge behind > it. Arguing for the sake of arguing belongs in alt.politics or alt.culture. > That's all they do. > > Sasha. > I'm considering his words, but not too deeply. Thanks for the input. It is appreciated. Dave > > "Dave" > wrote in message > ... > > > > "crymad" > wrote in message > > ... > >> > >> > >> cc wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > So, I think your idea of discipline and following strict rules is > >> > false, > > or > >> > at least very exagerated. But I get where you've seen that. Samurai > > fictions > >> > are to Japan what Westerns are to the U.S. > >> > >> I'm glad someone finally brought this up. The whole spirit of cha-no-yu > >> is the in the avoidance of strict, complicated ritual. "Harmony", > >> "reverence", "purity", and "tranquility" -- these are the guiding > >> principles. > >> > >> --crymad > > > > I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from on this point. > > Harmony > > comes from working together, does it not? And strict rules (and following > > them like a religion is to some people) would not result in this type of > > harmony? That, at least, is what I intend to play on in the story I am > > writing. An arrogant rule-breaker is made to adjust his attitude, at > > least > > on the outside, in order to remain essentially free from a type of > > punishment. > > > > Sorry, but it seems to me that strict avoidance of rules results in chaos, > > which is not conducive to harmony, reverence, purity or tranquility. Am I > > missing something? (Seriously asking this question. I've gone off-track > > before, and if I have done it again I would honestly appreciate having > > that > > fact pointed out so I don't continue in an off-track direction.) > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > |
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"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > Russia after the WW2 had tens of thousands of Japanese prisoners of war... Thanks, but I knew it. I have been to school and studied history a little. You should do the same. And then, if you dare, come again to tell on this NG that the "true meaning" of Sado (the way of tea) is decided by the bunch of colonialo-fascist-slaughterers that totally destroyed Japan and most neighbouring countries in the 1930's and 1940's. This newsgroup is about tea. Sado is a tradition the people in Japan inherited from the old Chinese (that you claim to know of). It is about tea, and the essential of it can be perceived as only tea for Michael, a search of hamony for Crymad, an exchange between friends and artists for me, and we are not in contradiction as a same thing can be seen from different angles. I just wish Dave met people that actually do it to make his own idea, and give up the idea of making it fit with a cliche image he got from popular fiction. >I have never heard of anyone questioning their > honor neither on Russian or Japanese side. I have heard people defending their honor. I place them (and you) at the same level as those that say the Nazi torture masters or Saddam Hussein were honorable guys. I laugh about them, there are chances their words have further than they meant, but if I see they insist in their delirium as you did, it's worriying. And talking about those sad souls here is totally irrelevent. > I am not a specialist in Bushido and would never feel that I know enough >to voice my opinion. You're the one that introduced the topic, and voiced an opinion about it here. >This is laughable. The medieval > Japan was a theatre of many battles between clans for centuries. If after > every battle the army of one side will lose all its trained officers to > suicide practice, the country would cease to exist. This is exactly what happened. Open an history book some day. When a clan lost a war, the surviving warriors were executed unless they managed to kill themselves before being caught. The only choice of life for a member of a defeated samurai family was lonely wandering in the mountains or, if his enemies allowed it, joining the "buraku" (sort of ghetto for the caste of people considered lower than the anybody else). The castle of the clan was destroyed and all their lands and belonging taken. Their country disappeared from the map. Only 3 castles (among the hundreds that were ever built) were left at the end of samurai wars. Wishing that those times come back in Japan (as you did) is like wishing a new Staline to Russia (which I don't). Kuri |
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"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > Russia after the WW2 had tens of thousands of Japanese prisoners of war... Thanks, but I knew it. I have been to school and studied history a little. You should do the same. And then, if you dare, come again to tell on this NG that the "true meaning" of Sado (the way of tea) is decided by the bunch of colonialo-fascist-slaughterers that totally destroyed Japan and most neighbouring countries in the 1930's and 1940's. This newsgroup is about tea. Sado is a tradition the people in Japan inherited from the old Chinese (that you claim to know of). It is about tea, and the essential of it can be perceived as only tea for Michael, a search of hamony for Crymad, an exchange between friends and artists for me, and we are not in contradiction as a same thing can be seen from different angles. I just wish Dave met people that actually do it to make his own idea, and give up the idea of making it fit with a cliche image he got from popular fiction. >I have never heard of anyone questioning their > honor neither on Russian or Japanese side. I have heard people defending their honor. I place them (and you) at the same level as those that say the Nazi torture masters or Saddam Hussein were honorable guys. I laugh about them, there are chances their words have further than they meant, but if I see they insist in their delirium as you did, it's worriying. And talking about those sad souls here is totally irrelevent. > I am not a specialist in Bushido and would never feel that I