I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.

I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.

But then, I've never seen one in action.

Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
compare?

What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?

Thanks.

On Wed, 28 May 2008 06:06:11 -0700 (PDT), mkr5000 >
wrote:

>I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
>
>I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
>how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
>
>But then, I've never seen one in action.
>
>Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
>compare?
>
>What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?
>
I put kneading dough in the same category as washing floors: boring.

I use a food processor with the metal blade. Works like a charm. You
really do need to know something about the process of bread making
before you automate it that much though. I started off finishing it
up by hand, mainly because I didn't know the right look and feel of
decent dough. as I got better, the dough stayed longer in the FP
longer until now the only reason I touch it is for the final two
fingered doneness "test".

--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

mkr5000 wrote:
> I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
>
> I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
> how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
>
> But then, I've never seen one in action.
>
> Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
> compare?
>
> What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
Yes, the Kitchenaid stand mixer works for kneading bread dough; I've
been using mine for that purpose for quite a few years now and have been
pleased with the results.

I used to have a bread machine, but got rid of it when it started to
wear out and, since I was really only using it to mix and knead dough
anyway, it struck me as wasteful to replace it.

For comparative information, you might want to check out the Usenet
group alt.bread.recipes; there are lots of knowledgeable bread bakers
there who use a range of techniques ranging from no-knead to hand knead
to machine knead to bread machine for the full process.

sf wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 06:06:11 -0700 (PDT), mkr5000 >
> wrote:
>
>> I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
>>
>> I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
>> how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
>>
>> But then, I've never seen one in action.
>>
>> Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
>> compare?
>>
>> What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?
>>
> I put kneading dough in the same category as washing floors: boring.
>
> I use a food processor with the metal blade. Works like a charm. You
> really do need to know something about the process of bread making
> before you automate it that much though. I started off finishing it
> up by hand, mainly because I didn't know the right look and feel of
> decent dough. as I got better, the dough stayed longer in the FP
> longer until now the only reason I touch it is for the final two
> fingered doneness "test".
>

I use a kitchen aid and sometimes the food processor. I use the FP for
smaller doughs like pizza since it can handle only so much volume. I
make a sort of grilled flat bread on occasion which in the past I
kneaded by hand, but it comes out great in the mixer and it's easier on
my back.

Other than that, I don't make a lot of bread - but the DH has recently
decided he wants a bread machine - so...he ordered one on amazon the
other day. We'll see how that goes.

-Tracy

mkr5000 wrote:
> I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
>
> I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
> how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
>
> But then, I've never seen one in action.
>
> Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
> compare?
>
> What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?
>
> Thanks.

I have a lovely Kitchen Aide mixer that has a dough hook. I used it once
and was so frustrated because I couldn't get the dough to make the
little ball that feels just right to my hands. (I couldn't tell if the
dough had been kneaded enough)

Call me a Luddite, but there isn't any machine known to man or woman
that can produce as good a knead as my two little hands.

JMHO

--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

On Wed, 28 May 2008 21:54:06 -0500, Janet Wilder
> wrote:

>(I couldn't tell if the
>dough had been kneaded enough)

Hi Janet,

Have you experimented with bread doughs that have not been
kneaded at all?

It works well...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
...
mkr5000 wrote:
I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
But then, I've never seen one in action.
Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
compare?
What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?
*********************
I discovered that my KitchenAid mixer (has the crank to elevate the bowl)
kneads best when I allow the bowl to be about 1" from the top of where the
crank holds it. I have a little block of wood to hold the bowl in that
position. Then it cleans the entire bowl, and the dough doesn't climb the
hook. The kneading action is also good. Otherwise, the dough ball just
climbs the hook and spins.
.. . . . .With a tilt head mixer, maybe one could fashion a thin wedge to
hold the mixer head up a little.
*********************


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Wed, 28 May 2008 10:16:30 -0400, Tracy > wrote:

>Other than that, I don't make a lot of bread - but the DH has recently
>decided he wants a bread machine - so...he ordered one on amazon the
>other day. We'll see how that goes.

