|
Odd storage starter problem...?
Howdy, A few days ago, I took out a piece of one of my refrigerated storage starters, added equal weights of flour and water, put it aside at 80F, and left it for 12 hours. When I next looked at it, I was surprised at what I found: Rather than appearing "frothy" as it always had after this process, it seems "syrupy" in texture. That texture has always indicated to me that the gluten has completely degraded. There were a few bubbles visible, so some gas was being generated, but nothing near what I had come to expect. Also, what little gas was generated, seemed to bubble right out of the mixture rather than contributing to any increase in volume. Next, I tasted a bit of the mixture. It was quite sour. I took some of the material in the container, and repeated the feeding, but had exactly the same result. I checked it several times over the course of the day to see if, at any point, there was any rise, but found none. I have repeated this process over the course of about five days with no change that I can see. It appears that the LB are alive and well, but that the yeasts are dormant, or dead. Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have caused this to happen? Sincere thanks, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Odd storage starter problem...?
"Kenneth" > wrote in message ... > [ ... ] > It appears that the LB are alive and well, but that the > yeasts are dormant, or dead. > Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have > caused this to happen? Yes, for fridge- and dried cultures, but never to the exent that continued culturing at usual temperatures did not bring back the yeast activity. It has been reported that the yeast do drop out upon culturing at high temperature (~100°F.). Years ago, one poster proposed this as a way to get very sour bread. Gaenzle's published data reflects the reason for these effects: http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616/F (Somebody kindly forward this post to Kenneth, as he has had me killfiled since the early times.) My take is that, at ordinary culturing temperatures, the yeast and the bacilli coordinate with one another as the result of some features of their symbiosis. In dough, however, my best guess is that the bacteria take over in the end, devouring the starving yeast for a last big contribution of sourdough flavors. Well, if the dough is strong and healthy enough to ferment that far before one starts mumbling about overproofedness... -- Dicky |
Odd storage starter problem...?
On Mar 25, 7:18 am, Kenneth > wrote:
> Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have > caused this to happen? I have managed to overheat starters in a crock pot water bath. Sometimes the remedy is to make a soft dough ball with some of the "soup" and let it rest 2 to 3 days at 50-55 F. Also... you might try a doughball with a bit of cooked oatmeal. The oats are a good buffer compound for your acidic situation. Not a lot of oats... maybe 20%. I think you have a decent chance of recovering. Will |
Odd storage starter problem...?
Hi Kenneth
by my calculations at that temperature the population is on average across the species doubling every hour and 25 minutes. That's from 1 12 for the fastest lb's to 1 45 for the yeast. So it looks to me as if you aren't feeding enough. Try taking a small amount and feeding about six times it's volume in water and enough flour to make your batter. Repeat that 12 hours later, then see how you go. (That feed isn't enough to maintain a healthy population at that temp but it will do to get it going without overpowering a sick population.) Jim On 25 Mar, 12:18, Kenneth > wrote: > Howdy, > > A few days ago, I took out a piece of one of my refrigerated > storage starters, added equal weights of flour and water, > put it aside at 80F, and left it for 12 hours. > > When I next looked at it, I was surprised at what I found: > > Rather than appearing "frothy" as it always had after this > process, it seems "syrupy" in texture. That texture has > always indicated to me that the gluten has completely > degraded. > > There were a few bubbles visible, so some gas was being > generated, but nothing near what I had come to expect. Also, > what little gas was generated, seemed to bubble right out of > the mixture rather than contributing to any increase in > volume. > > Next, I tasted a bit of the mixture. > > It was quite sour. > > I took some of the material in the container, and repeated > the feeding, but had exactly the same result. I checked it > several times over the course of the day to see if, at any > point, there was any rise, but found none. > > I have repeated this process over the course of about five > days with no change that I can see. > > It appears that the LB are alive and well, but that the > yeasts are dormant, or dead. > > Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have > caused this to happen? > > Sincere thanks, > -- > Kenneth > > If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Odd storage starter problem...?