know enough >to voice my opinion. You're the one that introduced the topic, and voiced an opinion about it here. >This is laughable. The medieval > Japan was a theatre of many battles between clans for centuries. If after > every battle the army of one side will lose all its trained officers to > suicide practice, the country would cease to exist. This is exactly what happened. Open an history book some day. When a clan lost a war, the surviving warriors were executed unless they managed to kill themselves before being caught. The only choice of life for a member of a defeated samurai family was lonely wandering in the mountains or, if his enemies allowed it, joining the "buraku" (sort of ghetto for the caste of people considered lower than the anybody else). The castle of the clan was destroyed and all their lands and belonging taken. Their country disappeared from the map. Only 3 castles (among the hundreds that were ever built) were left at the end of samurai wars. Wishing that those times come back in Japan (as you did) is like wishing a new Staline to Russia (which I don't). Kuri |
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Sasha,
If one weren't such a damnable purist, one could have fierce intellectual battle over gungfu. Come to New York and we'll show you how we canabalize and *******ize the most venerated traditions. (I hope this does't offend.) Misha Alex igy.com9/10/04 > I do not blame you. Anyway, Russian tea's most important part is good > company and fierce intellectual battle, during which girls choose their > studs for the night...  I think the Russian revolution of 1917 will not> have happened if not for samovar tea. > Exactly the opposite of the gongfu where the conversation is subtle and the > feelings are mild and fine... Since I gave up on making a world a better > place gongfu fits me better nowadays... > > Sasha. |
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Sasha,
If one weren't such a damnable purist, one could have fierce intellectual battle over gungfu. Come to New York and we'll show you how we canabalize and *******ize the most venerated traditions. (I hope this does't offend.) Misha Alex igy.com9/10/04 > I do not blame you. Anyway, Russian tea's most important part is good > company and fierce intellectual battle, during which girls choose their > studs for the night... I think the Russian revolution of 1917 will not> have happened if not for samovar tea. > Exactly the opposite of the gongfu where the conversation is subtle and the > feelings are mild and fine... Since I gave up on making a world a better > place gongfu fits me better nowadays... > > Sasha. |
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Sasha has been here for a couple of posts and is already using
standard Usenet obfuscation argumentative tactics. So he's been around. This group is rife with hit and run tea posters. They babble to themselves then disappear. So it remains to be seen how much he will contribute. There are the old timers who stick around and contribute their two cents worth. There are divergent opinions so using gongfu as an example. I subscribe to the camp it is a service and not a ceremony. To be brutal I've never seen a gongfu service where someone isn't selling you something. You buy the gongfu service on the way out or buy some outlandish expensive tea. I've never been to a restaurant and seen a Japanese Tea Ceremony. I go once a year too our local Cherry Blossom festival and see it performed in a gazebo. You just watch. Nothing is explained. There are no schedules. You are in the right place at the right time. If you need a reservation you'll never understand. Take it from a old timer pay attention and learn something and don't take sides thinking there is a correct answer. Crymad has his Japanese connections as do several other people. Several of us have traveled the world also. My observations are gleamed from local ethnic communities and if Sasha ever gets lonely he can visit our local Russian community. Sometimes I'm afraid too. I wished I had access to Lexus\Nexus to see reports about Japanese prisoner populations in Russia from WWII. There is a parallel in Britain where German prisoners did not return to the motherland. The bottom line nothing to go back too. The biggest strength in this ng are the shared obervations and sometimes we politely agree to disagree. I've had my share of shouting matches but then I'm the self appointed curmudgeon. Age has it's privileges. Jim put on your earmuffs chainsaw in use "Dave" > wrote in message >... > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > news > > Dave, > > > > If I were you I would not pay much attention at crymad's posts. > > Sasha. > > > > I'm considering his words, but not too deeply. Thanks for the input. It is > appreciated. > > Dave |
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Sasha has been here for a couple of posts and is already using
standard Usenet obfuscation argumentative tactics. So he's been around. This group is rife with hit and run tea posters. They babble to themselves then disappear. So it remains to be seen how much he will contribute. There are the old timers who stick around and contribute their two cents worth. There are divergent opinions so using gongfu as an example. I subscribe to the camp it is a service and not a ceremony. To be brutal I've never seen a gongfu service where someone isn't selling you something. You buy the gongfu service on the way out or buy some outlandish expensive tea. I've never been to a restaurant and seen a Japanese Tea Ceremony. I go once a year too our local Cherry Blossom festival and see it performed in a gazebo. You just watch. Nothing is explained. There are no schedules. You are in the right place at the right time. If you need a reservation you'll never understand. Take it from a old timer pay attention and learn something and don't take sides thinking there is a correct answer. Crymad has his Japanese connections as do several other people. Several of us have traveled the world also. My observations