At one point I wanted a bread machine because a friend raved so much
about hers. So, I borrowed her machine.... bread book and all. Well,
I couldn't produce anything lighter than a brick and the loaves were
really, really UGLY. There wasn't a problem with my flour or my
yeast, it all boiled down to my bread machine karma. I spent quite a
bit of money learning a bread machine wasn't for me, but at least I
didn't buy a something I'd never use.

--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
...
> mkr5000 wrote:
>> I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
>>
>> I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
>> how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
>>
>> But then, I've never seen one in action.
>>
>> Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
>> compare?
>>
>> What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
> I have a lovely Kitchen Aide mixer that has a dough hook. I used it once
> and was so frustrated because I couldn't get the dough to make the little
> ball that feels just right to my hands. (I couldn't tell if the dough had
> been kneaded enough)
>
> Call me a Luddite, but there isn't any machine known to man or woman that
> can produce as good a knead as my two little hands.
>
> JMHO
>

Janet, what are you doing this Friday ?



> Janet Wilder
> Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
> Good Friends. Good Life

On Wed, 28 May 2008 21:54:06 -0500, Janet Wilder
> wrote:

>I have a lovely Kitchen Aide mixer that has a dough hook. I used it once
>and was so frustrated

Been using my KA for bread now going on fifteen years. YMDidV.

On Wed, 28 May 2008 06:06:11 -0700 (PDT), mkr5000
> wrote:

>I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.

Howdy,

Could you say something more about what you mean by
"enough?"

I ask because bread doughs actually don't have to be kneaded
at all.

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"mkr5000" > wrote in message
...
> I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
>
> I've never owned a Kitchen aid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
> how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
>
> But then, I've never seen one in action.
>
> Does it really work?

The dough hook causes the dough to stretch and "flop" which forms the gluten
necessary in a comparatively short period
Yes it works - very well I might add.


>How about bread machines? And how do they compare?

The bottom of the container contains a small flat blade that rotates and
that causes the dough in the dough ball to move. The action of the rotating
blade form the gluten in small amounts at a time. this is why the initial
mix on a bread machine will take ( depending on the size) from 15 to 30
minutes.


The Kitchen Aid works much faster but takes more time and attention.
>
> What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?

You have them both as far as home use is concerned.


--
Old Scoundrel

(AKA Dimitri)

On Wed, 28 May 2008 06:06:11 -0700 (PDT), mkr5000
> wrote:

>What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?

Howdy,

Put the ingredients in a bowl. Mix with a large spoon until
you see that there are no pockets of dry flour.

Then, cover it, and put the bowl in the refrigerator
overnight.

When you remove it, you will have a dough that is ready to
be risen, formed, and baked.

There is no need to knead bread dough.

Gluten forms three ways:

Mechanically (what we usually call kneading.)

Chemically (which you will understand if you read the label
of a packaged loaf of bread in the supermarket.)

Hydration (which is the method I have described. It is
slower than doing it mechanically, but it works just fine.)

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Mike wrote:

>>
>> Call me a Luddite, but there isn't any machine known to man or woman that
>> can produce as good a knead as my two little hands.
>>
>> JMHO
>>
>
> Janet, what are you doing this Friday ?

Making challah <g> I downloaded a video on how to do a 6 braid one and
I'm going to give it a try. We are having company for dinner; a local
family we like very much. The mom and dad are close to my age and their
son is 15. Their 19 year old daughter is spending the year in Israel
with Young Judea. We have an itinerant rabbi here and this weekend he's
in town so we'll have Shabbat dinner and go to services at 8 PM.

