Hi Kenneth,

Thanks for your comments. I refreshed my starter for one day and got it
very vigorous, continued refreshing and got it even more energetic. Then
made some bread according my standard recipe: I made a sponge that
fermented about 7 hours and then put it in the fridge overnight, made the
dough the next day (kneading only for about 5 minutes to get things mixed)
and let that ferment for about 8-9 hours, put in fridge overnight and baked
it the next day, after letting it warm.

I made two loaves, one with the one-day refresh and one with the two-day
refresh. The one-day refresh was notably more sour than "usual." Very nice
oven spring in spite of the dough being a bit cool. Great crust. The crumb
was just what I was looking for: lots of nice holes, chewy, rather
gelatinized, if that is the term. I was very happy with that loaf.

The second loaf just came out of the oven. It was made the same way as the
first, but with the two-day refreshment. The dough seemed more active, it
appeared to rise more. When I turned it out of the bowl in the morning
before baking, it kind of deflated, but then had great oven spring. I have
not cut it open yet, but can tell from the size of the baked loaf that it
expanded nicely and will have great holes. I will report on the sourness
later.

Thank you for your comments. I plan to make a loaf according to Will's
comments too, just haven't gotten there yet. I tend to prefer dense loaves,
very chewy, not like sandwich bread. The commercial loaves around here
(Washington, DC area) tend to be rather light inside, even if they have good
crusts. What do other people (like you) shoot for in terms of crumb
consistency?

Dave


"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:43:59 -0400, "Dave Bazell" >
> wrote:
>
> >Hi Kenneth,
> >
> >> >2) trying to get more sour flavor. I think using more starter should
> >help
> >> >since it is sour. I also think longer fermentation should help since
the
> >> >sponge is pretty sour to the taste before I make the dough. Letting
> >things
> >> >sit longer should allow appropriate growth.
> >>
> >>
> >> In my experience, the extent of sour in the final loaf related not to
> >> the proportion of starter, but rather to the extent of the final
> >> fermentation before the bake.
> >OK, I have read that too. How long can I ferment? I can keep the dough
in
> >the fridge for several days probably. I will try that next. I can
always
> >punch down if it rises too much.
> >
> >> Also, the sour taste of the starter probably indicates that it has
> >> fermented too long, that is, beyond the point at which it should have
> >> been fed.
> >>
> >Hmm, that's interesting. I started this starter in early February and
have
> >not fed it since then. I just take some out and add flour and water. It
> >does have a layer of hooch. It seems to work perfectly well though. A
> >little starter and flour and water perks up great. I will try refreshing
it
> >a couple of times and then make some sponge and see what the results are
> >like.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> In my experience, increasing the hydration, and lowering the protein
> >> level both increase the coarseness of the crumb (translating to
> >> English "both increase the size of the holes.) Also, more kneading
> >> leads to a finer crumb. In fact, for many of my "rustic" breads I do
> >> not knead at all. I just mix the ingredients enough to assure that
> >> there are no "pockets" of dry flour...
> >>
> >Great I will try less kneading.
> >
> >> HTH,
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kenneth
> >>
> >> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
> >
>
> Hi again Dave,
>
> In terms of "how long":
>
> In a sense (for max sour) you want to ferment the final loaf to the
> last moment before it collapses.
>
> At the practical level, that may take a bit of experimentation (or a
> reverse time machine...)
>
> If you are doing pan loaves, watch them with care. When the loaf is at
> the point that it is no longer rising (but before collapse) very
> gently move it to the oven.
>
> The fact that you have not fed the starter for months is a problem.
> Not that anything will explode, but in the sense that you are baking
> with an extremely weak starter. You are likely to be far better off
> refreshing it several times before you use some of it to bake.
> Remember that the key to sour bread is a lively healthy starter
> together with long fermentation.
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."