are gleamed from local ethnic communities and if Sasha ever gets lonely he can visit our local Russian community. Sometimes I'm afraid too. I wished I had access to Lexus\Nexus to see reports about Japanese prisoner populations in Russia from WWII. There is a parallel in Britain where German prisoners did not return to the motherland. The bottom line nothing to go back too. The biggest strength in this ng are the shared obervations and sometimes we politely agree to disagree. I've had my share of shouting matches but then I'm the self appointed curmudgeon. Age has it's privileges. Jim put on your earmuffs chainsaw in use "Dave" > wrote in message >... > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > news > > Dave, > > > > If I were you I would not pay much attention at crymad's posts. > > Sasha. > > > > I'm considering his words, but not too deeply. Thanks for the input. It is > appreciated. > > Dave |
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My guess Kabbalah. If you pass time you're going faster than the
speed of light. If the universe does collapse then the future will occur before the past. Jim Joel Reicher > wrote in message >... > "Alex Chaihorsky" > writes: > > > There is so much I can say here, but I will yield to higher authority. > > I will answer you with the Talmudic quote that appears to be written just > > for this exchange: > > > > "Do not think that time is passing, time is standing, we pass." > > My Talmudic library is upstairs and I feel lazy today. But if you need, I > > will dig it up. > > It'd be illuminating to have the context. Put starkly like that it > sounds more like Zohar than Talmud. > > It's not that important though. > > Cheers, > > - Joel |
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My guess Kabbalah. If you pass time you're going faster than the
speed of light. If the universe does collapse then the future will occur before the past. Jim Joel Reicher > wrote in message >... > "Alex Chaihorsky" > writes: > > > There is so much I can say here, but I will yield to higher authority. > > I will answer you with the Talmudic quote that appears to be written just > > for this exchange: > > > > "Do not think that time is passing, time is standing, we pass." > > My Talmudic library is upstairs and I feel lazy today. But if you need, I > > will dig it up. > > It'd be illuminating to have the context. Put starkly like that it > sounds more like Zohar than Talmud. > > It's not that important though. > > Cheers, > > - Joel |
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You have to learn how to control your anger and how to argue in a civilized
way if you want to be taken seriously. Certainly you attitude reveals your tender age and that certainly excuses your boorish tone, but only partially. As Chinese say - "Nobody puts honey in a vessel of dry manure" - meaning that true words are never said in an angry, insulting way. It is up to the readers of this forum to decide who needs to be educated in history and who - in manners. One correction on the substance, though - I never wished that the Bushido times comes to Japan again - I just said that it is INEVITABLE. Watching Japanese PR paying yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine should leave few doubts in anyone's mind. I think you know that too, and that is why you lost control of your emotions. You may not like it and you may be against it and you may feel powerless to stop it, but why dump your anger on me? If you would really study history you would understand that a humiliation of a nation never leads to long-term positive results. The Allies did everything possible after the WW2 not to humiliate Japanese the way they humiliated Germans after WW1 that gave rise to Hitlerism. That is why the coming back of traditional values of Japanese society was not and I hope will never be as emotional and violent as it was in Germany. And resisting it only makes thing worse. Closing the vent just builds up the pressure. Japan cannot live forever under a Constitution that was forcefully imposed on it by the victors. Japan has to create its own Constitution that would reflect its core values as a contemporary democratic society with respect to traditional values and its better to be done without hot-headed young hoodlums on the both sides of the debate. If you would actually READ my posts and not just glance over them you would also see that I clearly stated that I actually was deeply disgusted by the behavior of Japanese officers towards civilian population, women, and especially the Nankin disaster. As I wrote, I was so disgusted that I abandoned my Japanese studies and concentrated on Chinese. But I guess the anger of immature mind is blind once it made itself up. Accusing me of sympathizing with Nazis and Saddam Hussein in this discussion, having in mind my Jewish background is not very smart either, to put it mildly. Sasha. "cc" > wrote in message ... > > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > > >> Russia after the WW2 had tens of thousands of Japanese prisoners of >> war... > > Thanks, but I knew it. I have been to school and studied history a little. > You should do the > same. And then, if you dare, come again to tell on this NG that the "true > meaning" of Sado (the way of tea) is decided by the bunch of > colonialo-fascist-slaughterers > that totally destroyed Japan and most neighbouring countries in the 1930's > and 1940's. > > This newsgroup is about tea. Sado is a tradition the people in Japan > inherited from the old Chinese (that you claim to know of). It is about > tea, > and the essential of it can be perceived as only tea for Michael, a search > of hamony for Crymad, an exchange between friends and artists for me, and > we > are not in contradiction as a same thing can be seen from different > angles. > I just wish Dave met people that actually do it to make his own idea, and > give up the idea of making it fit with a cliche image he got from popular > fiction. > >>I have never heard of anyone questioning their >> honor neither on Russian