I have been experimenting with some basic sourdough bread and have a few
questions for the experts. I have been following the SF sourdough recipe on
Samartha's website. I have also been using his rye starter. Here are some
observations and questions.

The starter is very sour to the taste. I like that and figure it should
make sour bread.

I first used the basic recipe 50% starter 100% Flour, 50 % water to make the
sponge (25 g, 50 g, 25 g). I fermented this at about 80 deg for 7 hours and
it puffed up nicely, with lots of holes in the start that I could see
through he plastic container. I generally refrigerate this overnight due to
time constraints. In the morning I continue with 20% starter, 100% flour,
60% water, 2% salt (100g, 500g, 300g, 10g). This I knead and let ferment
for about 9 hours at around 85 deg.

Here I have tried several things.
1) I often make round loaves in a basket with the dough rising in a towel
(for about 9 hours). Then I bake, maybe at 475 for 5 min (with water in a
pan for steam) and then turn down to 450 for another 20-30 min. This gives
nice bread, but not too sour. Not great on the holes

2) Round loaf baked at 400 with steam for 40-50 minutes. Fine loaf too.
Disappointing holes here too.

I just finished a loaf with more starter in the sponge (100% starter, 100%
flour, 50% water). Let sponge rise 7 hours. Fridge. Make dough, let rise
4-5 hours at 80-85 deg then Fridge for night. Next day I let it warm up and
rise for another 4-5 hours in a plastic bowl. It raised nicely. Then I
"gently" pealed it out of the bowl and onto some parchment and baked at 475
with steam for 5 min and 450 for 30 min. I had great oven spring, nice
holes. The texture was very chewy, nice crust. It might have been
underdone, the temp of the inside of the loaf was about 205 deg when I took
it out. It was certainly not overdone.

Questions:
1) I am trying to get nice holes. It seems to me it is better to bake at a
lower temp for longer to get better oven spring. Lower temp allows more
time for heat conduction to middle of loaf before curst forms and fixes the
size of the loaf. Comments?

2) trying to get more sour flavor. I think using more starter should help
since it is sour. I also think longer fermentation should help since the
sponge is pretty sour to the taste before I make the dough. Letting things
sit longer should allow appropriate growth.

3) is there a limit to the amount of start I can use? Why are the recipes
generally limited to maybe 50% starter and 100% flour? I could probably use
75 % starter 100% flour and no extra water to get a good sponge.

Thanks,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Please see a few quick comments inline below...


On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 09:23:31 -0400, "Dave Bazell" >
wrote:

>Questions:
>1) I am trying to get nice holes. It seems to me it is better to bake at a
>lower temp for longer to get better oven spring. Lower temp allows more
>time for heat conduction to middle of loaf before curst forms and fixes the
>size of the loaf. Comments?

I don't believe that the above is true short (perhaps) of a cold oven
start. When you put a loaf in a hot oven (even, say 100°F cooler than
you might ordinarily use) it skins over pretty quickly.


>
>2) trying to get more sour flavor. I think using more starter should help
>since it is sour. I also think longer fermentation should help since the
>sponge is pretty sour to the taste before I make the dough. Letting things
>sit longer should allow appropriate growth.


In my experience, the extent of sour in the final loaf related not to
the proportion of starter, but rather to the extent of the final
fermentation before the bake.

Also, the sour taste of the starter probably indicates that it has
fermented too long, that is, beyond the point at which it should have
been fed.


>
>3) is there a limit to the amount of start I can use? Why are the recipes
>generally limited to maybe 50% starter and 100% flour? I could probably use
>75 % starter 100% flour and no extra water to get a good sponge.

I have not found that limit, <g> and though I agree that published
recipes often seem to reflect the 50% proportion you mention, I have
no understanding of the reason.

And finally, about holes:

In my experience, increasing the hydration, and lowering the protein
level both increase the coarseness of the crumb (translating to
English "both increase the size of the holes.) Also, more kneading
leads to a finer crumb. In fact, for many of my "rustic" breads I do
not knead at all. I just mix the ingredients enough to assure that
there are no "pockets" of dry flour...

