Howdy,

A few days ago, I took out a piece of one of my refrigerated
storage starters, added equal weights of flour and water,
put it aside at 80F, and left it for 12 hours.

When I next looked at it, I was surprised at what I found:

Rather than appearing "frothy" as it always had after this
process, it seems "syrupy" in texture. That texture has
always indicated to me that the gluten has completely
degraded.

There were a few bubbles visible, so some gas was being
generated, but nothing near what I had come to expect. Also,
what little gas was generated, seemed to bubble right out of
the mixture rather than contributing to any increase in
volume.

Next, I tasted a bit of the mixture.

It was quite sour.

I took some of the material in the container, and repeated
the feeding, but had exactly the same result. I checked it
several times over the course of the day to see if, at any
point, there was any rise, but found none.

I have repeated this process over the course of about five
days with no change that I can see.

It appears that the LB are alive and well, but that the
yeasts are dormant, or dead.

Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have
caused this to happen?

Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...

> [ ... ]

> It appears that the LB are alive and well, but that the
> yeasts are dormant, or dead.

> Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have
> caused this to happen?

Yes, for fridge- and dried cultures, but never to the exent that
continued culturing at usual temperatures did not bring back the
yeast activity.

It has been reported that the yeast do drop out upon culturing
at high temperature (~100°F.). Years ago, one poster proposed
this as a way to get very sour bread.

Gaenzle's published data reflects the reason for these effects:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616/F

(Somebody kindly forward this post to Kenneth, as he has had
me killfiled since the early times.)

My take is that, at ordinary culturing temperatures, the yeast and
the bacilli coordinate with one another as the result of some features
of their symbiosis. In dough, however, my best guess is that the
bacteria take over in the end, devouring the starving yeast for a
last big contribution of sourdough flavors. Well, if the dough is
strong and healthy enough to ferment that far before one starts
mumbling about overproofedness...

--
Dicky

On Mar 25, 7:18 am, Kenneth > wrote:

> Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have
> caused this to happen?

I have managed to overheat starters in a crock pot water bath.
Sometimes the remedy is to make a soft dough ball with some of the
"soup" and let it rest 2 to 3 days at 50-55 F. Also... you might try a
doughball with a bit of cooked oatmeal. The oats are a good buffer
compound for your acidic situation. Not a lot of oats... maybe 20%.

I think you have a decent chance of recovering.

Will

Hi Kenneth

by my calculations at that temperature the population is on average
across the species doubling every hour and 25 minutes. That's from 1
12 for the fastest lb's to 1 45 for the yeast. So it looks to me as
if you aren't feeding enough.

Try taking a small amount and feeding about six times it's volume in
water and enough flour to make your batter. Repeat that 12 hours
later, then see how you go. (That feed isn't enough to maintain a
healthy population at that temp but it will do to get it going without
overpowering a sick population.)

Jim



On 25 Mar, 12:18, Kenneth > wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> A few days ago, I took out a piece of one of my refrigerated
> storage starters, added equal weights of flour and water,
> put it aside at 80F, and left it for 12 hours.
>
> When I next looked at it, I was surprised at what I found:
>
> Rather than appearing "frothy" as it always had after this
> process, it seems "syrupy" in texture. That texture has
> always indicated to me that the gluten has completely
> degraded.
>
> There were a few bubbles visible, so some gas was being
> generated, but nothing near what I had come to expect. Also,
> what little gas was generated, seemed to bubble right out of
> the mixture rather than contributing to any increase in
> volume.
>
> Next, I tasted a bit of the mixture.
>
> It was quite sour.
>
> I took some of the material in the container, and repeated
> the feeding, but had exactly the same result. I checked it
> several times over the course of the day to see if, at any
> point, there was any rise, but found none.
>
> I have repeated this process over the course of about five
> days with no change that I can see.
>
> It appears that the LB are alive and well, but that the
> yeasts are dormant, or dead.
>
> Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have
> caused this to happen?
>
> Sincere thanks,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Will" > wrote in message ...
> On Mar 25, 7:18 am, Kenneth > wrote:
>
> > Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have
> > caused this to happen?
>
> I have managed to overheat starters in a crock pot water bath.

Oh, lordy, why would you wanna heat your starters in a crock pot?

> Sometimes the remedy is to make a soft dough ball with some of the
> "soup" and let it rest 2 to 3 days at 50-55 F.

And then, after it is all rested up and cooled down, what?