or Japanese side. > > I have heard people defending their honor. I place them (and you) at the > same > level as those that say the Nazi torture masters or Saddam Hussein were > honorable guys. I laugh about them, there are chances their words have > further than they meant, but if I see they insist in their delirium as you > did, it's worriying. > And talking about those sad souls here is totally irrelevent. > >> I am not a specialist in Bushido and would never feel that I know enough >>to voice my opinion. > > You're the one that introduced the topic, and voiced an opinion about it > here. > >>This is laughable. The medieval >> Japan was a theatre of many battles between clans for centuries. If after >> every battle the army of one side will lose all its trained officers to >> suicide practice, the country would cease to exist. > > This is exactly what happened. Open an history book some day. When a clan > lost a war, the surviving warriors were executed unless they managed to > kill themselves before being caught. The only choice of life for a member > of > a defeated samurai family was lonely wandering in the mountains or, if his > enemies allowed it, joining the "buraku" (sort of ghetto for the caste of > people considered lower than > the anybody else). The castle of the clan was destroyed and all their > lands > and belonging taken. Their country disappeared from the map. Only 3 > castles > (among the hundreds that were ever built) were left at the end of samurai > wars. > Wishing that those times come back in Japan (as you did) is like wishing a > new Staline to Russia (which I don't). > > Kuri > |
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You have to learn how to control your anger and how to argue in a civilized
way if you want to be taken seriously. Certainly you attitude reveals your tender age and that certainly excuses your boorish tone, but only partially. As Chinese say - "Nobody puts honey in a vessel of dry manure" - meaning that true words are never said in an angry, insulting way. It is up to the readers of this forum to decide who needs to be educated in history and who - in manners. One correction on the substance, though - I never wished that the Bushido times comes to Japan again - I just said that it is INEVITABLE. Watching Japanese PR paying yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine should leave few doubts in anyone's mind. I think you know that too, and that is why you lost control of your emotions. You may not like it and you may be against it and you may feel powerless to stop it, but why dump your anger on me? If you would really study history you would understand that a humiliation of a nation never leads to long-term positive results. The Allies did everything possible after the WW2 not to humiliate Japanese the way they humiliated Germans after WW1 that gave rise to Hitlerism. That is why the coming back of traditional values of Japanese society was not and I hope will never be as emotional and violent as it was in Germany. And resisting it only makes thing worse. Closing the vent just builds up the pressure. Japan cannot live forever under a Constitution that was forcefully imposed on it by the victors. Japan has to create its own Constitution that would reflect its core values as a contemporary democratic society with respect to traditional values and its better to be done without hot-headed young hoodlums on the both sides of the debate. If you would actually READ my posts and not just glance over them you would also see that I clearly stated that I actually was deeply disgusted by the behavior of Japanese officers towards civilian population, women, and especially the Nankin disaster. As I wrote, I was so disgusted that I abandoned my Japanese studies and concentrated on Chinese. But I guess the anger of immature mind is blind once it made itself up. Accusing me of sympathizing with Nazis and Saddam Hussein in this discussion, having in mind my Jewish background is not very smart either, to put it mildly. Sasha. "cc" > wrote in message ... > > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > > >> Russia after the WW2 had tens of thousands of Japanese prisoners of >> war... > > Thanks, but I knew it. I have been to school and studied history a little. > You should do the > same. And then, if you dare, come again to tell on this NG that the "true > meaning" of Sado (the way of tea) is decided by the bunch of > colonialo-fascist-slaughterers > that totally destroyed Japan and most neighbouring countries in the 1930's > and 1940's. > > This newsgroup is about tea. Sado is a tradition the people in Japan > inherited from the old Chinese (that you claim to know of). It is about > tea, > and the essential of it can be perceived as only tea for Michael, a search > of hamony for Crymad, an exchange between friends and artists for me, and > we > are not in contradiction as a same thing can be seen from different > angles. > I just wish Dave met people that actually do it to make his own idea, and > give up the idea of making it fit with a cliche image he got from popular > fiction. > >>I have never heard of anyone questioning their >> honor neither on Russian or Japanese side. > > I have heard people defending their honor. I place them (and you) at the > same > level as those that say the Nazi torture masters or Saddam Hussein were > honorable guys. I laugh about them, there are chances their words have > further than they meant, but if I see they insist in their delirium as you > did, it's worriying. > And talking about those sad souls here is totally irrelevent. > >> I am not a specialist in Bushido and would never feel that I know enough >>to voice my opinion. > > You're the one that introduced the topic, and voiced an opinion about it > here. > >>This is laughable. The medieval >> Japan was a theatre of many battles between clans for centuries. If after >> every battle the army of one side will lose all its trained officers to >> suicide practice, the country would cease to exist. > > This is exactly what happened. Open an history book some day. When a clan > lost a war, the surviving warriors were executed unless they managed to > kill themselves before being caught. The only choice of life for a member > of > a defeated samurai family was lonely wandering in the mountains or, if his > enemies allowed it, joining the "buraku" (sort of ghetto for the caste of > people considered lower than > the anybody else). The castle of the clan was destroyed and all their > lands > and belonging taken. Their country disappeared from the map. Only 3 > castles > (among the hundreds that were ever built) were left at the end of samurai > wars. > Wishing that those times come back in Japan (as you did) is like wishing a > new Staline to Russia (which I don't). > > Kuri > |