HTH,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Hi Kenneth,

> >2) trying to get more sour flavor. I think using more starter should
help
> >since it is sour. I also think longer fermentation should help since the
> >sponge is pretty sour to the taste before I make the dough. Letting
things
> >sit longer should allow appropriate growth.
>
>
> In my experience, the extent of sour in the final loaf related not to
> the proportion of starter, but rather to the extent of the final
> fermentation before the bake.
OK, I have read that too. How long can I ferment? I can keep the dough in
the fridge for several days probably. I will try that next. I can always
punch down if it rises too much.

> Also, the sour taste of the starter probably indicates that it has
> fermented too long, that is, beyond the point at which it should have
> been fed.
>
Hmm, that's interesting. I started this starter in early February and have
not fed it since then. I just take some out and add flour and water. It
does have a layer of hooch. It seems to work perfectly well though. A
little starter and flour and water perks up great. I will try refreshing it
a couple of times and then make some sponge and see what the results are
like.
>
> >
>
> In my experience, increasing the hydration, and lowering the protein
> level both increase the coarseness of the crumb (translating to
> English "both increase the size of the holes.) Also, more kneading
> leads to a finer crumb. In fact, for many of my "rustic" breads I do
> not knead at all. I just mix the ingredients enough to assure that
> there are no "pockets" of dry flour...
>
Great I will try less kneading.

> HTH,
>
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 4/7/04 10:43 AM, "Dave Bazell" > wrote:

> Hi Kenneth,
>
>>> 2) trying to get more sour flavor. I think using more starter should
> help
>>> since it is sour. I also think longer fermentation should help since the
>>> sponge is pretty sour to the taste before I make the dough. Letting
> things
>>> sit longer should allow appropriate growth.
>>
>>
>> In my experience, the extent of sour in the final loaf related not to
>> the proportion of starter, but rather to the extent of the final
>> fermentation before the bake.
> OK, I have read that too. How long can I ferment? I can keep the dough in
> the fridge for several days probably. I will try that next. I can always
> punch down if it rises too much.
>
>> Also, the sour taste of the starter probably indicates that it has
>> fermented too long, that is, beyond the point at which it should have
>> been fed.
>>
> Hmm, that's interesting. I started this starter in early February and have
> not fed it since then. I just take some out and add flour and water. It
> does have a layer of hooch. It seems to work perfectly well though. A
> little starter and flour and water perks up great. I will try refreshing it
> a couple of times and then make some sponge and see what the results are
> like.
>>
>>>
>>
>> In my experience, increasing the hydration, and lowering the protein
>> level both increase the coarseness of the crumb (translating to
>> English "both increase the size of the holes.) Also, more kneading
>> leads to a finer crumb. In fact, for many of my "rustic" breads I do
>> not knead at all. I just mix the ingredients enough to assure that
>> there are no "pockets" of dry flour...
>>
> Great I will try less kneading.
>
>> HTH,
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kenneth
>>

Dave,

Kenneth has given good advice above. I think good sourdough boils down to
two essential principles...

1) Use FRESH starter
2) bake AGED dough

In addition to Kenneth's suggestions I would offer the following.

1) Refresh your starter, building to about 800 grams at 100 hydration.
2) Take 600 grams and construct a mini loaf, very wet, 80% hydration. Let
sit at room temp 2 hours then refrigerate. If you build it dryer it's hard
to incorporate in step 4.
3) Continue your normal build the next day after again refreshing your 200g.
remainder.
4) Combine the regular build with the aged mini-loaf, adjust to get overall
hydration to about 68%. Age this combined result one day in refrigerator.
5) Let come to room temp, shape, proof for 4 to 6 hours. NO LONGER. Bake
HOT. Minimum 450 degrees.

This is an old baker's trick to leverage acidity without impacting typical
fermentation PH ranges (which you need for the big holes). You also need
major heat for the big holes. Heat creates more gas more quickly.