> Also... you might try a doughball with a bit of cooked oatmeal.
> The oats are a good buffer compound for your acidic situation.

Or drop some Tums, maybe?

> I think you have a decent chance of recovering.

Hope springs eternal ...

Well, he is pretty old you know. Maybe older than me, even.

You know, Will, Kenneth is a person who has devoted himself to the
art of getting folks into a reasonable state of mind by means of skillful
application of rhetorical inquiry. Although I'd like not to think so, I could
quite easily assume you are attempting to frustrate his lofty effort. via the
modus of ad absurdum logical development. And now you have
have got ol' TG going (and me, of course).

--
Dicky

On Mar 25, 11:22 pm, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> Although I'd like not to think so, I could
> quite easily assume you are attempting to frustrate his lofty effort. via the
> modus of ad absurdum logical development. And now you have
> have got ol' TG going (and me, of course).

Well my tale goes like this... it's cold in Wisconsin. In the winter
my house runs at 55 F during the day and 47 F at night. It's an old
house and everything is plaster so ripping it apart to install
insulation would be a real headache. I'd probably have to move, it
might take a while. So I did the windows and then I opted for sweater-
living. My neighbors are all in the same boat, old houses converted to
NG from coal years ago. I suppose the difference is I know what's
coming with respect to energy and they don't. Anyway, I've gotten used
to it. My starters love it. They sit on the counter and mostly rest.
When I want to make bread, which is often, I'll throw a piece of
starter into a crock-pot with a bit of water and start the refreshment
process. Sometimes I forget the pot is going. And then I have the
problem. I've since moved to a big yogurt fermenter. It's a lot slower
so if I forget completely the temp goes to about 110 F. Which is still
too hot but I don't usually get distracted for that long. In the crock
pot the temperature window is roughly 15 minutes. At 20 minutes you're
hosed. Fortunately, despite lazy ways, I have gotten sharper. Working
backwards, which is to say, heating water + flour + various cracked
grains and then adding the starter during the cooling phase is much
less error prone. That's what I do now. If I remember...

In Kenneth's situation it looks like he ran the starter too long at 80
F. Could have been a feeding thing. His starter was more depleted than
he realized at the beginning. Or maybe he didn't run it at 80 F. he
ran it at 95 F. perhaps his thermostat is bad, or it might be a
balance thing where he refreshed successfully over the last umpteen
bake cycles but chilled his reserve before the populations rebalanced.
Who knows?

The soft dough ball thing has recovered my starter a few times. It's
hard to kill a starter. Billions of critters and all. At least a few
thousand survive underfeeding and over heating. Starter glop can be
notoriously uneven in temperature distribution. And temperature drives
critter cycles. So... I pull a little of the "endangered" material,
make my dough ball, put it in the cellar where it's 50 F. and leave it
alone. It usually self-restores. It seems to work a bit better if I
add a bit of cooked cereal, like oatmeal or barley to buffer it. And
no, you don't have to add cooked meal, you can add the raw stuff...
but in Kenneth's case, we have a pedigreed starter, so de-crittered
material: white flour and boiled cereal, are important
considerations.

If I could do it over, Dickie, I would have never been a Republican in
my youth (arrrgh!) and I'd have a straw-bale house. Less energy,
probably less sweater coverage too, but then I'd have to learn
different starter sh*t and... we'd have yet another longish, rambling
post. But I figured what the heck, it's been quiet here at RFS. The
posts, for the most part, have been stupid lately (Viince excepted).
Might as well burn a little bandwidth this morning. :-)

Will

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:35:35 -0700 (PDT), Will
> wrote:

>In Kenneth's situation it looks like he ran the starter too long at 80
>F. Could have been a feeding thing. His starter was more depleted than
>he realized at the beginning. Or maybe he didn't run it at 80 F. he
>ran it at 95 F. perhaps his thermostat is bad, or it might be a
>balance thing where he refreshed successfully over the last umpteen
>bake cycles but chilled his reserve before the populations rebalanced.
>Who knows?
>
>The soft dough ball thing has recovered my starter a few times. It's
>hard to kill a starter. Billions of critters and all. At least a few
>thousand survive underfeeding and over heating. Starter glop can be
>notoriously uneven in temperature distribution. And temperature drives
>critter cycles. So... I pull a little of the "endangered" material,
>make my dough ball, put it in the cellar where it's 50 F. and leave it
>alone. It usually self-restores. It seems to work a bit better if I
>add a bit of cooked cereal, like oatmeal or barley to buffer it. And
>no, you don't have to add cooked meal, you can add the raw stuff...
>but in Kenneth's case, we have a pedigreed starter, so de-crittered
>material: white flour and boiled cereal, are important
>considerations.