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You have to learn how to control your anger and how to argue in a civilized
way if you want to be taken seriously. Certainly you attitude reveals your tender age and that certainly excuses your boorish tone, but only partially. As Chinese say - "Nobody puts honey in a vessel of dry manure" - meaning that true words are never said in an angry, insulting way. It is up to the readers of this forum to decide who needs to be educated in history and who - in manners. One correction on the substance, though - I never wished that the Bushido times comes to Japan again - I just said that it is INEVITABLE. Watching Japanese PR paying yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine should leave few doubts in anyone's mind. I think you know that too, and that is why you lost control of your emotions. You may not like it and you may be against it and you may feel powerless to stop it, but why dump your anger on me? If you would really study history you would understand that a humiliation of a nation never leads to long-term positive results. The Allies did everything possible after the WW2 not to humiliate Japanese the way they humiliated Germans after WW1 that gave rise to Hitlerism. That is why the coming back of traditional values of Japanese society was not and I hope will never be as emotional and violent as it was in Germany. And resisting it only makes thing worse. Closing the vent just builds up the pressure. Japan cannot live forever under a Constitution that was forcefully imposed on it by the victors. Japan has to create its own Constitution that would reflect its core values as a contemporary democratic society with respect to traditional values and its better to be done without hot-headed young hoodlums on the both sides of the debate. If you would actually READ my posts and not just glance over them you would also see that I clearly stated that I actually was deeply disgusted by the behavior of Japanese officers towards civilian population, women, and especially the Nankin disaster. As I wrote, I was so disgusted that I abandoned my Japanese studies and concentrated on Chinese. But I guess the anger of immature mind is blind once it made itself up. Accusing me of sympathizing with Nazis and Saddam Hussein in this discussion, having in mind my Jewish background is not very smart either, to put it mildly. Sasha. "cc" > wrote in message ... > > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > > >> Russia after the WW2 had tens of thousands of Japanese prisoners of >> war... > > Thanks, but I knew it. I have been to school and studied history a little. > You should do the > same. And then, if you dare, come again to tell on this NG that the "true > meaning" of Sado (the way of tea) is decided by the bunch of > colonialo-fascist-slaughterers > that totally destroyed Japan and most neighbouring countries in the 1930's > and 1940's. > > This newsgroup is about tea. Sado is a tradition the people in Japan > inherited from the old Chinese (that you claim to know of). It is about > tea, > and the essential of it can be perceived as only tea for Michael, a search > of hamony for Crymad, an exchange between friends and artists for me, and > we > are not in contradiction as a same thing can be seen from different > angles. > I just wish Dave met people that actually do it to make his own idea, and > give up the idea of making it fit with a cliche image he got from popular > fiction. > >>I have never heard of anyone questioning their >> honor neither on Russian or Japanese side. > > I have heard people defending their honor. I place them (and you) at the > same > level as those that say the Nazi torture masters or Saddam Hussein were > honorable guys. I laugh about them, there are chances their words have > further than they meant, but if I see they insist in their delirium as you > did, it's worriying. > And talking about those sad souls here is totally irrelevent. > >> I am not a specialist in Bushido and would never feel that I know enough >>to voice my opinion. > > You're the one that introduced the topic, and voiced an opinion about it > here. > >>This is laughable. The medieval >> Japan was a theatre of many battles between clans for centuries. If after >> every battle the army of one side will lose all its trained officers to >> suicide practice, the country would cease to exist. > > This is exactly what happened. Open an history book some day. When a clan > lost a war, the surviving warriors were executed unless they managed to > kill themselves before being caught. The only choice of life for a member > of > a defeated samurai family was lonely wandering in the mountains or, if his > enemies allowed it, joining the "buraku" (sort of ghetto for the caste of > people considered lower than > the anybody else). The castle of the clan was destroyed and all their > lands > and belonging taken. Their country disappeared from the map. Only 3 > castles > (among the hundreds that were ever built) were left at the end of samurai > wars. > Wishing that those times come back in Japan (as you did) is like wishing a > new Staline to Russia (which I don't). > > Kuri > |
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It is not being a purist (which I am not) but following myself.