Sort of like with water: simmering water = small bubbles. boiling water =
large bubbles.

Will





>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:43:59 -0400, "Dave Bazell" >
wrote:

>Hi Kenneth,
>
>> >2) trying to get more sour flavor. I think using more starter should
>help
>> >since it is sour. I also think longer fermentation should help since the
>> >sponge is pretty sour to the taste before I make the dough. Letting
>things
>> >sit longer should allow appropriate growth.
>>
>>
>> In my experience, the extent of sour in the final loaf related not to
>> the proportion of starter, but rather to the extent of the final
>> fermentation before the bake.
>OK, I have read that too. How long can I ferment? I can keep the dough in
>the fridge for several days probably. I will try that next. I can always
>punch down if it rises too much.
>
>> Also, the sour taste of the starter probably indicates that it has
>> fermented too long, that is, beyond the point at which it should have
>> been fed.
>>
>Hmm, that's interesting. I started this starter in early February and have
>not fed it since then. I just take some out and add flour and water. It
>does have a layer of hooch. It seems to work perfectly well though. A
>little starter and flour and water perks up great. I will try refreshing it
>a couple of times and then make some sponge and see what the results are
>like.
>>
>> >
>>
>> In my experience, increasing the hydration, and lowering the protein
>> level both increase the coarseness of the crumb (translating to
>> English "both increase the size of the holes.) Also, more kneading
>> leads to a finer crumb. In fact, for many of my "rustic" breads I do
>> not knead at all. I just mix the ingredients enough to assure that
>> there are no "pockets" of dry flour...
>>
>Great I will try less kneading.
>
>> HTH,
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kenneth
>>
>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>

Hi again Dave,

In terms of "how long":

In a sense (for max sour) you want to ferment the final loaf to the
last moment before it collapses.

At the practical level, that may take a bit of experimentation (or a
reverse time machine...)

If you are doing pan loaves, watch them with care. When the loaf is at
the point that it is no longer rising (but before collapse) very
gently move it to the oven.

The fact that you have not fed the starter for months is a problem.
Not that anything will explode, but in the sense that you are baking
with an extremely weak starter. You are likely to be far better off
refreshing it several times before you use some of it to bake.
Remember that the key to sour bread is a lively healthy starter
together with long fermentation.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]

> And finally, about holes:

> In my experience, increasing the hydration, and lowering the protein
> level both increase the coarseness of the crumb (translating to
>English "both increase the size of the holes.) Also, more kneading
> leads to a finer crumb. In fact, for many of my "rustic" breads I do
> not knead at all. I just mix the ingredients enough to assure that
> there are no "pockets" of dry flour...

Hey, Kenneth, those "rustic" breads with big holes show up very
well on photos. For the non-photographically-inclined, the texture
of the crumb can be demonstrated very easily by means of a slice
scan. If you are worried about the glass platen in you scanner, you
can use an acetate sheet, or even some cling wrap, to keep it clean.
If you can't work with web space, you can send your photos to some
one here, like Samartha, for web posting, or, if you can figure out how =

to sign up, to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bread_Pictures/ .

There is a rumor going 'round that Will W. has some pictures
somewhere. Maybe we will see those pretty soon, what'd'ya think,
Will.? (Will also recommends to back off on the kneading, and has
graphic evidence that it works for him.)

There is another theory about the big holes, and that is that mid-rise
stretching and folding of a loose dough merges smaller bubbles.

My gut feeling is that good bubbles in dough need a well-developed
dough, in the same way the bubbles in soap solution need an excellent
soap solution. I have a secret hope that decent sourdough holes can
be had without the extreme measures which are usually prescribed, but
what do I know(?) -- so far the big holes have eluded me (except on some
cookie-sized loaves fried on an overheated masonry block).

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

Hi Kenneth,

Thanks for your comments. I refreshed my starter for one day and got it
very vigorous, continued refreshing and got it even more energetic. Then
made some bread according my standard recipe: I made a sponge that
fermented about 7 hours and then put it in the fridge overnight, made the
dough the next day (kneading only for about 5 minutes to get things mixed)
and let that ferment for about 8-9 hours, put in fridge overnight and baked
it the next day, after letting it warm.