The dad doesn't eat meat, so I am planking a salmon side on an alder
plank over bulb onions. Probably will use a maple mustard or maple
ginger glaze. Making a green salad with raspberry vinegarette, cold
lentil salad and garlic asparagus to go with the fish. Will put the
asparagus on the grill with garlic and olive oil in a packet. Desert
will be home made lemon-lime granita with mint (from the garden)
garnish. DH has been kvetching for the granita. It's one of his
favorites. I put a bottle of Llano chenin blanc in the fridge.

I am praying that the twisted foot holds out. I will plant my knee on a
cushion on the step stool as Wayne has so kindly suggested.

--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

Billy wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 21:54:06 -0500, Janet Wilder
> > wrote:
>
>> I have a lovely Kitchen Aide mixer that has a dough hook. I used it once
>> and was so frustrated
>
> Been using my KA for bread now going on fifteen years. YMDidV.
>
Sure did! <g>

--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

Kenneth wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 06:06:11 -0700 (PDT), mkr5000
> > wrote:
>
>> I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
>
> Howdy,
>
> Could you say something more about what you mean by
> "enough?"
>
> I ask because bread doughs actually don't have to be kneaded
> at all.

Some don't, that's true. Some do require kneading to do that chemical
thing with the gluten. Sorry I fell asleep during the Alton Brown show
and can't remember what it is supposed to do to the gluten. <g>


--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

On Thu, 29 May 2008 17:46:49 -0500, Janet Wilder
> wrote:

>Some don't, that's true. Some do require kneading to do that chemical
>thing with the gluten. Sorry I fell asleep during the Alton Brown show
>and can't remember what it is supposed to do to the gluten. <g>
>

Hi Janet,

I posted somewhere else in this thread that there are three
ways of increasing the length of the gluten strands.
Kneading is one way, the there are two others.

I would be interested in knowing what sorts of bread you
think "require" kneading.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> On Thu, 29 May 2008 17:46:49 -0500, Janet Wilder
> > wrote:
>
>> Some don't, that's true. Some do require kneading to do that chemical
>> thing with the gluten. Sorry I fell asleep during the Alton Brown show
>> and can't remember what it is supposed to do to the gluten. <g>
>>
>
> Hi Janet,
>
> I posted somewhere else in this thread that there are three
> ways of increasing the length of the gluten strands.
> Kneading is one way, the there are two others.
>
> I would be interested in knowing what sorts of bread you
> think "require" kneading.
>
> All the best,

My challah does. French bread has to be kneaded hard and long for it to
have the right crumb and crust. I know that from experience (sigh). I
have tried one or two recipes for bread that got left in the fridge over
night. It was good, but the texture was not the same as kneaded bread. I
think that is what I didn't like about the bread machine. The texture
was missing something. Maybe the kneading does something to the texture?

--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:20:15 -0500, Janet Wilder
> wrote:

>French bread has to be kneaded hard and long for it to
>have the right crumb and crust.

Hi again,

There are (at very least) many dozens of "French bread" but
I don't know of any that have to be kneaded at all.

What characteristics do you believe would be lacking if we
were to develop the dough without kneading?

Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

theChas wrote:
> "Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
> ...
> mkr5000 wrote:
> I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
> I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
> how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
> But then, I've never seen one in action.
> Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
> compare?
> What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?
> *********************
> I discovered that my KitchenAid mixer (has the crank to elevate the
> bowl) kneads best when I allow the bowl to be about 1" from the top
> of where the crank holds it. I have a little block of wood to hold
> the bowl in that position. Then it cleans the entire bowl, and the
> dough doesn't climb the hook. The kneading action is also good.
> Otherwise, the dough ball just climbs the hook and spins.
> . . . . .With a tilt head mixer, maybe one could fashion a thin wedge
> to hold the mixer head up a little.
> *********************
>
There are screw adjustment directions in your manual so that the hook does
reach the bottom of the bowl. However, even when you think the dough is
just rotating on the hook, if you watch, you will see the dough go up and
then back down. Also, check your flour measurements for the recipe. Sounds
like your dough is too dry.
Janet

On May 28, 9:06*am, mkr5000 > wrote:
> I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
>
> I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
> how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
>
> But then, I've never seen one in action.