What I discovered about myself is that taste (palate) excites me and scent - pacifies me. As soon as I smell the tea in chahe, I fell deep down into myself and lose all interest in serious discussions. That is why 100% traditional places like Roy's Imperial in Chinatown, SF suit me so well - there is very little talk and people do bring their bird cages for the birds to drink tea and sing and it if perfect. But only if I do gongfu. I would be bored to death in the same atmosphere during a restaurant dinner. Thanks for an invitation, but since one cold night in February 2002 NY has become a very sad place for me and will forever be that way. I do not think I will be capable of any intellectual effort in NY at all. Sasha. "Michael Plant" > wrote in message ... > Sasha, > > If one weren't such a damnable purist, one could have fierce intellectual > battle over gungfu. Come to New York and we'll show you how we canabalize > and *******ize the most venerated traditions. (I hope this does't offend.) > > Misha > > > Alex igy.com9/10/04 > > >> I do not blame you. Anyway, Russian tea's most important part is good >> company and fierce intellectual battle, during which girls choose their >> studs for the night... I think the Russian revolution of 1917 will not>> have happened if not for samovar tea. >> Exactly the opposite of the gongfu where the conversation is subtle and >> the >> feelings are mild and fine... Since I gave up on making a world a better >> place gongfu fits me better nowadays... >> >> Sasha. > > |
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It is not being a purist (which I am not) but following myself.
What I discovered about myself is that taste (palate) excites me and scent - pacifies me. As soon as I smell the tea in chahe, I fell deep down into myself and lose all interest in serious discussions. That is why 100% traditional places like Roy's Imperial in Chinatown, SF suit me so well - there is very little talk and people do bring their bird cages for the birds to drink tea and sing and it if perfect. But only if I do gongfu. I would be bored to death in the same atmosphere during a restaurant dinner. Thanks for an invitation, but since one cold night in February 2002 NY has become a very sad place for me and will forever be that way. I do not think I will be capable of any intellectual effort in NY at all. Sasha. "Michael Plant" > wrote in message ... > Sasha, > > If one weren't such a damnable purist, one could have fierce intellectual > battle over gungfu. Come to New York and we'll show you how we canabalize > and *******ize the most venerated traditions. (I hope this does't offend.) > > Misha > > > Alex igy.com9/10/04 > > >> I do not blame you. Anyway, Russian tea's most important part is good >> company and fierce intellectual battle, during which girls choose their >> studs for the night... I think the Russian revolution of 1917 will not>> have happened if not for samovar tea. >> Exactly the opposite of the gongfu where the conversation is subtle and >> the >> feelings are mild and fine... Since I gave up on making a world a better >> place gongfu fits me better nowadays... >> >> Sasha. > > |
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Sasha, No mention of "intellectual effort" in NY at all. We frown upon it. Just tea of the very best. Sorry about your 2/02 experience, whatever it was. On the ITC thing, I suppose the quiet would be disquieting. M Alex igy.com9/13/04 > It is not being a purist (which I am not) but following myself. > What I discovered about myself is that taste (palate) excites me and scent - > pacifies me. As soon as I smell the tea in chahe, I fell deep down into > myself and lose all interest in serious discussions. That is why 100% > traditional places like Roy's Imperial in Chinatown, SF suit me so well - > there is very little talk and people do bring their bird cages for the birds > to drink tea and sing and it if perfect. But only if I do gongfu. I would be > bored to death in the same atmosphere during a restaurant dinner. > > Thanks for an invitation, but since one cold night in February 2002 NY has > become a very sad place for me and will forever be that way. I do not think > I will be capable of any intellectual effort in NY at all. > > Sasha. |
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"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > You have to learn how to control your anger Who is angry ? I have to control your anger ? > One correction on the substance, though - I never wished that the Bushido > times comes to Japan again - I just said that it is INEVITABLE. >Watching > Japanese PR paying yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine should leave few doubts > in anyone's mind. Yasukuni Jinja was instituted during the Meiji era (=after the Meiji Revolution). It is as symbolic of *Bushido times* as a statue of Lenine is symbolic of *the times of the Tsars* . Your "cafe du commerce" political theories are ininteresting, out-dated and completely out of topic on this NG. I am not Japanese, I just live in Osaka. It's a peaceful place, nowadays Japanese have completely forgotten or never known of the crazy colonialist times. I was at the Asian Library this afternoon, they have not enough rooms for all the people that want to study Korean and Chinese. People's concern is about the Chinese nationalists that are turning into hooligans and Koreans' nukes. Kuri |