I made two loaves, one with the one-day refresh and one with the two-day
refresh. The one-day refresh was notably more sour than "usual." Very nice
oven spring in spite of the dough being a bit cool. Great crust. The crumb
was just what I was looking for: lots of nice holes, chewy, rather
gelatinized, if that is the term. I was very happy with that loaf.

The second loaf just came out of the oven. It was made the same way as the
first, but with the two-day refreshment. The dough seemed more active, it
appeared to rise more. When I turned it out of the bowl in the morning
before baking, it kind of deflated, but then had great oven spring. I have
not cut it open yet, but can tell from the size of the baked loaf that it
expanded nicely and will have great holes. I will report on the sourness
later.

Thank you for your comments. I plan to make a loaf according to Will's
comments too, just haven't gotten there yet. I tend to prefer dense loaves,
very chewy, not like sandwich bread. The commercial loaves around here
(Washington, DC area) tend to be rather light inside, even if they have good
crusts. What do other people (like you) shoot for in terms of crumb
consistency?

Dave


"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:43:59 -0400, "Dave Bazell" >
> wrote:
>
> >Hi Kenneth,
> >
> >> >2) trying to get more sour flavor. I think using more starter should
> >help
> >> >since it is sour. I also think longer fermentation should help since
the
> >> >sponge is pretty sour to the taste before I make the dough. Letting
> >things
> >> >sit longer should allow appropriate growth.
> >>
> >>
> >> In my experience, the extent of sour in the final loaf related not to
> >> the proportion of starter, but rather to the extent of the final
> >> fermentation before the bake.
> >OK, I have read that too. How long can I ferment? I can keep the dough
in
> >the fridge for several days probably. I will try that next. I can
always
> >punch down if it rises too much.
> >
> >> Also, the sour taste of the starter probably indicates that it has
> >> fermented too long, that is, beyond the point at which it should have
> >> been fed.
> >>
> >Hmm, that's interesting. I started this starter in early February and
have
> >not fed it since then. I just take some out and add flour and water. It
> >does have a layer of hooch. It seems to work perfectly well though. A
> >little starter and flour and water perks up great. I will try refreshing
it
> >a couple of times and then make some sponge and see what the results are
> >like.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> In my experience, increasing the hydration, and lowering the protein
> >> level both increase the coarseness of the crumb (translating to
> >> English "both increase the size of the holes.) Also, more kneading
> >> leads to a finer crumb. In fact, for many of my "rustic" breads I do
> >> not knead at all. I just mix the ingredients enough to assure that
> >> there are no "pockets" of dry flour...
> >>
> >Great I will try less kneading.
> >
> >> HTH,
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kenneth
> >>
> >> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
> >
>
> Hi again Dave,
>
> In terms of "how long":
>
> In a sense (for max sour) you want to ferment the final loaf to the
> last moment before it collapses.
>
> At the practical level, that may take a bit of experimentation (or a
> reverse time machine...)
>
> If you are doing pan loaves, watch them with care. When the loaf is at
> the point that it is no longer rising (but before collapse) very
> gently move it to the oven.
>
> The fact that you have not fed the starter for months is a problem.
> Not that anything will explode, but in the sense that you are baking
> with an extremely weak starter. You are likely to be far better off
> refreshing it several times before you use some of it to bake.
> Remember that the key to sour bread is a lively healthy starter
> together with long fermentation.
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 11:19:15 -0400, "Dave Bazell" >
wrote:

>Thank you for your comments. I plan to make a loaf according to Will's
>comments too, just haven't gotten there yet. I tend to prefer dense loaves,
>very chewy, not like sandwich bread. The commercial loaves around here
>(Washington, DC area) tend to be rather light inside, even if they have good
>crusts. What do other people (like you) shoot for in terms of crumb
>consistency?
>
>Dave

Hi Dave,

The crumb that I shoot for depends on the type of bread I am baking...