"Will" > wrote in message ... > On Mar 25, 7:18 am, Kenneth > wrote: > > > Have any of you had similar experiences, and what might have > > caused this to happen? > > I have managed to overheat starters in a crock pot water bath. Oh, lordy, why would you wanna heat your starters in a crock pot? > Sometimes the remedy is to make a soft dough ball with some of the > "soup" and let it rest 2 to 3 days at 50-55 F. And then, after it is all rested up and cooled down, what? > Also... you might try a doughball with a bit of cooked oatmeal. > The oats are a good buffer compound for your acidic situation. Or drop some Tums, maybe? > I think you have a decent chance of recovering. Hope springs eternal ... Well, he is pretty old you know. Maybe older than me, even. You know, Will, Kenneth is a person who has devoted himself to the art of getting folks into a reasonable state of mind by means of skillful application of rhetorical inquiry. Although I'd like not to think so, I could quite easily assume you are attempting to frustrate his lofty effort. via the modus of ad absurdum logical development. And now you have have got ol' TG going (and me, of course). -- Dicky |
Odd storage starter problem...?
On Mar 25, 11:22 pm, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> Although I'd like not to think so, I could > quite easily assume you are attempting to frustrate his lofty effort. via the > modus of ad absurdum logical development. And now you have > have got ol' TG going (and me, of course). Well my tale goes like this... it's cold in Wisconsin. In the winter my house runs at 55 F during the day and 47 F at night. It's an old house and everything is plaster so ripping it apart to install insulation would be a real headache. I'd probably have to move, it might take a while. So I did the windows and then I opted for sweater- living. My neighbors are all in the same boat, old houses converted to NG from coal years ago. I suppose the difference is I know what's coming with respect to energy and they don't. Anyway, I've gotten used to it. My starters love it. They sit on the counter and mostly rest. When I want to make bread, which is often, I'll throw a piece of starter into a crock-pot with a bit of water and start the refreshment process. Sometimes I forget the pot is going. And then I have the problem. I've since moved to a big yogurt fermenter. It's a lot slower so if I forget completely the temp goes to about 110 F. Which is still too hot but I don't usually get distracted for that long. In the crock pot the temperature window is roughly 15 minutes. At 20 minutes you're hosed. Fortunately, despite lazy ways, I have gotten sharper. Working backwards, which is to say, heating water + flour + various cracked grains and then adding the starter during the cooling phase is much less error prone. That's what I do now. If I remember... In Kenneth's situation it looks like he ran the starter too long at 80 F. Could have been a feeding thing. His starter was more depleted than he realized at the beginning. Or maybe he didn't run it at 80 F. he ran it at 95 F. perhaps his thermostat is bad, or it might be a balance thing where he refreshed successfully over the last umpteen bake cycles but chilled his reserve before the populations rebalanced. Who knows? The soft dough ball thing has recovered my starter a few times. It's hard to kill a starter. Billions of critters and all. At least a few thousand survive underfeeding and over heating. Starter glop can be notoriously uneven in temperature distribution. And temperature drives critter cycles. So... I pull a little of the "endangered" material, make my dough ball, put it in the cellar where it's 50 F. and leave it alone. It usually self-restores. It seems to work a bit better if I add a bit of cooked cereal, like oatmeal or barley to buffer it. And no, you don't have to add cooked meal, you can add the raw stuff... but in Kenneth's case, we have a pedigreed starter, so de-crittered material: white flour and boiled cereal, are important considerations. If I could do it over, Dickie, I would have never been a Republican in my youth (arrrgh!) and I'd have a straw-bale house. Less energy, probably less sweater coverage too, but then I'd have to learn different starter sh*t and... we'd have yet another longish, rambling post. But I figured what the heck, it's been quiet here at RFS. The posts, for the most part, have been stupid lately (Viince excepted). Might as well burn a little bandwidth this morning. :-) Will |
Odd storage starter problem...?