I've used a large Hobart mixer with a dough hook ( I think the recipe
made about 20 loaves of bread) and the dough hook worked beautifully.
I used to make bread on slow days so I'd toss the ingredients into the
mixing bowl, mix well and then just cover the bowl with a damp
cloth. When the dough had risen I'd turn on the machine for a momment
or so, and voilà, bread ready to go in to the pans.

Why it works I have no idea. It must have been a very demented person
who thought up the shape of a dough hook but they work just fine.

If I ever buy a home-sized mixer I'd definately want one with a dough
hook.

I've never had a loaf of bread from a breadmaker that was as good as
what I'd make by hand or with the Hobart.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

Kenneth wrote:
> On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:20:15 -0500, Janet Wilder
> > wrote:
>
>> French bread has to be kneaded hard and long for it to
>> have the right crumb and crust.
>
> Hi again,
>
> There are (at very least) many dozens of "French bread" but
> I don't know of any that have to be kneaded at all.
>
> What characteristics do you believe would be lacking if we
> were to develop the dough without kneading?
>

Texture, mostly.


--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
...
mkr5000 wrote:
I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
But then, I've never seen one in action.
Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
compare?
What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?
*********************
I discovered that my KitchenAid mixer (it has the crank to elevate the bowl)
kneads best when I allow the bowl to be about 1" down from the top of where
the
crank holds it normally. I have a little block of wood to hold the bowl in
that
position. Then it cleans the entire bowl, and the dough doesn't climb the
hook. The kneading action is then very good. Otherwise, the dough ball
just
climbs the hook and spins.
.. . . . .With a tilt head mixer, maybe one could fashion a thin wedge to
hold the mixer head up a little.
*********************


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Fri, 30 May 2008 09:45:17 -0500, Janet Wilder
> wrote:

>> What characteristics do you believe would be lacking if we
>> were to develop the dough without kneading?
>>
>
>Texture, mostly.

Hi Janet,

I am really curious about this...

How do you think the "texture" would change were you to make
the same bread with no kneading?

Thanks, as before,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
m...
> theChas wrote:
>> "Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> mkr5000 wrote:
>> I've always kneaded dough by hand but really don't ever do it enough.
>> I've never owned a Kitchenaid mixer or a bread machine and I don't see
>> how that dough hook attachment can actually knead dough.
>> But then, I've never seen one in action.
>> Does it really work? How about bread machines? And how do they
>> compare?
>> What are my options for "automatic" dough kneading?
>> *********************
>> I discovered that my KitchenAid mixer (has the crank to elevate the
>> bowl) kneads best when I allow the bowl to be about 1" from the top
>> of where the crank holds it. I have a little block of wood to hold
>> the bowl in that position. Then it cleans the entire bowl, and the
>> dough doesn't climb the hook. The kneading action is also good.
>> Otherwise, the dough ball just climbs the hook and spins.
>> . . . . .With a tilt head mixer, maybe one could fashion a thin wedge
>> to hold the mixer head up a little.
>> *********************
>>
> There are screw adjustment directions in your manual so that the hook does
> reach the bottom of the bowl. However, even when you think the dough is
> just rotating on the hook, if you watch, you will see the dough go up and
> then back down. Also, check your flour measurements for the recipe.
> Sounds like your dough is too dry.
> Janet

I agree with Janet, it sounds like your dough is too dry. When the dough is
just right in the KA it climbs the hook but it also flops over and forms two
"ears." Try adding just a tablespoon or two of water.