Something like a ciabatta wants a crumb that is little more than a web
of huge bubbles. In contrast, the Poilne loaves that I did yesterday
are rather dense and chewy with a thick crust. I do a pain de mie that
has (at its best) a creamy white very uniform crumb of tiny holes.

So, for each of these (and many more) there are "ideals" that I might
try for.

In the world of beer brewing, they use the term "style" to convey that
same idea. So, a well brewed IPA has very different characteristics
than would a good stout.

'Same for our breads.

Please post the results of your Will Waller experiments!

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

OK, so what exactly does 100% hydration mean? If I combine 50g of water and
50 g of flour I get 50% hydration, by my calculations. I need 100% water to
get 100% hydration. What am I missing?

> In addition to Kenneth's suggestions I would offer the following.
>
> 1) Refresh your starter, building to about 800 grams at 100 hydration.

At 11:01 AM 4/12/2004, you wrote:
>OK, so what exactly does 100% hydration mean? If I combine 50g of water and
>50 g of flour I get 50% hydration, by my calculations. I need 100% water to
>get 100% hydration. What am I missing?

baker's %

http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughGlossary.html


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Thanks, Samartha. I should know that I need to look at your website before
I do anything.

Dave

"Samartha" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1081789810.10432.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com.
...
> At 11:01 AM 4/12/2004, you wrote:
> >OK, so what exactly does 100% hydration mean? If I combine 50g of water
and
> >50 g of flour I get 50% hydration, by my calculations. I need 100% water
to
> >get 100% hydration. What am I missing?
>
> baker's %
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughGlossary.html
>
>
> remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address
>

On 4/12/04 12:01 PM, "Dave Bazell" > wrote:

> OK, so what exactly does 100% hydration mean? If I combine 50g of water and
> 50 g of flour I get 50% hydration, by my calculations. I need 100% water to
> get 100% hydration. What am I missing?
>
>> In addition to Kenneth's suggestions I would offer the following.
>>
>> 1) Refresh your starter, building to about 800 grams at 100 hydration.
>
> Dave,

By convention we all operate suing a ratio system we call "baker's math".
Everything is weighed relative to the amount of flour used. So the flour
weight is always to denominator of the ratio.

800 grams of starter at 100% hydration is 400 grams of flour and 400 grams
of water.

400/400 = 100%

You get used to it very quickly.

Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

Hi Dave,

"Dave Bazell" > wrote in message
...
>>
> Questions:
> 1) I am trying to get nice holes. It seems to me it is better to bake at
a
> lower temp for longer to get better oven spring. Lower temp allows more
> time for heat conduction to middle of loaf before curst forms and fixes
the
> size of the loaf. Comments?

In my opinion, stay away from the cooler oven (anything below 450F). The
crust doesn't fix the shape of the loaf - rather, the crumb will burst out
if the crust tries to inhibit it. What matter is that you get lots of heat
into the center of the dough and expand the carbon-dioxide bubbles forming
in the crumb. Those bubbles form your crumb. The faster you heat those
bubbles, the more they will expand before the dough has a chance to cook.
All things within reason of course - don't heat your oven to 700F.

> 2) trying to get more sour flavor. I think using more starter should help
> since it is sour. I also think longer fermentation should help since the
> sponge is pretty sour to the taste before I make the dough. Letting
things
> sit longer should allow appropriate growth.

I stay at 30% starter - that seemed to be the general rule as I heard it
from my co-workers. You of course could add as much as 100% starter (a very
well educated baker friend of mine has thought about it). It would of course
depend on the hydration of the starter as to whether it would be more like a
poolish (a liguid or gooey starter) or a biga (a firm starter) - either way
they will add some acidity to the final product. However, they will also
shorter your rise times which could hurt potential crust flavor and
formation - I like warm rises - I only use cold rises with commercial yeast.
3 days in the fridge is too long - overnight will do all you need it to do.

Tom