Hi Will,

Nope...

The problem that I am having was not caused by running it
too warm.

It had been perfectly fine, and I took some, added as much
flour as I could, formed a very stiff ball, sealed it in a
jar, and put it in the refrigerator.

That's just what I have done for many years, but this time,
when I next took out a piece of that storage starter, it did
not come back properly.

Hmmm. Reading your comments again, I see that I may have
misinterpreted what you wrote:

When I took the piece of storage starter and added water and
flour to it, I did try to revive it at 80F (or, so, I don't
recall exactly) but it did not increase at all in volume.

That may be the stage at which you though I was "too warm"
and you certainly may be correct.

Since I read your suggestion, I have tried again at 55, but
it has only been about 12 hours so I don't know much yet.

I'll keep you posted.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Will" > wrote in message ...

> In Kenneth's situation it looks like he ran the starter too long at 80
> F. Could have been a feeding thing. His starter was more depleted than
> he realized at the beginning. Or maybe he didn't run it at 80 F. he
> ran it at 95 F. perhaps his thermostat is bad, or it might be a
> balance thing where he refreshed successfully over the last umpteen
> bake cycles but chilled his reserve before the populations rebalanced.
> Who knows?

Seems to me it must have died in the fridge. 80 F's, or even 95 F's for
a while, should be entirely tolerable. It has been written (at r.f.s. I think)
that it takes repeated culturing at >95 F's to drop the yeast out. (Did'ja
know that ° is alt248?. Now everybody can write 95°F.!)

Now there's a thought -- maybe Kenneth has a Celsius thermometer and
does not know it.

> If I could do it over, Dickie, I would have never been a Republican in
> my youth (arrrgh!) and I'd have a straw-bale house.

I would be a better terrorist, but then there was a dearth of role models.
I did scarcely better than long-fuse cherry bombs in Republican mailboxes.

> posts, for the most part, have been stupid lately (Viince excepted).

Him??! He dunno even how to spell his own name! Well, he is a good
fellow nontheless. He is not always trying to pry us out of ourselves with
socratic interrogations like Kenneth does, for instance.

--
Dicky

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...

> [ ... ]

> Since I read your suggestion, I have tried again at 55, but
> it has only been about 12 hours so I don't know much yet.

If your smart, Kenneth, you will just forget about all that and
send away for a Carl's start.

But, of course, you will not even read this because you have
had me killfiled since history began.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> (Did'ja know that ° is alt248?. Now everybody can write 95°F.!)
> Dicky
>

I am curious, what kind of a keyboard code are you running?

alt248 has no effect on mine? Is it a Windoze thing?

Oh, I am on hour 11 using your Billowy Sourdough Loaves © recipe. Stage
one was exact at 10 hours on my counter at about 68 deg for a triple
grow, stage 2 is in a pre-warmed oven to get the +/- 85 'deg'.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com...

> I am curious, what kind of a keyboard code are you running?
> alt248 has no effect on mine? Is it a Windoze thing?

I guess that's what you call it, smart-ass! Let us know when you
find out how to make a ° on your geek box.

> Oh, I am on hour 11 using your Billowy Sourdough Loaves © recipe. Stage
> one was exact at 10 hours on my counter at about 68 deg for a triple
> grow, stage 2 is in a pre-warmed oven to get the +/- 85 'deg'.

Yer gonna be in some real trouble if you publish a photo of another one
of your fancy-top pancakes and try to blame it on my instructions.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com...
> Let us know when you find out how to make a ° on your geek box.
>
I have my oven at 85° F. No problem, I have to use a character map
unless I want to do a bunch of programming to get Mozilla to
automatically recognize them with hotkeys I believe. Not today...
>
> Yer gonna be in some real trouble if you publish a photo of another one
> of your fancy-top pancakes and try to blame it on my instructions.
>
> --
> Dicky

Pancakes indeed... LOL!

I only hope I can hand knead the dough well enough because I don't have
a stationary mixer. Got a hand mixer with dough hooks?