Ms P

<snip>
>> There are screw adjustment directions in your manual so that the hook
>> does reach the bottom of the bowl. However, even when you think the
>> dough is just rotating on the hook, if you watch, you will see the dough
>> go up and then back down. Also, check your flour measurements for the
>> recipe. Sounds like your dough is too dry.
>> Janet
>
> I agree with Janet, it sounds like your dough is too dry. When the dough
> is just right in the KA it climbs the hook but it also flops over and
> forms two "ears." Try adding just a tablespoon or two of water.
>
> Ms P
***********
Thanks, I have not been that impressed with my bread... I don't like the
texture and that drynessk could be the problem.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

theChas wrote:
> <snip>
>>> There are screw adjustment directions in your manual so that the hook
>>> does reach the bottom of the bowl. However, even when you think the
>>> dough is just rotating on the hook, if you watch, you will see the dough
>>> go up and then back down. Also, check your flour measurements for the
>>> recipe. Sounds like your dough is too dry.
>>> Janet
>> I agree with Janet, it sounds like your dough is too dry. When the dough
>> is just right in the KA it climbs the hook but it also flops over and
>> forms two "ears." Try adding just a tablespoon or two of water.
>>
>> Ms P
> ***********
> Thanks, I have not been that impressed with my bread... I don't like the
> texture and that dryness could be the problem.
>

That's just one more reason I like to knead by hand. I can feel if the
bread is too dry or too wet. I don't think I could tell if dough hooks
were doing the kneading for me.

--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

Janet Wilder wrote:
> Kenneth wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:20:15 -0500, Janet Wilder
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> French bread has to be kneaded hard and long for it to have the right
>>> crumb and crust.
>>
>> Hi again,
>>
>> There are (at very least) many dozens of "French bread" but
>> I don't know of any that have to be kneaded at all.
>>
>> What characteristics do you believe would be lacking if we
>> were to develop the dough without kneading?
>>
>
> Texture, mostly.
>
>

The texture on my no-knead bread is *wonderful*

Serene, datapointing

On Fri, 30 May 2008 23:29:10 -0500, Janet Wilder
> wrote:

>That's just one more reason I like to knead by hand. I can feel if the
>bread is too dry or too wet. I don't think I could tell if dough hooks
>were doing the kneading for me.

Good grief, Janet.... stop the machine and touch it every now and
then!

--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:34:28 -0700, Serene Vannoy
> wrote:

>Janet Wilder wrote:
>> Kenneth wrote:
>>> On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:20:15 -0500, Janet Wilder
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> French bread has to be kneaded hard and long for it to have the right
>>>> crumb and crust.
>>>
>>> Hi again,
>>>
>>> There are (at very least) many dozens of "French bread" but
>>> I don't know of any that have to be kneaded at all.
>>>
>>> What characteristics do you believe would be lacking if we
>>> were to develop the dough without kneading?
>>>
>>
>> Texture, mostly.
>>
>>
>
>The texture on my no-knead bread is *wonderful*
>
>Serene, datapointing

Hi Serene,

I am certainly not surprised...

It does seem that many folks knead for little reason other
than having done it before.

Of course, kneading does change the structure of the crumb,
but folks who have not tried other methods often do not know
of the differences it makes.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:34:28 -0700, Serene Vannoy
> > wrote:
>
>> Janet Wilder wrote:
>>> Kenneth wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:20:15 -0500, Janet Wilder
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> French bread has to be kneaded hard and long for it to have the right
>>>>> crumb and crust.
>>>> Hi again,
>>>>
>>>> There are (at very least) many dozens of "French bread" but
>>>> I don't know of any that have to be kneaded at all.
>>>>
>>>> What characteristics do you believe would be lacking if we
>>>> were to develop the dough without kneading?
>>>>
>>> Texture, mostly.
>>>
>>>
>> The texture on my no-knead bread is *wonderful*
>>
>> Serene, datapointing
>
> Hi Serene,
>
> I am certainly not surprised...
>
> It does seem that many folks knead for little reason other
> than having done it before.
>
> Of course, kneading does change the structure of the crumb,
> but folks who have not tried other methods often do not know
> of the differences it makes.
>
> All the best,

I may just be one of those folks, Kenneth.