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:35:35 -0700 (PDT), Will
> wrote: >In Kenneth's situation it looks like he ran the starter too long at 80 >F. Could have been a feeding thing. His starter was more depleted than >he realized at the beginning. Or maybe he didn't run it at 80 F. he >ran it at 95 F. perhaps his thermostat is bad, or it might be a >balance thing where he refreshed successfully over the last umpteen >bake cycles but chilled his reserve before the populations rebalanced. >Who knows? > >The soft dough ball thing has recovered my starter a few times. It's >hard to kill a starter. Billions of critters and all. At least a few >thousand survive underfeeding and over heating. Starter glop can be >notoriously uneven in temperature distribution. And temperature drives >critter cycles. So... I pull a little of the "endangered" material, >make my dough ball, put it in the cellar where it's 50 F. and leave it >alone. It usually self-restores. It seems to work a bit better if I >add a bit of cooked cereal, like oatmeal or barley to buffer it. And >no, you don't have to add cooked meal, you can add the raw stuff... >but in Kenneth's case, we have a pedigreed starter, so de-crittered >material: white flour and boiled cereal, are important >considerations. Hi Will, Nope... The problem that I am having was not caused by running it too warm. It had been perfectly fine, and I took some, added as much flour as I could, formed a very stiff ball, sealed it in a jar, and put it in the refrigerator. That's just what I have done for many years, but this time, when I next took out a piece of that storage starter, it did not come back properly. Hmmm. Reading your comments again, I see that I may have misinterpreted what you wrote: When I took the piece of storage starter and added water and flour to it, I did try to revive it at 80F (or, so, I don't recall exactly) but it did not increase at all in volume. That may be the stage at which you though I was "too warm" and you certainly may be correct. Since I read your suggestion, I have tried again at 55, but it has only been about 12 hours so I don't know much yet. I'll keep you posted. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Odd storage starter problem...?
"Will" > wrote in message ... > In Kenneth's situation it looks like he ran the starter too long at 80 > F. Could have been a feeding thing. His starter was more depleted than > he realized at the beginning. Or maybe he didn't run it at 80 F. he > ran it at 95 F. perhaps his thermostat is bad, or it might be a > balance thing where he refreshed successfully over the last umpteen > bake cycles but chilled his reserve before the populations rebalanced. > Who knows? Seems to me it must have died in the fridge. 80 F's, or even 95 F's for a while, should be entirely tolerable. It has been written (at r.f.s. I think) that it takes repeated culturing at >95 F's to drop the yeast out. (Did'ja know that ° is alt248?. Now everybody can write 95°F.!) Now there's a thought -- maybe Kenneth has a Celsius thermometer and does not know it. > If I could do it over, Dickie, I would have never been a Republican in > my youth (arrrgh!) and I'd have a straw-bale house. I would be a better terrorist, but then there was a dearth of role models. I did scarcely better than long-fuse cherry bombs in Republican mailboxes. > posts, for the most part, have been stupid lately (Viince excepted). Him??! He dunno even how to spell his own name! Well, he is a good fellow nontheless. He is not always trying to pry us out of ourselves with socratic interrogations like Kenneth does, for instance. -- Dicky |
Odd storage starter problem...?
"Kenneth" > wrote in message ... > [ ... ] > Since I read your suggestion, I have tried again at 55, but > it has only been about 12 hours so I don't know much yet. If your smart, Kenneth, you will just forget about all that and send away for a Carl's start. But, of course, you will not even read this because you have had me killfiled since history began. -- Dicky |
Odd storage starter problem...?
Dick Adams wrote:
> (Did'ja know that ° is alt248?. Now everybody can write 95°F.!) > Dicky > I am curious, what kind of a keyboard code are you running? alt248 has no effect on mine? Is it a Windoze thing? Oh, I am on hour 11 using your Billowy Sourdough Loaves © recipe. Stage one was exact at 10 hours on my counter at about 68 deg for a triple grow, stage 2 is in a pre-warmed oven to get the +/- 85 'deg'. Mike Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com |
Odd storage starter problem...?
"Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com... > I am curious, what kind of a keyboard code are you running? > alt248 has no effect on mine? Is it a Windoze thing? I guess that's what you call it, smart-ass! Let us know when you find out how to make a ° on your geek box. > Oh, I am on hour 11 using your Billowy Sourdough Loaves © recipe. Stage > one was exact at 10 hours on my counter at about 68 deg for a triple > grow, stage 2 is in a pre-warmed oven to get the +/- 85 'deg'. Yer gonna be in some real trouble if you publish a photo of another one of your fancy-top pancakes and try to blame it on my instructions. -- Dicky |
Odd storage starter problem...?
Dick Adams wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com... > Let us know when you find out how to make a ° on your geek box. > I have my oven at 85° F. No problem, I have to use a character map unless I want to do a bunch of programming to get Mozilla to automatically recognize them with hotkeys I believe. Not today... > > Yer gonna be in some real trouble if you publish a photo of another one > of your fancy-top pancakes and try to blame it on my instructions. > > -- > Dicky Pancakes indeed... LOL! I only hope I can hand knead the dough well enough because I don't have a stationary mixer. Got a hand mixer with dough hooks? Other than that my starter almost likes to grow better a bit cooler than 85° F or I am just being impatient. Been almost 4 hours and it's only doubled. Mike Mike |
Odd storage starter problem...?
|
Odd storage starter problem...?
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:08:36 -0500, Mike Avery
> wrote: > >Sadly, I have not been able to reliably rehabilitate a starter in that >condition. With lots of feeding, the bacteria that just eat starch take >over again, but it is a very tenuous thing. Skip a few feedings, and >the bad guys are back again. If this describes what is happening to >you, it is easier in the long run to discard the stuff and start (or >buy, or get from a friend, or get from the Friends of Carl, or whatever) >a new starter. > >Mike Hi Mike, No off smells, so right now I am trying the cool fermentation idea suggested by Will. I should know in 24 hours or so if I am having any luck with that method. The good news is that I had recently sent some of the dried Poilne starter to a few folks. I checked with them and two have it in the original envelope and have offered to send it back to me. All the best, and thanks for your comments, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Odd storage starter problem...?
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:46:30 -0500, "dan w"
> wrote: > i think i will dry and freeze some of my starter in case it >doesn't come back next time though. > >dan w > Hi Dan, Freezing might not be the way to go for such a "backup." That is because some of the lactobacilli may not survive (though the yeasts are likely to.) I would suggest drying instead. It is my understanding that both types of critters are likely to do well with that process. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Odd storage starter problem...?
> No off smells, so right now I am trying the cool
> fermentation idea suggested by Will. I should know in 24 > hours or so if I am having any luck with that method. > > The good news is that I had recently sent some of the dried > Poilne starter to a few folks. I checked with them and two > have it in the original envelope and have offered to send it > back to me. > > All the best, and thanks for your comments, > -- > Kenneth How did this turn out? Have you checked for signs of life yet? Stacey |
Odd storage starter problem...?
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:43:04 -0700 (PDT), Stacey
> wrote: >> No off smells, so right now I am trying the cool >> fermentation idea suggested by Will. I should know in 24 >> hours or so if I am having any luck with that method. >> >> The good news is that I had recently sent some of the dried >> Poilne starter to a few folks. I checked with them and two >> have it in the original envelope and have offered to send it >> back to me. >> >> All the best, and thanks for your comments, >> -- >> Kenneth > >How did this turn out? Have you checked for signs of life yet? > >Stacey Hi Stacey, I wrote to the kind people who sent the starter back to me, but neglected to post here... Yes, all is now well. I have baked a number of times with the "returned" starter, and am delighted to have it back. Thanks for asking, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Odd storage starter problem...?
"Kenneth" > wrote in message ... > ... I wrote to the kind people who sent the starter back to me, > but neglected to post here... Yes, all is now well. I have > baked a number of times with the "returned" starter, and > am delighted to have it back. No need for anxiety -- always can get a new start for a SASE. www.carlsfriends.org |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:40 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FoodBanter