Other than that my starter almost likes to grow better a bit cooler than
85° F or I am just being impatient. Been almost 4 hours and it's only
doubled.

Mike

Mike

In article >,
says...
>
> Howdy,
>
> A few days ago, I took out a piece of one of my refrigerated
> storage starters, added equal weights of flour and water,
> put it aside at 80F, and left it for 12 hours.
>
> When I next looked at it, I was surprised at what I found:
>
> Rather than appearing "frothy" as it always had after this
> process, it seems "syrupy" in texture. That texture has
> always indicated to me that the gluten has completely
> degraded.
>
> There were a few bubbles visible, so some gas was being
> generated, but nothing near what I had come to expect. Also,
> what little gas was generated, seemed to bubble right out of
> the mixture rather than contributing to any increase in
> volume.
>
> Next, I tasted a bit of the mixture.
>
> It was quite sour.

<snip>

> Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have
> caused this to happen?

Yeah. Been there a few times. Experience is that wonderful human
ability to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

How long had it been since you last fed the starter?

How often, and how, do you usually feed it?

I found, the hard way, that when I left a starter unattended too long
bacteria that can produce lots of proteolytic enzymes take over the
culture. And they dissolve the proteins in the flour. You can add a
lot of flour and still have a weak dough in a hurry.

If your starter has a strong acetone/cheap fingernail polish remover
smell, that is another symptom.

Sadly, I have not been able to reliably rehabilitate a starter in that
condition. With lots of feeding, the bacteria that just eat starch take
over again, but it is a very tenuous thing. Skip a few feedings, and
the bad guys are back again. If this describes what is happening to
you, it is easier in the long run to discard the stuff and start (or
buy, or get from a friend, or get from the Friends of Carl, or whatever)
a new starter.

Mike

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:08:36 -0500, Mike Avery
> wrote:

>
>Sadly, I have not been able to reliably rehabilitate a starter in that
>condition. With lots of feeding, the bacteria that just eat starch take
>over again, but it is a very tenuous thing. Skip a few feedings, and
>the bad guys are back again. If this describes what is happening to
>you, it is easier in the long run to discard the stuff and start (or
>buy, or get from a friend, or get from the Friends of Carl, or whatever)
>a new starter.
>
>Mike

Hi Mike,

No off smells, so right now I am trying the cool
fermentation idea suggested by Will. I should know in 24
hours or so if I am having any luck with that method.

The good news is that I had recently sent some of the dried
Poilne starter to a few folks. I checked with them and two
have it in the original envelope and have offered to send it
back to me.

All the best, and thanks for your comments,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:46:30 -0500, "dan w"
> wrote:

> i think i will dry and freeze some of my starter in case it
>doesn't come back next time though.
>
>dan w
>

Hi Dan,

Freezing might not be the way to go for such a "backup."

That is because some of the lactobacilli may not survive
(though the yeasts are likely to.)

I would suggest drying instead.

It is my understanding that both types of critters are
likely to do well with that process.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

> No off smells, so right now I am trying the cool
> fermentation idea suggested by Will. I should know in 24
> hours or so if I am having any luck with that method.
>
> The good news is that I had recently sent some of the dried
> Poilne starter to a few folks. I checked with them and two
> have it in the original envelope and have offered to send it
> back to me.
>
> All the best, and thanks for your comments,
> --
> Kenneth

How did this turn out? Have you checked for signs of life yet?

Stacey

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:43:04 -0700 (PDT), Stacey
> wrote:

>> No off smells, so right now I am trying the cool
>> fermentation idea suggested by Will. I should know in 24
>> hours or so if I am having any luck with that method.
>>
>> The good news is that I had recently sent some of the dried
>> Poilne starter to a few folks. I checked with them and two
>> have it in the original envelope and have offered to send it
>> back to me.
>>
>> All the best, and thanks for your comments,
>> --
>> Kenneth
>
>How did this turn out? Have you checked for signs of life yet?
>
>Stacey

Hi Stacey,

I wrote to the kind people who sent the starter back to me,
but neglected to post here...

Yes, all is now well.

I have baked a number of times with the "returned" starter,
and am delighted to have it back.

Thanks for asking,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...
> ... I wrote to the kind people who sent the starter back to me,
> but neglected to post here... Yes, all is now well. I have
> baked a number of times with the "returned" starter, and
> am delighted to have it back.

No need for anxiety -- always can get a new start for a SASE.
www.carlsfriends.org