I do remember giving my challah recipe to a friend. She complained that
hers didn't taste like mine. I asked her if she kneaded it for a full 5
minutes and she admitted that she was kneading it in the Cuisinart.

With all due respect to your methods, what works for me, works for me
and after making the same recipe for more years than I care to admit I'm
old, I'll stick with mine.



--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

On Sat, 31 May 2008 20:49:42 -0500, Janet Wilder
> wrote:

>I do remember giving my challah recipe to a friend. She complained that
>hers didn't taste like mine. I asked her if she kneaded it for a full 5
>minutes and she admitted that she was kneading it in the Cuisinart.
>
>With all due respect to your methods, what works for me, works for me
>and after making the same recipe for more years than I care to admit I'm
>old, I'll stick with mine.
>

Hi Janet,

I wrote nothing intended to convince you to change anything
in you own methods.

If something works for you, of course it makes sense to keep
doing it. (Though, in truth, that makes more sense provided
that you have also tried other methods, and prefer the
results of your initial method.)

My point was that you are suggesting to others that there is
some great significance to "sufficient" kneading, and, in my
opinion, (and based upon lots of experience) that is simply
not true.

There may be differences in taste, but those, I would
suggest, argue for the no-knead methods because they
typically slow down the fermentation, and with that, improve
flavors.

The more obvious difference is in the texture of the crumb.

Generally speaking, the more the kneading, the finer the
crumb, that is, the smaller the holes.

With no kneading, the crumb will typically be more coarse,
that is, will have bigger holes.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...

> Hi Janet,
>
> I wrote nothing intended to convince you to change anything
> in you own methods.
>
> If something works for you, of course it makes sense to keep
> doing it. (Though, in truth, that makes more sense provided
> that you have also tried other methods, and prefer the
> results of your initial method.)
>
> My point was that you are suggesting to others that there is
> some great significance to "sufficient" kneading, and, in my
> opinion, (and based upon lots of experience) that is simply
> not true.
>
> There may be differences in taste, but those, I would
> suggest, argue for the no-knead methods because they
> typically slow down the fermentation, and with that, improve
> flavors.
>
> The more obvious difference is in the texture of the crumb.
>
> Generally speaking, the more the kneading, the finer the
> crumb, that is, the smaller the holes.
>
> With no kneading, the crumb will typically be more coarse,
> that is, will have bigger holes.
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth


First you say there is no significant difference to kneading sufficiently
and not kneading sufficiently and then you turn around and admit the crumb
is significantly different.

If you don't want big holes in your bread you have to knead sufficiently.

Ms P

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:29:59 -0500, "Ms P"
> wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>
>> Hi Janet,
>>
>> I wrote nothing intended to convince you to change anything
>> in you own methods.
>>
>> If something works for you, of course it makes sense to keep
>> doing it. (Though, in truth, that makes more sense provided
>> that you have also tried other methods, and prefer the
>> results of your initial method.)
>>
>> My point was that you are suggesting to others that there is
>> some great significance to "sufficient" kneading, and, in my
>> opinion, (and based upon lots of experience) that is simply
>> not true.
>>
>> There may be differences in taste, but those, I would
>> suggest, argue for the no-knead methods because they
>> typically slow down the fermentation, and with that, improve
>> flavors.
>>
>> The more obvious difference is in the texture of the crumb.
>>
>> Generally speaking, the more the kneading, the finer the
>> crumb, that is, the smaller the holes.
>>
>> With no kneading, the crumb will typically be more coarse,
>> that is, will have bigger holes.
>>
>> All the best,
>> --
>> Kenneth
>
>
>First you say there is no significant difference to kneading sufficiently
>and not kneading sufficiently and then you turn around and admit the crumb
>is significantly different.
>
>If you don't want big holes in your bread you have to knead sufficiently.
>
>Ms P

Howdy,

Indeed, I left out a word, in error...

I should have said that there is no significant difference
in "taste" when kneading or not.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

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