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"Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > You have to learn how to control your anger Who is angry ? I have to control your anger ? > One correction on the substance, though - I never wished that the Bushido > times comes to Japan again - I just said that it is INEVITABLE. >Watching > Japanese PR paying yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine should leave few doubts > in anyone's mind. Yasukuni Jinja was instituted during the Meiji era (=after the Meiji Revolution). It is as symbolic of *Bushido times* as a statue of Lenine is symbolic of *the times of the Tsars* . Your "cafe du commerce" political theories are ininteresting, out-dated and completely out of topic on this NG. I am not Japanese, I just live in Osaka. It's a peaceful place, nowadays Japanese have completely forgotten or never known of the crazy colonialist times. I was at the Asian Library this afternoon, they have not enough rooms for all the people that want to study Korean and Chinese. People's concern is about the Chinese nationalists that are turning into hooligans and Koreans' nukes. Kuri |
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> "crymad" > wrote: >> I'm glad someone finally brought this up. The whole spirit of cha-no-yu >> is the in the avoidance of strict, complicated ritual. "Harmony", >> "reverence", "purity", and "tranquility" -- these are the guiding >> principles. Dave > answered: > Sorry, but it seems to me that strict avoidance of rules results in chaos, > which is not conducive to harmony, reverence, purity or tranquility. Am I > missing something? (Seriously asking this question. I've gone off-track > before, and if I have done it again I would honestly appreciate having that > fact pointed out so I don't continue in an off-track direction.) Since I seem to be specializing in off-topic posts lately, let me say that this reminds me of the title of Vivaldi's opus 8 (I think it's 8) collection of wonderful concerti, including The Famous Four (Seasons): "A contest between harmony and invention". Out of such contests come beauty. Best, Rick. |
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Alex Chaihorsky wrote: > One correction on the substance, though - I never wished that the Bushido > times comes to Japan again - I just said that it is INEVITABLE. Watching > Japanese PR paying yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine should leave few doubts > in anyone's mind. You've got to be kidding. Have you ever even been to Japan? --crymad |
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Alex Chaihorsky wrote: > One correction on the substance, though - I never wished that the Bushido > times comes to Japan again - I just said that it is INEVITABLE. Watching > Japanese PR paying yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine should leave few doubts > in anyone's mind. You've got to be kidding. Have you ever even been to Japan? --crymad |
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This is much better. Another couple of posts and it will be possible to
argue with you in a civilized way. 1. It does not matter when Yasukune Shrine was built. The 4-wing swastika also came to existance way before Hitler, but it BECAME a symbol of Nazism. Kremlin was built as a citadel of Russian Tzars and later BECAME a simbol of Russian Communism and imperialism. The Yasukune Temple BECAME a symbol of revival of Bushido as well as a target of extensive compaints and diplomatical problems with the governments of China and Korea. If you were right and Yasukune was not that - why all the fuss, demonstrations of protest outside it and support inside it during yearly PM visits there? Why all that fuss whether he visited it as a PM or as a private person? Why Chinese governmet warns Japanese that these visits harm Sino-Japanese relationships? One just have to look up the word "Yasukune" (I very much reccommend anyone who is interested in this subject do that - you will see things that are rarely made public in Western media) and there will be no doubt on the subject. Who are you kidding? 2. You may as well be right in your assessments, but not if we judge that by the logic, strength and validity of your arguments,.. Re-read what you write. When you say that Japanese "completely forgotten or never knew" about what you call "crazy colonialist times" you are being hopelessly naive. To think that a country can "forget" such things goes against all the lessons history taught us. You say that you are a student of history but your angry tone and wishful thinking makes me doubt that you went far in the field. You can be as agressive as you want and as argumentative as you want but you have to lay them down - the arguments, not just declarations. That is if you are a student of history. Sasha. "cc" > wrote in message ... > > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > >> You have to learn how to control your anger > > Who is angry ? I have to control your anger ? > >> One correction on the substance, though - I never wished that the Bushido >> times comes to Japan again - I just said that it is INEVITABLE. >>Watching >> Japanese PR paying yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine should leave few > doubts >> in anyone's mind. > > Yasukuni Jinja was instituted during the Meiji era (=after the Meiji > Revolution). It is as symbolic of *Bushido times* as a statue of Lenine > is > symbolic of *the times of the Tsars* . > > Your "cafe du commerce" political theories are ininteresting, out-dated > and > completely out of topic on this NG. > > I am not Japanese, I just live in Osaka. It's a peaceful place, nowadays > Japanese have completely forgotten or never known of the crazy colonialist > times. I was at the Asian Library this afternoon, they have not enough > rooms > for all the people that want to study Korean and Chinese. People's concern > is about the Chinese nationalists that are turning into hooligans and > Koreans' nukes. > > Kuri > > > > |
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This is much better. Another couple of posts and it will be possible to
argue with you in a civilized way. 1. It does not matter when Yasukune Shrine was built. The 4-wing swastika also came to existance way before Hitler, but it BECAME a symbol of Nazism. Kremlin was built as a citadel of Russian Tzars and later BECAME a simbol of Russian Communism and imperialism. The Yasukune Temple BECAME a symbol of revival of Bushido as well as a target of extensive compaints and diplomatical problems with the governments of China and Korea. If you were right and Yasukune was not that - why all the fuss, demonstrations of protest outside it and support inside it during yearly PM visits there? Why all that fuss whether he visited it as a PM or as a private person? Why Chinese governmet warns Japanese that these visits harm Sino-Japanese relationships? One just have to look up the word "Yasukune" (I very much reccommend anyone who is interested in this subject do that - you will see things that are rarely made public in Western media) and there will be no doubt on the subject. Who are you kidding? 2. You may as well be right in your assessments, but not if we judge that by the logic, strength and validity of your arguments,.. Re-read what you write. When you say that Japanese "completely forgotten or never knew" about what you call "crazy colonialist times" you are being hopelessly naive. To think that a country can "forget" such things goes against all the lessons history taught us. You say that you are a student of history but your angry tone and wishful thinking makes me doubt that you went far in the field. You can be as agressive as you want and as argumentative as you want but you have to lay them down - the arguments, not just declarations. That is if you are a student of history. Sasha. "cc" > wrote in message ... > > "Alex Chaihorsky" > wrote in message > >> You have to learn how to control your anger > > Who is angry ? I have to control your anger ? > >> One correction on the substance, though - I never wished that the Bushido >> times comes to Japan again - I just said that it is INEVITABLE. >>Watching >> Japanese PR paying yearly visits to Yasukuni Shrine should leave few > doubts >> in anyone's mind. > > Yasukuni Jinja was instituted during the Meiji era (=after the Meiji > Revolution). It is as symbolic of *Bushido times* as a statue of Lenine > is > symbolic of *the times of the Tsars* . > > Your "cafe du commerce" political theories are ininteresting, out-dated > and > completely out of topic on this NG. > > I am not Japanese, I just live in Osaka. It's a peaceful place, nowadays > Japanese have completely forgotten or never known of the crazy colonialist > times. I was at the Asian Library this afternoon, they have not enough > rooms > for all the people that want to study Korean and Chinese. People's concern > is about the Chinese nationalists that are turning into hooligans and > Koreans' nukes. > > Kuri > > > > |
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Alex Chaihorsky wrote: > > This is much better. Another couple of posts and it will be possible to > argue with you in a civilized way. > > 1. It does not matter when Yasukune Shrine was built. The 4-wing swastika > also came to existance way before Hitler, but it BECAME a symbol of Nazism. > Kremlin was built as a citadel of Russian Tzars and later BECAME a simbol of > Russian Communism and imperialism. The Yasukune Temple BECAME a symbol of > revival of Bushido as well as a target of extensive compaints and > diplomatical problems with the governments of China and Korea. If you were > right and Yasukune was not that - why all the fuss, demonstrations of > protest outside it and support inside it during yearly PM visits there? Why > all that fuss whether he visited it as a PM or as a private person? Why > Chinese governmet warns Japanese that these visits harm Sino-Japanese > relationships? One just have to look up the word "Yasukune" (I very much > reccommend anyone who is interested in this subject do that - you will see > things that are rarely made public in Western media) and there will be no > doubt on the subject. Well. part of the reason you'll find very little on the subject of "Yasukune" is that it's spelled wrong. "Yasukuni" is correct. --crymad |
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Alex Chaihorsky wrote: > > This is much better. Another couple of posts and it will be possible to > argue with you in a civilized way. > > 1. It does not matter when Yasukune Shrine was built. The 4-wing swastika > also came to existance way before Hitler, but it BECAME a symbol of Nazism. > Kremlin was built as a citadel of Russian Tzars and later BECAME a simbol of > Russian Communism and imperialism. The Yasukune Temple BECAME a symbol of > revival of Bushido as well as a target of extensive compaints and > diplomatical problems with the governments of China and Korea. If you were > right and Yasukune was not that - why all the fuss, demonstrations of > protest outside it and support inside it during yearly PM visits there? Why > all that fuss whether he visited it as a PM or as a private person? Why > Chinese governmet warns Japanese that these visits harm Sino-Japanese > relationships? One just have to look up the word "Yasukune" (I very much > reccommend anyone who is interested in this subject do that - you will see > things that are rarely made public in Western media) and there will be no > doubt on the subject. Well. part of the reason you'll find very little on the subject of "Yasukune" is that it's spelled wrong. "Yasukuni" is correct. --crymad |
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